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On March 11 2018 07:29 Holyflare wrote:
What alignment of players tries to manipulate the thread to annoy people and divert attention away from things? Why are you not just attributing that alignment to us?
Pretty sure I just explained that, before you asked. There are 2 of you doing it, and at least one of you has to be Town. Alakaslam seems more the type to just not have any idea what he's talking about than you, so it looks worse for you than him, but the fact that there are 2 of you doing it and at least one of you has to be Town, means it necessarily has to be a mistake that a town player can make.
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Thanks for all your contributions, Kelsier...
On March 11 2018 07:58 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2018 07:43 n00bKing wrote:
It is what mafia surely do. And you can surely be mafia. But there were 2 other good lynch targets today, and your posting didn't become increasingly scummy until late enough in the day that I don't believe it would still be possible to get you in the noose at this point.
If Kelsier flips town, I will be explaining to everyone what makes your Day 2 posting so scummy. But I'm not going to bother with it for now, because if Kelsier flips Red, it doesn't matter what all of the Mafia motivations behind your posts can be, because you'll be town even DESPITE the way you've behaved. So I'm really hoping Kelsier flips red, because it'll save me a lot of work, and I can wait until post-game to tell you why your reasoning is so awful. So your mafia team is me and holyflare right?
No, Moosy. No, my mafia team is not you and Holyflare. But with Kelsier flipping town, my mafia team now definitely has you OR Holyflare, and you're going to be the only targets I will entertain for the medics to kill tonight. And if Holyflare can provide the right answers to my questions...it'll just be you.
NO ONE buy into this garbage where HF says he's already figured out the non-medic mafia and it's Koshi. We should NOT kill Koshi. Damdred felt town to me, Koshi even moreso.
By the way, Moosy, I've seen you play both allegiances before, and this right here:
On March 11 2018 06:31 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Also let's calm down with the insults and flinging dirt at each other people. Its just a gaem at the end of the day whether people dont play optimally or not.
is NOT what I remember from Town Moosy. No one flings dirt and insults like Town Moosy. This "can't we all just get along?" stuff is NOT your Town meta. So I can add a meta read against you to the association case against you.
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On March 11 2018 08:08 rsoultin wrote:
The way I see it, we vig shot into one of
Me
HF
Koshi
Moosy
Slam
Yeah, of course. We vig shot into the non-medics for all of the same reasons we lynch into the non-medics. It's the same thing.
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Alright, HF, let's start here:
On March 10 2018 21:14 Holyflare wrote:
I believe vivax and ff are the true medics. I think vivax should heal df and ff heal noob. The real medic of noob and df should heal the other one. Easy free mafia nk.
Please summarize the information you gained from gauging reactions to this post.
Or did you not gain any information from those reactions and it didn't work?
Or do you truly believe this is the best course of action?
And no more gamesmanship, please. We don't need fancy schemes to win this game. ABC, paint-by-numbers town play WILL succeed. So if you're Town, please just tell the honest truth here, even if you think it would be more "fun" or "interesting" to do things another way.
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On March 11 2018 08:18 MoosyDoosy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2018 08:11 n00bKing wrote:By the way, Moosy, I've seen you play both allegiances before, and this right here: On March 11 2018 06:31 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Also let's calm down with the insults and flinging dirt at each other people. Its just a gaem at the end of the day whether people dont play optimally or not. is NOT what I remember from Town Moosy. No one flings dirt and insults like Town Moosy. This "can't we all just get along?" stuff is NOT your Town meta. So I can add a meta read against you to the association case against you. That's because I'm r e f o r m e d dude. After thinking about all the times I got mad during this game I've decided it's not worth it. It's also why I'm trying to troll a little less because people got mad over it and I don't want to ruin people's days that way. It sucks to try and play the game and have to deal with someone's shit.
And did you troll just as much, and ruin people's day, in games where you were mafia? Before you were "reformed?"
Wait, hold up, I know EXACTLY the right thing to do here.
Pay attention, Alakaslam, because the BEST play to make here is for me to ask....
"wat everyone else think?"
Has Town Moosy been reformed, and quit trolling in his town games? Did Scum Moosy troll just like Town Moosy, before he was "reformed" or no? And instead, he was more controlled/polite?
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Solving Game. Please stand by.
![[image loading]](http://www.catswhocode.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/pure-css3-progress-bar.jpg)
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On March 11 2018 08:35 rsoultin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2018 08:25 n00bKing wrote:On March 11 2018 08:18 MoosyDoosy wrote:On March 11 2018 08:11 n00bKing wrote:By the way, Moosy, I've seen you play both allegiances before, and this right here: On March 11 2018 06:31 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Also let's calm down with the insults and flinging dirt at each other people. Its just a gaem at the end of the day whether people dont play optimally or not. is NOT what I remember from Town Moosy. No one flings dirt and insults like Town Moosy. This "can't we all just get along?" stuff is NOT your Town meta. So I can add a meta read against you to the association case against you. That's because I'm r e f o r m e d dude. After thinking about all the times I got mad during this game I've decided it's not worth it. It's also why I'm trying to troll a little less because people got mad over it and I don't want to ruin people's days that way. It sucks to try and play the game and have to deal with someone's shit. And did you troll just as much, and ruin people's day, in games where you were mafia? Before you were "reformed?" Wait, hold up, I know EXACTLY the right thing to do here. Pay attention, Alakaslam, because the BEST play to make here is for me to ask.... "wat everyone else think?" Has Town Moosy been reformed, and quit trolling in his town games? Did Scum Moosy troll just like Town Moosy, before he was "reformed" or no? And instead, he was more controlled/polite? I don't think he's played in awhile. But you can find out just by looking in his profile -shrugs-
I'm familiar with 4 or 5 of his games, but didn't want to have to go trudging through others, if there had been any sort of agreement (even just 2 players would have been meaningful, since he can't have 2 scummates left) about "yes, it's true, Town Moosy has reformed and is not as trolly and inflammatory as he used to be" or "no, he was still like that, even in the most recent of his town games." Feels like you and I have had to do like 70% of the heavy lifting in this game, so it wouldn't been nice to get a hand with something, and be able to skip expanding the meta read. But oh well. I did look into some of the later games. Conclusions forthcoming shortly.
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On March 11 2018 09:56 darthfoley wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2018 14:18 n00bKing wrote:On March 08 2018 07:13 Vivax wrote:On March 08 2018 07:10 n00bKing wrote:Ok, I'm off. On March 08 2018 06:32 n00bKing wrote:
Does anyone agree with HF's assessment of DF's play in other games?
Didn't see any backup on this, but to my eyes, the DF lynch doesn't thrill me. The push on Tubesock has been going for a long time, without much result, so I guess it's not happening today. ##UnvoteWould love to see this happen: ##Vote: KelsierSC Why him over prpl? ...huh? Because Kelsier was a no-show (in the game thread at least) and prpl wasn't. You act like one vs. the other is an equivalent choice. It's not. If people want to make a big deal over this, I can explain further. But I would have thought that the reasons why you lynch a literal no-show (like Kelsier or chaoser) over someone who makes a few posts and then bails for the rest of the Phase (like prpl or damdred) were fairly obvious. Rereading this, it feels very paranoid and self aware. Vivax asks him a simple question "why KSC > Prplhz" with no real agenda, and n00bking preemptively defends agaainst people making a "big deal" out of it.
That wasn't a simple question with no real agenda. He quickly followed that post by voting against me, and then brought it up again as a reason to kill me, later. It wasn't an idle inquiry that I overreacted to, it was an attack.
If I had been "paranoid" I would have just given the longer explanation immediately, instead of saying I would explain further if asked to. If people went and looked at my prior thoughts on no-shows vs. low-activity players and said "yeah, okay, that does make sense" (which is what I expected, since my swap from Tubesock to Kelsier was a pretty straightforward move) then I wouldn't have wasted any more time on it. Since someone did make a big deal out of it, I went ahead and gave the longer explanation.
On March 11 2018 09:56 darthfoley wrote:
For tonight, i'm fine vigi healing Slam.
No likey. I understand you saying he'll be tough to read, but I don't think he's presently any scummier than the baseline. The kill should be either Moosy or HF, as I'll explain.
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Mafiosa Moosy
The association case tying Moosy to prpl I think has been covered pretty well. I've also mentioned that I didn't like how he used Damdred's absence as an excuse to not vote through much of D1, after having to abandon his scumread on rsoul, and that I didn't like how he never put forth a vig target for N1 until I had to directly ask him for it. It's also been mentioned that he took no position on whether to mass claim.
As for the meta read:
I've said that in the games I've seen Town Moosy, he would never have said anything like this:
On March 11 2018 06:31 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Also let's calm down with the insults and flinging dirt at each other people. Its just a gaem at the end of the day whether people dont play optimally or not.
because he was himself the worst offender. He's been mod-killed (as town) for going too far with insults against other players.
He claims he's been reformed. But I think it's significant that scum Moosy never *needed* to be reformed. Scum Moosy already exhibited the "kumbaya" mentality seen in the post I just quoted. When I look back at the last time I saw him play scum, I don't even have to get past the 2nd page to see him starting telling people to "calm down" and asking players that he's townreading to not get into fights with each other.
If Moosy has become more serious-minded and respectful in his more recent town games, there's some subtlety in how far the shift went. He still claimed Mafia, in his last 3 town games. The most recent time he was lynched as town, he responded to the pressure by calling the posts of the other players stupid and ridiculous, and telling multiple players they fail at reading comprehension. Ever the good teammate, he says that if they expect him to care about the game, those expectations are dumb. And that he does what he wants, whether they like it or not. Yes, he looks somewhat reformed, compared with when I saw him ask another player for their address so he could show up at their home and kill them. But the Town Moosy I just went and read right now still looks more sardonic than the Moosy I saw when I watched him play scum, and the Moosy who posted the above quote.
These games are still quite a while ago, so it's possible that he was "reformed" after that...but there's no way for us to verify it. We'd just be taking his word for it.
And his N2 is not off to a great start, as he immediately offers the anti-town suggestion of taking a vig shot into the medic pool.
If Moosy is the Mafioso, I think the Mafia Medic would be darthfoley.
I've tried to reason out why Moosy (who we know was here at EoD) would not have just shoved DF into the noose, if he's a town medic. And I put forth theories like "maybe Moosy just literally didn't see the medic claim" or "maybe Moosy just didn't realize that the medic claim gives him a free pass to lynch DF." But no explanation is needed, if DF just....isn't a town medic, and is the mafia medic instead.
We then don't need any help figuring out the motivation behind posts like:
On March 08 2018 07:45 MoosyDoosy wrote:
I'm not quite sure if I see what Holyflare is seeing about darthfoley.
or
On March 08 2018 07:47 MoosyDoosy wrote:
I'm down with shenannies onto prp, darth. Preferred is Tube. I still don't see how he isn't scummy.
He'll lynch either of his teammates if he has to, but would prefer not to. Even just referring to a lynch of prpl or DF as "shenannies" could be meant to influence people into thinking (consciously or otherwise) that a lynch on either of those players represents a NON-logical choice. Meanwhile, DF puts a vote on prpl, since they would rather lose prpl than DF if it comes down to it, since prpl wasn't playing. Things are set up so that both of them can try to get at least a *little* bit of credit out of it, if prpl eats the Noose. I would NOT normally expect scum to resort to bussing on Day 1, but prpl's inactivity kept this from being "normal" circumstances.
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On March 11 2018 13:49 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Noobking you are the last person i would also expect to devote a significant portion of their argument against a player to meta. Damdred? Sure. Rsoultin? Probably. You? Hmmmmm
I've played with (and/or read games involving) several of the people in this game before. But probably most, with you. I hadn't planned to use a meta argument in this game, but if I decide there's one to be made? It would be a mistake to not at least bring it up. If people discount my meta read, that's their choice. But at least I've given them the choice, instead of not telling everyone what I thought I saw.
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On March 11 2018 13:55 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Also if ur an expert on my meta you should know that I do use a person I read as town or someone I'm trying to get a better grasp on by ping ponging stuff off of them. Pretty sure I've done that in all my town games. The fact that you seem to scumread me for doing this with damdred while simultaneously being an expert on my meta otherwise is a real thonker.
I wouldn't think it's scum-indicative at all, for you to ping-pong stuff off of Damdred. It's only suspicious that when you couldn't ping-pong stuff off of him, you chose to do NOTHING, for so long.
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On March 11 2018 13:58 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Honestly i still feel no pressure from you dude. Carry on I guess.
Cool bro. If I put the needle in your throat tonight, I'll double-check and see if you "felt" that.
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Mafiosa Holyflare
If the Mafiosa is Holyflare, his partner is not DF, but instead either Vivax or FF. Fake-claimed medic as mafiosa, but then rescinded the claim at the start of Day 2 for NO...REASON. The fake claim can continue to have value if he's town. There would be no way for the scum team to know that the claim had been fake, because instead of saying "I'm not a medic" he could just say "I actually targeted prpl after all, I just wanted them to think I wouldn't." There's scum motivation to rescind the fake-claim though, if he's afraid of the mass claim going down, and thinks that switching his claim to VT *before* the mass claim will be less likely to get him lynched than not switching his claim to VT *until* the mass claim.
He was asked why he rescinded the claim at the start of day 2, and I didn't see an answer. I brought it back up again, and still didn't see an answer. Because there is NO reason for Town HF to admit it was a fake claim in that spot. It sabotages his OWN play, if he's town.
Throughout the entire game, he shows a pattern of not answering to simple and direct questions. If he's town, why is he not cooperating with people to try and solve the game, and instead making people like rsoul and myself have to keep repeating the same (unanswered) questions?
He has also exhibited a pattern of playing AGAINST the Town's win condition. The mass claim was pro-Town, and he opposed it, even though his pre-game thoughts would indicate he understood how difficult a place the mass claim puts Scum into, and that the only way Scum could pull out an upset win in this game is with carefully considered fake claims. Now he says he changed his mind, but it's not good that he changed his mind to the anti-Town choice.
He followed that up by playing against the Town's win condition again, when suggesting that the Day 2 lynch be one of the medic claims (me) instead of one of the VT claims, even though the whole point of the mass claim was to put us in a situation where we almost cannot lose, if we just plow our way through the VT claims. Koshi had already outlined this reality, before HF continued to go against it anyway.
He followed that up by playing against the Town's win condition a third time, when suggesting that we take vig shots into the medic pool tonight, instead of into the VT pool, when again, the benefit of the mass claim is that we win by finding the scum in the VT claims.
His excuse for all this anti-town behavior? He'd rather have fun, than play optimally. I'm not even exaggerating, that's actually what he said:
On March 11 2018 06:21 Holyflare wrote:
I would much rather have fun and lynch mafia then trying to play optimally and rely on some shit game mechanics to win
There are no bonus points for making the game harder and then still managing to win anyway. If you were Town, we should have (EVENTUALLY) been able to get you to STOP SERVING THE MAFIA AGENDA. But we haven't.
In case the shot ends up going into the VTs, he wants to make sure it doesn't hit him. Ideally, it wouldn't hit Moosy, either, so that Moosy can be the Day 3 lynch. (If Moosy is killed by medics tonight and flips Green, HF knows he's next in the Noose. He's gotta hope someone else gets killed by the medics, so that Moosy will be lynched Day 3.)
To that end, he says he's already figured out who the Mafiosa is: Koshi.
And also says:
On March 11 2018 09:43 Holyflare wrote:
I don't think moosy is mafia at all to be fair.
HF has used terms like "honestly" and "to be honest" a lot in this game, which studies have shown are used by people more often while they are lying than when they aren't. "to be fair" is not in the same category, but it's strange word choice, in my opinion, for the point he's making.
It seems like people think HF is a pretty bright guy, but I've identified (and pointed out) the use of multiple logical fallacies, in his posts.
He has also seized on little bits of nothing, and then tried to balloon them up to be much more than they really were.
The "scumslip" where Tubesock believes HF's medic claim is only *barely* alignment-indicative at all. It was not as strong as the arguments that I used (and that AMG seconded) to scumread Tubesock.
HF repeatedly brings up that I'm not making "find the fake medic" my primary focus, like as if that's a big deal. It SHOULDN'T be my primary focus.
Brings up that I was the last medic to claim. And? That's not "barely" alignment-indicative, instead it literally means nothing. Once the mass claim begins, the fake claim is just as likely to be the first one as the last one.
The crown jewel is probably this post:
On March 10 2018 21:14 Holyflare wrote:
I believe vivax and ff are the true medics. I think vivax should heal df and ff heal noob. The real medic of noob and df should heal the other one. Easy free mafia nk.
This would be so outlandishly dangerous for Town that I thought he might just be looking to see reactions to it. Which is why I did not respond to it for the entire rest of the Day 2 phase, except to say that I would like to see more people comment on what they thought of it (so that *I* could watch for reactions too. This is what is behind ALL of the instances where I pose or bump questions, for everyone to answer. Watch how people react to the question, and make them take a position. This is how scumhunting works. You don't catch people in contradictions later, if you can't make them react to anything.)
If Kelsier flips Red, I don't have to worry about any naughty motivations behind HF suggesting this, but after Kelsier flips Town, and we're in the Night Phase, I go back to HF and ask him what he gained from watching reactions to his suggestion. Or if it didn't work, and he gained nothing. Or if he actually thinks that shooting into the medics is what we should do. I tell him I need an honest answer, no more games. He says he'd rather take the shorter path to the end of the game, which tells me that yes, he legitimately wants to use the idea.
And the idea makes good sense...as long as he's scum. If DF and I are suspicious of each other enough to follow the plan, we turn in heals on each other, as suggested. Whichever of FF/Vivax is the other town medic also turns in a heal on one of us. Killing that town medic. Whichever of FF/Vivax is the mafia medic turns in a heal on the OTHER one of us, killing THAT town medic. And the mafia uses their night kill to eliminate one of the VTs.
Poof, THREE town deaths in the same night, including two medics (myself and DF), meaning we lose the ability to take vig shots anymore. The sole remaining medic will be paralyzed, because if he turns in a heal on the following night, he's just as likely to accidentally kill his target (when the mafia medic targets the same player) as save his target. No way to be sure which VT the mafia are killing and which one they are targeting to heal.
Night 2 is 7-2. Day 3 would be 4-2. Which means....lynch wrong, and you may never see Day 4, and the Town cannot No Lynch in this ruleset.
But let's say the Town DOES lynch correctly on Day 4, putting HF in the noose, for causing the deaths of 3 Town players in one night. 4-1. But the NK would make it 3-1, and you AGAIN cannot lynch wrong, when choosing between Vivax and FecalFeast on the final day.
That is what HF's suggestion gets you: The opportunity to go from a massive 7-2 advantage right now, to having to lynch correctly twice in a row to stave off a mafia victory.
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So those are my cases. What's the play? Kill Moosy? Or kill HF? I don't like any other options.
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On March 11 2018 10:04 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Is there anything anyone wants me to look into? I've shared all my thoughts so I'm down with answering questions people have on my reads.
Yeah, I have a question about your reads. Who is the VT scum? The other vanilla claims are: Slam, HF, rsoul and Koshi. Who should get shot tonight? I don't feel like you're interacting with any of them like as if they are scumreads. Does your own PoE tell you that the VT scummer is you? 
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On March 11 2018 10:23 Koshi wrote:
Moosy looks town.
Cuz?
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Heck, I'll even ask Holyflare. Hf, why is Moosy town? And why is Koshi scum?
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On March 11 2018 15:40 Alakaslam wrote:Show nested quote +On March 11 2018 15:32 n00bKing wrote:On March 11 2018 10:04 MoosyDoosy wrote:
Is there anything anyone wants me to look into? I've shared all my thoughts so I'm down with answering questions people have on my reads. Yeah, I have a question about your reads. Who is the VT scum? The other vanilla claims are: Slam, HF, rsoul and Koshi. Who should get shot tonight? I don't feel like you're interacting with any of them like as if they are scumreads. Does your own PoE tell you that the VT scummer is you? I thought HF was a medic claim I am so confused to all Hell
He claimed medic Day 1. Kicked off Day 2 by saying it hadn't been true.
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On March 11 2018 16:17 rsoultin wrote:
As for hf...I'm just not sure. Part of me wants very much to string him up just because I'd hate myself if he played this obviously scumsided as scum and still we lost to him.
Well...yeah, let's NOT make that our basis for killing him. lol
On March 11 2018 16:21 rsoultin wrote:
I do like your point about rescinding the medic claim early though because that still makes no sense to me. Fake-claiming as town to fuck with mafia is entirely within his town wheel house, though.
Yes, I don't doubt that at all. It's not the fake claim that's weird, it's the throwing it aside for no (town-motivated) reason that I can come up with. I listed 3 different occasions where he acted against the Town agenda, but on this 4th point, a town HF wouldn't just be going against the Town's best-interests because he thought he had his own plan instead. Rather, he'd actually be acting against his *own* plan.
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On March 11 2018 18:56 rsoultin wrote:
Also not sure what you meant by DF should have died if he wasn't real medic? Can you lay that out for me?
Yeah, I think I asked Koshi that question earlier, and I don't remember an answer. Might have been a typo or something, because it's just such a weird statement.
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EPT
