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On July 15 2013 02:36 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:28 Chromatically wrote:He gives this as the purpose for the posts: It was to see his reaction, and judge whether he was telling the truth. Well what has he gotten? Nothing! His read on Sponge was totally unaffected. He was pressuring Sponge for no reason, which is scum. What? Pressuring someone with no reason at the beginning of day 1 is scum? Why? It only gets town more information. If done properly (maybe better than I can do it) on a poor player (maybe a player worse than Sponge) who is actually just so happens to be scum, then you'll be able to get a very good scumread. Just because I wasn't successful with flying colors doesn't mean that a) we didn't get any information, or b) it was scummy.
Well, what information did you get from it?
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On July 15 2013 02:26 StiMaDDict wrote:
@jkirby: please, stop dodging the subject. Why did you think those 3 were most suspicious at the time your posting and what is your current read on them.
Oh, that was the question. Woops.
Rainbows & Umasi: I didn't like the way they were hunting stim and arguing over semantics. It's a really weak scumtell, and I had a really weak scumread. What else can you do that early in the game? I only really mentioned it because I was specifically asked, if I recall.
I'm still suspicious of sponge for the way he reacted to that "unposted" writing drama. I think he's the next filter I'll dive.
Also, I looked through rainbow's filter, and after that early stim back and forth, miscommunicating stuff, he seems to have a clearer townish filter.
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@Chromatically: I want your thought on Koshi. Believe it or not, he is second on my list.
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On July 15 2013 02:43 StiMaDDict wrote:
@Chromatically: I want your thought on Koshi. Believe it or not, he is second on my list.
He's a close second on mine, too. I don't want to do a full case, but he was really nervous in the beginning, played the noob card, and then only posted later after being pressured. He has 0 reasoning for voting Super, he literally said that "That is a really impressing post." (referring to hz's case).
This part is unexplainable from a town POV:
On July 15 2013 01:47 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 00:44 Koshi wrote:On July 15 2013 00:21 Chromatically wrote:On July 14 2013 22:41 Koshi wrote:
jrkirby needs to come back and start proving he is town. His last 5 posts were horribly rude, but I still wonder if scum would do that. It's so bold, or maybe he is just a rude person.. Why do you think that Kirby needs to price that he's town, but not Super? hzflank his case spreads out over a long period of Super posts and is a case on the playstyle of Super. Not as much nitpicking of sentences in the posts. The kirby case is more looking at the content of his posting. Kinda hard to explain, but you understand what I mean? No, you just messed up. Both cases are about playstyle. Both cases are spread out over a period. Neither case is nitpicking sentences. Both cases are looking at the content of the posting. You're just making stuff up. Your post implied that you were going to switch onto Kirby if he didn't post. This doesn't make any sense from a town perspective. You found the case on Super more convincing, but if neither of them posted, you would have switched onto Kirby? No logical town reason for that.
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On July 15 2013 02:38 Chromatically wrote:
Well, what information did you get from it?
We got that he claims to have a post that he would've posted on the condition that he's scum, but he won't post it. He clearly admitted it. And there's an obvious scum reasoning behind that: He didn't actually have something to post, because he IS scum. That isn't to say there isn't neutral motivations, as he already posted one. We also got to see how he defends himself. Apparently he does it in a calm rational manner, and provides clear (if somewhat dubious) reasoning for his actions.
If you don't have anything new to ask me, I'm going to read his filter now.
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On July 15 2013 02:48 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:38 Chromatically wrote:
Well, what information did you get from it? We got that he claims to have a post that he would've posted on the condition that he's scum, but he won't post it. He clearly admitted it. And there's an obvious scum reasoning behind that: He didn't actually have something to post, because he IS scum. That isn't to say there isn't neutral motivations, as he already posted one. We also got to see how he defends himself. Apparently he does it in a calm rational manner, and provides clear (if somewhat dubious) reasoning for his actions. If you don't have anything new to ask me, I'm going to read his filter now.
So it sounds like you got a scummy feel from the situation. However, you never show any signs of this.
Why wouldn't you pressure vote him? Why wouldn't you keep pressuring him? Why wouldn't you ask others for reads on him?
These are all things that townies would do to develop and push their reads, but you never show any interest in Sponge after this. You show no signs at all that you actually care about Sponge's alignment.
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To address Kirby's defence of his reads:
On July 15 2013 01:47 jrkirby wrote:
I said this before, and I'll say it again: I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns.
Fortunately, I have seen a bit of voting now, so right after this post, I'm gonna dive some filters, read some scum, and give a vote.
Anyway, who can really give confident scum reads halfway through day one? Anyone one who pretends that they can is either overconfident and bullshitting themselves, or actually scum.
On July 15 2013 02:13 jrkirby wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 01:59 StiMaDDict wrote:@jkirby: I know you said you are working on your reads right now, just reminding you to elaborate and explain this. Honestly? I have real trouble seeing scum until I see voting patterns. I'm slightly more suspicious of Sponge, Umasi, and Rainbows than the rest. Sponge I've stated my reasons for. I don't really trust my read on Rainbows because [meta here] I thought he was scum last time I played with him and he wasn't. Umasi just reads a bit ornery, so that could be the reason for my weak read. Elaboration: What is the real scumtell at the end of the day? Who they voted for, when and why. Any scum can say anything they like, for example, they could choose to post a list of lurkers or choose not to post a list of lurkers. While some people might think that what they say is the scumtell, for example, Chromatically thinks anyone who posts a list of lurkers is automatically scum, in the end, scum can choose either way, and act as townish as they possibly can. Where the scum CAN'T hide, is their vote. Scum always vote with another reason behind it. They might buss each other, they might sheep, might spread out, might vote together. But at the end of the day, they vote with a different reason than town. And looking at how they vote is how you can find that. If no one has voted, I really don't think that you can find scum better than chance.
Voting pattern's are one of the things that we look at to find scum. However, they are primarily used in association with reads that you already have. In fact, it is probably better to form reads first and then see if the voting patterns justify the reads.
It might well be that you are not confident in your scum-hunting yet, but that does not mean that you should not try. In fact, your exchange with Sponge shows us that you were trying to scum-hunt at the start of the day. You claimed to be suspicious of Umasi and Rainbows. You did nothing to attempt to clarify your read on Umasi. You did attempt to clarify your read on Rainbows, but for one reason or another gave up very quickly.
I think your defence is believable from a town perspective, but it is also weak and therefore does nothing to change my current read on you, which is scummy.
To address Kirby's defence of his Stim interaction (which is why I think that Kirby is scummy):
On July 13 2013 13:38 jrkirby wrote:
I don't think he's town. I think he's stupid, and have a nullread.
On July 15 2013 01:47 jrkirby wrote:
And when I'm talking to someone to try to help them calm down, I'm going to phrase it from a "we're both town" perspective. Doing it any other way is going to backfire.
Then why did you call him stupid?
This is the most damning point that I have seen against you. You treat Stim as though you have a town read on him and then call him stupid and claim to have a null read.
You now say that you were trying to help him calm down. Yet you called him stupid.
When in your life have you ever gotten someone to calm down by calling them stupid? Why did you call Stim stupid?
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Germany1217 Posts
So I've done some analysis of the voting patterns of the moment. JrKirby is in grave danger... why isn't he voting Super?
That strikes me as odd. Scum would do it to stay alive. Town would do it to stay alive. Anyone have some insight as to motivation (with the exception of 'he thinks Gotard is scum and not Super') because I can't justify it from either alignments perspective.
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On July 15 2013 02:57 Rainbows wrote:
So I've done some analysis of the voting patterns of the moment. JrKirby is in grave danger... why isn't he voting Super?
That strikes me as odd. Scum would do it to stay alive. Town would do it to stay alive. Anyone have some insight as to motivation (with the exception of 'he thinks Gotard is scum and not Super') because I can't justify it from either alignments perspective.
He really doesn't want to look like he's sheeping. He thinks that he'll look suspicious if he just wagons on Super, so he tries to vote for an "original scumread" so that people see him as more town. It makes more sense from scum like this.
Then he can switch to Super later with the justification that "my scumread wasn't going to happen so I'll consolidate".
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On July 15 2013 02:57 Rainbows wrote:
So I've done some analysis of the voting patterns of the moment. JrKirby is in grave danger... why isn't he voting Super?
That strikes me as odd. Scum would do it to stay alive. Town would do it to stay alive. Anyone have some insight as to motivation (with the exception of 'he thinks Gotard is scum and not Super') because I can't justify it from either alignments perspective.
There are several hours until the deadline so he can move his vote later as required. I would not read too much into it.
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On July 15 2013 02:57 Rainbows wrote:
So I've done some analysis of the voting patterns of the moment. JrKirby is in grave danger... why isn't he voting Super?
That strikes me as odd. Scum would do it to stay alive. Town would do it to stay alive. Anyone have some insight as to motivation (with the exception of 'he thinks Gotard is scum and not Super') because I can't justify it from either alignments perspective.
If he were to vote Super, then it's onpy viewed sheeping. Gotard is third with votes, there is a tiny chance that bandwagon would form there. He can switch his vote later if wants. It's not a hard evidence that jkirby is a scum but he has pretty weak case on Gotard. Also what a irony that jkirby points out Gotard sheeping on him.
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Germany1217 Posts
I think Gotard is scum and is trying to lynch Jrkirby instead of Super, his scumbuddy :p dem pre-flip associations. So bad, but so tempting.
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Oops, I guess I wasn't fast enough.
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On July 15 2013 02:03 jrkirby wrote:Gotard is really sheeping with his vote on me. In one post, he says I "confuse him a little" before anyone has voted me. Then he votes me saying: What? You think that you can just sheep me because of the two biggest bandwagons, you like this one better? You think you don't need to do anything, and it's just fine to jump on whatever BW you see fit? Because that is NOT ok. You better pick up your play, because that is scum. He reiterates a couple of things other people have said, and doesn't even get all of it, and misinterprets even basic things: Show nested quote +His post claiming that hzflank is mafia was awkward and then he defended himself saying that it was only a joke/pressure combo. That was like the third post of the day, and I was quoting things that happened before the game even started. If you thought there was a chance that it was completely serious, then you weren't paying much attention. On top of that, he's barely posted, hasn't posted an original scumread, and has pressured no one. Guys, I think we found scum. Vote: Gotard
Since the majority of votes is required to lynch someone you need to jump on wagons or make really strong case for other to follow and some people are just better than me at doing that.
What do you mean by saying "You think you don't need to do anything, and it's just fine to jump on whatever BW you see fit". You can say stuff like that about 50% of the players in this game... And this bandwagon of course fits me because I find you scummy.
"That was like the third post of the day, and I was quoting things that happened before the game even started. If you thought there was a chance that it was completely serious, then you weren't paying much attention.". Then what was the point of that post? To confuse people? To make fake content? I don't see how that post was pro town in any way. It was simply useless.
"On top of that, he's barely posted, hasn't posted an original scumread, and has pressured no one.". It's hard to post "original scumread" when you are in EU timezone and game is the most active when you sleep. Do you want me to talk to myself? rotfl. (That was a little scummy excuse T_T). I do what I can do which is more passive play.
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@Rainbow: Explain your unvote on Gotard please. Has your scumread on him changed or do you feel as if you need to change your vote due to majority voting system.
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Germany1217 Posts
On July 15 2013 03:15 StiMaDDict wrote:
@Rainbow: Explain your unvote on Gotard please. Has your scumread on him changed or do you feel as if you need to change your vote due to majority voting system.
I think he's scum. Just not the scum we're lynching today.
Since he's voting JrKirby, I feel like Super is the better lynch.
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On July 15 2013 03:16 Rainbows wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 03:15 StiMaDDict wrote:
@Rainbow: Explain your unvote on Gotard please. Has your scumread on him changed or do you feel as if you need to change your vote due to majority voting system. I think he's scum. Just not the scum we're lynching today. Since he's voting JrKirby, I feel like Super is the better lynch.
You're voting purely based on preflip associations, which you just said were bad?
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Can we get a Super lynch going? Chromatically could you please consider this? Don't you think that Kirby is better for town if both Kirby and Super are at this point equally scum? Kirby posts much better than Super, if Kirby is scum I feel like it will be easier to catch him later on than Super.
I see that you guys (StiM, Croma) are thinking that I am scum. It's fine by me, we can discuss it later, I am not going to stop posting, I am during Europe times online A LOT, you can keep grilling me.
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On July 15 2013 03:21 Koshi wrote:
Can we get a Super lynch going? Chromatically could you please consider this? Don't you think that Kirby is better for town if both Kirby and Super are at this point equally scum? Kirby posts much better than Super, if Kirby is scum I feel like it will be easier to catch him later on than Super.
I see that you guys (StiM, Croma) are thinking that I am scum. It's fine by me, we can discuss it later, I am not going to stop posting, I am during Europe times online A LOT, you can keep grilling me.
This is blatantly untrue. Super actually posts scumreads with reasoning. Kirby does not.
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On July 15 2013 02:51 Chromatically wrote:Show nested quote +On July 15 2013 02:48 jrkirby wrote:On July 15 2013 02:38 Chromatically wrote:
Well, what information did you get from it? We got that he claims to have a post that he would've posted on the condition that he's scum, but he won't post it. He clearly admitted it. And there's an obvious scum reasoning behind that: He didn't actually have something to post, because he IS scum. That isn't to say there isn't neutral motivations, as he already posted one. We also got to see how he defends himself. Apparently he does it in a calm rational manner, and provides clear (if somewhat dubious) reasoning for his actions. If you don't have anything new to ask me, I'm going to read his filter now. So it sounds like you got a scummy feel from the situation. However, you never show any signs of this. Why wouldn't you pressure vote him? Why wouldn't you keep pressuring him? Why wouldn't you ask others for reads on him?These are all things that townies would do to develop and push their reads, but you never show any interest in Sponge after this. You show no signs at all that you actually care about Sponge's alignment.
It actually might have been a good idea for me to put a pressure vote on him. I'm not the greatest player, but that sounds like that would've been a good idea. Too bad I didn't think of that earlier. I didn't keep pressuring him because I didn't have anything to pressure him on. I guess I should've asked for others' reads on him too. This is all good advice, wish I had thought of it earlier myself. Thanks.
My current view on Hurricane: I think hes scum, but a very bad day one lynch.
Reasoning:
1) He claims he wanted stim to act all angry. I personally disagree, and I think angry players are as bad for town as lurkers.
2) He votes against me, the only person really putting any pressure on him at all. This is only after I already have two votes, as well.
3) His refusal to post something about this mafia game that I asked him to.
I don't think he'd make a good day one lynch, because he's a logical rational player who writes well. If I am wrong about him, he'd make a good ally on the town team.
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EPT
