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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
You should have been talking about both M_Z and slOosh since you claim you thought both were scum. You should have been questioning these players to decide which was the better lynch. Explain how you think your case on M_Z was a slam dunk. Explain why you didn't push your "slam dunk" case. Explain why you were not upset the "slam dunk" case was not getting traction. Explain why when you started asking people to move to M_Z, you didn't talk about the great case you had. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On June 05 2014 23:20 Palmar wrote: Amiko you're wrong. But you can kill me if you promise to agree to a written consent that you're just lynching me because my lynch list after the policy lynch on jabber went: 1. town 2. mafia 3. mafia instead of you who with the benefit of a cop check actually had mafia at no 1. Even if M_Z was lynched, you have a fair path to mislynch town the next day. You can come into the next day saying that although you doubted the other players, the late swaps onto M_Z are really suspicious and you'd rather lynch sqrt/haru. You can also try to work with my comments on Haru since I've shown suspicion of him. Basically, it doesn't matter to me who you want to lynch "tomorrow" because people can change their mind tomorrow. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
(1) you are the scummiest of the three (2) mderg is the least scummy of the three, so it doesn't matter to me a whole lot whether you or fuba dies first. I'd rather kill you first though, since I think if we finish the game tonight probably I don't end the game dead :3 There is also the small possibility that if we leave you alive until tomorrow you will bamboozle Haru into voting for mderg for no good reason. On May 29 2014 09:07 Palmar wrote: I've seen some shit man, you wouldn't even believe. | ||
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HaruRH
Singapore2780 Posts
On June 05 2014 23:32 Amiko wrote: And no, you are the top lynch because there are three people unconfirmed and (1) you are the scummiest of the three (2) mderg is the least scummy of the three, so it doesn't matter to me a whole lot whether you or fuba dies first. I'd rather kill you first though, since I think if we finish the game tonight probably I don't end the game dead :3 There is also the small possibility that if we leave you alive until tomorrow you will bamboozle Haru into voting for mderg for no good reason. Don't make me feel useless man | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
Whether fuba or Palmar is more likely to be scum is only relevant if you are willing to vote off mderg as scum. I'm not and I don't see any adequate grounds to change my mind so that's what I need to see from Palmar/fuba before even considering moving my vote. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote: First let's talk about why Palmar's points are unconvincing. 1) Palmar's vote on ninjabunnies means nothing Mafia make cases they don't intend to push, and mafia talk to each other. Even if that were not true, I don't think Palmar gets any credit for this given that he didn't actually push or do anything with that case, anyway. Take a look at ninjabunnies' reaction - she's the one being "attacked" and she doesn't care because the case is so obviously meaningless http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#175 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#177 I haven't played with NB before and I'm not a prophet. There is no way I can predict how she would react to me making a weak case on her. The case is still correct, it just doesn't mean she's mafia. That shit happens all the time in mafia. On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote: (2) Palmar hasn't actually bussed his team Palmar may have argued with gobble and said he would support a slOosh lynch. However, those words are not consistent with his action. On day 2, Palmar resisted a slOosh lynch in favor of M_Z. Further, look at his discussion that day. Even if Palmar thought M_Z was a better lynch, he doesn't weigh in on slOosh except to say that he would vote for him. He doesn't actually vote for him, doesn't really explain why M_Z is a better lynch. Although he says his lynch on M_Z is a slam dunk (despite it being weak) he doesn't even attempt to push his case. When he tries to convince people to move to M_Z, he doesn't discuss the merits (the "slam dunk") part at all, and only goes with the WIFOM "too easy" argument. Further, after telling people to vote for their top scumread on day 1, he tells people not to vote for the "too easy" lynch on day 2. To me, this all looks like someone who is eager to get votes off a scum partner. If Palmar was town and thought slOosh would be mafia, his day 2 should have spent trying to get reads to distinguish between the players and figure out which was more scummy. He should have at least weighed in on the slOosh case and provided some explanation. Your case on Sloosh wasn't wrong. There is no point for me to argue about the merits of the case. In a world where MZ doesn't exist I would have just sheeped your case. I actually intended to do that until I got cold feet regarding how easy the wagon was. I'm still sort of surprised it was this easy, but I guess gobble actually being mafia explained some of it. My argument was never that your case was wrong, my argument was that my case on MZ was really good. However I reached the wrong conclusions for the right reasons on MZ. I proved that he wasn't reading the thread and wasn't actively trying to solve the game, but I neglected the conclusion that he might be lazy and apathetic town. Just like you (and others) are now using correct arguments (I tried to divert a mafia lynch) to reach the wrong conclusion (I'm mafia). The difference is that unlike MZ I'm going to actually respond and explain until there is nothing left, I am a vengeful bastard and I want you guys to feel bad about not having listened or appreciated the efforts if you end up lynching me anyway. I don't waste time when I'm playing mafia. I see no reason to post when town is doing what I want it to be doing. I was okay with Sloosh getting the lynch until later in the day. If I was mafia and planned to defend him I probably would've done it earlier and not just based on wagon speed. But hey, ignore that. On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote: If Palmar actually thought the M_Z case was better, why was he so inactive day 2? Why didn't he try to get anyone to join the losing wagon he was so sure about? Why didn't he talk about the merits of slOosh at all? He doesn't even say anything like "If M_Z does flip town, slOosh dies next." He doesn't talk with anyone who begins to townread slOosh to try to convince him otherwise. Palmar may have said he doubted slOosh, but his play reflects a strong desire not to lynch slOosh. On the contrary. Me not doing stuff means exactly that I'm happy with whatever it is town is doing, or at least that I don't really mind it. That's the entire point. Your argument doesn't fit any reasonable mafia strategy. You're saying I initially decided to bus Sloosh and then decided to not do it anymore way later. I'm not this incompetent as mafia dude. When you drop the case I make a decision on what I want to do, and I either bus him for credit or defend him by breaking your case. Your case was good, you KNOW your case was good. If I'm mafia and don't want sloosh to die I would have to dismantle it immediately. Your explanation does not fit. On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote: (3) Palmar defending fuba doesn't mean anything to me First off, Palmar's point here misreads the situation. At the time we were talking, the wagons were M_Z and slOosh. Fuba was not the most likely person for town to get behind lynching. Second, this isn't really defending fuba at all. It's just admitting someone's play is weird and still calling them town. If anything, it leaves the door open for Palmar to try to mislynch fuba later (because fuba's play is weird). Yes but I didn't really need to call him town. And yes, it was not a strong townread. I haven't still went back and found what triggered the townread, but I made it for some reason. The backtracking strategy you're claiming is actually awful, because if I'm mafia I need two mislynches here, not one. It woul be ok if I needed just one. I can't do the "contemplate my reads" thing twice. On June 05 2014 23:11 Amiko wrote: (4) lol I actually expected scum-Palmar to make this point. Even if it wasn't a terrible point (and it is) it doesn't actually matter because mderg and fuba were lazy too. It also doesn't explain your inactive play on d2, where you should have been quite active since two people you suspected were on the chopping block. More in a bit :3 Again you're saying "you should have done something" that doesn't fit with how I actually think. I'm usually the most active when I think townies are up for a lynch, or I have to fight for something. It isn't a terrible point. What's the point of being active when the people I want to lynch are on the chopping block? That's exactly the time to not do anything because there isn't anything to argue for. I already explained this to you during the MZ lynch. I thought MZ was mafia, what's the point of trying to figure out if Slam is mafia or not. It's a complete waste of time. You're making a huge logical leap here. You assume that people acting how you WANT them to act to be how they WILL act. And you're risking the game on you being cocky. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On June 05 2014 23:23 Amiko wrote: I'll also mention that I think it's more likely I would be roleblocked or killed D1 since I was playing pretty towny, yet I wasn't. I think townreading Palmar may have helped with that  If you allow yourself to condemn me for the actions of the mafia you're being awful. This is terrible. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On June 05 2014 19:33 Palmar wrote: Sloosh got lynched anyway. Why on earth did I not try to at least milk some credit for it by switching back or someting, If you think I'm mafia I already brought up that sloosh was scummy and I might throw my weight behind the case. It makes no sense for me to let him be lynched and leave myself in a worse position before. Palmar could have switched until his play at the end of the day. With (I think) less than two hours left, Palmar finally gave some comments that distinguished between the two lynches: he said that the case on M_Z was better (it wasn't) and that the slOosh lynch was "too easy" (it wasn't). After he committed to those comments, he could not switch back to slOosh without looking very scummy or going into my "trap" comment. Given how close the votes were, I don't think he would want to, anyway. On June 05 2014 19:33 Palmar wrote: It's just pointless. It's almost sort of insulting that you guys think I'm mafia because in order to believe that I'm mafia you also have to believe I'm incapable of forming a winning strategy, there is literally no path to victory for me even if gobble hadn't gotten killed. I don't understand this point. Let's say you are scum and gobble didn't get killed. In this case, gobble votes M_Z over his scumpartner. At that point, it'd look like this - we'll assume for the moment ninjabunnies still gets shot: 5) slOosh 6) gobbledydook 7) Palmar 8) mderg 9) fuba 10) HaruRH 11) sqrtofneg1 12) Amiko 13) Alakaslam In what way does that foreclose a winning strategy? You'd be in great shape. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: Give a good explanation for your day 2. Ok. On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: You should have been talking about both M_Z and slOosh since you claim you thought both were scum. No I shouldn't. You think I should, but that isn't how everyone thinks. On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: You should have been questioning these players to decide which was the better lynch. Why? Both players had good cases on them. I thought mine was better but clearly it wasn't. I really had no problem with a sloosh lynch initially, and I said as much. On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: Explain how you think your case on M_Z was a slam dunk. He didn't read the thread and instead threw out a random buzzphrase "trying to back out of the read". The main point is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21429355 On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: Explain why you didn't push your "slam dunk" case. I was fine with your case on Sloosh. There's a reason I said "I might throw my lynch behind a sloosh lynch". I mean this may be hard for you to understand, but I was actually telling the truth... huh! On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: Explain why you were not upset the "slam dunk" case was not getting traction. Because I was fine with a Sloosh lynch initially. For some reason everyone thinks I'm an egoistical bastard that refuses to listen to anyone but himself (it's half true, I am egoistical), but intelligent sheeping is a strong part of my game. I knew you were town, I liked your case, so I wasn't really in a hurry to lynch MZ. On June 05 2014 23:25 Amiko wrote: Explain why when you started asking people to move to M_Z, you didn't talk about the great case you had. I did, I said it was slam dunk etc. Did you want me to say the same thing again... maybe translate to spanish for slam? I don't see a point in restating my case over and over again. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On June 05 2014 23:32 Amiko wrote: And no, you are the top lynch because there are three people unconfirmed and (1) you are the scummiest of the three (2) mderg is the least scummy of the three, so it doesn't matter to me a whole lot whether you or fuba dies first. I'd rather kill you first though, since I think if we finish the game tonight probably I don't end the game dead :3 There is also the small possibility that if we leave you alive until tomorrow you will bamboozle Haru into voting for mderg for no good reason. Objection! That's subjective bullshit. | ||
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fuba
United States663 Posts
Mderg disagrees with the jabber lynch in his first post. He says I'm his top scumread based on me not immediately giving a reason for my vote, but doesn't respond in any way to my actual reasoning. This is the EXACT SAME THING that gobble did all game. Mderg really, really hard defends jabber, but despite a scumread on me for my super scummy vote w/o explanation, he doesn't place a vote. He doesn't try to get people off of jabber, he just tries to show that he's defending a townie. Chrom mentions this here: On May 29 2014 06:12 mderg wrote: The thing is that it´s difficult to make cases, if everyone does the same. It´s not like I have completely ignored others but sadly there´s limited information to go on. Chrom is incredibly critical of mderg's play D1, and he ends up dead D2. D2 he votes MZ, disappears for 23 hours, then switches to SlOosh. At the point he switches to SlOosh, the impetus is pretty strong behind that wagon. There's pretty much no way scum can lynch MZ unless all three of them jump onto him, something that scum rarely like to do. He also really firmly agrees with what Amiko says, so it could very easily be a bus. This firm agreement also makes it really difficult to back off of, especially if he tries to do it to mislynch MZ and we later find that SlOosh is scum. Mderg couldn't have switched his vote without looking really, really suspicious. He's then roleblocked N2, which made him look even more townie after the lynch. Could be real, but could also be solidifying him as town after a successful bus. The SlOosh lynch and the roleblock made me kinda ignore mderg as a suspect, but after filtering him he could certainly be the last scum. I'll look at palmar after class, but I think the thing I found scummiest about him was how quickly he appeared when I questioned the SlOosh lynch. Maybe he's town and he's being honest about not being able to play a lot on the weekend, maybe he's scum and he saw an opportunity to throw the thread into chaos D3 and secure a mislynch. That's really the only thing about that situation that I found really scummy about him though, since he'd been on MZ forever and clearly wanted MZ lynched over sloosh the entire time. Class time, be back later~ | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote: I haven't played with NB before and I'm not a prophet. There is no way I can predict how she would react to me making a weak case on her. The case is still correct, it just doesn't mean she's mafia. That shit happens all the time in mafia. You misunderstand why I posted bunnies reaction. The post is that your case was not seen as serious, and when you pressed it people responded (as they should) doubting its sincerity. Bunnies' reaction just goes to show how little pressure your case provided. Anyway, you have nothing to lose by making that kind of case as mafia, maybe if you're lucky she OMGUSes you and you use that to try to support the lynch. On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote: Your case on Sloosh wasn't wrong. There is no point for me to argue about the merits of the case. In a world where MZ doesn't exist I would have just sheeped your case. I actually intended to do that until I got cold feet regarding how easy the wagon was. Part of my case was that slOosh was M_Z, except more scummy. If you thought my case was right, you shouldn't have been on M_Z. If you didn't think that was correct, you didn't agree with me and should have tried to convince me on the merits. On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote: I don't waste time when I'm playing mafia. I see no reason to post when town is doing what I want it to be doing. I was okay with Sloosh getting the lynch until later in the day. If I was mafia and planned to defend him I probably would've done it earlier and not just based on wagon speed. But hey, ignore that. ... I'm not this incompetent as mafia dude. When you drop the case I make a decision on what I want to do, and I either bus him for credit or defend him by breaking your case. Your case was good, you KNOW your case was good. If I'm mafia and don't want sloosh to die I would have to dismantle it immediately. Your explanation does not fit. I scumhunt even when I think I have caught scum. Anyway, you start pushing for M_Z only after fuba has made a case for people to switch to M_Z. I think you could accurately predict sqrt and Haru could be moved (because I thought they could be moved too). On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote: The backtracking strategy you're claiming is actually awful, because if I'm mafia I need two mislynches here, not one. It woul be ok if I needed just one. I can't do the "contemplate my reads" thing twice. Why not? You just say "I guess I was wrong, so it must be XYZ" Anyway, for all you know, the cop has no checks. It's possible that the cop checked players who had died. It's possible that you roleblocked the cop on days the cop would check living players. And, you don't know who the cop or medic are. If you are lucky, maybe Slam will flip as one of the blue roles. For all you know, your strategy is a winning strategy because it's possible there will only be one blue (who you could kill tonight). The idea that you didn't make a winning strategy is incorrect because it considers information you did not know. Given the information you did know, your strategy was fine. On June 05 2014 23:47 Palmar wrote: And you're risking the game on you being cocky. If you are town, you certainly risked the game with your play on day 2 and day 3. It doesn't matter. The game is at risk until it's over. That's the nature of the game. (Anyway play has been pretty great, I can't believe you guys didn't roleblock me n2) | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On June 05 2014 23:49 Amiko wrote: Palmar could have switched until his play at the end of the day. With (I think) less than two hours left, Palmar finally gave some comments that distinguished between the two lynches: he said that the case on M_Z was better (it wasn't) and that the slOosh lynch was "too easy" (it wasn't). After he committed to those comments, he could not switch back to slOosh without looking very scummy or going into my "trap" comment. Given how close the votes were, I don't think he would want to, anyway. Well the bolded just proves my point, you want to lynch me because my list of top scumreads went town, mafia, mafia, and not mafia --- whatever. The sloosh lynch was too easy. In hindsight the reason was that gobbley was afk and mafia had no presence, but I could not possibly have known that. I don't even know what your trap comment is. On June 05 2014 23:49 Amiko wrote: I don't understand this point. Let's say you are scum and gobble didn't get killed. In this case, gobble votes M_Z over his scumpartner. At that point, it'd look like this - we'll assume for the moment ninjabunnies still gets shot: 5) slOosh 6) gobbledydook 7) Palmar 8) mderg 9) fuba 10) HaruRH 11) sqrtofneg1 12) Amiko 13) Alakaslam In what way does that foreclose a winning strategy? You'd be in great shape. No, because we've all sided on the same side. Any competent strategy splits us on day 2 so we have the opportunity to unite for a day 3. Saving sloosh wasn't worth it. I would never do it as mafia. | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
On June 06 2014 00:03 Palmar wrote: Objection! That's subjective bullshit. Make your case on mderg already. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
I cannot play as much on weekends, I'll provide links to prove it: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21262920 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=21045213 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20957916 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20960223 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20827739 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=20752441 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=19865612 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17447313 | ||
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Amiko
United States1725 Posts
You don't have to have your votes split d2 because there are still plenty of wagons you can unite behind. You can try to attack the people who swapped for a mislynch (Haru, sqrt, fuba) And, you can bus slOosh the next day if you need to. It doesn't matter if all three of you vote M_Z. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
Maybe I don't want to. Only one of them is mafia. First I need to decide which one it is. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On June 06 2014 00:16 Amiko wrote: You ignore the point of the votes. You don't have to have your votes split d2 because there are still plenty of wagons you can unite behind. You can try to attack the people who swapped for a mislynch (Haru, sqrt, fuba) And, you can bus slOosh the next day if you need to. It doesn't matter if all three of you vote M_Z. Who cares. I'm telling you. I would not do what I did as mafia. I think it's a terrible strategy. | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
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