EPTDevil's Riddle Mafia - Page 92
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
The thing you can take away from this, I think, is to check the OP of approved games and make sure that the roles are clear there. A big part of the issue with this set up was the 3p enforcing swing in a set up that, due to pairings, was already incredibly swingy. Town had too many free cop checks from deaths that scum could not avoid. As soon as one scum was dead it became easy to either catch another scum for free or confirm every partner of a dead townie as mod confirmed not scum. | ||
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Alakaslam
United States17336 Posts
On September 30 2014 02:18 Grackaroni wrote: Slam you're finally unbanned I see it | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On September 30 2014 06:23 Promethelax wrote: The balance was a problem because of the pairings being out in the the OP and because the roles were unclear. Your belief in the set up is one I'd call within reason but this game was based around mason pairs and you totally missed the implications of that. Nothing you can do to improve your actions as a balancer besides not missing things in the future. The thing you can take away from this, I think, is to check the OP of approved games and make sure that the roles are clear there. A big part of the issue with this set up was the 3p enforcing swing in a set up that, due to pairings, was already incredibly swingy. Town had too many free cop checks from deaths that scum could not avoid. As soon as one scum was dead it became easy to either catch another scum for free or confirm every partner of a dead townie as mod confirmed not scum. Thanks for the input! I'll make sure to follow up more closely with games I approve so I catch any unforseen interactions or role nuances in the future. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
HAHAHAHAHAHAHahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Got to keep the 3P happy! When was this decided? Right after DP complained about rolling 3P or after the scumlynch D1? HAhahahaha Pathetic. | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Imagine all the bullshit scenarios that can happen. Oh well. I guess everybody sees how much bullshit that is. And how another game was ended quickly because after 1 cycle the host(s) saw the utter shit his game was. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
On September 30 2014 07:00 geript wrote: It's ok Koshi. You aren't allowed to play in my game. I won't let you. I'm specifically going to code it such that you won't even be able to see the thread. No worries. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
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Damdred
15669 Posts
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Grackaroni
United States9856 Posts
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Setup: On September 30 2014 06:07 Blazinghand wrote: Well, I figure since I approved the balance and people are complaining, I should listen to what they have to say so I do a better job next time. The setup wasn't as imbalanced as some people are suggesting. In a game where town lynches mafia on Day 1 though, the flaws of the setup are going to be far more amplified, especially to the players in the game. This for example... On September 29 2014 23:28 DarthPunk wrote: No YOU think about your game critically for two seconds please. There is no way in HELL this game was balanced for scum. I think Town wins 95% of the time. Without question. ... is just overly dramatic. That being said, there are definitely some balance problems. 4 town power-roles vs. 2 mafia power roles starts to skew the game to pro-town, no matter how the pairs are drawn up (i.e. having a godfather and a cop in a mini is standard balance). The problem is that some snow-ball mechanics for town were thrown on top of this. The pair-system especially made this tough. If a mafia dies within the first two days, it is a catastrophe for the mafia team. If the solo-mafia dies, a situation is created where every flip doubles as a cop-check. If one of the pairing does, two mafia are probably dead. This problem was somewhat masked by CR's "fake-claim" this game (as he was going to get lynched D2 pretty much no matter what happened), but that doesn't mean it isn't a problem. I also thought the 3rd parties did not fit this game. I hate survivor roles in general, as "survival" is a pretty easy/boring win-con that does not require you to play the game seriously. I especially disliked that the arsonist was changed from a purely anti-town solo-win role to a survival win-con. I think it's better to have win-conditions that require someone to active participate and try to "figure-out" an aspect of the game. That being said, I did like the concept of the setup, and I think a few hot-fixes would make a 2nd game much more enjoyable: 1) Change how pairs are determined. A N0 where players can chose their partners would be pretty cool. Those who mutually choose each other are paired up, and those who do not are randomized. All-random pairs also work. 2) Re-work 3rd parties. No survivors. Something like a pair of Assassins, a Hitman, or some solo-win roles (classic SK/Arsonist) would work better in this setup (and would also fit flavor-wise quite well). 3) Less emphasis on power-roles. What makes this setup unique is the pairing system, and I think the roles detract from that. Town-Play: I think it was pretty lucky/fortunate that VE got lynched on Day 1. This town wasn't doing much productive on Day 1, and got mafia lynched by virtue of mafia having very little thread-presence and the only major case in the game being written on mafia. A lot of the problem was that a significant portion of town's time was spent thinking about "process of elimination" and "finding the mafia pair" as opposed to just finding mafia. On September 24 2014 15:52 Grackaroni wrote: I think I want to lynch Oatsmaster now. Yamato/Prom (kind of liking Yamato as town he actually seemed interested in getting discussion started this game) DP/Vayne (leaning town on both atm but I don't have much experience reading DP) Grack/Kush (Kush is actually a strong town read for me for the same reason as DP) Geript/MM1 (I think Geript has seemed really townie recently) CR/VE (CR claimed 3rd party) Hapa/abuse (Not as confident on hapa anymore but he's easy to read based on activity later in the game anyway) This post typifies how a lot of townies were approaching the game. And it's not a very good way of going about things. People were tunneled on Oats/Damdred for a good portion of Day 1 without so much as a case on either of them, made possible by this vague "process of elimination" thing. And this is so bad, because it encourages players to make bad town-reads, and is almost impossible to draw good information from. If you are Damdred in this game, how do you respond to something like this? If you are suspicious of him, what good information could you possibly divine from Damdred's response to something like this? Speaking of ill-justified town reads... On September 26 2014 05:17 Hapahauli wrote: You mean this? It seems like a pretty typical newbie post, no? Plus he's very consistently suspicious of Vayne in my conversations with him in the QT, so I think that post looks better to me. Perhaps unsatisfying to you guys, but w/e. I really don't want to get into the mindset of forcing myself to defend abuse, because my reasons for not wanting to lynch him are more along the lines of "how could everyone see VE's vote on CR and not want to lynch him with fire?" This is why they're so dangerous. With this and a string of posts before this defending abuse (even though my read was closer to null on him), I completely mentally checked out of critically reading abuse's posts. And you can watch me continue this delusion into the Obs QT: my analysis was very focused on finding bus-votes on VE, yet I was completely skipping reading abuse's votes for no logical reason beyond my own bias. I quote my own example here, but there are many others this game. The rest of the game was straightforward. CR's roleclaim basically guaranteed his lynch on Day 2, geript track claim or not (although that was a pretty sick play). Abuse gave up in the face of difficult odds (and probably insurmountable odds since he was doused). Mafia Play: Mafia just lacked the thread-presence to do anything. CR literally didn't push anything (not sure if I can blame him after rolling scum 9 times in a row) and abuse played solid yet not-so-active. If either of them coordinate their activities better with their mafia partners (i.e. push early on to discredit me), i think the early-game looks very different. As for VE... On September 30 2014 01:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Yeah, I don't think I played poorly at all, Haru can suck a D. It's true that I died D1, but I took the cop with me and left town in SHAMBLES with my association play. e: Like the only reason I was even caught was on outdated meta that everyone just happened to believe. Get outta here. ... this just isn't a very self-critical way of looking at one's play. If you get lynched Day 1 as any alignment, there's often a lot to improve on. I don't want to single out VE, but I think his play is pretty instructive to break down from a mafia perspective. His filter was actually OK for the most part, yet he got lynched Day 1. Why does this happen and what can we learn from it? VE started the game coming out swinging, and while Yamato and I were suspicious of him, this isn't really a big deal in the context of the game. What got VE ultimately killed was his inability to keep this up. This town was not super active or opinionated, and in a town like this, it is extremely important to keep up thread presence in the latter portion of the day. This is because a town without much direction is prone to lynch down the path of least resistance. And this is what ultimately doomed VE. Regardless of how valid people thought my meta case was, VE was an in-active no-show until far too late in the day. 10 votes were piled on him in a matter of hours. And to illustrate how important activity is, look at VE instantly convince DP and Kush that he was "town" 30 minutes left into the day. Had he done such a thing 1-2 hours before, his lynch would have been extraordinarily hard for me to push. Instead, he saved his burst of activity until it was far too late to change anything. | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9856 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
On September 30 2014 07:02 Damdred wrote: Koshi bud calm down and come play some mafia, i like you and playing with you just wish you would not be angry right now Happy Birthday bro. | ||
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Damdred
15669 Posts
good analysis hapa | ||
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geript
10024 Posts
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Oh also a cop. Nice. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38799 Posts
Remove goon add strongarm. Scum now has 15% to win. | ||
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