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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 07:02 yamato77 wrote: Why do people act like I should be vigged? If you can't push for my lynch, stop saying dumb bullshit. didnt you promise cases vs BC and VE? if you were town wouldnt you go write them instead of arguing about shit that doesn't matter? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 07:06 WaveofShadow wrote: Ace you make an interesting point but I just don't feel good about a Clarity lynch. How many of those 6 matching voters would you say are scum, and what would it mean if Shiao does turn out to be scum? *nods at the conclusion BC has drawn WoS I honestly don't know yet. I've got a few players I'm leaning Scum on but I won't say because I'm not 100% sure and it doesn't make sense to start more wagons and finger pointing. Lets solve one thing at a time. if Shiao does turn out to be Scum AND clarity doesn't then the matching voters look real townish and I'm just wrong. Why does a clarity lynch feel uneasy to you? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 07:16 WaveofShadow wrote: And this is why I asked Ace my question earlier. I want to find out what he thinks it means specifically, otherwise it just looks like a derailing attempt. yea I am trying to derail the wagon. A wagon I helped start and now realize may be flawed. Respond to the scenarios I made instead of blanket statements. You guys want to lynch Shiao so like I did - assume he is Scum. Look at the list of events that happened and see how a Scum Shiao fits in. I'm not only using voting wagons as I outlined the Palmar sheeping too. From both angels, added in with Sharrant's case on Clarity ShiaoPi is a weaker lynch. He's just clueless townie. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 07:28 raynpelikoneet wrote: My question remains. Why does ShiaoPi think Palmar is supertown and VE is scum when his reasons for VE being scum point at least as much, if not even more, to Palmar being scum. because he is clueless and not reading the thread. He is just sheeping Palmar. I dont think that is a strong enough argument to make him scum. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
@VE: He is lying about reading and understanding. But thats why I also asked how is it worse than what Clarity did? re-read Sharrant's case. Even if you want to say they are both Scummy for lying: ShiaoPi's voting wagon looks much worse than Clarity's. Even if you think ShiaoPi is Scum, I think we can all agree there is some possibility he is just a clueless towny. No one has made that argument for Clarity with supporting points. I add in the wagons and its just icing. I'm looking at BOTH cases from 3 different threads of thought here. And they don't add up when you assume ShiaoPi is scum. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 07:34 VisceraEyes wrote: Lying to town about reading the thread to make it look like he gives a shit and is trying isn't a "strong enough argument to make him scum"? There's no "evidence" in your posts, only hypotheticals and opinions. There's concrete proof that Shiao lied to the thread. CONCRETE Ace. Why are you trying to derail this lynch out of nowhere after saying earlier that you "were willing to switch"? I mean, this "bandwagon" stuff has been on your mind the whole time right? And EARLIER you said Shiao looked like a better lynch BASED ON THE OATS WAGON. NOTHING has changed ASIDE from the fact that NOW Shiao has LIED TO THE FUCKING THREAD ACE. I re-read Sharrant's case. I read ShiaoPi again. I looked at the voting thread AGAIN. I'm going back on my reads on a guy I myself originally wanted to lynch. Don't you think I have a damn good reason to derail it then? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 07:42 VisceraEyes wrote: It's worse because Clarity came clean and said "Yeah that might have been an exaggeration" in exactly the same way that Shiao did NOT. what? so that one sentence undoes the entire Sharrant case, but ShiaoPi's explanation just isn't good enough? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 07:39 VisceraEyes wrote: Ace here's a question. Why would a town ShiaoPi say that he's read the thread when he hasn't if all he's going to do is sheep Palmar with blatant disregard? Why wouldn't a town ShiaoPi just say "Hey thread, too long, no time, didn't read, sheeping Palmar"? he did say that On April 27 2013 02:35 ShiaoPi wrote: Well, that took a lot of time to read. Not so sure about whom to lynch now with tube getting modkilled (lol btw!). I also have very limited time during the entire weekend, which is obviously gimping me by quite a bit as I while only be able to drop by shortly during the evening/late night before I sleep. I am currently torn between clarity and VE. Going with VE for now because I think it is a good idea to sheep Palmar. Go figure. ##vote: VE If there are no direct questions to me in the next couple of minutes I'll be off to bed until I can come back on tomorrow at about the same time as right now. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 07:46 VisceraEyes wrote: So your VCA completely undoes the Vivax case, but Clarity's explanation just isn't good enough? what does VCA mean? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 07:48 VisceraEyes wrote: No, he didn't. He said he read the thread. Look at the top line. "Well that took a lot of time to read" indicating that he read the thread. He didn't ever say he didn't read the thread, he said he read the thread. What are you even posting that as evidence of him saying? He's got limited time. We may be wrong in saying he didn't read the thread at all, but I agree he hasn't been reading it well enough. He did admit to sheeping Palmar like you asked. This sounds like a difference of what degree did ShiaoPi actually read the thread causing an argument. I think it's now clear he read it a little and sheeped his Town read and hero Palmar. Vivax very clearly said he wanted to lynch Shiao FIRST today, and you're using Vivax as a rallying cry to get people to lynch CLARITY Ace. That's why I'm having a hard time trusting your motivations here. And why I'm not going to switch based on your voting analysis. huh? I'm not using Vivax to lynch Clarity. How is that even possible when I made it clear Sharrant's case is partly what I'm basing it off of. Vivax's original statement plus the Oats wagon is what originally led to ShiaoPi. You're confusing the two. The Vote Count Analysis isn't solely what's making me change. I'm going to try and make this clear once more: First thread of thought We have a voting wagon of a Town player making a case on another Town player. We know this because they are both dead and confirmed Town. Clear opportunity for Scum to jump on the wagon - this is where ShiaoPi comes in. When Vivax dies, he is hit on two different threads since Vivax, a confirmed Town player calls him out. Note this doesn't make Vivax's accusation correct - just free from Scum bias. Hold this as the first thread of thought in your head. We get to our current point today. I compare the current Shiao wagon with the original wagon on Oats. I notice there is a large overlap of similar names. For Shiao to be scum TWO things have to happen: majority of the overlap between Oats wagon AND Shiao's would have to be Town. That is a rare possibility in my eyes. When taken in context with the Clarity wagon we see unique voters on his wagon. I don't think all 3 of these things can happen coincidentally. Now hold this as the first thread in your head. Even if you think this doesn't absolve ShiaoPi as scum, and it shouldn't, when added together with other threads of thought it does. Second thread of thought ShiaPi not reading, or barely reading vs Clarity doing the same. The difference here is that Clarity got caught by Sharrant solidly for just looking at buzz words, skimming the thread and coming up with anything. He called out a policy lynch scenario that didn't even happen. ShiaoPi shows up and tells us he doesn't have much time, and is sheeping Palmar. Clearly, he isn't reading much but this IS possible from a town p.o.v.. This is the second thread, hold this in your head. Third thread of thought So now we go back to ShiaoPi's wagon and assume he is Scum. That means if he dies and flips Town a whole host of people are in trouble. But we aren't lynching for information so the next best case is to look at Scum ShiaoPi from a voting aspect. He shows up, isn't reading the thread much. He votes for you VE, and NOT Clarity. The only other real suspect on the block. Even if he is Scum and not reading - how could his Scum team let that happen? they would be incredibly dumb and lazy to do so. Why go after you, a guy who has no real wagon on him and not save his own ass? It doesn't add up if he is Scum. The only explanation is him being Town and not reading enough to know whats going on, or he and clarity are Scum. If the latter case is true then the Scum team would be making an effort to push someone else. No one else is being pushed well from what I can see. If there is point it out to me. We also give you credit for calling tube out, and he did the same. This is the third thread. When you take all 3 seperately there are indeed arguments to be made that ShiaoPi is Town. There are also arguments that could show him Scum - mainly Vivax's accusation and his non-reading ways to sheepville. But Vivax isn't proven to be correct and sheeping isn't a scum only trait. Sharran't case looks much stronger now and ShiaoPi's weaker. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
there seems to be a real effort here not to vote for clarity, and if you believe them both to be Scummy I see no reason why anyone would hesitate to switch. Now I'm confident one wagon is preferred over another when it didn't seem that way earlier. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 08:29 getmoript wrote: Ace, your points are bad and you should feel bad for making them. If clarity is scum, then that's two--TWO--scum who wholly afk'd. In that case, we can disregard the "can't have a lazy scum team" reasoning. Hydra just finished in a blowout (literally only 1 town death) because of lazy scum. Other than The Game, I can't think of an instance of an active, non-lazy scum team. Nothing says two members of the Scum team can't be lazy, and the other 3 active. That is entirely possible. If shiao is scum he can easily pop into the Scum QT and get an update on whats happening from the others. Please respond to my entire post about all 3 threads of thought and not just a small piece. Why is that a rare possibility in your eyes? Especially considering Oats was a mislynch, why is it hard for you to believe that it's mostly, if not all, townies? Scum hide off mislynch wagons ALL THE TIME. I'll agree that it's rare that there are NO scum on a mislynch wagon, but you can say the same thing about scum being on a scum wagon - generally they'll try and save their buddies, but sometimes there's scum on the scum wagon. Factor in the fact that Vivax died after pushing the Oats wagon. Why would scum shoot the guy who pushed the mislynch the previous day? Would that not draw MORE attention to the scum ON the wagon Ace? I dont believe Oats was all Townies because in a game with 13 players to lynch first day and the lynch taking 2+ days - there is no misguided quick lynch there. The wagon was also led by Two town players: Vivax and myself. They can easily escape blame here. That is a prime wagon to hop on to. That is the first situation in which we have a rare event of an all Town wagon happening. The bolded is false. It doesn't happen "all the time", and certainly not enough to make it a known recurring theme. And yes - there ARE sometimes Scum on a scum wagon. But that has nothing to do with what is going on here. Oats was town - that point is irrelevant to the discussion. We aren't analyzing a dead scum's wagon. Factor in the fact that Vivax died after pushing the Oats wagon. Why would scum shoot the guy who pushed the mislynch the previous day? Would that not draw MORE attention to the scum ON the wagon Ace? Lastly someone clearly wanted Vivax, one of the most active players dead. Before he died he called out Clarity (who's been mia for ages), rayn (temporarily cleared), yamato (waiting on him), and ShiaoPi (bingo). 2 of these 3 outside rayne are also on the Oats wagon. Notice clarity popped up here also, but it was sharrant who caught him on a totally different thread of thought. I used this to go after ShiaoPi. Even if you assume that Scum shooting vivax draws more attention to the scum on the wagon you assume Scum is thinking someone would analyze the wagon like I have. that is a stretch, and even if we assume it is true with 13 people on the wagon what exactly are they fearing? That scenario isn't plausible. with Vivax calling out both ShiaoPi AND clarity there is even more reason to look at what seperates the two. I don't see him lying about reading the thread as possible from a townie perspective. Obviously you disagree, but I just can't see a town ShiaoPi saying "I read the whole thread gosh it took a long time" when he clearly didn't read the thread at all. Yes, he's "sheeping Palmar"...but why? I mean if he has any kind of reasoning for thinking Palmar is town and says as much, that would be one thing BUT HE DOESN'T DUDE! His only reasoning is "His reads are similar to mine"....which if that's the case, then he's not really SHEEPING Palmar at all, simply voting with him! I think we're both admitting he didn't read enough. You think he didn't read at all, I think he read a little and didn't understand whats going on. I can't answer why he sheeps Palmar except his own words of sheeping a Vet. It is entirely possible he sees Palmar as a Town vet and decided to sheep his reads because he has little time. He isn't reading enough, doesn't see Palmar is probably just joke voting you and hops on. Entirely consistent with someone that doesn't understand what is going on. Voting with Palmar is sheeping him by the way. I dont know what definition of sheeping you are using but that isn't it. I'm interested to hear why you think I'm not a "real suspect on the block". Yes, I don't have as many votes as the other candidates, but SEVERAL players have been in here SCREAMING about how I'm scum. I've been a viable candidate ALL FUCKING DAY LONG. And how would he even KNOW this without reading the thread unless he's scum getting information from his team? As I said earlier - I agree with CC that tube's inactivity was bound to draw mod-action eventually and Shiao calling him out shouldn't give him any points just like it shouldn't give ME any points. If you're giving me points for that, whatever - but I'm not giving Shiao points for that because until halfway through today he had made ONE SINGLE POST in the game. No one pushed hard for your lynch, and you didn't have many votes. Last night, the threadwas clearly about Clarity and ShiaoPi. You weren't in danger at all. People scream about others being scum all day long - doesn't mean jack shit until they vote. Why are you making a big deal out of it? To the bolded: What? I think I know what you're trying to say but I want to be sure. Can you quote evidence of this happening? Where does he state this? | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 08:34 raynpelikoneet wrote: I do not think ShiaoPi voting for VE over Clarity tells us much just looking by the fact that who he voted for. In my opinion it matters a little on who your vote is on unless it's on the person who got lynched. Far more important is why people vote for people they do. Based on this point of yours Ace, would you call yamato town aswell? After all he did oppose Oats lynch later on on D1 very vocally. I don't think this tells much about yamato's alignment, as Oats was lynched and yamato certainly had no credibility to swing the vote on anyone else. Same thing here, ShiaoPi is one of the leading candidates. He does have no credibility to get Clarity or VE lynched, it really does not matter who he votes for just based on the vote itself. Worst case scenario (assuming he is mafia) is that he votes for Clarity and this action gives people more reasons to vote for him (assuming Clarity is town - as ShiaoPi can't possibly have rock-solid reasons for his vote). If he votes for someone else, it looks better on him (as is the deal here with you for example). And i think his reasoning for VE being scum is bullshit and points more to his hero Palmar than to VE, after all he did give reasoning why he thinks VE is scum, when i asked him about it. Other points you bring up might have merit, i need to look closer into them and decide what to do. First to the bolded: context matters. I dont think it, by itself tells all we need to know. But it is consistent with what he has been doing - sheeping Palmar. Thats what his vote tells us by itself. Once we remember he is at stake to die he just looks like a bad player not reading enough. It matches up with everything he has posted so far. I'm not calling yamato town and the scenarios don't even match. yamato not voting for Oats is because yamato is being an ass and doing whatever he pleases, clearly not caring about his possible death until now. He could be scum that knew the chances of him dying were low, or he gave up and was resigned to his possible fate. But he was clearly reading the thread, shiao wasn't. shiao doesn't have credibility but he doesn't need to lead a lynch. He just has to vote for Clarity to help save himself. He doesn't. he just sheeps as you stated, Palmar. it does matter who he votes for because if he is Scum, the best vote is for the other leading wagon. If he did that and as we all claim he is not reading the thread, it would be more points in moving the needle that way. But he doesn't, he just votes for his sheep master's read. It matches that he isn't reading enough to understand thread sentiment. The only explanation as I noted before is they are both Scum. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
On April 27 2013 08:54 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm saying he's not reading the thread. How would he know that I'm a viable lynch candidate if he's not scum getting information from his team (i.e. townShiao as you posit). But you disagree that I've been a viable lynch candidate. I'm basing it on thread sentiment, you're basing it off votes. I think they're equally indicative in games, you must not. But it doesn't even matter anymore because I'm through wasting energy trying to argue with you about it. I think they both look really bad (all this time I've been rereading Clarity's filter/Sharrant's case) and I want the rest of town to provide opinions rather than scream over and over that one piece of shit is smellier than another piece of shit, so to speak. Where does he call you a viable lynch candidate? if he says this and is not blatantly sheeping Palmar again your point stands. Notice I AM basing it off thread sentiment. I think you're either paranoid or overblowing how much people wanted you dead. I may have missed it but I never got the vibe you were really going to be lynched today over the other 2. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
and likewise if he flips Scum? What are the next paths that we take? | ||
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