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The thing that I'm most pissed about is the fact that some people were informed about mafia win conditions and others were not.
On September 05 2015 10:24 Damdred wrote:
It was all fake the anger etc because I knew that it was the right play especially with the information oneg had given me about winning without going to true lylo.
Like this is a situation which 100% completely changes how everyone plays. It changes how survivor plays. It changes how mafia plays. It changes how town plays. If players are going to be told this, then it 100% needs to be posted in the OP and made clear to everyone.
This is also the reason why I'll ignore Onegu games from now on.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On September 05 2015 12:04 geript wrote:
The thing that I'm most pissed about is the fact that some people were informed about mafia win conditions and others were not.
As far as I know, "some people" is only damdred right? The mafia team wasn't aware that the survivor auto-sided with mafia either. I was fully expecting to have to go through an awkward 1v1v1 king maker scenario where I would need to convince damdred to lynch obi.
Considering that mafia had only 1 kp past the first night, which could be roleblocked by the jailer or rber, along with 2 watchers and 3 cops, and several day vigs I don't think it's all that terrible to have the survivor work that way. Maybe the only difference would be to make that fact public, but the setup is closed so that's not really necessary.
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On September 05 2015 12:00 Lord Tolkien wrote:
My entire plan unraveled when rayn got himself lynched.
RIP me.
blame kitaman he hammered me. 
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On September 05 2015 12:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2015 12:00 Lord Tolkien wrote:
My entire plan unraveled when rayn got himself lynched.
RIP me. blame kitaman he hammered me.
Such a scrub. Gets lynched over the Jester.
Gotta ditch dat dead weight.
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On September 05 2015 12:31 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2015 12:25 raynpelikoneet wrote:On September 05 2015 12:00 Lord Tolkien wrote:
My entire plan unraveled when rayn got himself lynched.
RIP me. blame kitaman he hammered me. Such a scrub. Gets lynched over the Jester. Gotta ditch dat dead weight.
mmm i am not blaming you.
LT should.
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but tbh i could have get internet the next day. 
like when i tried to post with my phone it just said "wrong input" all the fucking time, it took me 3-15 tries to get a post across, which meant like 10-45min for a single post, just to post it...
i just could not care anymore.
and i couldn't even access the scum QT. I could have at least told you what's the case.
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On September 05 2015 12:19 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2015 12:04 geript wrote:
The thing that I'm most pissed about is the fact that some people were informed about mafia win conditions and others were not. As far as I know, "some people" is only damdred right? The mafia team wasn't aware that the survivor auto-sided with mafia either. I was fully expecting to have to go through an awkward 1v1v1 king maker scenario where I would need to convince damdred to lynch obi. Considering that mafia had only 1 kp past the first night, which could be roleblocked by the jailer or rber, along with 2 watchers and 3 cops, and several day vigs I don't think it's all that terrible to have the survivor work that way. Maybe the only difference would be to make that fact public, but the setup is closed so that's not really necessary.
That only makes it worse. Mafia didn't receive their win con. 3P received mafia's win con. WTF??? That's even more fucked up.
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Like, the fact that there are 2 cops (maybe 3) and 2 watchers (which are less useful) is balanced out by the fact at mafia has a huge amount of extra KP. 2 Nukes and a PGO at least. Like I don't think you can realistically balance roles/setup in all blue setups. You just have to hope that it's close enough, which I think it is albeit probably 55-60% town favored.
You don't balance out roles by altering win conditions. I mean, think how you would feel if you auto lost because you went into 1-1-1 lylo but were auto lynched because host says so. That's really fucked up and that is essentially what is happening with this win con. You know. Fuck that.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On September 05 2015 12:34 raynpelikoneet wrote:but tbh i could have get internet the next day. like when i tried to post with my phone it just said "wrong input" all the fucking time, it took me 3-15 tries to get a post across, which meant like 10-45min for a single post, just to post it... i just could not care anymore. and i couldn't even access the scum QT. I could have at least told you what's the case.
Yeah in a normal situation I think it would have been fine. But VA already had an empty filter when he had to replace so having it happen two days in a row kinda hurt. No worries.
As a side note, allowing the watcher to watch himself while having the ability to have their results posted upon death is kinda a bit too strong. I'm not sure if Fidei was actually aware that he could do this, but if he hadn't claimed his upgrade and mafia would have shot him without a roleblock, it essentially would net you a free scum every time.
The mafia traitor upgrade was a bit sketchy too. It seems like that would be really easy to pull off and would cripple the mafia team in the process.
The vote cop that FF had was probably my favorite role. Gives mafia some counter play with the framer if they catch on, while the town player has to decide whether to utilize their vote or switch off for a check.
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I asked if like his other games if 3p auto won if it got to lylo with mafia if its win condition wasn't in competition with mafia kp.
And I got my answer, I asked if mafia knew oneg said no. I dropped a hint in the thread then made up fake answers when town for curious.
It stinks for town but yeah
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On September 05 2015 12:55 Damdred wrote:
I asked if like his other games if 3p auto won if it got to lylo with mafia if its win condition wasn't in competition with mafia kp.
And I got my answer, I asked if mafia knew oneg said no. I dropped a hint in the thread then made up fake answers when town for curious.
It stinks for town but yeah
No it doesn't stink for town. It's complete bullshit. Hosts should not decide how the final lynch of the game goes. It's really, really fucked up and shouldn't ever happen. All it does is create feel bads. Put Onegu in OWS's place. They posted about as much and were as effective. But Onegu recently has actually gotten to lynch someone in lylo.
It's a really fucking terrible policy to have as a host and he should change it. If he doesn't change it, then there's literally zero reason for anyone to play in his games because they can't count on regular win conditions or on the host not preemptively ending the game.
In a closed setup, if he's going to answer that question for you, then he needs to post that in the thread. Because it gives an unfair advantage to you. It also pretty heavily favors scum in two different ways; first, it makes it far more favorable to just lynch 3P regardless of what they claim (preventing scum lynches) and second it means they gain an extra player or two near ANY lylo. It's really terrible and should never ever be used. Additionally, people should know what their win conditions are in the least.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
Personally I think the survivor role would be more interesting if it always worked by auto siding with mafia at lylo. At least that way there is more incentive for them to hide their identity, though you have to balance the setup elsewhere to accommodate. Typically survivors just claim day 1, never get shot or lynched because it is so uncommon for mafia to make that play, and then win at endgame.
When survivors are completely neutral at lylo you have this weird situation where the survivor doesn't really care who gets lynched, yet determines the outcome of the game based on whoever they decide to favor.
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On September 05 2015 13:02 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2015 12:55 Damdred wrote:
I asked if like his other games if 3p auto won if it got to lylo with mafia if its win condition wasn't in competition with mafia kp.
And I got my answer, I asked if mafia knew oneg said no. I dropped a hint in the thread then made up fake answers when town for curious.
It stinks for town but yeah No it doesn't stink for town. It's complete bullshit. Hosts should not decide how the final lynch of the game goes. It's really, really fucked up and shouldn't ever happen. All it does is create feel bads. Put Onegu in OWS's place. They posted about as much and were as effective. But Onegu recently has actually gotten to lynch someone in lylo. It's a really fucking terrible policy to have as a host and he should change it. If he doesn't change it, then there's literally zero reason for anyone to play in his games because they can't count on regular win conditions or on the host not preemptively ending the game. In a closed setup, if he's going to answer that question for you, then he needs to post that in the thread. Because it gives an unfair advantage to you. It also pretty heavily favors scum in two different ways; first, it makes it far more favorable to just lynch 3P regardless of what they claim (preventing scum lynches) and second it means they gain an extra player or two near ANY lylo. It's really terrible and should never ever be used. Additionally, people should know what their win conditions are in the least.
Huh?
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On September 05 2015 13:04 kitaman27 wrote:
Personally I think the survivor role would be more interesting if it always worked by auto siding with mafia at lylo. At least that way there is more incentive for them to hide their identity. Typically survivors just claim day 1, never get shot or lynched because it is so uncommon for mafia to make that play, and then win at endgame.
When survivors are completely neutral at lylo you have this weird situation where the survivor doesn't really care who gets lynched, yet determines the outcome of the game based on whoever they decide to favor.
I'm fine with survivor roles working that way as long as it's clear that they work that way. It makes playing survivor tougher. As an idea of always "mafia siding," I'm fine with that. But you can't have town not know about that situation so they can are unable to make informed decisions. For example, if town knew that then 100% there's far more pressure to nuke/lynch Damdred regardless of the 3p checks.
The other problem I have with this is that you should've had to send in a NK. Because while it's 1-1-1 if you shoot town, you still have the option to shoot Damdred and cause hella trouble.
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the survivor role in general is fucking crap.
in this game it was fucking super crap.
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On September 05 2015 13:07 ObiWanShinobi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2015 13:02 geript wrote:On September 05 2015 12:55 Damdred wrote:
I asked if like his other games if 3p auto won if it got to lylo with mafia if its win condition wasn't in competition with mafia kp.
And I got my answer, I asked if mafia knew oneg said no. I dropped a hint in the thread then made up fake answers when town for curious.
It stinks for town but yeah No it doesn't stink for town. It's complete bullshit. Hosts should not decide how the final lynch of the game goes. It's really, really fucked up and shouldn't ever happen. All it does is create feel bads. Put Onegu in OWS's place. They posted about as much and were as effective. But Onegu recently has actually gotten to lynch someone in lylo. It's a really fucking terrible policy to have as a host and he should change it. If he doesn't change it, then there's literally zero reason for anyone to play in his games because they can't count on regular win conditions or on the host not preemptively ending the game. In a closed setup, if he's going to answer that question for you, then he needs to post that in the thread. Because it gives an unfair advantage to you. It also pretty heavily favors scum in two different ways; first, it makes it far more favorable to just lynch 3P regardless of what they claim (preventing scum lynches) and second it means they gain an extra player or two near ANY lylo. It's really terrible and should never ever be used. Additionally, people should know what their win conditions are in the least. Huh?
People should never be unclear about their win conditions. If Onegu were playing the game (in your slot) and you hosting, he'd have the feel bads too because the last lynches were set. Onegu has been in idk 2-3 lylos recently; but he's gotten to lycnh people in said lylos. This one not so much. 1-1-3 isn't lylo and shouldn't be unless players are aware of that fact.
Basically, if you run a game with non-standard roles, players should be informed about that. If you run a game with non-standard alignments, players should be informed about that. If you run a game with alignment altering roles, players should be informed about that. If you run a game with non-standard win conditions, players should be informed about that. Jester existing is a bit surprising but is kinda meh because you know it's themed and more likely to have non-standard 3P roles. You can bitch about balance being off a little but because it's themed it's kinda a given going in that one side or another will be heavily favored. But when you spring other major changes (like alignment altering roles or altered win-conditions), that's something people need to know going into the game so they can choose whether the game is right for them to join or not.
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basically geript is right.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On September 05 2015 13:09 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2015 13:04 kitaman27 wrote:
Personally I think the survivor role would be more interesting if it always worked by auto siding with mafia at lylo. At least that way there is more incentive for them to hide their identity. Typically survivors just claim day 1, never get shot or lynched because it is so uncommon for mafia to make that play, and then win at endgame.
When survivors are completely neutral at lylo you have this weird situation where the survivor doesn't really care who gets lynched, yet determines the outcome of the game based on whoever they decide to favor. I'm fine with survivor roles working that way as long as it's clear that they work that way. It makes playing survivor tougher. As an idea of always "mafia siding," I'm fine with that. But you can't have town not know about that situation so they can are unable to make informed decisions. For example, if town knew that then 100% there's far more pressure to nuke/lynch Damdred regardless of the 3p checks. The other problem I have with this is that you should've had to send in a NK. Because while it's 1-1-1 if you shoot town, you still have the option to shoot Damdred and cause hella trouble.
It's a closed setup. Of course the survivor can work that way without informing everyone. I agree that each faction should be aware of their own win condition, but in a closed setup it is not necessary for town to be aware of every win condition.
Here is slam's role from Apeture 4, which you co-hosted:
On April 03 2015 08:00 GreYMisT wrote:
In order to win, you must meet 2 of these goals:
1. Frank Underwood must be elected on D1 (as fighter, rogue or cleric)
2. The cleric, the rogue, then the fighter must die in either that or the reverse order
3. 2 planeswalkers must die before they use their ultimate abilities
4. The number of 3rd party in the game equals both the number of mafia and the number of town
5. The Time-Travelling Perfectionist acts on you
6. Kill a role (not via the lynch, unless you mayor control over it) that has been in a previous Greymist game
7. Collect 3 items (you must have the 3 items when you have completed your other required goal)
8. Frame a player the night they are investigated
9. Get a majority of the players in the game to type ##Vote: GLaDOS in the thread in a single day.
10. Survive your "I'm Right, I'll bet my life on it!" ability
Once you achieve 2 victory conditions, then you will be removed from the game.
Town doesn't know his win condition so they are unable to make an informed decision, but it was completely acceptable because it's a themed game with a closed setup.
As for the shot, I posted my intentions to shoot you in the mafia QT, but I see your point.
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kita it basically comes down to this:
you have an 1-1-1 situation:
any faction could lose/win here.
Why does the host declare a victory on certain faction(s) without a dayphase?
Like what i say the survivor here is a kingmaker and generally a fucking retarded role to have in any game ever, just because it's so fucking terrible and takes all the fun out of the game.
But here, suddenly it makes the town auto-lose? rofl, why?
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
On September 05 2015 13:21 raynpelikoneet wrote:
kita it basically comes down to this:
you have an 1-1-1 situation:
any faction could lose/win here.
Why does the host declare a victory on certain faction(s) without a dayphase?
Like what i say the survivor here is a kingmaker and generally a fucking retarded role to have in any game ever, just because it's so fucking terrible and takes all the fun out of the game.
But here, suddenly it makes the town auto-lose? rofl, why?
Wait, did onegu make it up on the spot?
I was under the impression that the role worked that way from the start? If that is the case, then it is completely acceptable.
If he changed the setup mid way through the game, then yeah that's a problem.
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EPT
