EPTThis could all change of course if something really stupid happens, like someone accidently drops the mafia list or something.
Ace's Mafia World! - Page 52
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
This could all change of course if something really stupid happens, like someone accidently drops the mafia list or something. | ||
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Versatile
United States396 Posts
I'm going to look at it deeper. | ||
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Versatile
United States396 Posts
He made the most sense when he was running, and he had some good, and original plans. Caller, let's wait before that decision is made. There are only 4 or 5 of us online right, now definitely NOT enough for a consenus. | ||
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randombum
United States2378 Posts
Not that I'm saying giving caller all the roles is a bad thing, but we should at least be prudent and not give caller EVERYTHING so soon. I hope I'm just being paranoid. | ||
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Versatile
United States396 Posts
On November 19 2008 14:07 TruthBringer wrote: Sacrifice bodyguard. We need to be sure you are checked and it would be better to not have you checked 4 times. Caller your plan risks no one checking you and all of them checking you. There are multiple BGs for a reason. THIS IS DUMB. There are other ways to ensure he is not Mafia. You don't see the Mafia sacrifice a Capo or AoC for a green. Why would we sacrifice a Blue???? We're not in a position to sacrifice anyone!! Day 1 isn't even up yet. FURTHERMORE: How can we be sure MTF didn't give him a corrupted list? Everyone playing hasn't even posted in this thread yet. We could have inactive BGs. This is not a smart move for the town. Too many holes, too many chances for a serious eff up on our parts. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On November 19 2008 14:13 Versatile wrote: ALSO, WE NEED TO USE SOME OF VER'S PLANS. He made the most sense when he was running, and he had some good, and original plans. Caller, let's wait before that decision is made. There are only 4 or 5 of us online right, now definitely NOT enough for a consenus. i am using vers plans i think theyre pretty good maiself. i will hold off on this decision but this is a definite possibility, it being the bg plan. | ||
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Versatile
United States396 Posts
On November 19 2008 14:22 Caller wrote: i am using vers plans i think theyre pretty good maiself. i will hold off on this decision but this is a definite possibility, it being the bg plan. No, scarificing a BG is NOT part of the BG plan, wtf? The only time BGs should come under fire is IF the Mayor sends out a corrupted list. The first steps of the BG Plan are for the Mayor (in this case YOU Caller since MTF apparently passed off the responsiblity to you) to PM each BG with the identity of the rest of the BGs. Then the BGs should PM one another to verify the information sent to them by you. Has this taken place yet Caller? | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On November 19 2008 13:07 LucasWoJ wrote: Really? I was getting the opposite sentiment. I have a feeling that at least one of them is. Besides Caller, everyone's been extremely quiet. MTF hasn't been even telling us what we should do or what to expect (And he's the mayor for crying out loud!); Plexa's disappeared entirely (I guess to be fair, he's sleeping, but he didn't say much when he was on. I guess that's still unfair, but you get the point). Clazziquai has completely disappeared. Ver isn't saying much either. :/ A few things (summary at bottom): Firstly, I've been doing a lot of behind the scenes behavior analyzation and organizing vote lists. Also, silence right now doesn't really mean anything as the game is on hold. I don't know about MTF right now, could go either way. Definitely don't PM or trust him yet. Let him prove his own innocence. As for inspecting Caller and then pming to him first, and then doing MTF next, this makes great sense at several levels: First, Caller is much less likely a Godfather or Traitor than MTF. Thus it is very likely that we can be practically sure of his safety once he is rolechecked. MTF, on the other hand, has a significant (not that I think he is, but it is much much higher than 5% as it is for Caller). Thus, MTF is quite unknown even after rolechecked, and while very unfortunately, he ended up as Mayor and knows the bodyguards, if role info is still kept out of his hands until behavior is provable. Caller is on the other hand practically assured of innocence after a DT checks him. Caller ran for office before any roles were given. This gives a pure, no way around it, 4/84 probability (~5%) that he is godfather/traitor. That is very very low. For everyone else who ran for office afterwards, when roles influence decisions, Godfathers and Traitors would be MUCH more likely to run. Even though there are 5% of people undetectable, I would guess that there is a least a 50-75% chance of one of those 4/84 people running for office ONCE they know. Because a Godfather/Traitor in office is basically a free win, or a very very harsh start for the town, they will drastically raise the % of a Godfather/Traitor being elected to a very high percentage. Thus, for a candidate like MTF (or myself even), we would be much more likely to run if we were Godfather/Traitor than another role. Secondly, I've been working with Caller a lot. As someone who has been coming up with the most comprehensive plans for the town (and who none of the suspicious silent voters voted for office lol). I will say right now that the efforts he's helped me with both my bodyguard plan (no longer needed imo) and vote checking lists/behavior analyses have been far far above and beyond what even a Godfather or traitor would do to get people's trust (especially since I'm going to die asap anyway). Thirdly, the mass voting surge to MTF in SPITE of what Caller, MTF, myself, and everyone wanted points guilt away from Caller if anything. It doesn't really say anything definite about MTF, but certain suspicious people (who gave no reasons and ignored the wishes of everyone involved) clearly did not want Caller in Mayor OR wanted to throw unjust suspicion on MTF OR wanted to put MTF in Mayor. Thankfully, MTF helped cooperate with this, as seen below: Lastly, MTF said that he was going to take the backseat clue analyzation role here and leave the Mayor organizing role to Caller. He wanted to be pardonner in the first place to do clues: MTF On November 18 2008 16:46 MTF wrote: I will say this now, if I get Mayor, other than the double vote/double lynch ability, I will transfer the bodyguard knowledge to Caller upon getting Mayor and stay out of the planning after that. It would only serve to put me under great suspicion to assume a role that's coming out of nowhere for me, and it'd get in the way of my analyzing. MTF is MUCH more likely a Godfather/Traitor than Caller, because for Caller it's pure probability of about 5% (4/84), while MTF got his role before running and thus would be more influenced by it. Mafia want Godfather/Traitors to run rather than red mafia (AoC exception here) and with them at their disposal, It is very important that the town gets organized FAST. Because of 20 kills a day, many people, especially the active and helpful ones, will die off very fast. Thus it is very crucial that we are fully organized before the night comes. I made the revised bodyguard leader plan because I felt that even though godfathers/traitors are at 5% and that is a very low percentage, they would be extremely likely to run for mayor and thus there was a high percentage chance of one being in office. This is why we must not trust MTF yet. But we need to get things rolling ASAP, and thus Caller is the way to go (and MTF wants it that way). --------- Anyway I could care less about clues right now. Lynching on early clues has always led to failure (well besides that coincidental coffee clue that wasn't even meant for Decaf). Although Ace is different from Chuiu, if anything this helps my view. Considering Ace was mafia last game when Decaf got lynched on a super easy clue (or so they thought at the time), I doubt he will give us anything useful super early and we'll just end up with Ghar deaths where the person is 'implicated' by false early clues even though their behavior is 100% townyish. I'm sure things will come up, if not, there are several individuals so far who have shown blatantly bad behavior for the town to win already. Summary: -Get caller checked out, then pm roles to him asap. -Clues suck early. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
On November 19 2008 14:27 Versatile wrote: No, scarificing a BG is NOT part of the BG plan, wtf? The only time BGs should come under fire is IF the Mayor sends out a corrupted list. The first steps of the BG Plan are for the Mayor (in this case YOU Caller since MTF apparently passed off the responsiblity to you) to PM each BG with the identity of the rest of the BGs. Then the BGs should PM one another to verify the information sent to them by you. Has this taken place yet Caller? done and done | ||
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Versatile
United States396 Posts
I hope they're all active. I don't want you to say if they are in the thread, for fear of Mafia targeting them. Also, I do hope their silence means that MTF did not give you a corrupted list. My point was simply that we can't afford to sacrifice any towny so early on, unless it's for a very, very good reason. Especially a BG if you're innocent. If you're going to be our rallying point, you need to stay alive. | ||
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Ver
United States2186 Posts
1) Caller must get the validity of the bodyguards MTF sent him. This is obvious a must-have ASAP thing and I don't know if he has, or if they've responded yet, but this MUST happen FAST. We have breathing space here, let's make use of it. 2) Caller is using my work. I've done much with him so far. He's given me a lot of ideas I would never have thought of for my plans and would be going way way too far as any type of mafia to suggest. 3) Alternatively, if you guys think I'm trustable I can be the sacrifice for day 1. I say this because I will be killed first day unless a huge number of medics protect me and mafia skimp on hits so I'm dead either way. Of course, you can only trust me on behavior and if you don't or don't want to do this that is totally justifiable (And I would not reccomend it either, but it's a last resort option). I had 4 things but I forgot the last. I think Caller is like 99/1 town right now, just as I think Versatile is about 95/5 town purely from behavior. | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
On November 19 2008 07:24 Showtime! wrote: That isn't it at all, but nice try. Day 1 hasn't even begun, so it is too early to go into detail. It will take more time. haha ok, it was really just a shot in the dark based on what we were talking about at the time. you were being wonderfully vague anyhow. if there are any posts in this thread where the true intent is just way over my head, they belong to you. very smart, but also very cryptic. i guess i'll just be a good boy and wait for day 1 :p | ||
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Scaramanga
Australia8090 Posts
On November 19 2008 14:18 Versatile wrote: THIS IS DUMB. There are other ways to ensure he is not Mafia. You don't see the Mafia sacrifice a Capo or AoC for a green. Why would we sacrifice a Blue???? We're not in a position to sacrifice anyone!! Day 1 isn't even up yet. FURTHERMORE: How can we be sure MTF didn't give him a corrupted list? Everyone playing hasn't even posted in this thread yet. We could have inactive BGs. This is not a smart move for the town. Too many holes, too many chances for a serious eff up on our parts. Dude, if your not in favor of the plan your a mafia | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
man day 1 hasnt even started and there are 52 pages. what the fuck. | ||
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Versatile
United States396 Posts
On November 19 2008 14:55 Scaramanga wrote: Dude, if your not in favor of the plan your a mafia Oh....I said I wasn't in favor of the BG Plan? Really? I did? Please, quote where I said that. Don't worry.....I'll wait. | ||
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Caller
Poland8075 Posts
fighting only causes the mafia to gain strength and an advantage | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
On November 18 2008 04:56 Ver wrote: + Show Spoiler [Ace bg plan for reference] + On March 19 2008 00:45 Ace wrote: The Bodyguard Plan This is a strategy I've used in the past to win games, and it works very well if even a slight majority of the main players involved use it. The base of this plan lends itself to the fact that no innocent Townie knows for sure who else is innocent or what roles they are. Also is the fact that the main disadvantage the Town has is lack of information, whereas our main advantage is numbers. Combining these two things is the Bodyguard Plan. At the start of the game, the only non-Mafia/elected roles that any other player can possibly know for sure is a Bodyguard. The Mayor receives this info once elected into office. This plan is best with an innocent Mayor, but it also forces a Mafia Mayor to help the town in the event he/she is ever elected. When the Mayor is elected, their first plan of action should be to PM all the Bodyguards each other's identities. This pus information into the hands of the Townies that is critical. Assume there are 7 bodyguards. The Mayor PMs all of them the identity of the other 6. All of them then PM each other to 1: confirm they got a PM stating they are the bodyguard from the Mayor 2: make sure they ALL have the same list of Bodyguards In the case of an Innocent Mayor doing this, we have 7 townies all on the same side off the jump and this will be a major help to the Town if they all know the roles of 6 other innocents asap. In the case of a Mafia Mayor he could actually try and add a Mafia member to the list of Bodyguards or ignore a real Bodyguard - and this is where the true failsafe in the plan comes in. Failsafe: Remember, all Bodyguards SHOULD get that PM. If any of the Bodyguards don't get it then they should know something is clearly fishy and should investigate hastily. The Mayor would be investigated from Day 1, so the Town will know for sure if he/she is innocent or not which will allow the Bodyguards to know they can or can't trust the Mayor. If the Mayor turns out dirty, the Bodyguards will clearly speak up asap. If the Mayor is legit, then that Bodyguard list is 100% legit and ensures we have a solid base to start from. In summary the idea of this plan is self checking: 1.) The Bodyguards know they have to get a PM 2.) The Mayor knows they have to PM the Bodyguards the Bodyguard list 3.) The Bodyguards PM each other to check their lists 4.) The Mayor also knows that they will be investigated asap by a DT If the Mayor tends to be Mafia and releases a corrupted list, then the BGs will speak up and name the people on the list. The DTs paying attention to this, investigate the names. In the case of an innocent Mayor this 100% guarantees us safety, in the case of a Mafia Mayor it takes us at worst 2 days to clean up the mess. This is my plan of action to start the game off. In the event the list is released publicly, the best part of this plan is that the spotlight is taken off of the Detectives and put on the Bodyguards. This allows the Detectives to stay quiet, and for the Medics to have a list of people they need to watch. Remember what I stated earlier - the Town's main disadvantage is that we lack information and this plan serves to rectify that while maximizing our main advantage - numbers. Once the base has been formed (Mayors + Bodyguards) we can start generating a list of suspects together, and figuring out roles down the road. To succeed the Town needs a strong start, and this plan is one of such. I will be assuming that everyone has read this, as it is the core of whatever our strategy will be. First off, Plexa being mayor is NOT in the town's best interests as things stand (read previous posts). Indeed, him being pardonner is very questionable due to the potential of the AgentofChaos. At this point, we should be voting for the people who are making the most logical sense, not anyone who is trying to Fakesteve themselves into a position of power. Plexa has made one post with barely any substance and is looking to get in purely on past merit. The fact that he is trying for pardonner inherently makes him more suspicious than someone. Therefore I urge you to please reconsider your vote for him. MTF is even a more solid choice to be pardonner. This mafia game is going to be considerably more interesting and less mechanical, because there are a lot of holes that must be taken into consideration. It is quite possible that there are problems with my preliminary plan, because a) I'm in a hurry and just came up with it and b) I'm ridiculously overtired. So please please doublecheck it and give feedback. Okay, to start off my plan and thoughts, it is best that everyone work together to formulate a logical plan with the least holes possible. For those who don't want to read all this, just skim to the bottom where there's a brief summary. While individual people should be proposing their additions to the overall plan (posted above), as a town we should agree on a finalized version of the plan to hold the Mayor accountable to. Unlike the old game there is no hard verification (I'll go into this in a sec) of the Mayor's innocence or guilt. This means that we must hold the Mayor accountable to a set of actions and threaten to kill him if he deviates from this without very good reason. And as a town we should put together the most logical compilation of everyone's contributions. So if I or anyone else is leaving something out or has a hole in their reasoning, please please point it out (in public). This can be enough to root out any Mafia mayor's over time, but there is still the issue of information leaking. I will discuss this below. Here is the problem set to deal with in regards to the Mayor: First, there is the potential for a Godfather/traitor Mayor. This is the most obvious issue, and there are two ways to go about it: to hold them accountable to the plan and kill them if otherwise. This is risky, because we could be sending the Mafia key information (i,e roles or who really knows their stuff and needs to be killed). Thus, unless for some reason the Mayor can be virtually proven innocent (I don't see how that is possible, but just to keep in mind), we risk a substantial leak that goes far beyond the bodyguards if we want to have early central organization and authority. Bodyguard leader alternative Bodyguards are the only proven innocent privately class as a group. That is, all 5 bodyguards+mayor knows that those people are innocent without alerting to anyone else. The Mayor of course PMs the bodyguards who each other are as per the Ace plan, and they pm each other on the list to confirm it. Fake bodyguards are easily rooted out this way. I don't see this as much of an issue, especially as with 5+1 Mafia, each side will be loathe to sacrifice a member that is so easily rooted out. Now, this idea is to designate one of the bodyguards publically (after discussing it privately amongst the 6 and making sure everyone agrees and knows) as the person to send information to. This bodyguard then becomes the head spokesman of the town, and of course receives heavy protection. It is imperative that everyone send their roles to this person as soon as there is no debate over the bodyguard's validity. While it sucks having to use a BG be a spokesman, I don't see any way around this unless we can somehow trust the Mayor (we would want some other voices besides the Mayor anyway, so it's just the medics will be protecting a BG rather than a random outspoken person). He shares the information he received with the Mayor and the other bodyguards, and whoever else gets into the inner circle. They discuss plans, etc. Mayor finalizes, bodyguards hold Mayor to decision. However, the lead bodyguard does not share the identity of the information with the Mayor or anyone outside of the bodyguards. Thus, in case of a leak, at most the info lost is the town's plans. The identities of everyone are kept secret by the only proven innocent people. Note that this information can be spread amonst the Elders too (see backup plan below) once the Elders reveal their role to the bodyguard and prove it. I'll talk more about Godfather behavior in a later post. Secondly, there is the Agent of Chaos potential. I hadn't read closely earlier, but it appears the Agent of Chaos can detonate themself whenever. So if they are getting voted to be lynched...boom dead. The only way to block this would be with the other family's bone breaker disabling them and then lynching, but the other family gains more from the AoC than the latter's family, since getting rid of BGs early is a huge deal They will be seen by the detectives report, but there really seems to be no way of getting the Agent of Chaos dead before they can suicide. This also applies to Pardonner as well as Mayor. I don't see an way around this other than not electing an AoC, which is almost impossible to determine at this point in the game, as it is very very hard to discern anything of roles this early. Like someone else above, this makes me suspicious of Plexa, at least more so than the others. It's rather worrisome that he's getting so many votes. We do not want him to be Mayor as things stand, and pardonner is more risky than another candidate because of Plexa's peculiar wish to be pardonner and not mayor. This is why I made that statement above. Lastly, there is the problem of the traitor. Don't have time and not sure if I want to say this, so I'll leave it for later posts. In this game, where even the rolecheck and votecheck are not 100% certain (4/84 can bypass it), the bodyguard is one of two proven roles (and the only one privately proven; elder is public). Because it is quite possible that the 'inner circle' might be penetrated, we have to be very very careful about giving out BG identities. My idea is that only 1 bodyguard is revealed as the inner circle, and this person is heavily protected and does most of the speaking through. Or the Mayor/pardonner can do the speaking, but only the bodyguards (and elders) know who is who. It is important to spread this information to all the bgs/elders asap so that it doesn't die out too fast. The backup plan: In the case of the Mayor/Pardonnership getting compromised, either by a leak, a mafia officeholder, eventual bodyguard death, or an Agent of Chaos, here is the backup plan. Just like in Mafia 1, there is an Elder here. The Elder is the other unique role, for they can prove themselves innocent by showing their ability to vote twice. The Elder creates a natural 'mayor' type figure, although they are vulnerable. We have 3 elders, and clearly only 1 elder should be used as the 'spokesperson' at a time, which is from the moment they prove themselves publically and say 'send all your info to me' and death. The paramedics should be concentrating all their energies on saving the Elder, unless there is a clear detective/jack/vigi who is going to make a key play the next round, when they should split the protection. The most important thing for the town is to have someone to coordinate and assemble data. When one dies, the next one steps up. This should be a nice transition from the Mayor/pardonner phase, whether as an emergency or natural step. With 3 elders, this should last at minimum 3 days if not many more (depending on how many medics are alive and how much they have to protect). This will likely provide the town all the impetus it needs to set up the solid framework of vote checks and analyses to hunt down the remaining Mafia. Elders are a backup plan because they are low in number. Summary: -1 BG handles all the info from everyone after proven innocent etc. He shares the info with the inner circle but only proven innocent people (BGs and Elders initially) get the role info. The Mayor is much less important in this setup but the Mayor will still see plenty of action, because remember, the Mayor is in office because (hopefully hopefully) they are logical and clearheaded, while bodyguard is not a voluntary position. -Sorry I'm really in a hurry but want to make this before too much time passes. It's only preliminary, and I'll be on in a few hours anyways. I will make a followup post about offensive action (how to proceed once the initial position is sound), and likely behavior and what to expect (have 2 hr class now). | ||
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Infundibulum
United States2552 Posts
1) hold Mayor accountable to set of actions. if he does not comply without good reason, he will be killed. Since MTF designated Caller as "mayor" i am not sure who we are holding accountable here, and what these actions we want to hold him to even are. MTF did lynch mischief, but that proves nothing to his alignment. 2) Mayor PMs bodyguards, bodyguards PM each other. Caller said "done and done" a few posts up, so i am assuming this has taken place already (i hope). 3) Designated public BG is spokesperson, and also keeps to himself all roles claimed by others. these are only told to other BG's, not necessarily the mayor. elders recieve info later. BG spokesperson recieves heavy medic protection. this ideally keeps the critical data in the hands of only proven innocents. only ONE bg is revealed publicly. i am not sure where Ver's followup post about 'offensive action' is, but i'll look through the thread again. we do need to figure out some sort of offense, as this part of the plan only establishes a safety net that may not last more than a few game days. i'm not the best person to figure this out, but i will certainly try to help. | ||
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Scaramanga
Australia8090 Posts
On November 19 2008 14:59 Versatile wrote: Oh....I said I wasn't in favor of the BG Plan? Really? I did? Please, quote where I said that. Don't worry.....I'll wait. On November 19 2008 14:18 Versatile wrote: THIS IS DUMB. Owut, dude they have a plan, let them do it Edit: I didnt put the quote things in | ||
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TruthBringer
United States578 Posts
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