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On June 05 2014 19:04 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 18:34 Palmar wrote:On June 05 2014 10:13 fuba wrote:
##Vote: Palmar
I can agree with the first half of the lynch list XD You too. Case please. I doubt we need a case now to choose who is mafia. Given that amiko and sqrt are not lying (no counterclaims by anyone, thus they both shouldn't be lying) and given that amiko proves I am VT, this creates a bubble of town around us 3 and anyone else have the remote chance of being mafia. There is no way that either of us 4 (other than sqrt and amiko) will die this night since unless they kill off both of them, tomorrow will be their funeral. mderg have the chance of being mafia, but we can discuss this tomorrow when we choose between fuba and mderg. So far, even though I recognise that fuba is a better lynch target, we still need to lynch you as more people suspect you as mafia over others.
This is incorrect logic.
Everyone knows exactly why I wanted to lynch meapak. I repeatedly gave my reasons. Too bad my reasons also applied to a lazy apathetic townie (not reading the thread, making asinine statements etc).
If you lynch me today, you will have to decide tomorrow between fuba and mderg, as the rest are confirmed by mechanics. Yes I agree, I could just roll over assuming I'm convinced one of the other two is mafia, but that is accepting a mislynch. I'm not MZ, I don't lay down and die like a good boy. I hate being lynched as town, especially for no reasons at all.
Ideally I'd like you all to give reasons, because you're using terrible reasons to lynch me because you guys are refusing to read the thread for some reason. At least that would give me satisfaction post game.
Amiko read me 100% correctly on day 1. He decided to just say "well fuck that, palmar thought MZ was mafia". I have no idea why.
Even if you guys (the confirmed players) have no intention of doing anything other than lynch me today, you should absolutely force fuba and mderg into doing what I'm doing. It's dumb as hell not to do it. Just threaten them with a lynch. Move your votes to them (especially fuba) until he comes back and actually does anything.
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On June 05 2014 19:07 HaruRH wrote:
At that point in time, slosh and gobble were the huge suspects for scum. It is wise to quickly cut off all ties with them to protect the remaining scum, that is the mafia rb. It would be a bad mafia play to not do these that you mentioned - if you didn't do them, you're scumread.
Almost no one was talking about gobble.
So why didn't I bus sloosh then and try to protect gobble? Wouldn't that make more sense?
Your logic is awful.
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On June 05 2014 19:11 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:04 HaruRH wrote:On June 05 2014 18:34 Palmar wrote:On June 05 2014 10:13 fuba wrote:
##Vote: Palmar
I can agree with the first half of the lynch list XD You too. Case please. I doubt we need a case now to choose who is mafia. Given that amiko and sqrt are not lying (no counterclaims by anyone, thus they both shouldn't be lying) and given that amiko proves I am VT, this creates a bubble of town around us 3 and anyone else have the remote chance of being mafia. There is no way that either of us 4 (other than sqrt and amiko) will die this night since unless they kill off both of them, tomorrow will be their funeral. mderg have the chance of being mafia, but we can discuss this tomorrow when we choose between fuba and mderg. So far, even though I recognise that fuba is a better lynch target, we still need to lynch you as more people suspect you as mafia over others. This is incorrect logic. Everyone knows exactly why I wanted to lynch meapak. I repeatedly gave my reasons. Too bad my reasons also applied to a lazy apathetic townie (not reading the thread, making asinine statements etc). If you lynch me today, you will have to decide tomorrow between fuba and mderg, as the rest are confirmed by mechanics. Yes I agree, I could just roll over assuming I'm convinced one of the other two is mafia, but that is accepting a mislynch. I'm not MZ, I don't lay down and die like a good boy. I hate being lynched as town, especially for no reasons at all. Ideally I'd like you all to give reasons, because you're using terrible reasons to lynch me because you guys are refusing to read the thread for some reason. At least that would give me satisfaction post game. Amiko read me 100% correctly on day 1. He decided to just say "well fuck that, palmar thought MZ was mafia". I have no idea why. Even if you guys (the confirmed players) have no intention of doing anything other than lynch me today, you should absolutely force fuba and mderg into doing what I'm doing. It's dumb as hell not to do it. Just threaten them with a lynch. Move your votes to them (especially fuba) until he comes back and actually does anything.
Stop giving me a townread, now I have to move my votes over to fuba you sicko.
##Unvote: Palmar
##Vote: Fuba
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On June 05 2014 19:12 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:07 HaruRH wrote:
At that point in time, slosh and gobble were the huge suspects for scum. It is wise to quickly cut off all ties with them to protect the remaining scum, that is the mafia rb. It would be a bad mafia play to not do these that you mentioned - if you didn't do them, you're scumread. Almost no one was talking about gobble. So why didn't I bus sloosh then and try to protect gobble? Wouldn't that make more sense? Your logic is awful.
Why would you want to protect gobble? Gobble would certainly be lynched d3 if he did not modkill himself.
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On June 05 2014 19:04 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 18:34 Palmar wrote:On June 05 2014 10:13 fuba wrote:
##Vote: Palmar
I can agree with the first half of the lynch list XD You too. Case please. I doubt we need a case now to choose who is mafia. Given that amiko and sqrt are not lying (no counterclaims by anyone, thus they both shouldn't be lying) and given that amiko proves I am VT, this creates a bubble of town around us 3 and anyone else have the remote chance of being mafia. There is no way that either of us 4 (other than sqrt and amiko) will die this night since unless they kill off both of them, tomorrow will be their funeral. mderg have the chance of being mafia, but we can discuss this tomorrow when we choose between fuba and mderg. So far, even though I recognise that fuba is a better lynch target, we still need to lynch you as more people suspect you as mafia over others.
You think fuba would be the best lynch target? If so, you should probably try to push that lynch. It´s not like you have to be in favor of lynching Palmar just because the majority wants to lynch him.
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On June 05 2014 19:16 mderg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:04 HaruRH wrote:On June 05 2014 18:34 Palmar wrote:On June 05 2014 10:13 fuba wrote:
##Vote: Palmar
I can agree with the first half of the lynch list XD You too. Case please. I doubt we need a case now to choose who is mafia. Given that amiko and sqrt are not lying (no counterclaims by anyone, thus they both shouldn't be lying) and given that amiko proves I am VT, this creates a bubble of town around us 3 and anyone else have the remote chance of being mafia. There is no way that either of us 4 (other than sqrt and amiko) will die this night since unless they kill off both of them, tomorrow will be their funeral. mderg have the chance of being mafia, but we can discuss this tomorrow when we choose between fuba and mderg. So far, even though I recognise that fuba is a better lynch target, we still need to lynch you as more people suspect you as mafia over others. You think fuba would be the best lynch target? If so, you should probably try to push that lynch. It´s not like you have to be in favor of lynching Palmar just because the majority wants to lynch him.
Yes, I still think fuba is the best lynch target today. My huge post about fuba being the biggest target still stands.
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On June 05 2014 19:14 HaruRH wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:12 Palmar wrote:On June 05 2014 19:07 HaruRH wrote:
At that point in time, slosh and gobble were the huge suspects for scum. It is wise to quickly cut off all ties with them to protect the remaining scum, that is the mafia rb. It would be a bad mafia play to not do these that you mentioned - if you didn't do them, you're scumread. Almost no one was talking about gobble. So why didn't I bus sloosh then and try to protect gobble? Wouldn't that make more sense? Your logic is awful. Why would you want to protect gobble? Gobble would certainly be lynched d3 if he did not modkill himself.
Why? MZ was up there, fuba was still a possibility.
I can't win against a cop I don't know who is if I'm solo. It doesn't work.
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On June 05 2014 19:16 mderg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:04 HaruRH wrote:On June 05 2014 18:34 Palmar wrote:On June 05 2014 10:13 fuba wrote:
##Vote: Palmar
I can agree with the first half of the lynch list XD You too. Case please. I doubt we need a case now to choose who is mafia. Given that amiko and sqrt are not lying (no counterclaims by anyone, thus they both shouldn't be lying) and given that amiko proves I am VT, this creates a bubble of town around us 3 and anyone else have the remote chance of being mafia. There is no way that either of us 4 (other than sqrt and amiko) will die this night since unless they kill off both of them, tomorrow will be their funeral. mderg have the chance of being mafia, but we can discuss this tomorrow when we choose between fuba and mderg. So far, even though I recognise that fuba is a better lynch target, we still need to lynch you as more people suspect you as mafia over others. You think fuba would be the best lynch target? If so, you should probably try to push that lynch. It´s not like you have to be in favor of lynching Palmar just because the majority wants to lynch him.
From your POV, no matter your actual alignment, you are town.
Which way are you leaning?
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Some thoughts on Palmar:
I didn´t really like Palmar´s play at the start, he voted bunnies for questionable reasons, it seemed like he was trolling but he said that he wasn´t. The reasons he later gave for that were kinda meh.
He was strongly in favor of lynching jwz and MZ and was wrong on every lynch so far. While that in itself is not a big tell, I got the feeling that he didn´t look beyond these two scumreads and just wanted to secure these misslynches.
What speaks in his favor is this:
On May 30 2014 16:23 Palmar wrote:
I think I could throw my weight behind a sloosh vote.
I have a feeling the mafia team is sloosh, MZ, Gobbley
He didn´t really push sloosh and gobble, though. Especially going against the sloosh lynch was strange. Amiko´s case on sloosh looked better than Palmar´s case on MZ but Palmar stayed on MZ because his case was "more slam dunk".
The MZ lynch itself isn´t really alignment indicative because about everyone wanted to lynch him and he certainly did look like mafia.
This is actually not as much as I thought it would be. I could see scum motivation behind almost everything but calling out sloosh and gobble so early in the game would be really ballsy.
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On May 30 2014 22:26 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 21:41 gobbledydook wrote:On May 30 2014 21:37 Palmar wrote:
so who is mafia then gobbley? My strongest read so far is fuba because of the way he's accusing me. I have skimmed through the sloosh arguments, and I'll come up with a detailed read like this one later. Better idea: find me 5 people tho you strongly consider to be town.
if fuba is mafia sloosh was targeting him early, this thing went both ways.
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On June 05 2014 19:21 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:16 mderg wrote:On June 05 2014 19:04 HaruRH wrote:On June 05 2014 18:34 Palmar wrote:On June 05 2014 10:13 fuba wrote:
##Vote: Palmar
I can agree with the first half of the lynch list XD You too. Case please. I doubt we need a case now to choose who is mafia. Given that amiko and sqrt are not lying (no counterclaims by anyone, thus they both shouldn't be lying) and given that amiko proves I am VT, this creates a bubble of town around us 3 and anyone else have the remote chance of being mafia. There is no way that either of us 4 (other than sqrt and amiko) will die this night since unless they kill off both of them, tomorrow will be their funeral. mderg have the chance of being mafia, but we can discuss this tomorrow when we choose between fuba and mderg. So far, even though I recognise that fuba is a better lynch target, we still need to lynch you as more people suspect you as mafia over others. You think fuba would be the best lynch target? If so, you should probably try to push that lynch. It´s not like you have to be in favor of lynching Palmar just because the majority wants to lynch him. From your POV, no matter your actual alignment, you are town. Which way are you leaning?
I need to reread fuba´s filter but right now I think you are more likely to be scum.
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On June 05 2014 19:22 mderg wrote:
Some thoughts on Palmar:
I didn´t really like Palmar´s play at the start, he voted bunnies for questionable reasons, it seemed like he was trolling but he said that he wasn´t. The reasons he later gave for that were kinda meh.
At the time the reasons were fine. I wasn't trolling, but I also wasn't going to lynch her based on that. She did something different from last game, I pointed it out. Sometimes people do different things because they're in a different mood, or just because they feel like it, it doesn't always make them mafia.
Hence, I backed off and called her town reasonably early. I also never brought it up again, because after I actually read the game and the game progressed, that weak read became more and more obsolete.
On June 05 2014 19:22 mderg wrote:He was strongly in favor of lynching jwz and MZ and was wrong on every lynch so far. While that in itself is not a big tell, I got the feeling that he didn´t look beyond these two scumreads and just wanted to secure these misslynches. What speaks in his favor is this: Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 16:23 Palmar wrote:
I think I could throw my weight behind a sloosh vote.
I have a feeling the mafia team is sloosh, MZ, Gobbley He didn´t really push sloosh and gobble, though. Especially going against the sloosh lynch was strange. Amiko´s case on sloosh looked better than Palmar´s case on MZ but Palmar stayed on MZ because his case was "more slam dunk".
Yes. To understand this you have to understand few things
1) When meapak wrote the thing about me trying to back out of a read when I was explaining it, I became 100% sure he was mafia. I do not remember any other instance of MZ just saying blatantly wrong things due to lack of actually reading. Clearly I was wrong, but I was quite convinced.
2) Sloosh got lynched anyway. Why on earth did I not try to at least milk some credit for it by switching back or someting, If you think I'm mafia I already brought up that sloosh was scummy and I might throw my weight behind the case. It makes no sense for me to let him be lynched and leave myself in a worse position before.
3) I was honestly skeptical of how easily the case on Sloosh was building traction. It was a strong case, I initially agreed with it, as is apparent by my posting, hell I always agreed with it. I just felt something was off and I also believed strongly MZ was mafia.
On June 05 2014 19:22 mderg wrote:
The MZ lynch itself isn´t really alignment indicative because about everyone wanted to lynch him and he certainly did look like mafia.
This is actually not as much as I thought it would be. I could see scum motivation behind almost everything but calling out sloosh and gobble so early in the game would be really ballsy.[/QUOTE]
It's just pointless. It's almost sort of insulting that you guys think I'm mafia because in order to believe that I'm mafia you also have to believe I'm incapable of forming a winning strategy, there is literally no path to victory for me even if gobble hadn't gotten killed.
But then again, maybe the reason people think I'm mafia despite it being logically impossible for me to be is because reading is hard.
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some formatting mess there, but I think you guys get the gist.
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On June 05 2014 19:33 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:22 mderg wrote:He was strongly in favor of lynching jwz and MZ and was wrong on every lynch so far. While that in itself is not a big tell, I got the feeling that he didn´t look beyond these two scumreads and just wanted to secure these misslynches. What speaks in his favor is this: On May 30 2014 16:23 Palmar wrote:
I think I could throw my weight behind a sloosh vote.
I have a feeling the mafia team is sloosh, MZ, Gobbley He didn´t really push sloosh and gobble, though. Especially going against the sloosh lynch was strange. Amiko´s case on sloosh looked better than Palmar´s case on MZ but Palmar stayed on MZ because his case was "more slam dunk". Yes. To understand this you have to understand few things 1) When meapak wrote the thing about me trying to back out of a read when I was explaining it, I became 100% sure he was mafia. I do not remember any other instance of MZ just saying blatantly wrong things due to lack of actually reading. Clearly I was wrong, but I was quite convinced. 2) Sloosh got lynched anyway. Why on earth did I not try to at least milk some credit for it by switching back or someting, If you think I'm mafia I already brought up that sloosh was scummy and I might throw my weight behind the case. It makes no sense for me to let him be lynched and leave myself in a worse position before. 3) I was honestly skeptical of how easily the case on Sloosh was building traction. It was a strong case, I initially agreed with it, as is apparent by my posting, hell I always agreed with it. I just felt something was off and I also believed strongly MZ was mafia. Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:22 mderg wrote:
The MZ lynch itself isn´t really alignment indicative because about everyone wanted to lynch him and he certainly did look like mafia.
This is actually not as much as I thought it would be. I could see scum motivation behind almost everything but calling out sloosh and gobble so early in the game would be really ballsy. It's just pointless. It's almost sort of insulting that you guys think I'm mafia because in order to believe that I'm mafia you also have to believe I'm incapable of forming a winning strategy, there is literally no path to victory for me even if gobble hadn't gotten killed. But then again, maybe the reason people think I'm mafia despite it being logically impossible for me to be is because reading is hard.
1) I agree that MZ looked scummy but I still think Amiko´s case on sloosh was stronger than your case on MZ. This may be because you have played much more games with MZ but for me the sloosh case was stronger.
2) That reasoning kinda applies to all 3 possible lynch candidates. I could have changed my vote from sloosh to MZ on day 2 and fuba pressured gobble pretty hard at some point. So that doesn´t work stronger in your favor than for anyone else.
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On June 05 2014 19:52 mderg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2014 19:33 Palmar wrote:On June 05 2014 19:22 mderg wrote:He was strongly in favor of lynching jwz and MZ and was wrong on every lynch so far. While that in itself is not a big tell, I got the feeling that he didn´t look beyond these two scumreads and just wanted to secure these misslynches. What speaks in his favor is this: On May 30 2014 16:23 Palmar wrote:
I think I could throw my weight behind a sloosh vote.
I have a feeling the mafia team is sloosh, MZ, Gobbley He didn´t really push sloosh and gobble, though. Especially going against the sloosh lynch was strange. Amiko´s case on sloosh looked better than Palmar´s case on MZ but Palmar stayed on MZ because his case was "more slam dunk". Yes. To understand this you have to understand few things 1) When meapak wrote the thing about me trying to back out of a read when I was explaining it, I became 100% sure he was mafia. I do not remember any other instance of MZ just saying blatantly wrong things due to lack of actually reading. Clearly I was wrong, but I was quite convinced. 2) Sloosh got lynched anyway. Why on earth did I not try to at least milk some credit for it by switching back or someting, If you think I'm mafia I already brought up that sloosh was scummy and I might throw my weight behind the case. It makes no sense for me to let him be lynched and leave myself in a worse position before. 3) I was honestly skeptical of how easily the case on Sloosh was building traction. It was a strong case, I initially agreed with it, as is apparent by my posting, hell I always agreed with it. I just felt something was off and I also believed strongly MZ was mafia. On June 05 2014 19:22 mderg wrote:
The MZ lynch itself isn´t really alignment indicative because about everyone wanted to lynch him and he certainly did look like mafia.
This is actually not as much as I thought it would be. I could see scum motivation behind almost everything but calling out sloosh and gobble so early in the game would be really ballsy. It's just pointless. It's almost sort of insulting that you guys think I'm mafia because in order to believe that I'm mafia you also have to believe I'm incapable of forming a winning strategy, there is literally no path to victory for me even if gobble hadn't gotten killed. But then again, maybe the reason people think I'm mafia despite it being logically impossible for me to be is because reading is hard. 1) I agree that MZ looked scummy but I still think Amiko´s case on sloosh was stronger than your case on MZ. This may be because you have played much more games with MZ but for me the sloosh case was stronger. 2) That reasoning kinda applies to all 3 possible lynch candidates. I could have changed my vote from sloosh to MZ on day 2 and fuba pressured gobble pretty hard at some point. So that doesn´t work stronger in your favor than for anyone else.
1) I engage in hyperbole to get what I want. I wanted a MZ lynch so I said my case was better. In hindsight obviously Amiko's case was better.
2) Doesn't matter. I'm not mafia.
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First let's talk about why Palmar's points are unconvincing.
1) Palmar's vote on ninjabunnies means nothing
Mafia make cases they don't intend to push, and mafia talk to each other.
Even if that were not true, I don't think Palmar gets any credit for this given that he didn't actually push or do anything with that case, anyway.
Take a look at ninjabunnies' reaction - she's the one being "attacked" and she doesn't care because the case is so obviously meaningless
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#175
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/451317-detention-mafia?page=9#177
(2) Palmar hasn't actually bussed his team
Palmar may have argued with gobble and said he would support a slOosh lynch.
However, those words are not consistent with his action.
On day 2, Palmar resisted a slOosh lynch in favor of M_Z.
Further, look at his discussion that day.
Even if Palmar thought M_Z was a better lynch, he doesn't weigh in on slOosh except to say that he would vote for him. He doesn't actually vote for him, doesn't really explain why M_Z is a better lynch. Although he says his lynch on M_Z is a slam dunk (despite it being weak) he doesn't even attempt to push his case. When he tries to convince people to move to M_Z, he doesn't discuss the merits (the "slam dunk") part at all, and only goes with the WIFOM "too easy" argument.
Further, after telling people to vote for their top scumread on day 1, he tells people not to vote for the "too easy" lynch on day 2. To me, this all looks like someone who is eager to get votes off a scum partner.
If Palmar was town and thought slOosh would be mafia, his day 2 should have spent trying to get reads to distinguish between the players and figure out which was more scummy. He should have at least weighed in on the slOosh case and provided some explanation.
If Palmar actually thought the M_Z case was better, why was he so inactive day 2?
Why didn't he try to get anyone to join the losing wagon he was so sure about?
Why didn't he talk about the merits of slOosh at all?
He doesn't even say anything like "If M_Z does flip town, slOosh dies next." He doesn't talk with anyone who begins to townread slOosh to try to convince him otherwise.
Palmar may have said he doubted slOosh, but his play reflects a strong desire not to lynch slOosh.
(3) Palmar defending fuba doesn't mean anything to me
First off, Palmar's point here misreads the situation.
On June 05 2014 18:50 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 08:43 Amiko wrote:
Please explain this (Palmar & fuba):
How do you not vote slOosh when nearly everything suspicious about M_Z also applies to slOosh, plus slOosh is scummier in other ways?
@Palmar:
You should also join my lynch on slOosh because fuba's play today is weird and he is pushing M_Z - if you don't see that I can argue about it. I think fuba is town, I don't care if his play is weird. This sloosh lynch is going too easily. We should do MZ.
If I'm mafia, why am I defending fuba, who is (at the time and still is) the most likely person for town to get behind lynching. It doesn't make any sense.
[/Quote]
At the time we were talking, the wagons were M_Z and slOosh. Fuba was not the most likely person for town to get behind lynching.
Second, this isn't really defending fuba at all. It's just admitting someone's play is weird and still calling them town.
If anything, it leaves the door open for Palmar to try to mislynch fuba later (because fuba's play is weird).
(4) lol
On June 05 2014 18:50 Palmar wrote:
Regarding lazy on MZ lynch day
I don't see how this has anything to do with my alignment. Hell, if I am mafia I would like to think I'd actually have continued playing on that day, mostly because I'd have known this was a mislynch and I needed some continuation strategy. What I did instead was to fuck off and leave no strategy for myself as mafia.
So please, heads out of asses, I'm not the mafia we're looking for.
I actually expected scum-Palmar to make this point.
Even if it wasn't a terrible point (and it is) it doesn't actually matter because mderg and fuba were lazy too.
It also doesn't explain your inactive play on d2, where you should have been quite active since two people you suspected were on the chopping block.
More in a bit :3
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Whoever is mafia shoots slam because:
(1) They are almost certainly going to shoot someone who voted for slOosh over M_Z as these people are most towny
(2) Slam is unlikely to get a medic save, whereas mderg and Amiko have a fair chance at being medic saved or WIFOM saved. And on the off chance Amiko is medic, he probably saves mderg.
(3) Slam is a good kill because most people would expect him to get cop checked since he is tough to read and most people aren't calling him town outright.
Palmar actually has more incentive to shoot Slam precisely because he called most people (besides Slam) town.
By shooting someone he considers a suspect, Palmar must now "reevaluate" his reads because his suspect is dead.
This gives Palmar some justification for changing his reads to whatever suits the situation - he doesn't know who he has to call scum yet, it depends on the blue claims. Now, he's in a position where he can seem to read anyone he has to as scum.
(Btw sqrt, this is sort of like how scum-Eden killed town-Yellow in last game, even though he had been pushing to lynch Yellow the entire game. There were other reasons too, but I think that's one)
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Amiko you're wrong. But you can kill me if you promise to agree to a written consent that you're just lynching me because my lynch list after the policy lynch on jabber went:
1. town
2. mafia
3. mafia
instead of you who with the benefit of a cop check actually had mafia at no 1.
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Btw, if you find Palmar's argument about bussing at all credible, you should find it applies far moreso to mderg.
Mderg didn't just say he was willing to vote for slOosh, he actually did vote for slOosh (unlike Palmar).
Mderg also wrote a post basically saying slOosh is the better lynch.
This is important because it makes it look much worse for mderg if he switches back to slOosh.
I'll also mention that I think it's more likely I would be roleblocked or killed D1 since I was playing pretty towny, yet I wasn't. I think townreading Palmar may have helped with that 
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EPT
