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Noir Mini Mafia: Chapter 3 - Page 5

Forum Index > TL Mafia
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Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 21:23 GMT
#940
Artanis, can you please briefly summarize all of the reasons for your scumread on me? Examples aren't necessary.

Thanks!
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 21:38 GMT
#945
On April 27 2015 06:27 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2015 06:23 Trfel wrote:
Artanis, can you please briefly summarize all of the reasons for your scumread on me? Examples aren't necessary.

Thanks!

1) Tonally very different from your towngame; much more certain in reads until I pinged it out
2) Could not follow your read progression on me. Pointed it out before which you never addressed.
3) Handing out a lot of townreads in general for pretty sketchy reasoning.

Those are my main reasons.
As for my tone itself, I can't address. For read certainty, the reads you comment on here being more certain are my townreads. I haven't really had a solid scumread all game long.

I don't understand why you have problems with my read progression on you. Most of the posts that you cite were while I was in discussion with people, so we were looking at things and posting our thoughts. My thoughts on you weren't complete, I posted after basically every new (notable) thing that I found, or that someone else pointed out. My read on you changed as I got more information. As for you getting a townread from me easier than before, it's because I held you to standards that are too high last game, and I (hopefully) corrected that error. If you expect me to not rethink my reads when given new information... it's just a sign of lazy play.

As for the reasoning behind my townreads, I guess you're right about this. I have most likely townread someone incorrectly, as per this response to your earlier question:
On April 25 2015 08:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 25 2015 07:32 Trfel wrote:
Sorry, I'm not going to be around for the deadline.

I'm fairly confident that at least one of my townreads is mafia, I'll take another look at them soon.

What makes you say this?
My track record, plus I have too many townreads.

I guess this has generally felt like a low-content game, and I'm having trouble finding mafia, so I resorted to being more liberal with townreads, which probably wasn't the best idea.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 21:47 GMT
#948
Trumpet is a great instrument.
+ Show Spoiler +
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 21:54 GMT
#951
On April 27 2015 06:52 Damdred wrote:
Trfel New reads lists type deal please.
Why... As of page 39:

Town
rsoultin
WaveofShadow

Town Lean
Damdred
Palmar

Maybe Scum (filter dives pending)
Artanis
Breshke
yamato77
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 22:00 GMT
#955
On April 27 2015 06:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2015 06:38 Trfel wrote:
On April 27 2015 06:27 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
On April 27 2015 06:23 Trfel wrote:
Artanis, can you please briefly summarize all of the reasons for your scumread on me? Examples aren't necessary.

Thanks!

1) Tonally very different from your towngame; much more certain in reads until I pinged it out
2) Could not follow your read progression on me. Pointed it out before which you never addressed.
3) Handing out a lot of townreads in general for pretty sketchy reasoning.

Those are my main reasons.
As for my tone itself, I can't address. For read certainty, the reads you comment on here being more certain are my townreads. I haven't really had a solid scumread all game long.

I don't understand why you have problems with my read progression on you. Most of the posts that you cite were while I was in discussion with people, so we were looking at things and posting our thoughts. My thoughts on you weren't complete, I posted after basically every new (notable) thing that I found, or that someone else pointed out. My read on you changed as I got more information. As for you getting a townread from me easier than before, it's because I held you to standards that are too high last game, and I (hopefully) corrected that error. If you expect me to not rethink my reads when given new information... it's just a sign of lazy play.

As for the reasoning behind my townreads, I guess you're right about this. I have most likely townread someone incorrectly, as per this response to your earlier question:
On April 25 2015 08:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
On April 25 2015 07:32 Trfel wrote:
Sorry, I'm not going to be around for the deadline.

I'm fairly confident that at least one of my townreads is mafia, I'll take another look at them soon.

What makes you say this?
My track record, plus I have too many townreads.

I guess this has generally felt like a low-content game, and I'm having trouble finding mafia, so I resorted to being more liberal with townreads, which probably wasn't the best idea.

Regarding the read progression, I'm all fine and dandy with that but you never really address it in your posts what made you change. I feel that as town (in the past at least) you often state exactly what changed your mind when it does, and I've missed that this game.

Last time, you mentioned you were much more confident in Yamato being scum than me. Recently, you've mentioned that you don't think Yamato is scum anymore. Am I currently your top scumread or where are you at?
Hm, I did explain exactly what caused my read to change each time.

I don't have a top scumread right now. I removed my scumread on yamato77, but I never decided that he wasn't scum (does that make sense to you?). I found it surprising that right after I left, multiple people posted reasons to scumread yamato77 which I explained in my case on him (apparently, explained very poorly). That makes me slightly more confident in my scumread of him, but it's possible that he always plays in ways that I deem "scummy", because the way he is playing isn't strictly anti-town, its effectiveness depends on how it is done.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 22:04 GMT
#957
On April 27 2015 06:57 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Trfel, can you lay it to me why you think Wave is town? The more specific, the better.
Check my filter?

I'm not going to dig up quotes at this time, but I felt like he's been playing naturally all game long. He's made several reads that I like, and he's been willing to discuss and move things along. His early argument with yamato77 felt particularly natural and towny. Perhaps he's just very good at being natural and relaxed as mafia, but there were some other specific things that I noticed (I don't remember them any more, they should be in my filter) that make me think that he is town anyway.

Plus, I'm noticing a lot of the same things that I noticed when I townread him (correctly) in Aperture 4 (willingness to discuss, some insightful reads, generally liking his comments).
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 22:07 GMT
#960
On April 27 2015 07:06 WaveofShadow wrote:
How was I willing to discuss anything in Aperture 4?
In your earlier posts, before the entire thread (for some reason) decided that you were mafia.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 22:16 GMT
#964
On April 27 2015 07:07 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 27 2015 07:00 Trfel wrote:
On April 27 2015 06:54 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
On April 27 2015 06:38 Trfel wrote:
On April 27 2015 06:27 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
On April 27 2015 06:23 Trfel wrote:
Artanis, can you please briefly summarize all of the reasons for your scumread on me? Examples aren't necessary.

Thanks!

1) Tonally very different from your towngame; much more certain in reads until I pinged it out
2) Could not follow your read progression on me. Pointed it out before which you never addressed.
3) Handing out a lot of townreads in general for pretty sketchy reasoning.

Those are my main reasons.
As for my tone itself, I can't address. For read certainty, the reads you comment on here being more certain are my townreads. I haven't really had a solid scumread all game long.

I don't understand why you have problems with my read progression on you. Most of the posts that you cite were while I was in discussion with people, so we were looking at things and posting our thoughts. My thoughts on you weren't complete, I posted after basically every new (notable) thing that I found, or that someone else pointed out. My read on you changed as I got more information. As for you getting a townread from me easier than before, it's because I held you to standards that are too high last game, and I (hopefully) corrected that error. If you expect me to not rethink my reads when given new information... it's just a sign of lazy play.

As for the reasoning behind my townreads, I guess you're right about this. I have most likely townread someone incorrectly, as per this response to your earlier question:
On April 25 2015 08:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
On April 25 2015 07:32 Trfel wrote:
Sorry, I'm not going to be around for the deadline.

I'm fairly confident that at least one of my townreads is mafia, I'll take another look at them soon.

What makes you say this?
My track record, plus I have too many townreads.

I guess this has generally felt like a low-content game, and I'm having trouble finding mafia, so I resorted to being more liberal with townreads, which probably wasn't the best idea.

Regarding the read progression, I'm all fine and dandy with that but you never really address it in your posts what made you change. I feel that as town (in the past at least) you often state exactly what changed your mind when it does, and I've missed that this game.

Last time, you mentioned you were much more confident in Yamato being scum than me. Recently, you've mentioned that you don't think Yamato is scum anymore. Am I currently your top scumread or where are you at?
Hm, I did explain exactly what caused my read to change each time.

But I pointed out that you didn't. You gave two reasons to townread me, then proceeded to say I was null for things you had noticed and pointed out before.
+ Show Spoiler [Initial case] +
On April 23 2015 07:34 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 07:26 rsoultin wrote:
On April 23 2015 07:23 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Can anyone concisely explain why they're suspicious of me other than not posting as much which I've already mentioned I would pregame and have done in the last game I've played as well (and flipped town in but is ongoing so shh)?


your contributions don't impress me ^^ what's more valuable is you doing the work you'd said you'd do on truffle so i can get a better read on you

i don't care if you're posting less. that's whatever. what i do expect, though, if you've decided to post less is higher quality posting

The posting less is a consequence of spending less time on the game, which is what the real reason for posting less is for me. Creating quality posts costs time too, therefore it seems unreasonable to expect consistent high quality posts as it'd still require a lot of time. I feel the observations I've had have been decent so far, though.

Reading Trfel, I don't understand his read progression on me at all. He had me as scummy leaning for my comment on waiting for Palmar/BH (which I feel is a dumb reason, but ok), then town for the way I replied to it, then said this about me:
Show nested quote +
Artanis is probably town, though I haven't carefully read the section of the thread in which he was posting. His questions are not only motivated at making reads, but also increasing the thread motivation. While he could do this as scum, I don't think it's terribly likely. In addition to the way that he responded to my pressure on him (previously described), I feel that Artanis is likely town.

So at this point he feels I'm likely town.
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 06:12 Trfel wrote:
On April 23 2015 06:05 rsoultin wrote:
talk to me about artie and damdy -flops on- or about part of my list you disagree with

artie just seems...i dunnae, like people keep saying he's doing stuff but off the top of my head i can't really recall what aside from being charitable about my negative toneread on his entrance vote xP
Yeah, in retrospect, Artanis hasn't been doing as much as I thought. What he has been doing, though, has been in the right direction. I'm not sure how much of this is due to his post count restriction, and how much of it is due to my annoying him yesterday.

Damdred's tone looks really good for him here. And while some of the things he is doing seem strange, I don't see the mafia motivation, and he has seemingly tried to get more information into the thread. I don't think that he is scum.

Weakening off his townread on me a little, but still maintains that what I'm doing is in the right direction.
Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 06:24 Trfel wrote:
On April 23 2015 06:15 rsoultin wrote:
On April 23 2015 06:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
He scum read Trfel.
And actually as I recall that read is mostly based on meta and contrary to your read soniv kind of interested to see how that plays out.

Also don't quite get that yamato read Trfel.


well, that's easy, wave lol >< i'm right

the really question is whether or not it's reasonable for artie to be wrong about truffle and still town

(truffle is a super easy read imo)

meh guess i should actually read artanis' filter :/
I think that Artanis's scumread of me actually looks good for him. He makes a good point, and that's the sort of read that I expect from him. Would he do that as mafia? Not sure, but I think that he knows that he won't mislynch me this game (or at least, he will need much more evidence first).

I'm still leaning town on Artanis, though is absence is concerning me. Does he agree with the Blazinghand wagon? If not, he should be here and trying to stop it. At the time of his last post, there were four votes on Blazinghand.

If anything looks suspicious, that is it. He doesn't care if Blazinghand is lynched or not.

So he was leaning town on me, then finds another reason to lean town on me (scumreading him).

Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 06:30 Trfel wrote:
I take it back, I just have terrible reading comprehension.

Artanis did comment on Blazinghand, first not convinced that he was scum due to his case, and then felt that it was an okay lynch due to the followup. Maybe I need to get my eyes checked.

It isn't a very large or amazing amount of information on Blazinghand, but I suppose I can see it from the perspective who sees an okay lynch, but also sees everyone ignoring what is (in his opinion) a better lynch.

Aaand another reason to townread me. So that's two more reasons to townread me after leaning town on me earlier.

Show nested quote +
On April 23 2015 06:40 Trfel wrote:
On April 23 2015 06:34 rsoultin wrote:
On April 23 2015 00:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
On April 22 2015 21:12 WaveofShadow wrote:
That's your ironclad reasoning palmar? Calling me scum for shit I've already explained in thread and saying 'I don't know what yamato is doing?'

Gj

Artanis any thoughts on BH at all? Did you read what I wrote?

I don't like his unwillingness to comment on other things. I don't like his case on Damdred particularly either. As has been said, it's a narrative. Seems like a good chance to flip scum.

I need to do some more work on Trfel and flesh my read on him out but I have to leave for theater in a sec. Will get something done later tonight. Kinda annoyed no one's commented on him since I called him scummy but you though.


mmm or maybe just benching the read for later?

okay i guess i can give artie some space to see what comes of this
It seemed to me that Artanis would be back later to finish his read on me.

Artanis is sort of null, I suppose, given both his semi-weak stance on Blazinghand and not having the thread leadership that I thought he did at a glance.

I expect scum to be among Artanis, yamato77, and maybe Breshke, even though I can't demonstrate that any of them are clear scum yet.

What happened? I don't understand this progression at all.


On another note, I think I might also want to lynch Palmar for voting for Yamato when Wave was his top suspect, and he suspected Yamato for the way he treated Wave's case rather than going after Wave himself. He also never really re-evaled Wave. Palmar's tone is always pretty confident these days I find, so I don't want to clear him for that in retrospect. Also a case of other people being townier.
Point by point.
  • I gave my first townread on you. Reason being that I thought you were driving the thread. I hadn't read the last several pages of the thread at the time, where I thought the bulk of your activity had been
  • Then I read the last several pages, and realized that you hadn't actually made posts like I had thought. I reread your filter, and you hadn't been driving the thread all that much. Hence, my townread wasn't really valid any more.
  • I see your point now. What happened was, I made a post stating "I see am leaning town on Artanis, but this is a reason why he might be scum, so I need to look into this". And then I looked into it, and for a while it was looking really bad, but then I found a comment that I missed. The fact that you did comment on Blazinghand (which I initially missed) caused you to be closer to null, when I was about to scumread you.
I understand your scumread on me a lot better now. Thanks.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 22:21 GMT
#967
Artanis, why are you townreading yamato77 and Breshke?
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 22:25 GMT
#973
[QUOTE]On April 27 2015 07:20 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 27 2015 07:15 WaveofShadow wrote:
[QUOTE]On April 27 2015 07:10 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
Basically, what's weird to me about Palmar is how Wave is his prime suspect, yet he never really goes to full lengths to get him lynched or research him, but rather just goes after Yamato when thread sentiment is turning against Yamato making him an easier mislynch (presuming Yamato is town). It doesn't seem like he's all that concerned about getting Wave lynched. His vote on him is completely meaningless too with no thread support and him not trying at all to get people on board the Wave train. He's never added anything to his initial case.[/QUOTE]
See that's the thing about Palmar. He never seems concerned enough to do anything, ever. If you can somehow tell by meta that this is town/scum Palmar by all means but as far as in-thread confidence goes I still have him at least townier than null.[/QUOTE]I actually disagree.

Palmar knows that if all he does is troll, it will be somewhat hard to lynch him.

Instead, Palmar started reading the game and making actual cases (cases which I don't think were all that good, but they were definitely serious cases). I don't think that these cases help Palmar at all, in fact they might actually hurt him, I think that really his motivation was to find scum (even if not enough to make him play the game properly).

Quick question, his reason to scumread WaveofShadow wasn't the initial reason that he forgot, right? It was a different reason?
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 22:34 GMT
#982
Obviously some of it was trolling, but when he actually started providing reasons, I wouldn't consider it trolling.

His reason to scumread WaveofShadow (WaveofShadow wasn't interested in his alignment) is actually true. However, I have the impression that WaveofShadow gets angry a lot, so this would be an expected response from WaveofShadow. Regardless of this, it still doesn't make WaveofShadow scum.

His scumread on yamato77 (associative bit aside) wasn't bad either. It still doesn't make yamato77 scum, though.

I suppose I feel like he did those things at random times. Maybe I'm wrong, and he posted these when he needed to, to survive. Or maybe Artanis is right and he knows what he needs to do to survive, and he posted these to cut off suspicion before it began.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 22:46 GMT
#990
Ugh... can someone tell me the key points that happened between pages 41 and now?

Specifically, why did people stop scumreading yamato77?
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 22:55 GMT
#993
On April 26 2015 07:41 Damdred wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 22 2015 06:48 yamato77 wrote:
On April 22 2015 06:45 rsoultin wrote:
On April 22 2015 06:43 yamato77 wrote:
On April 22 2015 06:38 rsoultin wrote:
On April 22 2015 06:37 yamato77 wrote:
On April 22 2015 06:34 rsoultin wrote:
On April 22 2015 06:31 yamato77 wrote:
like, the advantage of IML to me is that it's REALLY easy to put pressure on people by just piling a few votes on and making that player respond to them

alignments are generally more obvious as someone is going to get lynched

in a normal game, you really only get the chance to do this to like, one or two people per day

but in IML you can do it to literally every person

sure, we have all the time in the world, but it's stupid to waste it waiting on known trolls like BH/Palmar to play the game


then who do you want to lynch in the next 2.5 hours, yama?

the point is the threat of the lynch

you use it actively as a tool to force people to play the game

you don't use it passively and hope they play the game


then do it? no one is stopping you

do you think he's town, or something?

Why do you wish to play foil?


xP i'm going to vote for who i think is scum, and i'm not interested in rushing a vote today. i think artie wanting to give bh/palmar time to participate isn't scum-favored and this whole push is silly -shrugs-

but he's actively using it as an excuse to do fuck-all himself.

Like, he's waiting on the two players in this game that I would have ZERO expectation to suddenly become active of their own free will.

Maybe you don't have the history with BH/Palmar but I do, and Artanis should know better than to passively wait for them to play.

I'm fine with the idea of not lynching today, but you can't just sit back and expect the game to come to you.


I was rereading Yamatos filter, and I really really like this post. and exchange
If you didn't explain this already, why did you say this? (if you did, I'll find it eventually, no need to respond, sorry)
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 22:59 GMT
#995
##vote Breshke

+ Show Spoiler +
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 26 2015 23:38 GMT
#1010
bloody nose atm 1 hand

spoiler explains my vote

guardians, breshke looked town 4 content + reads not tone

ml due 2 poe list
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 27 2015 00:05 GMT
#1012
##unvote
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 27 2015 00:16 GMT
#1013
Hm, I'm really not liking Damdred's posting as of late. Maybe he needs to be added to the mafia pool after all?
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 27 2015 00:26 GMT
#1015
On April 27 2015 09:23 Damdred wrote:
You have 10 sentences to explain why
Reads that I really, really disagree with.

Once I finish catching up and filter dive you, if I decide it's significant, I'll elaborate. Not before then, for obvious reasons.

Also, I have a final tomorrow morning, so I may not get to it until after that.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 27 2015 00:48 GMT
#1017
Hm, it seems that everyone else liked Damdred's posts in the time where I didn't like them, though I liked all of his posts before that when many others didn't.

Guess I need to look at it again later.
Trfel
Profile Joined August 2011
7015 Posts
April 27 2015 03:28 GMT
#1022
I'm going to be honest.

Student Mafia VIII just ended. I can talk about it now.

This game was ridiculously depressing. Not only were my reads wrong for basically the entire game, but I managed to irritate most of the people in the game. My efforts to drive discussion and make things happened only led to more people scumreading me, more people getting mad, and fewer people enjoying reading the game.

It ended with me being shot by the vigilante on Night 1. Still, I managed to make the game environment miserable and make several townies extremely mad.

If people don't want to play with me, then I don't want to play, either. It's not about winning, it's about having fun, and I can't play if that prevents other people from having fun.

So in the midst of this, I scumread yamato77, and posted a case containing my reasons. And then everyone starts yelling at me and calling it a miserable case, and calling me mafia for it. A short while later, a bunch of people decide that yamato77 is mafia, for very similar reasons to ones that I mentioned in my case (apparently I said it really poorly). And yamato77 reached four votes, none of them being me.

No, I'm not playing my best this game. And I'm sorry for that, you guys deserve me to play at my best, especially with the player quality being so high in this game. But I'm doing what I can, and when it gets ignored like this, I'm not happy.

If you're going to scumread me, look at the thoughts I've been putting out first. I'm not one to drive discussion, I've tried to do this many times in the past. It doesn't work out for me, I've lost every single one of the games where I tried to lead discussion, and I was often scumread for doing so. My activity hasn't been very good this game, and for that I'm also sorry. I just ask that people wouldn't ignore me, and actually give my thoughts a fair chance.
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