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On April 11 2013 21:23 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 21:19 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2013 21:18 marvellosity wrote:On April 11 2013 21:16 Dandel Ion wrote:
RNG es #1.
And if the game was normal deadline lynches, I'd argue the scumteam would have been mighty fine.
You're all overexaggerating the people-balance thing, and none of the "vets" had that big of an impact or "thread influence" or whatever. It was a solid all-around town performance, and town happened to pick up bigtime after 48 hours of day1 were over. ...precisely, it was a solid town performance because town was so stacked and *mafia* didn't have the thread influence, which is completely the point. that's mafia's fault, not the fault of the host or the player distribution. People have certain abilities and strengths, it's pointless saying it's the fault of the players for not having it when they were already known to not have it. Stupid.
So no one gets better at the game?
So you should just GG out at the beginning of the game if you're scum and you even think your team is inferior?
What a fucking defeatist attitude.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On April 11 2013 21:24 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 21:23 marvellosity wrote:On April 11 2013 21:19 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2013 21:18 marvellosity wrote:On April 11 2013 21:16 Dandel Ion wrote:
RNG es #1.
And if the game was normal deadline lynches, I'd argue the scumteam would have been mighty fine.
You're all overexaggerating the people-balance thing, and none of the "vets" had that big of an impact or "thread influence" or whatever. It was a solid all-around town performance, and town happened to pick up bigtime after 48 hours of day1 were over. ...precisely, it was a solid town performance because town was so stacked and *mafia* didn't have the thread influence, which is completely the point. that's mafia's fault, not the fault of the host or the player distribution. People have certain abilities and strengths, it's pointless saying it's the fault of the players for not having it when they were already known to not have it. Stupid. So no one gets better at the game? So you should just GG out at the beginning of the game if you're scum and you even think your team is inferior? What a fucking defeatist attitude.
That's not what I said, way to know how to read!
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Also, a better way to balance games, is to disallow the clearly weaker or stronger players. It would probably make the games more enjoyable in total.
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I'm sensing an LI bus between wbg and marvellosity here
##Vote Double Lynch
##Vote: wherebugsgo
##vote: marvellosity
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You say it's not the player's fault for not having an ability when they are "known" not to have it.
What the fuck? How can you know a person's ability in this game? There are no reliable indicators of skill level in mafia when they change even between games.
Not even winrates are that useful because the sample sizes are too small, and the games are team-based, not individual based.
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On April 11 2013 21:25 Tunkeg wrote:
Also, a better way to balance games, is to disallow the clearly weaker or stronger players. It would probably make the games more enjoyable in total.
and again, this is ridiculous.
1, you have to come up with some sort of standard, and I guarantee you that very few people will agree on it.
2, it's discriminatory and unfair.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
On April 11 2013 21:26 wherebugsgo wrote:
You say it's not the player's fault for not having an ability when they are "known" not to have it.
What the fuck? How can you know a person's ability in this game? There are no reliable indicators of skill level in mafia when they change even between games.
Not even winrates are that useful because the sample sizes are too small, and the games are team-based, not individual based.
You can't tell who's a good player and who's not so good? Seriously? Are you unable to assess players' strengths depending on the numerous games you've seen from them? Are you that unaware?
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On April 11 2013 21:25 Tunkeg wrote:
Also, a better way to balance games, is to disallow the clearly weaker or stronger players. It would probably make the games more enjoyable in total.
The problem is that if you disallow the clearly weaker players, they won't get a chance to get better. If you disallow the stronger players, you might lose them and they can teach a lot to weaker players. You could go for two 'leagues', shit league and vet league, but that could also split up the community.
To me, the best way of balancing is just pure RNG and fiddle with the roles if it's really bad.
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United States22154 Posts
On April 11 2013 17:17 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 16:14 Oatsmaster wrote:On April 11 2013 16:11 DarthPunk wrote:
Looking back on it that axle wagon really raped the scum team. yup. Both of us were sleeping/out. That was probably the tipping point. Marv dying just screwed us over more. Lightning rod should never be ever used again Dandel. It basically takes out the choice in NK day 1 for scum which wouldve been somewhat vital this game. Nah lightning rod was balanced. Anyone who didn't read the OP (surprisingly many players) could have killed it with their vig shot. As a power role it is only mildly useful for town IMO.
You can't possibly balance something around "I hope town doesn't read the OP"
Lightning rod isn't really fun because it condemns whoever has it to die night 1, as well as guarantees the absence of a medic.
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On April 11 2013 21:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 21:22 Dandel Ion wrote:
I would say the only bad thing about it is, scum players see their team, think "shit we have no chance because no vets" and basically give up, roll over and die.
But that's really not my fault. So kinda like you in British Empire Mini Mafia II then?
lol, that was one of my best scum games.
But that's cuz I'm bad.
keep being salty.
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On April 11 2013 21:28 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 21:26 wherebugsgo wrote:
You say it's not the player's fault for not having an ability when they are "known" not to have it.
What the fuck? How can you know a person's ability in this game? There are no reliable indicators of skill level in mafia when they change even between games.
Not even winrates are that useful because the sample sizes are too small, and the games are team-based, not individual based.
You can't tell who's a good player and who's not so good? Seriously? Are you unable to assess players' strengths depending on the numerous games you've seen from them? Are you that unaware?
Tell me, do you always catch scum all the time?
Yes, there are certain players who are very good at this game and consistently good at that. I can name maybe four. However, even they do not always play well. Look at Foolishness's last game. Or Ver.
In order to balance games effectively you need a RELIABLE indicator of skill. Just saying "this guy is good" is very subjective, you can't compare him to others.
In addition, it brings up a host of other problems. How do you guarantee that players cannot use the information that the game is balanced from a player perspective to their interest? How do you guarantee that given players have the proper chance to roll scum or town if you are handpicking the teams or hand balancing?
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On April 11 2013 21:30 Restraining Order wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 21:24 Artanis[Xp] wrote:On April 11 2013 21:22 Dandel Ion wrote:
I would say the only bad thing about it is, scum players see their team, think "shit we have no chance because no vets" and basically give up, roll over and die.
But that's really not my fault. So kinda like you in British Empire Mini Mafia II then? lol, that was one of my best scum games. But that's cuz I'm bad. keep being salty.
That wasn't me being salty, that was me taking a cheap shot because it'd be funny.
Keep being mad.
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United States22154 Posts
On April 11 2013 21:28 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 21:26 wherebugsgo wrote:
You say it's not the player's fault for not having an ability when they are "known" not to have it.
What the fuck? How can you know a person's ability in this game? There are no reliable indicators of skill level in mafia when they change even between games.
Not even winrates are that useful because the sample sizes are too small, and the games are team-based, not individual based.
You can't tell who's a good player and who's not so good? Seriously? Are you unable to assess players' strengths depending on the numerous games you've seen from them? Are you that unaware?
When I first started playing my first two scum games I lurked, I lurked like there was no tomorrow, easiest scum read ever.
Cue game #3 as mafia, where I got elected pardoner and generally misled town until drama exploded.
You can tell who's good and who's bad, but you can't predict breakout performances, and discriminating against players because they "aren't good" based off a sample size of 3-5 games seems like an awful idea. Plus, reading "bad" players is part of playing mafia.
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I don't know much about this podcast but perhaps that would be a good forum for this discussion?
Before people start wondering why there is a game of mafia at the beginning of the RNG DISCUSSION thread lol
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On April 11 2013 21:33 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 21:28 marvellosity wrote:On April 11 2013 21:26 wherebugsgo wrote:
You say it's not the player's fault for not having an ability when they are "known" not to have it.
What the fuck? How can you know a person's ability in this game? There are no reliable indicators of skill level in mafia when they change even between games.
Not even winrates are that useful because the sample sizes are too small, and the games are team-based, not individual based.
You can't tell who's a good player and who's not so good? Seriously? Are you unable to assess players' strengths depending on the numerous games you've seen from them? Are you that unaware? When I first started playing my first two scum games I lurked, I lurked like there was no tomorrow, easiest scum read ever. Cue game #3 as mafia, where I got elected pardoner and generally misled town until drama exploded. You can tell who's good and who's bad, but you can't predict breakout performances, and discriminating against players because they "aren't good" based off a sample size of 3-5 games seems like an awful idea. Plus, reading "bad" players is part of playing mafia.
this times 1 million.
What happens when two new players come along and you balance their team of 3 players by putting a vet like Ace on that team to balance it, but those two new players turn out to be really good at scum?
What happens when you have a game with 6 vets, but only one of them is actually good at scum? Do you condemn that guy to playing on scum? What happens when every host thinks the same way you do? That guy will end up playing nothing but scum.
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sciberbia is so right it hurts.
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On April 11 2013 21:27 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 21:25 Tunkeg wrote:
Also, a better way to balance games, is to disallow the clearly weaker or stronger players. It would probably make the games more enjoyable in total. and again, this is ridiculous. 1, you have to come up with some sort of standard, and I guarantee you that very few people will agree on it. 2, it's discriminatory and unfair.
Well it is being done in invites, and then at the hosts discretion. What is the difference between doing this and letting the host arrange the team through no rng. In both cases he have to rate the players.
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On April 11 2013 21:41 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 21:27 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2013 21:25 Tunkeg wrote:
Also, a better way to balance games, is to disallow the clearly weaker or stronger players. It would probably make the games more enjoyable in total. and again, this is ridiculous. 1, you have to come up with some sort of standard, and I guarantee you that very few people will agree on it. 2, it's discriminatory and unfair. Well it is being done in invites, and then at the hosts discretion. What is the difference between doing this and letting the host arrange the team through no rng. In both cases he have to rate the players.
Because in one case it leads to setup speculation potentially killing other people and the other case doesn't.
I'm tempted to host a troll mafia game sometime though and invite only the players with the worst reputation and see what happens.
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On April 11 2013 21:41 Tunkeg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2013 21:27 wherebugsgo wrote:On April 11 2013 21:25 Tunkeg wrote:
Also, a better way to balance games, is to disallow the clearly weaker or stronger players. It would probably make the games more enjoyable in total. and again, this is ridiculous. 1, you have to come up with some sort of standard, and I guarantee you that very few people will agree on it. 2, it's discriminatory and unfair. Well it is being done in invites, and then at the hosts discretion. What is the difference between doing this and letting the host arrange the team through no rng. In both cases he have to rate the players.
except people know that they are invite games. And invite games can have randomly distributed players anyway.
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EPT
