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On June 08 2015 08:36 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 08:31 Breshke wrote:Hi On June 08 2015 08:30 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:28 Kickstart wrote:On June 08 2015 08:26 LightningStrike wrote:
Hi guys I just got around to post and saw that Kickstart made a pact with the devil himself -_- Also I don't like Wherebugsgo voting FreezingFoot on the fact that FreezingFoot is a potential smurf.
@Kickstart thoughts on Wherebugsgo attacking FreezingFoot for being a smurf? Being a smurf is not alignment indicative. refusing to divulge relevant information sure is! identity is a large part of mafia. So do you think someone that has chosen to smurf is more likely to reveal who they are as town or mafia then? I think they would be more likely to reveal themselves as town. Granted, a smurf does not have to reveal themselves to be useful to town. I have smurfed myself, and the reason I do it is often quite simple-most people don't ask, and those who do can be placated by providing opinions and good reads. I have never had the luxury of rolling scum while smurfing, but if I ever did I do not doubt it would be one of the easiest ways to achieve victory. It is plainly obvious why smurfing is far more advantageous to the individual player than the team as a whole. The town only benefits if the player who is smurfing is a high caliber town player, rolls town, and escapes getting shot night 1 due to being a smurf. Otherwise, town stands to gain nothing from a mediocre townie or a bad townie smurfing other than a lack of insight into the player's behaviour. You should always hold smurfs to a higher standard because if they refuse to reveal their identity then you have no background to be working with. You have no expectation of their play, and an ordinarily good townie has rolled scum on a smurf you have no way of knowing.
This post reveals how contrived his behaviour regarding smurfing is.
He admits if there is a very good player smurfing, it is benefical to town because the town smurf can avoid a night kill.
In other words, he understands that there is also mafia motivation to know who the player is, so they can know how to deal with him. Why does he insist in having the disguised person figured out then?
This is also horrible because if you actually needed a player's background to properly play mafia, there would be no newbie games. So, his arguments are clearly forced / fabricated, as already revealed.
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On June 08 2015 13:36 Kickstart wrote:
In my opinion they both have good points. I currently see them as mostly OMGUSing each other to an extent. I am not letting foot off at all, if I haven't been clear enough Ill make it blatantly clear to him and everyone else:
You choose to smurf this game, now you have the extra responsibility of proving beyond reasonable doubt that you are town. If you fail to do this purely through your posts and actions, we have no choice but to lynch you because we have no meta to go off of.
I just think that most people have made this blatantly clear (and it is something that someone who is going to smurf probably already knows anyways) and I see the attempt to "pressure" him as convenient. I mean he has already been pressured on this point, having you come in and piggyback onto the pressure does not add anything. It could be genuine, but it could be opportunistic on your part, I haven't decided which is actually the case yet.
That said foot needs to try not to OMGUS bugs too much and tunnel too hard on him cause that will likely work against him.
I'm not OMGUSing. If I was, I would have voted him earlier. Yet I took a step back to further analyse his approach towards me. You can check my filter and see my posts to realise that my intention was clearly to give him space to do his things.
In the other hand, I have no bigger burden to prove my innocence than any other town. Saying so is letting the opportunity to mislynch me open. I will be trying to catch scum, and you will decide if I'm town or not. It's up to you if you think you should take smurfing into consideration. I will ask you, though, to evaluate my gameplay, and solely it, instead of feeding the paranoia of playing with a stranger that may be pocketing you.
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On June 08 2015 09:10 LightningStrike wrote:Okay I still here for a bit I thought we were leaving right away and and will answer Breshke's quote to me. Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 09:04 Breshke wrote:On June 08 2015 08:56 LightningStrike wrote:On June 08 2015 08:51 Breshke wrote:On June 08 2015 08:49 LightningStrike wrote:On June 08 2015 08:44 Breshke wrote:On June 08 2015 08:35 LightningStrike wrote:
So Breshke any thoughts on Wherebugsgo right now? not really. Do you? On June 08 2015 08:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:31 Breshke wrote:Hi On June 08 2015 08:30 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:28 Kickstart wrote:
[quote]
Being a smurf is not alignment indicative. refusing to divulge relevant information sure is! identity is a large part of mafia. So do you think someone that has chosen to smurf is more likely to reveal who they are as town or mafia then? I think they would be more likely to reveal themselves as town. Granted, a smurf does not have to reveal themselves to be useful to town. I have smurfed myself, and the reason I do it is often quite simple-most people don't ask, and those who do can be placated by providing opinions and good reads. I have never had the luxury of rolling scum while smurfing, but if I ever did I do not doubt it would be one of the easiest ways to achieve victory. It is plainly obvious why smurfing is far more advantageous to the individual player than the team as a whole. The town only benefits if the player who is smurfing is a high caliber town player, rolls town, and escapes getting shot night 1 due to being a smurf. Otherwise, town stands to gain nothing from a mediocre townie or a bad townie smurfing other than a lack of insight into the player's behaviour. You should always hold smurfs to a higher standard because if they refuse to reveal their identity then you have no background to be working with. You have no expectation of their play, and an ordinarily good townie has rolled scum on a smurf you have no way of knowing. Yeah I understand this but that doesn't make not revealing who you are to be alignment indicative. If someone has chosen to smurf they have chosen pre game that they probably don't want to reveal who they are. I feel like saying, reveal yourself or get lynched, is a waste because it depends on the player on how they will act so you can't really get much from that. Also to talk about this now instead of when mafia will be trying to hunt roles. I think it is best in at least the first phase that a lot of the chosen powers are information type roles specifically scrying I kinda dislike his pressure on FreezingFoot since FreezingFoot could be a smurf and him calling him out so early just seems like it's a preplanned motion from him regardless of his alignment so null. When you say you dislike the pressure what do you mean? Do you think it is scummy? Not furthering the game? Could you expand on this? I seems preplanned so it's null on that part but it did generate discussion although it's early in the game and not much going on outside the FreezingFoot stuff. I mean sure I would like to know his aka to do a meta read later on but the reason for people to smurf is they want to hide their identity so we can't use meta on them. I don't get why this makes you dislike the pressure though. This makes me like the pressure It just seems preplanned so he could do that regardless of alignment I feel. What you get out of the pressure yourself?
I was re reading and I saw this.
Can you explain to me this pre planned thing and how a pre planned action isn't alignment indicative?
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On June 08 2015 13:54 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 13:41 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 08 2015 08:36 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:31 Breshke wrote:Hi On June 08 2015 08:30 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:28 Kickstart wrote:On June 08 2015 08:26 LightningStrike wrote:
Hi guys I just got around to post and saw that Kickstart made a pact with the devil himself -_- Also I don't like Wherebugsgo voting FreezingFoot on the fact that FreezingFoot is a potential smurf.
@Kickstart thoughts on Wherebugsgo attacking FreezingFoot for being a smurf? Being a smurf is not alignment indicative. refusing to divulge relevant information sure is! identity is a large part of mafia. So do you think someone that has chosen to smurf is more likely to reveal who they are as town or mafia then? I think they would be more likely to reveal themselves as town. Granted, a smurf does not have to reveal themselves to be useful to town. I have smurfed myself, and the reason I do it is often quite simple-most people don't ask, and those who do can be placated by providing opinions and good reads. I have never had the luxury of rolling scum while smurfing, but if I ever did I do not doubt it would be one of the easiest ways to achieve victory. It is plainly obvious why smurfing is far more advantageous to the individual player than the team as a whole. The town only benefits if the player who is smurfing is a high caliber town player, rolls town, and escapes getting shot night 1 due to being a smurf. Otherwise, town stands to gain nothing from a mediocre townie or a bad townie smurfing other than a lack of insight into the player's behaviour. You should always hold smurfs to a higher standard because if they refuse to reveal their identity then you have no background to be working with. You have no expectation of their play, and an ordinarily good townie has rolled scum on a smurf you have no way of knowing. This post reveals how contrived his behaviour regarding smurfing is. He admits if there is a very good player smurfing, it is benefical to town because the town smurf can avoid a night kill. In other words, he understands that there is also mafia motivation to know who the player is, so they can know how to deal with him. Why does he insist in having the disguised person figured out then? This is also horrible because if you actually needed a player's background to properly play mafia, there would be no newbie games. So, his arguments are clearly forced / fabricated, as already revealed. It's not beneficial because the town smurf can avoid a night kill. It's only beneficial when that townie actually does something, which is usually the case when they are good. Which is why I told you, if that's the case (and you would know!) you certainly don't have to reveal yourself. Your failure to recognize this point is now really damning. I have pointed it out multiple times, yet you are completely fixated on cherry picking my posts. I have invited you to provide scumreads, and invited you to answer many questions that could prove without a shadow of a doubt that you are indeed town, but repeatedly you have failed to do so. If I were scum I would shoot the person with the best reads. It's clearly not you, because you're scum. It wouldn't matter if I'm talking to Foolishness in this game (and you're certainly not him) because your logic and your behaviour is unexplainable from a town perspective. You selectively cherry pick my posts in a way that paints you in the best light, and you repeatedly attempt to undermine my arguments by calling them bad without a shred of evidence backing you up. I'm going to stop crapping up the thread with you directly now, since it's probably just going to continue to scare people off from posting...although I don't really like how slow everyone is to come in and get involved. Again, to everyone in the game: PLEASE contribute, because we need a valid and diverse set of good perspectives to win this game of elimination.
Your first paragraph is full of shit. If it was really your thought process, you wouldn't be trying to gather votes on me behind a policy. I can't do much in 6 hours of game and something like 6 pages on thread 90% of it is you saying nonsensical, WIFOMy stuff about smurfing.
I'm not cherry picking, I'm stating clear sentences in which I reveal how your reads are fabricated / forced. I've just stated mafia priority is survivability so your argument of being about to be lynched and not revealing your identity is stupid.
A lot of players die night 1 even if they have wrong reads because they have this good player status, while a lot of people that have good reads stay alive because they can't get people lynches because they have this bad player status. You know that or you wouldn't talk about the NK dodge thing a smurf can have. So, you're contraticting yourself right now just to fit your scumread on me properly.
I've just brought new information in the thread: I said I willingly refused to shut down your arguments to give you more space so I could have more information to work regarding you, I revealed how your not-revealing-identity thing doesn't fit scum perspective, and I've already showed that aggressiveness isn't a reliable town tell.
What do you think of these stuff?
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On June 08 2015 14:04 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 13:57 Kickstart wrote:
Again, for what it is worth, you both make valid points. Time for others to chime in and not lurk, whether on this topic of discussion or something else. You think his points are valid?? looool He claims he's not "omgusing" even though he more or less called me scum immediately after I voted him. This is not to "give me space". To me it looks like he's just very self-aware of his image. That's not very common among townies.
LOL
I'm really trying to take a step back to further analyse you but you keep posting shit like this.
Are you sicklucker with improved English?
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Also, what is your read on Kickstart and the other players that already posted?
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On June 08 2015 13:50 Breshke wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 13:29 Kickstart wrote:
What is most concerning to me at the moment in this situation is that bugs seems genuinely concerned, but Breshke's vote is just piggybacking off of everything bugs is saying. This irks me because when asked to explain Breshke just quotes bugs again. I specifically asked for the vote with no explanation in the post to be explained and all I got was a quote from what someone else had said.
Quite a convenient way to later say that "Oh I just thought that Bugses case was good thats why I voted, clearly since bugs pushed it though bugs is more likely to be scum than me who just thought the point was good". Especially since the only real reason to have a vote parked on foot at the moment is for pressure, but if your intent was to pressure you wouldn't just echo everything another player has said without asking the person you are trying to pressure any questions. Seems quite scummy to me, and since I asked for an explanation but didn't get a satisfactory one in my opinion:
##Unvote
##Vote Breshke
Yeah because it is really realistic to think that I as scum would think voting for someone giving no reasoning would make me look better than the person who spearheads the lynch. I'm bad but i'm not retarded. Your right i didn't really help much at all with the pressure no denying that. + Show Spoiler +On June 08 2015 13:22 FreezingFoot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 12:46 Breshke wrote:On June 08 2015 11:28 Kickstart wrote:On June 08 2015 08:48 Breshke wrote:
##vote FreezingFoot Breshke plz explain. You've posited and answered questions but you've not explained this vote imo. I liked this post. On June 08 2015 08:46 wherebugsgo wrote:On June 08 2015 08:42 Kickstart wrote:
It is helpful by way of making a point. It is not helpful in so far as having the question answered because you ask the question knowing it won't be answered. If he was interested in displaying his identity he would not be in a disguise. It does not take a wise man to posit your question. you apparently don't understand. It is in town's benefit to know his identity. If he refuses while taking votes that's anti-town. So just vote him and see what he does. If he doesn't give town anything what use is he alive? His contribution to this conversation has been a gif in response to my quote post. It is early in the day, but this is a good chance to see how our smurf wants to play the game. I also further disliked freezingfoot trying to make it seem like WBG was purely pushing him because he was a smurf so I was happy with where my vote is. No. I wanted him to explain why not telling my identity when being voted is a scum behaviour. I've pointed it out repeatedly so he could reveal his thought process. After inquiring three times, bugs just calls me scum and asks me to explain something HE is supposed to explain. You know why? Because he has no thought process. He simply went behind a policy lynch and tried to justify it by saying that not revealing my identity while being up to the lynch is scummy, something YOU should KNOW by now that his is the most nonsensical conclusion to it. You aren't a newbie anymore and you know that a method of scum hunting is to see who is trying more to survive than to catch scum. If you have a player that will only survive if he reveals his identity, a scum will be much more eager to blow his smurf than keeping his identity a secret. I just kept not voting and not defending myself to see how bugs thought process would be in the thread and to see how his thought process would develop. I just showed all of you he has no thought process (in other words, his read is fabricated) when he failed to explain WHY not blowing my smurf would be scim behaviour.His other argument is that I scumread him but I do not place a vote in him. This isn't alignment indicative, specially in the beginning of the game. I did not approached him more aggressively because of what I've already said I was trying to manage. In the other hand, he clearly identifies aggressiveness as town trait and does approach me very aggressive. He is self aware that aggressiveness is a town trait. But how his aggressiveness works? He isn't trying to analyse my alignment. He is just throwing suspicions at me and calling me scum for everything I say, or ridicule my inquiries on him. Which means his aggressiveness is not someone trying to have a read on a player, or to push a player to gather information. His aggressiveness is an attempt to look townie, especially when he believes this is a town trait. Your vote isn't well placed. It is opportunistic. See I really like this now though. Let me explain how I saw bugs play. Pressure this guy because he is a smurf for funsies and to get the thread going.
Justify the reasoning with something really shallow that doesn't really make sense
Oh wait this guy is actually doing something scummy now it is a legit push.I dont think not revealing who you are even if you are about to die is scummy let me make that clear. Just because people can meta you doesn't mean they should totally flop a read on you if they are already voting you coming to EoD. I don't think a meta read should be able to change a read like that. However I did have a problem with you apparently ignoring everything else he was saying and just focusing on the smurf thing but I understand now why you did this and it was on purpose and not intended to make WBG look bad by focusing on something that is not alignment indicative. As for the last paragraph I don't think that makes WBG scummy because as i said before it came off to me that you were purposely focusing on the smurf thing so I can't blame him for having the same reaction and dismissing what you were saying. ##Unvote
Breshke, this would be true if he dropped the smurf thing and went on the other things he thought it was scummy.
Yet he just pointed out I was scum for not voting him, but never drops the smurf argument. So the thought process you claim you saw isn't actually what's happening in thread.
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On June 08 2015 14:25 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 09:09 yamato77 wrote:
If this game were a DotA game I'd be picking Terrorblade right about now. Does this mean you arent going to help at all for half the game but then come win it for us?
This means you should out pick him with huskar
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On June 08 2015 14:31 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 14:27 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 08 2015 14:25 Onegu wrote:On June 08 2015 09:09 yamato77 wrote:
If this game were a DotA game I'd be picking Terrorblade right about now. Does this mean you arent going to help at all for half the game but then come win it for us? This means you should out pick him with huskar Man I thought I knew who you were, then you said this and I knew I was wrong...
Who you thought I was? I'm curious.
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LOL this probably means you thought I was scum.
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Lol.
And I think you should fuck off
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On June 08 2015 15:05 Tubesock wrote:
Hi world!
Kickstart and Breshke I think are town. I actually like Freezing's response.
For the Great Smurf Debate of 2015 I don't care if Freeze outs or not. personally, I'm happy if he/she doesn't. Obviously, she's doing it for a reason pre-game. I don't get why you want to ruin that for them.
Anyway, anyone still around?
I am.
What did you like in my response?
Why do you think Breshke is town?
What do you think of bugs?
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On June 08 2015 15:01 Bill Murray wrote:
##unvote
##vote: WBG
Can you explain this?
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On June 08 2015 15:27 Tubesock wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 15:15 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 08 2015 15:05 Tubesock wrote:
Hi world!
Kickstart and Breshke I think are town. I actually like Freezing's response.
For the Great Smurf Debate of 2015 I don't care if Freeze outs or not. personally, I'm happy if he/she doesn't. Obviously, she's doing it for a reason pre-game. I don't get why you want to ruin that for them.
Anyway, anyone still around? I am. What did you like in my response? Why do you think Breshke is town? What do you think of bugs? I think you feel confident town won't lynch you for a stupid policy reason as you won't out as a smurf. I think Mafia would be more concerned with killing suspicion as soon as possible instead of drawing it out. Forcing your identity out is more a dick move to me. And really even if you did, I think it would derail the thread for longer determining if you are lying or not. Breshke and I think a lot alike. Reading his interaction and his vote on you I can see doing the same thing he did if I were here in the beginning. I'm all for fabricating a policy reason to push someone and then throwing a vote on a person to increase the pressure. You've responded and now there is information from the pressure vote. So, now it's time for WBG to move on. This is my 5th game I think. Everytime there is someone who is a little "angry" or insulty they are usually scum. So maybe a bad heuristic, but if I had to vote now, it would be on WBG, but I'll see if he gets out of this silly tunnel.
Ok, I can understand this line of reasoning. What is worrying me about Breshke right now is that I've already stated everything on why bugs is mafia but he is still defending the guy with very thin reasoning.
Breshke, why is bugs town in your POV?
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On June 08 2015 15:47 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2015 15:18 FreezingFoot wrote:On June 08 2015 15:01 Bill Murray wrote:
##unvote
##vote: WBG Can you explain this? ad hominem is a logical fallacy and indicative of scum considering his scumandeering near my entrance in the game, the two damning qualities of these, coupled with my liking of batsnacks responses to me, are why my vote is where it is are you unhappy that i'm voting someone who is worthy of a policy lynch considering the way he is treating you?
I'm okay with you voting him since I think he has a very good shot on being scum, but if I see a vote in the thread without actual reasoning coming from a guy who hasn't contributed very much in the thread, I will need to know what's going on.
I didn't understand the batsnacks part, tho
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On June 08 2015 16:18 wherebugsgo wrote:
LightningStrike, do you have any games of yours that you would suggest I read if I wanted to know more about how you play? Gonna dig around myself but just curious if you can help me along in identifying which games you would consider representative of your town and mafia play.
He has already quoted his games. What do you make of them?
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Here is where I am at right now:
Kickstart
bats
Tubesock
Onegu
Bill Murray
Breshke
Shockey
Bugs
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I'm slightly scumreading Shockey because I think these two posts doesn't go along:
On June 09 2015 00:25 ShoCkeyy wrote:
##vote wherebugsgo
Bugs posts in the beginning are trollish, but who knows just following the hype train from reading the thread atm.
On June 09 2015 01:49 ShoCkeyy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2015 01:22 LightningStrike wrote:On June 09 2015 00:25 ShoCkeyy wrote:
##vote wherebugsgo
Bugs posts in the beginning are trollish, but who knows just following the hype train from reading the thread atm. Anymore thoughts outside of Bugs opening? I've only gone through the opening, but Kickstart's and Breshke posts seem legit, Onegu is hiding to not get sniped first day. I'll sheep BM just cause I want to atm. It's the first day, hard to tell anything about anybody. Especially when there is other people who have yet to really post. Then there is the smurf, but he's been active so w.e
Votes randomly, gives town passes for both KS and Breshke out of openings, unreasonably votes with BM, throws this half ass intention of lynching a smurf but not actually wanting just because I'm active, giving no actual reason behind this statement.
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I mean, if he is not reading the thread, why voting bugs? And if he is wary of a smurf, why voting the smurf's top scum read?
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##Unvote
##Vote:Shockey
I've being extremely busy today. Just got home.
Did a quick skim in the thread. I've read bugs spread sheet and his reads felt genuine (with the exception of Breshke), reevaluating most of them accordingly to thread progression + I'm not willing to lynch the biggest filter day1 + him being upset with lack of activity feels true (I don't think scum would fuck off like he did when he is the main wagon). He may still be scum but this is enough to let him live another day. We already have a lot of information from him and we can deal with him later, if that is the case. I prefer to have him around day2 than any other scummy person who has few to almost no post at all.
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EPT
