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On March 19 2013 14:00 Wade Fell wrote:Like I could have masoned Glurio or Vivax or Hyaach and none of those guys know me remotely well enough to finger my scum play via Mason QT. There are also plenty of plausible vets to mason, from Kitaman to DYH to Wiggles. I masoned people who have interacted with me extensively because as a town player, that's where I have most to gain. And yes, I am aware as a scum player I could just mason who I'd mason as town and this seems WIFOMey, but it's not WIFOM: It's WTHTD (link), Wine That's Harder To Drink. My actions make perfect sense as town, and although as scum I might do them just to appear town, it would be enormously risky to do so.
I dont have your experience, but with common sense. I mason with people I think are town and trying to run ideas together with
Why mason a scum read, who would lead u in circles and then shoot you?
The benefit in my opinino of a town mason, is the ability to "hydra"... so im gonna be very curious about these logs BH
ve
Can you please confirm the agenda of discussion BH was pushing with you?
Was he trying to discuss reads; or just push GK?
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On March 19 2013 14:04 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:00 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 13:57 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 13:52 VisceraEyes wrote:On March 19 2013 13:45 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 13:39 Wade Fell wrote:
As an aside, another reason I masoned GK is that I've interacted with him in QTs before when I coached him, and I knew I'd be able to get a perfect read on him from doing so, as well as help his scumhunting.
Coming in as a replacement. I noticed you keep trying to reenforce you know GK well cos you coached him I find, a one time admission of this is usually what a town player does. But you have done it repeatedly, leading to two conclusions (1) You hope you have town cred, and trying to make an appeal to popularity for GK to be town (2) You are establishing a minor "newbie" shroud over GK, essentially an additional appeal Considering I dont have a town read at all from GK... and factoring your coach comments above AND CONSIDERING AS WELL you're a much more meek and timid personality (comp. Mafia LX). I would bank you are both scum Sandroba said it best...Let me remind you. On March 16 2013 22:24 sandroba wrote:
BH is trying to emulate his previous behavior. Respond to this post BH, because it contains no ad hom attacks and raises points I'd like you to address. Why were you so bent on emulating your previous, confident play earlier on while your play since suggests a more cautious, reserved approach? I'm not emulating my confident play-- my play, if you don't count my blue actions, is utterly confident. Yes, my choice of mason targets was cautious, but I was unable to post as much as I'd like during D1 because TPS and sandro's cycles lined up. The fact of the matter is, I had more to gain and far less to lose from masoning GK than from masoning one of my scumreads, especially when those scumreads are TPS and Testsubject, both of whose intransigence would likely not translate well to a mason QT. Was GK a newbie, and probably easily impressioned by me? Sure, of course. But on the other hand, he's also a newbie who has been coached by me. He knows how I think and how I hunt scum. Of all the various newbies in this game to mason, GK is the most likely to figure me out if I am scum. Of all the various vets in this game to mason, Ve is the most ly likely to figure me out if I am scum. My blue actions are for discussion scumreads, and cautious, but if I were scum they'd be hideously risky. I'd really feel better if GK were here to talk also *nudge nudge* Course u do, it would be coordinated if GK was here. I dont like this BH.. this reads as a politician trying to sway me around "I had more to gain and far less to lose." Blah Blah Blah Town BH is Motherfucker.. i did this, its the right choice, dont question me Keep up those meek and timid speeches scumIf u want me to start pulling Mafia LX quotes and providing contrast I shall oblige... if u havnt forgotten (MilkSuckler- me) and you had epeen battles in LX.. and this is going radically different. Now that game I am town... this game im town That game you were town.. this game.. (well surely u can spot the difference) It wouldn't be coordinated though would it? I thought the mason 'connection' ends with each phase, meaning his connection now is with VE? If you look at his earlier posts defending GK he is trying to coordinate a defense there and sounds pretty confident aside from when GK basically leaves him in the lurch and doesn't show up. Which posts specifically lead you to believe he is acting rather than actually going through with 'motherfucker' BH, Mocsta?
This will drop my credibility of attack. But in fairness. I am only familiar with the posts from 7->20 and 40 -> 47
In those posts, BH is timid (in particular his opening).. im not aware of modkill threatens. So ima take a step back and re-evaluate
P.S. the coordination wasnt in reference to mason QT lol
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On March 19 2013 14:07 Wade Fell wrote:Look, you guys can say "Blazinghand isn't playing like he did last game" all you want, but last game D1 scum was obvious, and every day after that I had a red check on an obvious scum player. I'll reference Mario mini where people said "BH isn't playing like his town play" and basically wehre after me for meta reasons (link)
You bought yourself time with this argument. I have no counter, because the point is indeed valid.
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On March 19 2013 14:09 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:07 VisceraEyes wrote:
I wouldn't call masoning with me "risky" and I'm sure most of the vets on this site would agree with me...but that's a conversation for another time because that part of the argument IS WIFOM.
The fact of the matter is that during the day I made no secret about having a town-read on you based on your early play - if you'll recall I invited you in this thread to be on The Team. Obviously any assertion that you were "at risk" by masoning me is pretty much null considering that scum have to take risks to win the game. It becomes a question of when, and what kinds of opportunities arise. Not because of your read on me, VE-- at the end of D1 EVERYONE had a townread on me basically. Because we've played dozens of games together, and out of everyone here you are the single player who knows me best. If there's anyone in this game I wouldn't mason as scum, it would be you. Not because of your reads, not because you're some super scumhunter (though you are talented), but because you know me best. That's why you and GK are both risky for me as a scum player to mason, but both excellent for me as a town player to mason: you know me well. This isn't WIFOM, it's WTHTD.
Nah.. i masoned a guy in personality that knew me best out of everyone.. and i was scum
its even more powerful if you can convince that guy you are town.. surely that skill level is not beneath u BH?
not buying that argument.
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Keirathi, you reminding me a lot of u in hydra
All
The guy Kei replaced.. was he a town, null or scum read?
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On March 19 2013 14:20 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:19 Mocsta wrote:
Keirathi, you reminding me a lot of u in hydra
All
The guy Kei replaced.. was he a town, null or scum read? The guy I replaced had 0 posts.
Ahh k.. well in that case, i will push the read back to null then :0
U gotta work for the love dear
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On March 19 2013 14:24 Wade Fell wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 14:23 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:22 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:22 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:21 Wade Fell wrote:On March 19 2013 14:20 Keirathi wrote:On March 19 2013 14:19 Mocsta wrote:
Keirathi, you reminding me a lot of u in hydra
All
The guy Kei replaced.. was he a town, null or scum read? The guy I replaced had 0 posts. lol I know, right? I actually had a HYOOOJ townread on the guy you replaced Scum. omg dood i told u not 2 bus me yet
Im just gonna put it out there..
im finding this interaction odd.. im not saying its scummy... theres just something peculiar about it, feels forced
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Interesting, you're reasoning for masoning VE was sound.. yet i dont recall you saying that when questioned prior..
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GK PMs read to me, as how i handled masoning promethelax in personality.
Lots of agreeing with what the originator says.. and not taking hard stances
im not sold on him being town
The towniest thing GK did was recommened you mason ya best townr ead.. BUT that is not alignment indicative.. its common sense.
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On March 19 2013 15:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
BH you have an unhealthy obsession with Geript imo. And I was pissed at him last game but I've since played in another NMM with him and he's perfectly capable of decent play; I think he may have learned from LX and doesn't seem likely to repeat it (though he's certainly trollier now).
If you survive the night, make a case on Geript and I'll listen to it if it's actually based on decent reads and not an emotional response to him.
Still waiting on the other stuff you promised too, daypost is coming up real soon I think.
That actually gave me townie points on BH... im surprised we treating this "tell' so differently
Will have to re-read the logs, they REALLY hard to read.
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On March 19 2013 15:20 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:16 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 15:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
BH you have an unhealthy obsession with Geript imo. And I was pissed at him last game but I've since played in another NMM with him and he's perfectly capable of decent play; I think he may have learned from LX and doesn't seem likely to repeat it (though he's certainly trollier now).
If you survive the night, make a case on Geript and I'll listen to it if it's actually based on decent reads and not an emotional response to him.
Still waiting on the other stuff you promised too, daypost is coming up real soon I think. That actually gave me townie points on BH... im surprised we treating this "tell' so differently Will have to re-read the logs, they REALLY hard to read. Yeh gotta read from bottom to top and then the dates/signatures are hard too. I'm not saying that his obsession with geript is scummy per se, but I have an overall null read on Geript so if there's something I'm missing to make him look scummier I'd be interested to see if BH can bring something purely objective to the table.
Actually for me the tell was how he went about discussing Geript.. Maybe i have been conned, but I read genuine consideration being given..
My take was that BH is instinctively driven to lynch a player like Geript (too much deviation in play styles). As scum he could EASILY push that lynch on that validation. Instead, he is actively querying other peoples thoughts to see if its just him being tunneled, or there is something there.
Now yes, scum coudl be fishing on a push.. but lets be serious.. Geript is lynchbait, you dotn need to go to that effort to validate the push.
I am reading this as a town guy trying to actively put consideration into his targets.
As I said before.. the Log format is a fuckn bitch to read.. so I would like to read it one more time (will prob copy/paste the logs into word or soemthing.. just to confirm im not missing some funny business.. but I think that he handled Geript the same to both VE and GK gives consistency to the tell. (He didnt know he was gonna post the mason log either remember!)
Thoughts WoS?
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On March 19 2013 15:27 Keirathi wrote:
@sciberbia:
I'm not interested in lynching zare right now. For one, I don't know his meta and I don't have time to read it tonight. But for two, he's mostly reading as newbie town to me. I completely disagree with his case on Hopeless, but that's because I am very familiar with Hopeless' play. But otherwise, he brought up some solid points on Hopeless and Wiggles. He seems to be trying to figure things out like a newbie town would.
My biggest problem with his play, actually, is him playing the newbie card. But that's not enough that I'm interested in him for now. He's fine to leave alive a bit longer and see how things progress.
U liked his first post?
As a funny tidbit:
zarepath done some weird shit as newbie town. Last game i played with him, he wrote a fake case on someone he had a town read on.. to gauge reactions.. the fake case was so good. the target (WaveofShadow IIRC pertty much gave up LOL)
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devious.. i noticed BH posted the logs, and GK added his 2c in within 1min.. maybe coincidence 
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On March 19 2013 15:35 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:31 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 15:27 Keirathi wrote:
@sciberbia:
I'm not interested in lynching zare right now. For one, I don't know his meta and I don't have time to read it tonight. But for two, he's mostly reading as newbie town to me. I completely disagree with his case on Hopeless, but that's because I am very familiar with Hopeless' play. But otherwise, he brought up some solid points on Hopeless and Wiggles. He seems to be trying to figure things out like a newbie town would.
My biggest problem with his play, actually, is him playing the newbie card. But that's not enough that I'm interested in him for now. He's fine to leave alive a bit longer and see how things progress. U liked his first post? As a funny tidbit: zarepath done some weird shit as newbie town. Last game i played with him, he wrote a fake case on someone he had a town read on.. to gauge reactions.. the fake case was so good. the target (WaveofShadow IIRC pertty much gave up LOL) No, I didn't "like" his first post. It is full of bad rationale and terrible arguments ("Someone told me that VE always claims town in his opening post, but him doing it this game is scummy anyways"). But that's not exactly the kind of things I expect a newbie scum to say either. Honestly, it feels like a newbie town trying to have a good reason to start posting, but failing. His thoughts are free-flowing and not pre-constructed. He's not being "clean" with them. Etc/etc.
Interesting. set my scumdar off.. because its a whole bunch of saying nothing.
Hmm.. Kk, i will relook into him without the bias
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On March 19 2013 15:37 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:30 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 15:20 WaveofShadow wrote:On March 19 2013 15:16 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 15:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
BH you have an unhealthy obsession with Geript imo. And I was pissed at him last game but I've since played in another NMM with him and he's perfectly capable of decent play; I think he may have learned from LX and doesn't seem likely to repeat it (though he's certainly trollier now).
If you survive the night, make a case on Geript and I'll listen to it if it's actually based on decent reads and not an emotional response to him.
Still waiting on the other stuff you promised too, daypost is coming up real soon I think. That actually gave me townie points on BH... im surprised we treating this "tell' so differently Will have to re-read the logs, they REALLY hard to read. Yeh gotta read from bottom to top and then the dates/signatures are hard too. I'm not saying that his obsession with geript is scummy per se, but I have an overall null read on Geript so if there's something I'm missing to make him look scummier I'd be interested to see if BH can bring something purely objective to the table. Actually for me the tell was how he went about discussing Geript.. Maybe i have been conned, but I read genuine consideration being given.. My take was that BH is instinctively driven to lynch a player like Geript (too much deviation in play styles). As scum he could EASILY push that lynch on that validation. Instead, he is actively querying other peoples thoughts to see if its just him being tunneled, or there is something there. Now yes, scum coudl be fishing on a push.. but lets be serious.. Geript is lynchbait, you dotn need to go to that effort to validate the push. I am reading this as a town guy trying to actively put consideration into his targets. As I said before.. the Log format is a fuckn bitch to read.. so I would like to read it one more time (will prob copy/paste the logs into word or soemthing.. just to confirm im not missing some funny business.. but I think that he handled Geript the same to both VE and GK gives consistency to the tell. (He didnt know he was gonna post the mason log either remember!) Thoughts WoS? You call Geript lynchbait...has he actually been as such this game? Looking into his filter his read on zare is more or less what I came up with on him, and he does a decent job attempting to press his reads. Sure he gets trolly later on with BH but if you look at his play in the most recent NMM he has discovered his balls, apparently. I havnt read anything of Geript other than his RNG push, so perhaps im talking out of turn..
But i stand by him being lynch bait.. he gets emotionally flustered too quickly. Geript admits freely he has been voted Least Valuable Town numerous times.. so yeah.
I dunno what to expect from a scum Geript; but based on my heuristic of a lynchbait Geript.. I think BH reasoning is town aligned.
U didnt actually comment on your thought; other than geript isnt lynchbait?
Do you think his logs feel forced in general?
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On March 19 2013 15:39 Keirathi wrote:
Anyways, my point is, I don't have a "Yep, I'm sure this guy is town. There's no way we're lynching him" read on zare. But, I am not interested in lynching him tomorrow. I'm more than happy to give him time to contribute and get a better read on.
I can run with that reasoning.. because.. even though i dont like his play.. the points raised are valid enough to give credence to town motivations.
We shoulda hydraed keir
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On March 19 2013 15:43 Keirathi wrote:
As an aside, lets do some setup speculation.
How likely is it that there are 2 town aligned masons, with Nightmare already flipping? Granted, Nightmare was a mason-vig, but Mason is a pretty damn strong role. In games with temporary masons, you don't often see them so lopsided, numbers wise :o
No idea
IIRC
Mafia LIX had 6 masons from memory out of 30 players
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On March 19 2013 15:43 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:40 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 15:37 WaveofShadow wrote:On March 19 2013 15:30 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 15:20 WaveofShadow wrote:On March 19 2013 15:16 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 15:10 WaveofShadow wrote:
BH you have an unhealthy obsession with Geript imo. And I was pissed at him last game but I've since played in another NMM with him and he's perfectly capable of decent play; I think he may have learned from LX and doesn't seem likely to repeat it (though he's certainly trollier now).
If you survive the night, make a case on Geript and I'll listen to it if it's actually based on decent reads and not an emotional response to him.
Still waiting on the other stuff you promised too, daypost is coming up real soon I think. That actually gave me townie points on BH... im surprised we treating this "tell' so differently Will have to re-read the logs, they REALLY hard to read. Yeh gotta read from bottom to top and then the dates/signatures are hard too. I'm not saying that his obsession with geript is scummy per se, but I have an overall null read on Geript so if there's something I'm missing to make him look scummier I'd be interested to see if BH can bring something purely objective to the table. Actually for me the tell was how he went about discussing Geript.. Maybe i have been conned, but I read genuine consideration being given.. My take was that BH is instinctively driven to lynch a player like Geript (too much deviation in play styles). As scum he could EASILY push that lynch on that validation. Instead, he is actively querying other peoples thoughts to see if its just him being tunneled, or there is something there. Now yes, scum coudl be fishing on a push.. but lets be serious.. Geript is lynchbait, you dotn need to go to that effort to validate the push. I am reading this as a town guy trying to actively put consideration into his targets. As I said before.. the Log format is a fuckn bitch to read.. so I would like to read it one more time (will prob copy/paste the logs into word or soemthing.. just to confirm im not missing some funny business.. but I think that he handled Geript the same to both VE and GK gives consistency to the tell. (He didnt know he was gonna post the mason log either remember!) Thoughts WoS? You call Geript lynchbait...has he actually been as such this game? Looking into his filter his read on zare is more or less what I came up with on him, and he does a decent job attempting to press his reads. Sure he gets trolly later on with BH but if you look at his play in the most recent NMM he has discovered his balls, apparently. I havnt read anything of Geript other than his RNG push, so perhaps im talking out of turn.. But i stand by him being lynch bait.. he gets emotionally flustered too quickly. Geript admits freely he has been voted Least Valuable Town numerous times.. so yeah. I dunno what to expect from a scum Geript; but based on my heuristic of a lynchbait Geript.. I think BH reasoning is town aligned. U didnt actually comment on your thought; other than geript isnt lynchbait? Do you think his logs feel forced in general? I don't think the RNG push means anything, it's just him putting on his troll shoes imo. You make a good point though that every game I've played in with Geript he has been town so I wouldn't know meta-wise what to expect from Geript. I guess I've been unconsciously assuming he's town since his play fits the past 3 games. Is there a particular you have dodged the question @ hand 2 or 3 times in a row?
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On March 19 2013 15:50 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 15:49 Mocsta wrote:On March 19 2013 15:43 Keirathi wrote:
As an aside, lets do some setup speculation.
How likely is it that there are 2 town aligned masons, with Nightmare already flipping? Granted, Nightmare was a mason-vig, but Mason is a pretty damn strong role. In games with temporary masons, you don't often see them so lopsided, numbers wise :o No idea IIRC Mafia LIX had 6 masons from memory out of 30 players But weren't 3 of those town, and 3 scum?
yes that sounds about right from memory
i beleive Dr.H said this is a normal game with flavour (and closed setup)
So we arent ognna expect fucked imbalance or uber roles (like in personality)
I think out of 25 players.. 5scum.. perhaps 6 (if no 3rd party)
5-8 blues (maybe more blues to compensate for closed setup). but blues might be additional masons or whatever
Im not sure if we can really speculate from 1 flip though?
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On March 19 2013 15:51 WaveofShadow wrote:
You want a solid read spelled out for you? Fine. I don't think Geript is scum. I have null-leaning town.
Thats the thing. I was never talking about Geript?
I was talking about BH logs, and the impact on my read on BH... how is this not clear?
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EPT
