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[T][M] Resistance V - Section 31 - Page 10

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 12:06 GMT
#933
On November 04 2015 21:03 sicklucker wrote:
Xata you didnt consider the hero play?


I considered, but I can't come to a conclusion about a likely enough 3-scum team...
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 12:20 GMT
#934
Btw Superbia I couldn't find out why you voted no after all?
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 16:29 GMT
#995
On November 04 2015 23:45 Rels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 04 2015 20:52 Xatalos wrote:
Crap... My phone deleted everything I was writing as I went back to look at filters :/ Now I'll just write from the top of my head..

So yeah, right now I think shockeyy is probably scum (especially if he didn't realize that the votes would be public like sicklucker said..). The remaining scum should be one of HTS/Kita (explained before) and one of Rels/Superbia/Artanis. Tbh Rels hasn't seemed too bad lately considering his constant activity and engagement, while Superbia and Artanis have basically continued semi-lurking for a long time now. Not really confident who there is scum, but that should be resolved as the game progresses.

So overall, not really confident in attempting an all-scum team right now. Probably best just to go with the safe plan of me, rayn and.. sicklucker? He hasn't really done much besides the weird OMGUS on me, but just with PoE, the point about shockeyy and overall his "I don't give a fuck" attitude seem more likely from town IMO. Tentatively:

##Nominate Xatalos, rayn, sicklucker
(That should work?)

I'll be online only very sporadically for a while, but please comment.

Still following the thread sentiment I see. When I bring up stuff on HTS, you say "mm maybe she's scum." When SL asks to be in the team, you agree and roll with it. I'm not seeing SL is town or scum; but the way you're playing is super scummy.
Alright it's time to roll out the meta analysis on you. Will do this tonight when I have more time.


I'm confused by this post. Didn't you call me a good townread recently? What's with this "super scummy" suddenly? Besides, I didn't even read SL's post before my nomination... Which you should have noticed by the fact that I hadn't even got to reading Artanis's post before I started typing.

Overall, would be nice to hear more opinions on the current proposal. From you, from Superbia, and others.
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 16:33 GMT
#996
Hm where does the SL scumread come from, Superbia?
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 16:40 GMT
#1005
On November 05 2015 01:35 Superbia wrote:
Kind of nowhere. It's PoE. I expect town SL to be a lot more involved and active. He hasn't really done anything this game. He has done this before as town, but I can read him when he's doing shit, not when he's not. So he goes in the back of the PoE list.


Has he / do you expect he would take this attitude as scum? Isn't it actually good for him here that he plays similarly as town?

I'm also considering Artanis atm though, liked his recent posts. About you, I'm not quite so sure on.
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 16:43 GMT
#1008
On November 05 2015 01:40 kitaman27 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 01:29 Xatalos wrote:
Overall, would be nice to hear more opinions on the current proposal. From you, from Superbia, and others.


I'm leaning towards reject at the moment. I wouldn't feel comfortable passing a team with you still. I think there are better alternatives than sicklucker, though I'm still kinda null on him so he wouldn't totally kill a team. rayn has also owed me a response for a while, so I'm waiting on that.

Preferably I'd be looking at something like Kita/artanis/rayn, though I'm obviously aware that you wouldn't do something like that. Maybe one of HTS/Rels in place of myself if need be (?).


Not really comfortable enough with 3 townreads to exclude myself from a team. At least not for you
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 16:44 GMT
#1011
On November 05 2015 01:43 Superbia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 01:40 Xatalos wrote:
On November 05 2015 01:35 Superbia wrote:
Kind of nowhere. It's PoE. I expect town SL to be a lot more involved and active. He hasn't really done anything this game. He has done this before as town, but I can read him when he's doing shit, not when he's not. So he goes in the back of the PoE list.


Has he / do you expect he would take this attitude as scum? Isn't it actually good for him here that he plays similarly as town?

I'm also considering Artanis atm though, liked his recent posts. About you, I'm not quite so sure on.


I'm not sure what SL's scum-play is there days. I think it's usually pretty easy to read him if he's not lurking. The fact that he's not coming up with weird ass logic/strategies this game is troubling.


Wasn't his OMGUS thing on me quite weird haha
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 16:46 GMT
#1014
On November 05 2015 01:39 Rels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 01:29 Xatalos wrote:
On November 04 2015 23:45 Rels wrote:
On November 04 2015 20:52 Xatalos wrote:
Crap... My phone deleted everything I was writing as I went back to look at filters :/ Now I'll just write from the top of my head..

So yeah, right now I think shockeyy is probably scum (especially if he didn't realize that the votes would be public like sicklucker said..). The remaining scum should be one of HTS/Kita (explained before) and one of Rels/Superbia/Artanis. Tbh Rels hasn't seemed too bad lately considering his constant activity and engagement, while Superbia and Artanis have basically continued semi-lurking for a long time now. Not really confident who there is scum, but that should be resolved as the game progresses.

So overall, not really confident in attempting an all-scum team right now. Probably best just to go with the safe plan of me, rayn and.. sicklucker? He hasn't really done much besides the weird OMGUS on me, but just with PoE, the point about shockeyy and overall his "I don't give a fuck" attitude seem more likely from town IMO. Tentatively:

##Nominate Xatalos, rayn, sicklucker
(That should work?)

I'll be online only very sporadically for a while, but please comment.

Still following the thread sentiment I see. When I bring up stuff on HTS, you say "mm maybe she's scum." When SL asks to be in the team, you agree and roll with it. I'm not seeing SL is town or scum; but the way you're playing is super scummy.
Alright it's time to roll out the meta analysis on you. Will do this tonight when I have more time.


I'm confused by this post. Didn't you call me a good townread recently? What's with this "super scummy" suddenly? Besides, I didn't even read SL's post before my nomination... Which you should have noticed by the fact that I hadn't even got to reading Artanis's post before I started typing.

Overall, would be nice to hear more opinions on the current proposal. From you, from Superbia, and others.

Mm I'll check that tonight. I need to check your filter length compared to your scum / town game, but 10 pages already feels enormous considering we're in N1 in a normal game.
Assuming the filter length analysis confirms what I think right now: I would like you to switch sicklucker with kita, shockey, me or Artanis. SL is not doing much; nothing he did was scum indicative, but nominating someone just because he doesn't seem to care is not ideal when there is stronger choice.


Kita? Shockey? What are these suggestions :D
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 17:06 GMT
#1022
Wow, what a post by rayn >.>

I agree it's weird how he treats me and Rels differently. Easily townreading him and scumreading me based on some detail. Which I already explained, and he seemed to accept, yet the read persists..
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 17:10 GMT
#1023
I guess you mean that bussing is MORE dangerous in this setup, rayn? Not sure if I completely agree... Isn't it kind of useful to not be "hard-aligned" with team selections in mind?
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 17:24 GMT
#1032
Hm... What's your opinion on the team while we're still both here, rayn? Is sicklucker the most likely to be town as the third option? Or do you think it's possible to locate the whole scumteam with enough accuracy at the moment for the other plan Personally I'm not that confident atm...
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 17:39 GMT
#1036
Really? A further explanation would be nice.. He's been kind of hesitant to give reads or comment on things for a while. I guess his post with the vote analysis / possible scumteams was okay.
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 17:52 GMT
#1039
Hmmm....

What I mean is, he didn't really comment on the whole process of HTS's team selection at all. Then he only said "I'll vote yes" during the voting, but actually voted no. Even now I'm not sure of his thought process for all of that.
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 18:00 GMT
#1043
On November 04 2015 09:09 Superbia wrote:
All right. Listen. You do not genuinely discuss your vote before you vote, you do so after. Mafia does not have a QT, they cannot communicate. Part of the game- and part of the play as town- is to keep mafia in the dark as to what the voting is going to be. There are voting trends that can be gained and analyzed if this is kept as it is. I was hoping people would do this.

So please, next time, do not do this. Discuss who you think is mafia during all phases. We discuss our votes after voting is revealed.


Hm... I guess it was a reaction test or something then? Well, I guess it's an acceptable reason... Actually it's kind of a townie thought since as scum making confusing posts would only confuse your team further.

Still a bit conflicted about him being the third member, but... I'm considering it.

Are you sure? I still maybe feel better about sicklucker since he's not really caring about his appearance (which should be especially important as a Spy).
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 18:02 GMT
#1044
I assume he townreads me because he suggested me for the team?
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 18:03 GMT
#1045
On November 05 2015 00:45 Superbia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 00:36 Rels wrote:
On November 05 2015 00:27 Superbia wrote:
Ugh. That answer does not satisfy me.



Rels- you are here. I am currently still incredibly stuck on your alignment as being mafia, so if you're town, you're going to have to walk me through your analysis of my alignment.

On November 02 2015 23:16 Rels wrote:
OK this tire me so let's lay out what happened. Timeline.

1. Superbia scumreads Xata for saying "playing scum is a nightmare".
On November 02 2015 08:18 Superbia wrote:
I instantly retract my townread.

On November 02 2015 08:20 Superbia wrote:
So it's in no way a "nightmare" for "them". Which you should know, since you have played the game before.


2. Superbia asks Xata if he really thinks it's a nightmare, Xata kinda confirms.
On November 02 2015 08:32 Superbia wrote:
Do you really think this game is a nightmare for scum?

On November 02 2015 08:35 Xatalos wrote:
Yeah, I think it should be somewhat anti-scum. In the way that IRL Resistance is pretty balanced, but here it's much easier for town to communicate properly than IRL, whereas the scumteam can't communicate at all like usual in forum Mafia.


3. Superbia uses this to make Xatalos say something he didn't: that being scum isn't nightmarish
On November 02 2015 08:39 Superbia wrote:
So now that we've correctly concluded that you don't believe it is a "nightmare" for scum. Why did you open with that?


Conclusion
That is the problem with Superbia's early play; twisting Xatalos' words to something he didn't mean. Now he turned that read around to townread Xatalos, and rayn is claiming it's not suspicous, which might be right. But this word-twisting stuff is scum indicative.


You are so incredibly stuck on me "twisting" Xatalos' words in the beginning of the day- and that it is scum-indicative. However, you evaluate my word twisty-ness from a position in which I would have to be scum and Xat would have to be town (this is why I've been calling TMI on you), while you had no read on Xat. Moreover, that entire scum-read could've been put in the garbage as soon as I started flipping on Xatalos.


This answer:

+ Show Spoiler +

On November 03 2015 06:35 Rels wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 03 2015 06:30 Superbia wrote:
Rels have you even read my post explain the whole Xat thing? Every single point you're bringing up (as far as I'm reading - p16) seems to be your own weird interpretation on things and I am really disliking it.

This post in particular is incredibly loaded with your own interpretation, and it really feels like you're driving an agenda here (i.e. to scum-push me):

On November 02 2015 22:34 Rels wrote:
On November 02 2015 20:52 Superbia wrote:
On November 02 2015 20:47 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Superbia FYI Xatalos has not played forum Resistance.


...That makes me slightly more suspicious rofl. But whatever, I have concluded that you are likely town, and that Xat may be town too. Partially due to me trusting your read a little, and partially because of how he's mentally (i.e. logically) handling my push.

Actually Xat was town in the vanilla mafia game too right? The one in which he died n3 or whatever (I've half-followed it)? And where they lynched scum on d3 only? If so that gives him some town-points this game so far.

I find this super convenient. Superbia started by scumreading Xata for the nightmare thing, which is understandable. Then there was the "is it still nightmarish ?" "kinda" "now that you've said it's not nightmarish anymore ..." scumread which was super weird. And now that rayn thinks Xata is town for meta, suddenly Xata is town for Superbia too, and I have TMI on him.


Let's break this apart into two pieces:

1. My secondary post on the whole nightmare-ish part is putting into words what I had already expected to have been inside Xatalos' head- that he did not believe it is a "nightmare" for scum. I have explained this.

2. Your TMI has nothing to do with my read on Xatalos whatsoever. The blatant fucking fact is that you are evaluating me for interactions with Xatalos without giving a read on Xatalos. What if he's mafia? Does that change anything for your read on me?

Side note. You exclaim that me beginning to lean town on Xatalos is super convient. In what way? If I am scum, what am I achieving here? Keep in mind that you still have no read on Xatalos (right?). So in what way is me, calling a null for you, super convenient?

Rels, kindly answer the bolded questions and the following:
- Please explain, in detail, how what you perceived to be my push on Xatalos makes me mafia.
- How was my explanation on the matter inadequate? What did not make sense?

I think there was something else I wanted to ask but I forgot. Maybe I'll remember it later.

I've already discarded the "you town read on Xatalos is convenient" stuff, it wasn't scum indicative.
Your read on Xatalos is weird because it is not based on logic. Xatalos is saying it's kinda nightmarish to be scum => you say he said the inverse. It doesn't make sense from a town perspective. It makes sense from a scum perspective that decided to scumread Xatalos, and is twisting things to keep it.



Does not give me anything. It's a cheap and easy way to look at things, and ignore my perfectly good explanation. In fact, you ignore a number of my questions- ones that I still want answered. Pushing town as mafia is something you do- I've seen it done in the previous game we were in. The fact that you are so adamant with such hollow argument irks me so much, especially knowing my own alignment.

I have nothing to add to what I wrote above. You pushed Xatalos on something illogical, then you turned your read around. This is scum indicative and no amount of explanation will change that. Now that is not strong, so I'm waiting to see what you'll do.


Going to call you scum for the rest of the game probably. Unless something drastically changes.
The logic makes no sense.

Your push on me implies:
- Xat is town (likely at this point- not for you at that point in time)
- I am scum (nope).
- My agenda behind the push on Xat was to put scum on town-Xat as scum. Probably to divert attention.

Here's where the problems are:
- You have failed to address my explanation post, even though strong town players have backed up my reasoning (HtS and rayn, do you believe they are both scum?).
- I flipped on Xat rather quickly, which fucks over the agenda you proposed.
- You have never explained why it is scum-indicative, only in the case where Xat is strictly town, and I am strictly scum, which is back-wards reasoning. This indicates an agenda (i.e. pushing town-me).

And this is the most glaring one I just thought of:
- In your world, you have failed to argue that I (scum-Superbia) am now going after you (town-Rels). Even though you should 100% know your own alignment (and it should be town, right?), and it would completely support your initial assertion.


Seems so... but not completely sure about the progression
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 18:22 GMT
#1049
Hmmm...

I guess I've felt slightly more comfortable with sicklucker over Artanis because it's more possible for Artanis to just "appear good" as scum (like his latest posts have seemed pretty good) rather than for sicklucker to just "indirectly" look townie like that. It's not a big difference really.

And isn't sicklucker pretty townread actually? On the other hand, there are suspicions on Superbia. Like I think Artanis showed suspicion earlier.
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 18:27 GMT
#1053
On November 05 2015 03:23 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 03:22 Xatalos wrote:
Hmmm...

I guess I've felt slightly more comfortable with sicklucker over Artanis because it's more possible for Artanis to just "appear good" as scum (like his latest posts have seemed pretty good) rather than for sicklucker to just "indirectly" look townie like that. It's not a big difference really.

And isn't sicklucker pretty townread actually? On the other hand, there are suspicions on Superbia. Like I think Artanis showed suspicion earlier.

Actually i think sicklucker is a pretty guud pick. If i assume my reads are even almost correct i wanna know what Rels does tomorrow if the team of me/you/SL passes the mission and Artanis (obviously) adds himself.


Kk, well that seems good to me too. Now to look at kita's wall of text >.>
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 18:34 GMT
#1054
What do you mean that I didn't have any real reads and that my explanation wasn't "genuine"? At the time, I think you just said "I guess we have different views on the word 'engaged' then" or something....
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
Xatalos
Profile Joined January 2011
Finland9675 Posts
November 04 2015 18:41 GMT
#1056
On November 05 2015 03:37 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 05 2015 03:27 kitaman27 wrote:
On November 05 2015 03:10 raynpelikoneet wrote:
She thinks both you and kita are town but she picks the person that is least likely to get yay-voted in the team.
It makes very little sense.


What would be the mafia motivation to suggest a team with a less optimal chance of success here?

If HtS is mafia it comes down to this:
1) the team of HtS/Xatalos/rayn gets yay'd; me and Xatalos have "almost definitely confirmed scum", which suddenly makes everything HtS says after that a possibility of a big fuckup. She also needs to argue why Xatalos is scum.
2) the team of HtS/kita/rayn gets yay'd; She can actually more conveniently argue that kitaman is scum, because other people think kitaman is scum aswell. She don't even really need to argue, she can just +1 on the points. (the contrary to (1) is that i am not 100% arguing against her)
3) the team of HtS/kita/rayn get's nay'd (which is very very likely in the first place); she doesn't out herself, and passes the turn onto someone else -- she "looks better" to you, which increases her possibilities of getting picked later on as she is "right".

Personally i see the scum motivation in (2) and (3) over (1). If i was at HtS' position i would definitely pick either (2) or (3) over the possibility (1), since regardless of who is scum in this game at that time (and even now) the town is not working very well together.


Yeah, I wouldn't really want to be against me/rayn as scum HTS :D
"The opportunity to secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself." - Sun Tzu
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