EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XLVII - Page 15
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Lord Velocity
84 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
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Lord Velocity
84 Posts
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Umasi
United States1399 Posts
onto more important things Umasi is actually being ridiculous right now, not sure how any of you are seeing his 'town' intentions. explain that plz. not how I'm being ridiculous, but what you're trying to imply from me being ridiculous. I interpreted it as 'why do people read you as town?' and then you say 'town' in your fantastic apostrophes. are you trying to say my posting has been bad for town, or are you whining that people think I'm town? | ||
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infii
Germany153 Posts
Before I go to bed I just want to say that from my point of view Holyflare's posts are logical and considered. Honestly where is the problem for not posting insights and reads in the first 24h? Almost anything you read in this time period will be based on speculation and subjectiveness. I will look up who was pushing the 'holy y u no post reads?' case tomorrow because that seems like a scummy move to me. | ||
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Lord Velocity
84 Posts
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Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
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Umasi
United States1399 Posts
use the phrase ebwop. this day one isn't that bad. it's feeling okay to me in terms of talking a lot and getting people out there. It's feeling bad because we have no votes up and 24 hours to go, although it's plurality so it's nbd. the problem with not posting reads in the first twenty four hours is it gives less to talk about to town, and you can't post an insight if people haven't been TALKING. If I could insight into holyflares policy, quite easily done he's scum because he's advocating pro-scum policy. But it's not that black and white, obviously. His policy is stupid, and combined with his non-contributions, makes him scummy. His only contribution was starting conversation with me day one. | ||
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Chairman Ray
United States11903 Posts
On September 05 2013 07:35 Lord Velocity wrote: Nvm. This post was irrelevant, let me fix my keyboard brb in a few hours Irrelevant post? Fixing keyboard? How do these two things even relate? Did anyone see the post before it was edited? I actually think we had a slipup. #vote Lord Velocity What was the post before you edited? | ||
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Umasi
United States1399 Posts
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
Ignoring posts about lynch vs no lynch You've basically said early scum reads are useless, and given a few reasons for that, among which is one that I'm not sure i agree with, that we should pressure late in the day because "they wont have time to properly prepare answers in the qt" (correct me if i misunderstood.) I'll get to that in a second. You've also said that On September 04 2013 13:23 Holyflare wrote: Highlight a post that you question and ask for an explanation. It adds a pseudo pressure whereby they don't need to formulate the post, they just need to explain themselves. That is where the scum hunting is found, not by saying X or Y is scum and he has to panic create posts. and On September 04 2013 13:51 Holyflare wrote: The constant criticism of one player always shuts the door on other players who are sitting back and watching things happen. Killerdog brings up some excellent points about other players that we should all be addressing. However, as they are most likely not around for now we can't do that. Most people seem to be around now, and the threads been pretty active for the last few hours, but all you've been doing since making those posts is saying that people are playing badly, and been disagreeing with umasi on what the best way to play town is. If you have a better way, then do it. Ask the questions of people, follow up on the points you think are important. If you think Umasi is playing badly, say so, then ignore him and do what you would do if he wasn't here. Sitting here and telling everyone "Umasi is being ridiculous" benefits noone. Separately, About the idea of pressuring people before the deadline. Personally I don't think thats a very reliable tool at all, given the fact that we're Spread out among several timezones, people will have valid excuses for not being here near the deadline, so if the person who you want to pressure goes to bed 4-5 horus before the deadline, then you're left there faced with the choice of either starting a movement to lynch someone who won't be there to defend themselves before the lynch deadline, or having to give up on that target for the round. If you artificially constrain the period where you're willing to pressure people to a certain period, then either they can just not be in the thread for the period, or alternately, people who are asleep/at work/school during the period of time before the lynch will seem suspicious just because of the timezone they happen to live in. But I'd love to hear your argument in support of it. (or clarification if i misunderstood what you were getting at. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On September 05 2013 07:48 Chairman Ray wrote: Irrelevant post? Fixing keyboard? How do these two things even relate? Did anyone see the post before it was edited? I actually think we had a slipup. vote Lord Velocity What was the post before you edited? Wait, what just happened? To quote the rules On August 20 2013 05:33 ShiaoPi wrote: Editing: Editing is not allowed for any reason. Editing will result in a warning. After that, you will be modkilled. This is the one part of the site where it is okay to be double posting, even triple-posting. While I ask for everybody to post as concisely as possible, post again using the acronym (EBWOP: Edit by way of posting) if you want to clarify/correct something you just posted. I see no reason why a "broken keyboard" has to result in an edit which can get you modkilled, you'd better have a really good reason for that. Mod question, just to clarify, the rules say no voting in this thread, but everyones been saying that they vote here, and crossposting the vote to the other thread. Do you have to vote in both, or do only votes in that thread count (and what happens if you say vote in this thread but not in that one) Also is there any rule regarding the revealing of what was edited? (by site mod or whatever,) Or is the warning the only thing. (and does that mean each mafia almost has a single "free" edit before actual consequences occur?. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
On September 05 2013 07:56 killerdog wrote: + Show Spoiler + Holyflare, you're posting a lot about what we shouldn't do, and very little about what we should. Ignoring posts about lynch vs no lynch You've basically said early scum reads are useless, and given a few reasons for that, among which is one that I'm not sure i agree with, that we should pressure late in the day because "they wont have time to properly prepare answers in the qt" (correct me if i misunderstood.) I'll get to that in a second. You've also said that On September 04 2013 13:23 Holyflare wrote: Highlight a post that you question and ask for an explanation. It adds a pseudo pressure whereby they don't need to formulate the post, they just need to explain themselves. That is where the scum hunting is found, not by saying X or Y is scum and he has to panic create posts. and On September 04 2013 13:51 Holyflare wrote: The constant criticism of one player always shuts the door on other players who are sitting back and watching things happen. Killerdog brings up some excellent points about other players that we should all be addressing. However, as they are most likely not around for now we can't do that. Most people seem to be around now, and the threads been pretty active for the last few hours, but all you've been doing since making those posts is saying that people are playing badly, and been disagreeing with umasi on what the best way to play town is. If you have a better way, then do it. Ask the questions of people, follow up on the points you think are important. If you think Umasi is playing badly, say so, then ignore him and do what you would do if he wasn't here. Sitting here and telling everyone "Umasi is being ridiculous" benefits noone. Separately, About the idea of pressuring people before the deadline. Personally I don't think thats a very reliable tool at all, given the fact that we're Spread out among several timezones, people will have valid excuses for not being here near the deadline, so if the person who you want to pressure goes to bed 4-5 horus before the deadline, then you're left there faced with the choice of either starting a movement to lynch someone who won't be there to defend themselves before the lynch deadline, or having to give up on that target for the round. If you artificially constrain the period where you're willing to pressure people to a certain period, then either they can just not be in the thread for the period, or alternately, people who are asleep/at work/school during the period of time before the lynch will seem suspicious just because of the timezone they happen to live in. But I'd love to hear your argument in support of it. (or clarification if i misunderstood what you were getting at. Also just to clarify, on re-reading it my post sounds a bit more aggressive/accusatory then I meant it to be. I'm just pointing out that, (slightly ironically given your earlier posts :p) it feels like you've gotten caught up in some kind of philosophical disagreement with Umasi, and it feels like you're posting responses/disagreements at him rather then original content. | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
I will see what else needs to be done. Generally said editing usually ends in a modkill. Since you are all still new, I want to be more lenient, thats why only a warning was stated in the rules. As I will be heading to bed soon you probably will have to wait for tmr about the content of the edited post. Velocity has not yet responded and I assume he wont be back before I am asleep. Regarding votes. You can post them in both threads (I encourage that as it helps the other players keep track of the big picture). However only votes in the voting thread will be valid! | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
I'm leaving this here until we get a GOOD explanation of why he edited. The only town reason I can see for him having edited is if he posted something private/personal/really embarrassing by accident, panicked, and deleted it. But that doesn't at all match with the reasons he gave. Posting something irrelevant is harmless, what on earth does that have to do with a broken keyboard? and why the hell does he immediately have to disappear for "a few hours" without even being able to give some small reason as to why he broke one of the few strict rules of this game. Right now I'm seeing a Mafia who posted something he shouldn't have, panicked, and has fled the thread until he can contact his coach/talk to mafia buddies in qt to work out how to do damage control, and until someone comes up with a convincing alternative my vote is staying. | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
###vote: Lord Velocity misspelled his name lol | ||
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Mocsta
Australia9387 Posts
(b) (/b) Replace () with [] | ||
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killerdog
Denmark6522 Posts
(I'm starting to see why everyone in this forum has such high post counts :p) | ||
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Umasi
United States1399 Posts
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Holyflare
United Kingdom30774 Posts
Either way the people that I think are the most lynch worth today fall into 2 categories. People who I think will be less useful later on in the game because they aren't articulate enough and thus we should lynch them or by pure fact that I did not like what they are posting. infii I've played with infii and he was a bit weak to begin with when I did play with him, however, I found that I could read when he was being town by the targets he was focusing on with his posts and he did eventually get a lot better at analysis so I would have assumed better from him so far. + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 23:36 infii wrote: I would also love to see more participation from the people with the lower post counts (of course including me), so I did dive a bit into the filters. heavenz: Considering the fact that the discussion about yes/no-lynch on D1 was already going on for about 1 hour at the time you posted this, why did you go ahead and claim it to be 'a bit of a discussion starter' with your second post? myrzeth: Yup... we need to hear more from you merzeth. What is your opinion on lynching the most inactive player on Day1? Pharcyd: His only post, though he stated before that he would have plenty of time to keep up with the thread. So why not also contribute to the discussion? Chairman Ray: Took part in the early discussion about Day1 lynch with 2 posts saying the exact same thing. Also I disagree a bit with you here, because you don't have to actually execute the lynch to get people talking. A lynch threat is more than enough. Don’t you think lynching a less active townmember early on is a loss? Because they could still improve on Day 2 for example. Ok basically everyone listed above should step up and contribute to the discussion. You can start by answering my questions. On another note: Don’t you think the effect of a lynch threat will be reduced when you always have someone voted? If you want other players to know who you are targetting just write it in this thread for everyone to see. Infii's is one of the lowest posting people in the game at the moment with 3 total posts. This particular post that I have spoilered above is his only substantial thing that he has added in which it says paticularly nothing, stuff we already pretty much knew. Now realise this was after me and Umasi had our discussion and so there was a lot of information and reads flying about and things to mention, however, he only decides to mention split parts of peoples posts to ask them questions that really have little to follow up on. Compare this to his post in a previous game that was similarly early; + Show Spoiler + On August 01 2013 20:42 infii wrote: Ok, time to clarify things! I'll do this in chronologic order. That is not true. I said he should make a statement to get rid of all the suspicion he will get with that post. This is not an empty phrase! Btw sc_a.M still did't take a stance to his first post, which raised a lot of suspicion from me but surprisingly went under everyone elses radar. He even defended reps with his second post. So if reps is scum, sc_a.M is also scum. The only other option I see here is that sc_a.M has information/proof that reps is town. Then there were several posts which stated that I would be in favor of a no-lynch: I never said I'm for a no-lynch. I'm just against random or premature votes on people. Generally I want to look at a case from every possible angle before I judge, that may very well look neutral/scummy from the outside... until my first vote I guess. So please have a little bit more patience. 1. I think the general misunderstanding lies in the word neutral. - Neutral as in not participating on the discussion is bad. - Neutral as in shedding light on not-discussed topics on a strongly favored lynch candidate is good. Neutral for town is not a bad thing imo, of course they have to agree on a lynch at some point. But I see neutrality at the start of day1 as a positive thing because there is so few information and you want to stretch your feelers in every possible direction to gather as much information as possible. Thus, being biased on a certain person/clue/statement hinders the information flow. 2. Well I have a full-time job and whenever I get a piece of free time I spend most of it catching up on all the new posts. e.g. today I'll head to a rehearsal straight after work and will get home maybe at 9-10 pm CET. I'm at work right now and shouldn't even take so much time to write this post... but whatever it's pretty fun!  In all honesty: that sounds pretty reasonable, although it was an agressive move. I never said that I am going to lurk and wait. I will post as much as I possibly can and when I see it necessary. Reading his latest posts I may have misjudged him. No real opinion on him atm. Ok now on to the reps)squishy case: If you read through his posts he is either newbie town in a helpless situation with almost no way out or he is scum trying desperately to stay alive. In any cases his argumentation is repetitive and overall not very convincing, therefore I agree that even if he is town he would be of little use and should be lynched. OTOH he would still be more useful than StiMaDDict or sc_a.M. Stimaddict was active early on and got super silent now, which could be because he doesn't want to get more attention or just is busy in real life atm. sc_a.M literally made 2 posts until the second half of day1, which is poor at best. Those posts were contraproductive for town. That is why I will vote for him if he doesn't contribute/defend himself in the next hours. But if it is necessary I will switch votes to reps before day1 ends. Umasi: He is pressing hard on reps atm. The way he confronts reps seems scummy to me and if reps turns out to be town he will definately be a big candidate for scum next day. Alakaslam: He is also on reps. But unlike Umasi he went on a more supportive approach, trying to help reps to defend himself. While reps is clearly in a dead end, there is no need to increase the pressure any more. That is a strong town sign because we should support each other as town. As we can see the difference is pretty overwhelming, especially when the things he has mentioned have been brought up by people in the posts before him: He also posts as a reply to lonemeow here: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 00:54 infii wrote: Still too early for conclusions. The only thing I find noteworthy until now is Umasi's kinda-agressiveness and twisting words in others mouths, seems a bit scummy. Not only are these two posts suspicious but his initial post was: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 08:01 infii wrote: Welcome everyone, good to be back again! Similiar to the last game I won't be able to devote as much time to this game as I would like to for rl reasons. I see we have some familiar faces from 2 games ago. I will try to discard my knowledge of your playstyles as much as I can to prevent a mis-judgement based on earlier behaviour. This game I'll try a different approach, and although I know no one is will straight out believe a simple claim, I still think that the claim pins itself either consciously or sub-consciously in your memory. So here goes: I'm town. I'm excited to see how this day will fold out, so happy discussing everyone! I'm heading to bed right away and will see you tomorrow. He went out of his way to mention that he is town for no reason whatsoever. Obviously, you can take that to mean anything you want but in my point of view there is scummy intentions behind implanting things like that in the start of the game. It's obviously emphasised by his follow up posts that draw me to suspicions on his first post. heavenz + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 08:26 heavenz wrote: Good evening fellow top agents. Let us rest old and dry cases and let this be our only concerne as it already runs blood red. Lynching is the righteous answere on the evildoings of the terrorists, so we shall lynch. This was his first post and some people pointed it out as being scummy. I assume he is new (only 17 posts on the site, no previous mafia games here etc.) and so that is the reason for his post (This happened in a game 2 games ago and the guy was town.) So there is no information to read from this whatsoever. However after his flavour post was: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 15:26 heavenz wrote: Umasi, is very aggressive, which is a townlike nature, but beeing aggressive on the first day with everyone just getting into isn't a big feat, so that reduces my town read of him at the moment, at least he called me out for my opening post, which was indeed worthless, and thought to be just a bit of a discussion starter before I went to bed (I didn't think the game would actually start yesterday). However Pharcyd3 also jumped on me with 1 post, 1 line, calling me out and then leaving the thread. At least equally scummy to my opening post, even more so that he just followed Umasi. There need to come more indeed. Lord Velocity, I don't have to quote here much as every post says: he doesn't like to get attention and tries to behave neutral / hide Holyflare is just doing his thing, posting much, but the content is mostly contentless. As he said himself, he is holding back his informations. Blurry good townread opening posts, focussing on the discussion. Chairman Ray, suspicious, or just weird? What is this about... Killerdog, started out with a strong town post, but then just keept summing Umasi's and Holyf.'s conversation up. I want to have more than you just repeating and summing up the last 5 posts. most Scum: Lord Velocity, Pharcyd3, Chairman Ray, Holyflare (until he stops holding back, which I assume will be on day 1, then we'll see.) most Town: Blurry, Killerdog, Umasi This is non contributary. The only real merit was that he wrote a few lines on Umasi, however when you look closely it holds nothing of value seeing as a few posts before it was killerdogs same reasoning: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 13:30 killerdog wrote: This thread is growing much faster then i expected already lol, every time i think i've caught up, i refresh and theres another 10 posts waiting for me. Not much seems to have happened so far, other then the prolonged discussion about whether to lynch or not, but heres what I've got so far. First note, Umasi and holyflare seem to me to be the two players steering the conversation, they're the people who bring up new topics, or actively disagree with/try to change the public consensus on something. Also noted that they both mentioned having played with each other, infi and lonemeow, so they're definitely not first time players, and that's probably why they're being so much less timid then everyone else. Also infi didn't mention either of them or lonemeow in his one post, but this might just be because he seemed like he was just saying hi before he went to bed (from his one post, which didn't reference the current conversation at all). Several people have only made one or two posts, with very little content. Velocity, who several people seem to have jumped on already, as blurry said, Heavenz made one post, which didn't say anything at all. I'm going to overlook that as him just being on the way to bed/about to go somewhere, however it's a bad first impression and he'll have to prove his worth actively when he gets back. pharcyd3, who noone seems to have mentioned (at least before i started writing this essay :p) has only made a single post, and it was one sentence openly attacking heavenz. While having a useless first post can be excused as just dipping your toes in the water or something, he openly threw doubt on someone, said absolutely nothing else, then vanished. Just based off this he'd probably be my scum read. It feels like two philosophies are clashing between Umasi and Holyflare, both have been incredibly vocal and assertive in terms of controlling the discussion, and haven't been at all afraid to take a stand. A lot of the (non lynch/sleep) discourse seems to have been basically those responding to each other and other people just agreeing with one or the other. Personally I think given how there are many people who have said literally nothing of value so far, there hasn't been any reason for either Umasi or Holyflare to be this vocal/sure of themselves should they be scum, and because of how easy it could have been for them to calmly take the backseat and let people waste time, I wouldn't (currently) feel comfortable voting for either. If nothing else, I think a a vocal mafia is much better to keep until day 2 (and lynch him then) then a quiet townie who will stay quiet, because it gives a shitload of information. Although that doesn't mean I don't want Holyflare to clarify his position. He got a bit confrontational after (i think blurry) mentioned everyone just giving scum/town reads. My current read is Holyflare and Umasi are both town, but both seem to have (subconsciously or not) tried to take on the "leadership" role of the townies, and seem to be clashing. (note i've been writing this for a while now and more stuff might have been said since i started. Umasi has been the most consistent though, starting off by discouraging people making "i am new" posts to avoid mislynches, and has been consistent in starting conversations which would force mafia to say things which might later come back to haunt them. It's 6 am so I'm probably gonna go to sleep now, looking forward to seeing how the thread develops overnight, and hopefully my grammar/spelling will be better tomorrow and i wont ramble as much :p Pretty much blending in and then he says: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 20:14 heavenz wrote: yes I am here, it bothers me that there are so many players inactive. On top of the inactive there are those I listed as suspicious (besides holyf.) who still need to answere. Infis from what I' ve read last game, and from what he said pre game hasn't have much time but will must likly come out with a huge post at one point. Not sure how I can judge that then. myrzeth hasn't said a single thing besides /in. I would like to hear more from you, LoneMeow, what do you think about the remaining players, aside of Umasi / Holyf. He puts me on his scum list but doesn't want to hear anything more from me, not even a question about what I've said or any queries that he didn't like. More blending in etc. His + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 21:31 heavenz wrote: He's active, his opinions are townlike, he studied Lord Velocity who behaved a little suspicious. He started a discussion to bring everyone to speak and voice their opinions. That's more town than the most right now. Yes it could be fake, but in my book his action are town. On September 04 2013 23:32 heavenz wrote: I know what you mean, it's my first game as well. You act overly defensive as soon as someone talks about you, that's suspecious because if you're town you have nothing to hide. Also it's not a shitty town when someone asks questions, it's the job. That you don't think about yourself as suspecious is nice, but it doesn't mean that the others think the same. You are also in no danger to be lynched as not a single person voted for you. So man up a bit! I agree with you too, we should hear more opinions. I don't really have questions to ask them rather than point out these obvious weak posts. I will be voting one of these two most probably in the next day. Lord Velocity and Chairman Ray were close on these lists, however velocity has been put under some pressure and has been working towards what I see as a more pro town active role. In fact ray should be another one on this list even but I'll post that a bit later, these are the candidates I'd rather focus on for now. I want a lot more contributions from them if they want to be cleared from here. | ||
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