EPTI'll go through the thread again and check out what both you and Swallow have said; I'd obviously rather hit scum right off the bat, of course.
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Tracil
Australia505 Posts
I'll go through the thread again and check out what both you and Swallow have said; I'd obviously rather hit scum right off the bat, of course. | ||
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Tracil
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Townies pulling shit like that probably don't want to win and are harmful to the town as a whole. If we let jokes like that slide now, that can give mafioso free licence to make up stuff in the future and then pass it off as just being funny. I'm not prepared to simply let it go, and if you are both townies, then it should be an object lesson as to *why you shouldn't bull stunts like that*. And what is with this 'be wary of those who lead discussions' crap? If nobody tries to start a discussion or go anywhere, the town as a whole is not going to progress! Trying to dissuade people from talking is kinda suicidal. | ||
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As an aside, I'm trying to win this game, so, yeah. I will crack down just as hard on anyone else who comes out with stuff like that without a verrrrry good reason. Don't take it personally or anything. <-> Actually, though, mind outlining for me people who you think would make good targets to be lynched today? If we don't kill you or Shallow, who *do* we kill? Mostly directed at Dr. Dragoon, but anyone who thinks the case on him and Shallow is weak and shouldn't be followed should answer this question (and detail your answers, please.) | ||
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Tracil
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Secondly, *if I never try to kill anyone based on the fact that they *might* have a power role of some kind, then I will never be able to support any lynch*. Thirdly, we *cannot* just wait for more clues. The mafia gets a whole bunch of kills each night. We get hardly any; they *will* kill townies every night and each and every townie they kill might have a power role of some kind. Conversly, lynching has a chance of hitting mafia, one that can be refined with clues and verbal tells. Killing mafia is the only way we can win the game. Fourthly, by accusing people and threatening them with death, I can force them to actually speak, rather than continue to go 'hahaha lulz' and make jokes. They'll have to weigh in seriously on various issues and there'll be no way around that; if they refuse to participate, then they're not trying to win for town. Point the fifth; if we just sit around and adopt a strategy of 'wait and see', that will allow the mafia to dictate the pace of the game via their own kills. Later in the game, as well, we won't be able to go back and look at discussion that took place near the beginning to see if it has new relevance (e.g. did person x defend person y back then, even though it has now been shown that person y was mafia? were their reasons sound at that time?) | ||
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The mayor has the power to call double lynches- and he *should*- but the fact remains that the mafia get... what, seven kills to start? Town can pull two a day, tops? Vigilantes exist of course but they're a bit more random than the town (due to being left to their own devices) and they can't kill over the first night. | ||
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Tracil
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Frankly, I think you're abusing your position as a 'known' figure within TL.net to encourage people to vote for you without proposing a plan of action or outlining the logic on which you'll use the mayoral powers; in short, you're relying on a cult of personality to get you elected. Do you have any plans on who you will lynch if you are elected, and how will you use the ability to declare double-lynches? | ||
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If you think I'm being reckless, then consider this: If I pardoned someone you were voting for, would you not be *more* pissed off? We're a democracy, after all~ Only reason I'd pardon someone is if I become convinced the mayor is scum and abusing his extra votes, which I will have made abundantly clear before I do so. <-> As an aside, saying 'As mayor, I'll CLEAN UP' is not a policy, it's your goal. Do you have any plan at all? | ||
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I can see plenty of reason to be suspicious of you and still am myself. <-> @ Dr. Dragoon: I'm getting sick of this. What more evidence do I need? Shallow claimed to receive a message from you. The counterclaim is that he shopped it up as a joke, something to which I do not believe he has agreed. If I am wrong, link me to the relevant post. If not, then I can only conclude that *one* of you is lying, and your attitude thus far has left me thinking it is *more likely to be you*. *This is an attempt on someones part to force a mislynch. Why do we just let it slide?* Townies shouldn't be trying to pull that. | ||
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<-> Furthermore, it is not inconceivable that the mafia will argue against their comrades- in public. Remember that this is a *team* game. *Teams* win, not individuals. Therefore, sacrificing a mafioso in order to show that 'if I was mafia, I would never do that!' is patently false. It's a very common tactic. When we look at how people have voted and who they have lynched and such, we're looking at *why* their selected their targets; if the underlying logic is faulty, then they should be questioned on it- even if they were successful in their hit. | ||
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Honestly, pointing out that HE MIGHT BE MAFIA in response to any argument is painfully obvious and totally stupid. It feels more like an attempt to close discussion on a difficult topic, rather than to mobilize it. | ||
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![[image loading]](http://img184.imageshack.us/my.php?image=conversationiu0.jpg) Steve asks what I think of him, I tell him I'm going to only reply in the thread etc, then he asks *me* if *I* think I have something to hide? Why does he not question me publically? :/ I think it is likely that Steve is mafia. His first action as mayor was to lynch someone just for disagreeing with him (wtf) and voting for me instead; this person was quite rational and seemed to put thought into his posts, which is more than I can say for most. He's attempting to rule the town through fear with a 'no questioning my authority!' approach, which stifles discussion and is a blatant attempt to shield himself from the rightful suspicion that should fall on his lap. | ||
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On February 13 2008 14:22 JeeJee wrote: mafia doesn't get ahead by unreasonable things either. mafia gets ahead by putting up a reasonable front while conducting murder operations on the backend ;-) here's some more random accusations based on day one clues i have a precise list somewhere, but i'll do these from memory evan, there was something about joy, and his name stars with a phonetic e so depending on how you view iaagh... hotzhot, who else would talk down to his mafia members? he thinks he's such a hotshot doesn't he? more more more! this is fun  asdf YES the mafiso want to appear to be reasonable. NO that does NOT make being reasonable a sign that points to being mafia. What, we're all supposed to be unreasonable blind idiots? What are you actually implying here? I mean... you do think townies should be reasonable, right? Right. If you don't, well, there's something wrong with you. Random accusations are inferior to directed suspicion and questioning. All randomly accusing people begets is more random accusations, followed by this "I'm not mafia! You're attacking me- you must be mafia!" crap. | ||
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Tracil
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1) If you're not mafia, then you lead both citizens to accuse you, and it becomes possible for the actual mafia to use you as a scapegoat. You basically serve yourself up on a platter. 2) This actually sets a bad precedent, where this excuse becomes somewhat legitimate. For instance, if a mafia slips up, he can then argue that he likewise took a rash action to see 'who opposed and who didn't oppose me'. Also, you may have slipped up by saying 'if only the mafia know i'm in the mafia'. You meant 'not' in the mafia. These little tells may seem inconsequential. However, as I've said before, it's far more likely an actual mafioso makes a 'small' mistake like that than a townie. So. Yeah. I can understand, however, that a townie may think this is a strong opening strategy, and this has actually gone some way in lessening my suspicion. I wouldn't accept this out of someone who had claimed to play mafia in the past, for instance. | ||
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the townies still have no idea whether or not i'm in the mafia, but the mafia know for sure. Killing me is a no-win situation if you don't know for sure whether or not i'm a mobster. however, killing other mob members benefits you no matter what What? We don't know for sure whether or not you're a mobster. However, that does not make killing you a no-win situation, because you may still be one. And, as usual, this is a position that can be attributed to any lynch ever pretty much (we're not SURE he's mafia. We're virtually never going to be 100% sure.) <-> A lot of people, particularly the accused, say "But if you kill me and I'm NOT mafia, then you look like a moron. I would put it to you that it's the accused who have done stupid things that make them look like mafia. In part, they are responsible for their own image. Do not let people saying 'but if you lynch me, you might die/look like an idiot/the sky might fall on you' and arguments such as those dissuade you. These are not rebuttals, but appeals to pride and fear. | ||
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<-> Dr. Dragoon... seriously. How can I come to any conclusion but 'one of Dragoon and Shallow is scum'? If you flip town, I fully intend to persue Shallow. But... well. Falcynn Said Not entirely true, Shallows picture depicted you as being careless and being a bit foolish. So by trying to act like an oaf after Shallows post, many people probably began to suspect that there's a good chance that you really did send the PM. I actually do believe that people would've jumped on the bandwagon and accused you anyways, but if you would've tried to be more casual you might've had a better chance of getting away. That puts it best, really, as to why I think you're a better bet than Shallow. Man, think about how you'd react if it was someone else in that PM box. Someone you didn't know for sure was an alignment either way. I would have had a lot more respect for your arguments if they weren't punctuated with insults. | ||
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On February 13 2008 16:42 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: you don't need to know when i'll use the double lynches rest assured i'll use them appropriately to accomplish my own goals, but as long as you don't know what those goals are i'm unkillable the only people who do know for sure what those goals are, are mafia Wait. Your goals are secret. Townies do not know your goals. However, the mafia does. Uh, the only reason the mafia would know what your goals are and townies wouldn't would be.. because.. you.. are.. mafia and colluding with them. Also, should your goals not be the same as everyone elses, i.e. *killing scum*? 'Unkillable' my ass, I'm voting for you as soon as day breaks. It's not worth leaving you in a position of power if you're going to rely entirely on your rank to keep you above the rope, and then rely on voodoo bullshit 'secret' plans to supposedly out the mafia. | ||
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I'll wait and see for now, I guess; I want to find out who dies overnight before rattling off other thoughts on the thread. I admit I'm being a bit overzealous on the 'don't keep secrets' front, apologies for that, there are good reasons to at times, even for town. | ||
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However, if I think he is acting in a scummy fashion, I will call him out on it. It's not like I haven't had reasons to be suspicious. I think everyone ignores the fact that I have reasons to act the way I do, and just goes 'oh no Tracil is trying to get people lynched'. I'm making educated guesses. Please try to understand. We should all understand that we will never be totally sure whether or not someone is mafia barring detectives finding something out (which, by the by, we cannot count or rely on actually happening.) Despite that, I am not going to make arguments and clarify each and every one with 'but I might be wrong' or any of that. When I make assertations, it's because I believe them, and I'm trying to get other people to understand why. | ||
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