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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
On July 14 2013 22:41 Koshi wrote: jrkirby needs to come back and start proving he is town. His last 5 posts were horribly rude, but I still wonder if scum would do that. It's so bold, or maybe he is just a rude person.. Why do you think that Kirby needs to price that he's town, but not Super? | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
On July 15 2013 00:06 hzflank wrote: Also Chrom, What is this?: No it is not! Finding a reason to vote for someone is town. Finding a person to vote for with reasons is very much not town. What concerns me right now is that you know that. I cannot believe that you believe that. ... are you seriously arguing semantics? Both town and scum want to vote someone with reasoning. That's what I do. That's what you do. That's what generic scum player #2 does. The difference is that town is honestly trying to find scum. I've already said this. I'm really tempted to do a large defense of Super where I go through your cases point by point, but I'll leave it up to you if you'd rather hear from Super first. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On July 15 2013 00:25 Chromatically wrote: I'm really tempted to do a large defense of Super where I go through your cases point by point, but I'll leave it up to you if you'd rather hear from Super first. Your defense would be valuable so you should definitely post it at some point. The best thing is probably to write it and save it until Super posts, or if he doesn't then post yours a few hours before deadline. | ||
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Koshi
Belgium38797 Posts
On July 15 2013 00:21 Chromatically wrote: Why do you think that Kirby needs to price that he's town, but not Super? hzflank his case spreads out over a long period of Super posts and is a case on the playstyle of Super. Not as much nitpicking of sentences in the posts. The kirby case is more looking at the content of his posting. Kinda hard to explain, but you understand what I mean? | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On July 14 2013 04:29 Superfluous wrote: Going back through the posts, I'm a little alarmed at Hurricane Sponge's change of tone.In this post he disagrees with my opinion and says it casts suspicion on me, but doesnt state that I'm a huge scumread or anything. Here I interpreted his post as acknowledging that while we disagree, I was still trying to state my opinion and reasons for having that view. He then says some weird things here though. For instance, he says that he agrees with others' view of me who had semi-defended me, and in the same list puts me as the only scum read. I realize his view may have changed, but it strikes me especially considering in the second post I listed he acknowledged the possibility of a bandwagon on me just because of differing opinions. We also have a mutual disagreement on reads as well. I don't see how hzflank and xzavier have contributed substantially more than me. While knowing everyone's scum reads is good, I don't like it when people show up, say their scum reads, then expect other people to act on them. As for Stim I think he's more likely bad town then mafia. Then again everyone else is saying the same thing, so could be mafia excuse for not lynching him. After reading this a few times I see multiple possibilities for Super's motives. Super could actually be scum hunting here, but if so I disagree with his conclusions (That would not make Super scummy, disagreeing with conclusions is fine). Super misinterprets why Sponge says his (Super's) first post is scummy, which makes it seem to Super that Sponge's next post is inconsistent. I do not fully understand Super's points regarding Sponge's third post. Maybe Super could clarify that bit for me? Having a disagreement on reads (with Sponge) is irrelevant at that point as long as you can see the reasons for the reads. The earliest point that this can possibly matter is shortly before the day 1 deadline. Super then makes a really weird attack towards me, but I suppose that might be because he is seeing association between Sponge and I? (in a later post he claims that it is not due to association). I disagree that I should not share my reads as I like to share information when possible and encourage others to do the same. I disagree that I ever expected other people to push my reads, especially since I was already pushing my read on Super before he even made that post. He is gently pushing Sponge and then including me in his post where possible. My conclusion on this is that if my case on Super was solely based on this post then I would have no case. However, this post does not look town enough to make me drop the rest of my case, as this post could definitely of been made by a scum who was starting to feel pressure, and there is nothing about this post that gives me a very strong town read. | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
On July 15 2013 00:44 Koshi wrote: hzflank his case spreads out over a long period of Super posts and is a case on the playstyle of Super. Not as much nitpicking of sentences in the posts. The kirby case is more looking at the content of his posting. Kinda hard to explain, but you understand what I mean? No, you just messed up. Both cases are about playstyle. Both cases are spread out over a period. Neither case is nitpicking sentences. Both cases are looking at the content of the posting. You're just making stuff up. Your post implied that you were going to switch onto Kirby if he didn't post. This doesn't make any sense from a town perspective. You found the case on Super more convincing, but if neither of them posted, you would have switched onto Kirby? No logical town reason for that. | ||
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
On July 14 2013 05:56 Chromatically wrote: + Show Spoiler + Kirby Stim's case on Kirby takes a lot of stuff that's not scummy and says it is, but it also has good points (some of which are probably repeated here). Here's what I don't like: a) fluff about Sponge's first post b) wishy-washy reads c) lurker list d) Stim interactions a) fluff about Sponge's first post A large amount of Kirby's early posting is talking about Sponge's pregame post and trying to get him to post it. He only starts doing this light pressure AFTER I start it. On July 13 2013 08:33 Chromatically wrote: Why did you include this? Are you saying you wouldn't have posted this if you were scum? Scum are always looking for some way to post so that they seem town without actually doing anything. This pregame thing is something VERY easy for scum to comment on and lightly push. He notices that I'm a little suspicious and seizes on it so that he can post something at all. Notice how very lightly he's pressuring: On July 13 2013 08:48 jrkirby wrote: So then show us the post that you would have posted if you rolled scum, eh? On July 13 2013 09:03 jrkirby wrote: You ought to post it anyway. Having something that you'd post on the condition that you're scum is foolish in any respect, even if no one knows what it is. Ideally, a scum player would want to post the same way as scum as they do town in almost all situations. The first one is a conversational question, the second one is a suggestion. When I pressure someone I think is suspicious, I don't "suggest" things to them and tell them "what they ought to do". He doesn't actually care about getting the post, he just wants to look like he does. b) wishy-washy reads On July 13 2013 09:22 jrkirby wrote: Pretty much what you said was: meta is bad, this is the meta that I might accidentally do. That's fine, neither particularly good nor bad imo. But you claimed that you would only post it on the condition that you were town. You admit to having a post that you would post on the condition that you're scum (which I think is foolish), but you won't show it to us, and that's just a tiny bit suspicious. On July 13 2013 09:46 jrkirby wrote: Me - "It's been long enough that he could've written another one by now." If he had posted one immediately after I had asked it means something different than if he posts one an hour or two after I asked. Superfluous's post & lurk is bad, but give him a bit, he might show back up. On July 13 2013 10:32 jrkirby wrote: Honestly? I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. I'm slightly more suspicious of Sponge, Umasi, and Rainbows than the rest. Sponge I've stated my reasons for. I don't really trust my read on Rainbows because [meta here] I thought he was scum last time I played with him and he wasn't. Umasi just reads a bit ornery, so that could be the reason for my weak read. My vote on hzflank was kinda a combo of joke/pressure as you guys pointed out. It got a bit of discussion, but didn't get much of a rise out of hzflank, who I currently have null read on. I guess I should unvote him now, since the pressure obviously didn't do too much. ##unvote: hzflank This is just generic wishy-washiness and unwillingness to commit to reads. Townies have at least some scum reads that they provide to the thread and push, at least a little. Kirby hasn't pushed a scumread all game. Kirby hasn't even had a scumread that he couldn't easily back out of. As scum, Kirby can easily justify a vote on anyone now because he doesn't have any reads out there. c) lurker list On July 13 2013 10:13 jrkirby wrote: Koshi Xzavier Nightcat99 Gotard cloud-9 These players haven't posted anything/enough in my opinion. It's only been a couple hours, so you might be asleep/ at work. But just a PSA, these are currently "lurkers". This should be pretty obvious, but lurker lists are scummy in general. Everyone knows who hasn't posted. There's no reason to post something like this as town, it's totally useless. Scum sometimes do stuff like this because they really really want to look useful. Scum think that lists like this will look pro town and give them something to post about so that they seem active. d) Stim interactions On July 13 2013 09:32 jrkirby wrote: Keep your cool stim, rainbows just misinterpreted your post, that's all. On July 13 2013 13:21 jrkirby wrote: Cool it dude. For all you know, the people voting for you could be scum trying to get you riled up. Just calm down, post reads, question things, and have a good game. You won't play your best when you're tilting. You're in no way doomed right now. Kirby consoles Stim twice during the game. Read both of these (especially the second one), and ask yourself why does it seem like Kirby KNOWS that Stim is town? Look at that second quote. "You won't play your best when you're tilting." There's not a HINT of doubt in that post that Stim is town. That's not something that you post to someone that you're even slightly suspicious of. "Well this makes sense if he has a town read on Stim, right?" On July 13 2013 13:38 jrkirby wrote: I don't think he's town. I think he's stupid, and have a nullread. Apart from the simple fact that he's trying to leave his options open to switch on the wagon later, this is COMPLETELY at odds with his subconscious attitude toward Stim in the previous conversation. ##Unvote ##Vote: jrkirby a)"fluff about Sponge's first post" That wasn't "fluff." Yes, I wasn't downright downright accusing Hurricane of being scum. But I explained all the reasons for what I was doing, and why. Hurricane didn't blow up, or take the bait too hard, so I'm still not convinced he's scum. But he did have something he claims he wrote on the condition he rolled scum that he wasn't willing to post. And you should all be wondering if maybe there's a another reason why he wouldn't post it. My goal wasn't to get the post, necessarily. It was to see his reaction, and judge whether he was telling the truth. Besides, to continue pushing him much further would be pointless, because as I said, a scum hurricane could have just written another one by then. I showed something of value: hurricane wasn't willing to post something that he had written for this mafia game. Unfortunately, that by itself is not damning, so there wasn't much I could do but let it drop. If I had continued the pressure, you'd be on my case for how I was "hard core tunneling hurricane sponge." b) wishy-washy reads I said this before, and I'll say it again: I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. Fortunately, I have seen a bit of voting now, so right after this post, I'm gonna dive some filters, read some scum, and give a vote. Anyway, who can really give confident scum reads halfway through day one? Anyone one who pretends that they can is either overconfident and bullshitting themselves, or actually scum. c) lurker list Yeah, I posted a list of people who hadn't posted. Wait, that's scummy? I don't get that. Why don't we say everyone who scumhunts is scummy, because "Scum sometimes do stuff like this because they really really want to look useful." I'm not gonna say that you should give me kudos for posting a list of lurkers. You're right, it takes 30 seconds and anyone could do it. But that doesn't make me scum. d) Stim interactions I tend to think that people who get voted a lot day one tend to be town, simply because scum can defend themselves easily day one with no previous associations. But no, I don't "KNOW" stim is town. And when I'm talking to someone to try to help them calm down, I'm going to phrase it from a "we're both town" perspective. Doing it any other way is going to backfire. Seems like he's calmed down now, took him long enough. Stim: if you get riled up like that again, well, just don't. Ok, In 15 minutes I'll have a post with scumreads. I already have someone in mind. I can answer more questions and should be here till day end. I might not have answered all the accusations on me, and if you have more to point at me, ask it again, I probably read it but didn't stop to specifically address it (but I'm sure I have an answer for you). I know Hurricane Sponge had a post on me, I'll get to that after some scumreads. | ||
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StiMaDDict
Korea (South)313 Posts
Honestly? I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. I'm slightly more suspicious of Sponge, Umasi, and Rainbows than the rest. Sponge I've stated my reasons for. I don't really trust my read on Rainbows because [meta here] I thought he was scum last time I played with him and he wasn't. Umasi just reads a bit ornery, so that could be the reason for my weak read. | ||
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
Jrkirby looks like a better lynch than Superfluous right now. What? You think that you can just sheep me because of the two biggest bandwagons, you like this one better? You think you don't need to do anything, and it's just fine to jump on whatever BW you see fit? Because that is NOT ok. You better pick up your play, because that is scum. He reiterates a couple of things other people have said, and doesn't even get all of it, and misinterprets even basic things: His post claiming that hzflank is mafia was awkward and then he defended himself saying that it was only a joke/pressure combo. That was like the third post of the day, and I was quoting things that happened before the game even started. If you thought there was a chance that it was completely serious, then you weren't paying much attention. On top of that, he's barely posted, hasn't posted an original scumread, and has pressured no one. Guys, I think we found scum. Vote: Gotard | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
Anyway, who can really give confident scum reads halfway through day one? Anyone one who pretends that they can is either overconfident and bullshitting themselves, or actually scum. The point is that Kirby hasn't given any real scumreads and hasn't actually been trying to find them. | ||
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StiMaDDict
Korea (South)313 Posts
On July 15 2013 01:59 StiMaDDict wrote: @jkirby: I know you said you are working on your reads right now, just reminding you to elaborate and explain this. jkirby, this please... | ||
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
On July 15 2013 01:59 StiMaDDict wrote: @jkirby: I know you said you are working on your reads right now, just reminding you to elaborate and explain this. Elaboration: What is the real scumtell at the end of the day? Who they voted for, when and why. Any scum can say anything they like, for example, they could choose to post a list of lurkers or choose not to post a list of lurkers. While some people might think that what they say is the scumtell, for example, Chromatically thinks anyone who posts a list of lurkers is automatically scum, in the end, scum can choose either way, and act as townish as they possibly can. Where the scum CAN'T hide, is their vote. Scum always vote with another reason behind it. They might buss each other, they might sheep, might spread out, might vote together. But at the end of the day, they vote with a different reason than town. And looking at how they vote is how you can find that. If no one has voted, I really don't think that you can find scum better than chance. | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
Chromatically thinks anyone who posts a list of lurkers is automatically scum LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Not quite sure why you'd feel the need to blatantly and obviously misrepresent my case on you if you're town. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:04 Chromatically wrote: If someone finds any part of that defense convincing, I can respond to it, but it doesn't change anything at all. The point is that Kirby hasn't given any real scumreads and hasn't actually been trying to find them. The reason for the posts to Sponge was fair enough. Even so, he still did not post enough real content until he was heavily pressured, but if he was afk then that is understandable. So, I believe his defence regarding the fluff point, so long as he makes more good posts before the end of the day. I do not buy his defence of his reads or of his Stim interactions, but I will post my comments on that in a separate post directed at Kirby. | ||
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:14 Chromatically wrote: LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL Not quite sure why you'd feel the need to blatantly and obviously misrepresent my case on you if you're town. That wasn't my defense, that was just a pit of satirical exaggeration. | ||
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
But right now super & jkirby both blink bright red on my scumdar. Soon after it's clear we both have a BW on us. Pretty much sheeping to me. And it's only a couple hours for the deadline, so I wouldn't be surprised if he BW's someone without much discussion or reason. Also most of his posts have been about his schedule, instead of about the game. If THAT isn't fluff, what is? | ||
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StiMaDDict
Korea (South)313 Posts
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Ange777
Germany1164 Posts
hzlank (0): Superfluous (3): Umasi, hzlank, Koshi StiMaDDict (0): jrkirby (4): StiMaDDict, Chromatically, Hurricane Sponge, Gotard Gotard (2): Rainbows, jrkirby Xzavier (1): Superfluous Voting is mandatory. Only votes in the voting thread will be counted! The voting thread can be found here. Not voting: Nightcat99, cloud-9, Xzavier Deadline is in ~ 4,5 hours. With 13 alive it takes 7 votes to lynch! | ||
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Chromatically
United States1700 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:18 hzflank wrote: The reason for the posts to Sponge was fair enough. Even so, he still did not post enough real content until he was heavily pressured, but if he was afk then that is understandable. So, I believe his defence regarding the fluff point, so long as he makes more good posts before the end of the day. I do not buy his defence of his reads or of his Stim interactions, but I will post my comments on that in a separate post directed at Kirby. The problem with the Sponge stuff is that he didn't really care about getting the results. I pointed this out in my case, his "pressure" is weak as anything. He was suspicious of Sponge, but he's politely asking him for his post. Most importantly, he doesn't get any conclusions from it. If he was town, he would be doing it for a reason and would explain that reason. However, Kirby gets absolutely nothing from it, making the whole conversation completely useless. He gives this as the purpose for the posts: It was to see his reaction, and judge whether he was telling the truth. Well what has he gotten? Nothing! His read on Sponge was totally unaffected. He was pressuring Sponge for no reason, which is scum. | ||
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jrkirby
United States1510 Posts
On July 15 2013 02:28 Chromatically wrote: He gives this as the purpose for the posts: Well what has he gotten? Nothing! His read on Sponge was totally unaffected. He was pressuring Sponge for no reason, which is scum. What? Pressuring someone with no reason at the beginning of day 1 is scum? Why? It only gets town more information. If done properly (maybe better than I can do it) on a poor player (maybe a player worse than Sponge) who is actually just so happens to be scum, then you'll be able to get a very good scumread. Just because I wasn't successful with flying colors doesn't mean that a) we didn't get any information, or b) it was scummy. | ||
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