On March 26 2014 15:30 thrawn2112 wrote: as to why I asked for clarification.. i'd like to talk about reads rather than playing games to figure out wtf everyone is saying. i'm too tired for that atm
Also this post is really really scummy because here thrawn claims he has no time for games and he wants to talk about reads.
What's contradictory to this he never really explains why he has a scumread on me, he does not explain why he is voting for me. He does not ask me why i am townreading Robik. He does (or rather doesn't do) all this and then he whines about "people not being transparent and clear with their thoughts".
Obvious contradiction.
On March 26 2014 15:49 raynpelikoneet wrote: To clarify. I think Holyflare is "capable" of using shitlogic like this because i have seen him doing that as town before. For example Holyflare defended vivax in the last game based on something he didn't know fuck about, he only knew half of the story.
thrawn however does not do this as town. He is mostly laid back, doesn't jump onto conclusions with incomplete informatio. Remember, that has nothing to do with maked bad calls (like in LXIV: restart) based on complete picture. I am talking about filling the puzzle with something he makes up himself. In fact the only time i have seen him do this is as mafia in Extractor trick which made me instantly catch him. And i think we have just seen the same thing here.
Meta + thrawn making unreasonable assumptions. Both of these things are something thrawn does not do as town, because he is not crazy town like you for example can be.
Meta part is explained in my filter from Extractor trick. In that game i claimed cop 1h into the game. thrawn said "you could be mafia for fakeclaiming". I asked him why. His reasoning was "because you also fakeclaimed cop in Witchcraft mini". Just because i did something in some other game does not make me mafia. After that thrawn refused to elaborate more on the reasoning while repeateldy being asked about it. He also made some contradicting things like putting gumshoe into L-1 in IML game then basically said "don't hammer" which made no sense. The point is thrawn does not do stuff that makes no sense or does not not explain his shit as town, he does that as mafia. In this game he does stuff that makes no sense as my quotes above and below, as Holyflares case do explain.
On March 26 2014 18:42 raynpelikoneet wrote: This is the TLDR thrawn gives:
then read it again. he's making stuff up and not making any sense.
the initial reason I voted for him which I haven';t explained until now, is the tone of his "game" post. it looks very fake and not liek something I expect rayn to write regardless of whatever I think about the content of the post. as to the content...
If you read the content of his case and see if it matches up with the "TLDR;" he writes at the start of his post you'll notice:
red) i am not making up stuff anywhere and thrawn does not explain where i do it blue) this is a part of my case. thrawn makes judgement calls on incomplete information. what i say is not scummy just because thrawn does not understand that. ne never cares what my intention of saying things i say is (which i have pointed out). also read my case why this is scummy for thrawn. green) I didn't find this notable in the first place, it's just "this happened", does not say why i am mafia in any reasonable way, but what you pointed out in fact proves this in fact did not even happen as thrawn says it did.
Here is the TLDR; from thrawns case which elaborate more on the point i presented earlier. Also there is stuff in his case where the TLDR; does not match up with what he says. His case in full so you can compare; + Show Spoiler +
On March 26 2014 16:08 thrawn2112 wrote: lol rayn it's so funny watching you pretend like you know why i'm voting for you
Why are you voting rayn? I don't see an explanation in your filter.
then read it again. he's making stuff up and not making any sense.
the initial reason I voted for him which I haven';t explained until now, is the tone of his "game" post. it looks very fake and not liek something I expect rayn to write regardless of whatever I think about the content of the post. as to the content...
"2) My "town wins this belt" post was indeed a town claim. I was happy rolling town and i don't give a fuck who else is town because i just find two mafia and then town wins the belt. I am also amused that Robik has called my alignment correctly out three times based on my usage / usagelessness. I don't know how he does it and i don't think it's alignment indicative but i am really interested in seeing is so some sort of psychic or what because i have a townread on him in this game. I don't believe Robik yet, i mean, i don't believe that's a reliable tell but we'll see about that when / if he does that a couple of times more and if he is right or wrong."
-i doubt rayn doesn't care about winning the belt
- "I don't know how he does it and i don't think it's alignment indicative" what the fuck does this even mean? if robik is scum then of course he is not "some sort of psychic" who is excellent at reading rayn. if robik is scum the robik KNOWS RAYN IS TOWN and doesn't need to try and figure out if rayn is town. like... i can't properly explain the problem I have with this quote because I don't even know what the quote is meant to say. it's just nonsense.
-this line: "i don't believe that's a reliable tell but we'll see about that when / if he does that a couple of times more and if he is right or wrong." WTF DOES THIS MEAN? it's the same as the earlier quote. rayn is just talking nonsense here which is the easiest way to figure out his alignment.
when I read rayn's game my first thought was "ok, rayn is being sarcastic for most if not all of this"
so I ask him to clarify if he was actually reading robik as scum
but he says all those statements are real? lol
Alright, I'm pretty convinced, last thing, can you provide a good town game where thrawn plays sensibly for contrast?
On March 27 2014 03:22 Holyflare wrote: No he fucking said he put a vote down on rayn based on the tone of rayns post straight away regardless of the content which A) is tterrible because he voted without reading the content B) is a flat out lie because he asked something based on the content of rayns post before his vote went down anyway
So he got caught out in a "lie" and rayn called him mafia for other stuff. Thrawn's reaction is that rayn didn't keep hounding him about being mafia so rayn must be mafia. Thrawn thinks rayn is mafia but ninja unvotes him in vote thread without saying anything about it.
Thrawn is mafia
I still dont understand the bolded T_T show me the lie, is it the same lie thrawn was talking about? As for the second paragraph, all I see is indecisive belligerent waffling, just as likely in my eyes to be town bumbling(especially out of thrawn, a player I've known to get super high before playing) as it is to be scum pandering. You are asking me to believe we have caught obviusly terrible scum in a game filled with predominantly great players, and I'm just not seeing it / :
- I make a post. - thrawn asks me about the post. - I answer - thrawn votes for me.
Later on he says "i initially voted for rayn because of the tone of his post". Him asking me a question and voting for me only after the answer does implicate his statement of the tone of the post is false.
This is eh, townies do shit like this all the time (having a judgement in mind but asking a question anyways) but the similarity to Extractor is stunning.
The ninja voting.
The dumb meta/tone accusation (leveled against you as well)
The self contradicting (saying not to hammer when he put me in hammer range)
Also in GSl he is more concerned about the game itself, doesnt make as many dumb leaps, barely any in fact. Voting Thrawn.
Thrawn, when you get back I'd like you to clarify the lie, was it the same one Rayn and Holy were talking about? What point did you see to not being 100 percent genuine? Who do you think is scum now?
Holy= A proven scum player, is capable of bussing and providing cases as red, his temper flares and willingness to over contribute imply hes town though, for the moment.
Marv= If town, hes making a point of manipulating both factions, he really seems to be playing into the legacy of himself this game, which isnt something I typically see Marv do to be honest / : hes just really playing up the marvellous in marvelosity. Like hes not just setting traps, hes talking about them / : which kinda defeats the purpose, or maybe not, who knows (Marv knows : P). Null
Palmar: Still not sure about him, early interactions have left uneasy because a) I still feel his immediate interactions with Rayn were somewhat artificial and b) he responded to my questions well enough, but I'm not sure why he treated me as seriously as he did when he has a precedent of responding to better accusations with anger and mockery. Null leaning scummy.
Prplhz=eh(feels genericaly townie)
Phagga=eh(feels genericaly scummy, will elaborate on if anyone cares, may elaborate anyways cause I do what I want : P)
Thrawn=baaaaah (Holy flare/rayn shepard is best shepard)
this reinforces my town read on rayn. it shows his thought process, like he's thinking about the game as a puzzle, which is how townies approach the game rather than scum who know alignments
(page 25) I have a hard time believing marv is serious about this palmar vote. palmar seems kinda townie to me so far. also, marv is refusing to talk to palmar and is not explaining why he thinks palmar is mafia. he's playing it off like he's above having to do those things, but he isn't and he should know that.
eh. but marv is just so casual about all of this. i dont know what to think about him atm.
Ok, around pages 27-29 my reads on holyflare, palmar, and marv have flip flopped several times, most of it being related to associative tells based on hf and marv pointing out some questionable things that palmar said. So my reads on all 3 of them have weakend (except marv really, i've never had a real read on him) but the reads are still the same.
I think i'm losing my townread on phagga. he asked some reasonable stuff at the beginning but he's barely around, and hardly around for very long. it's not very difficult for scum to only say smart things if they don't actually say very many things.
lol, prplhz is still hilarious and I still think he's town. the only way he's mafia is if he's going for the "let's only do things and post things that everyone will think is too scummy to be scum" plan
gumshoe comes in around pages 32/33 and sorta defends me and i'm not sure how I feel about it. i think this ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/446774-world-heavyweight-championship-mafia-ii?page=33#658 ) post might be the tipping point, the point where's he's defending me too hard. my problem with gum's position is that it doesn't seem like he's wondering if I could be mafia, he's only seeing things from town-thrawn's PoV. He should at least TRY to see if there is a scum thrawn PoV. sooo scum points for gumshoe
then gumshoe caves in and starts scumreading me... was that all it took? he spent two pages defending me and suddenly he flips his read because of a meta statement from rayn that gumshow ust took for granted?
I presented a meta argument in your favour to counter the meta one against you. When my reasoning was over turned I conceded for the moment, but I was by no means prepared to completely wright you off as scum and was still eager to hear you out. Do you think that makes me scummy?
In regards to your question palmar, main thing was that phagga jumped on robik ( a player known to form early reads) for his early generic town read of rayn, yet later when queried by holy he provides his own bland town read of Rayn o-o. Which gives me the impression he was jumping on a weak player as opposed to finding scum.
I just want to say, palmers claim of not reading his role pm may seem null but it is inherently a scummy thing to do, its fine for voices and shit where no one cares but in forum your job is two fold / : find scum and prove your towniness, without reading your role pm you make goal number 2 impossible, you cannot be read and that is terrible for town. Voting plamer.
On March 28 2014 01:30 Holyflare wrote: because it is so wrong, not reading your pm enables you to be towny because you have no hesitation about finding your partner at that point because you don't know who he is so your entire reason for voting palmar is incredibly weird.....
not to mention he actually claimed scum, why haven't you commented on that instead?
Cause I'm not there yet : P and I disagree, bieng readable is a big part of bieng town, if you make your self unreadable you can't be trusted. I'm not going to argue with you about this because it's retarded to think otherwise.
On March 28 2014 01:30 Holyflare wrote: because it is so wrong, not reading your pm enables you to be towny because you have no hesitation about finding your partner at that point because you don't know who he is so your entire reason for voting palmar is incredibly weird.....
not to mention he actually claimed scum, why haven't you commented on that instead?
Cause I'm not there yet : P and I disagree, bieng readable is a big part of bieng town, if you make your self unreadable you can't be trusted. I'm not going to argue with you about this because it's retarded to think otherwise.
what...?
if you are a vt you play the game by finding scum!
if you haven't read your pm you play the game assuming your a vt by finding scum
how does not reading pm make you unreadable...?
It doesn't matter if you've found all the scum on day one, if you look like shit, no one will listen, case in point, Geript. In my eyes, if you haven't read your pm you look like shit, therefore you are not doing everything you can to find scum
And I'm caught up now, thoughts on the claim are thus. If doc was considering counter claiming, they should strike the thought entirely, right now palmers either making shit up ( in which case he could be lying about bieng doc even if he's town, as his scum claim illustrates) or he's scum. So a counter claim is unlikely to avail us, just out t
On March 28 2014 02:09 gumshoe wrote: And I'm caught up now, thoughts on the claim are thus. If doc was considering counter claiming, they should strike the thought entirely, right now palmers either making shit up ( in which case he could be lying about bieng doc even if he's town, as his scum claim illustrates) or he's scum. So a counter claim is unlikely to avail us, just out t
Nowhere here does it mention that he claimed scum. Just that he claimed doc.
He literally claimed scum. In the thread. To everyone. Nothing to do with the doc thing.
On March 28 2014 02:09 gumshoe wrote: And I'm caught up now, thoughts on the claim are thus. If doc was considering counter claiming, they should strike the thought entirely, right now palmers either making shit up ( in which case he could be lying about bieng doc even if he's town, as his scum claim illustrates) or he's scum. So a counter claim is unlikely to avail us, just out t
This is so much funnier now that I know what Palmar looks like, I'm imagining this big tough northerner childishly typing each number while he sips beer and giggles.
There is an off chance marv is mafia but that would mean Palmar was telling the truth about not reading his role PM. In a game where there is only 2 mafia (well in any game, but especially when there is only 2 mafia) i consider that against the game's spirit because if he in fact did that the game becomes a "guess who has red letters after his name" and that is not mafia. So if what he said was true i just consider this game invalid and refuse to believe he didn't read his role PM.
What would palmar not reading his role pm have to do with marvs interaction with him? Marv would still know palmer is his scum buddy, do you think Marv would just go after palmer simply because he wasn't talking in qt? Even though palmer had no issue with him throughout the game?
EPT
