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On March 31 2013 13:16 RyuSuzaku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 13:11 cosmicomics wrote:On March 31 2013 13:08 RyuSuzaku wrote:
the policy vig idea is pretty stupid, just give players a regular vig.
It's almost impossible to cleanly define lurking and spamming given that activity standards change with time.
Eh, depends on do you want to win the game vs. do you want to improve overall play of TL Mafia (and have less chance winning that specific game)? Because I'd probably keep the vig for a strong scum read (for the sake of winning), rather than shooting into lurkers / players with playstyles I don't like. there's literally no difference between a 1 shot policy vig and a 1 shot vig other than one is limited by who you can shoot. It's also incredibly hard to balance because the cutoffs for spamming/lurking are completely subjective (so to make it fair you'd probably need to do something like have someone who doesn't have the roles determine whether the shot is valid or not) and if you argue that you can add KP for such a role, then you need to balance for that KP. It's an ugly way to deal with something that arguably isn't a problem that needs to be fixed with roles in the first place.
I'd agree it isn't like a problem we drastically want to address, but there is something very attractive (at least to me) to a "minimal spam" type game. Yes, it's very subjective, but it's also something that I think would be very nice. Which is why I'm gonna go ahead with the invite game and see how that works out.
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On March 31 2013 13:21 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 13:16 RyuSuzaku wrote:On March 31 2013 13:11 cosmicomics wrote:On March 31 2013 13:08 RyuSuzaku wrote:
the policy vig idea is pretty stupid, just give players a regular vig.
It's almost impossible to cleanly define lurking and spamming given that activity standards change with time.
Eh, depends on do you want to win the game vs. do you want to improve overall play of TL Mafia (and have less chance winning that specific game)? Because I'd probably keep the vig for a strong scum read (for the sake of winning), rather than shooting into lurkers / players with playstyles I don't like. there's literally no difference between a 1 shot policy vig and a 1 shot vig other than one is limited by who you can shoot. It's also incredibly hard to balance because the cutoffs for spamming/lurking are completely subjective (so to make it fair you'd probably need to do something like have someone who doesn't have the roles determine whether the shot is valid or not) and if you argue that you can add KP for such a role, then you need to balance for that KP. It's an ugly way to deal with something that arguably isn't a problem that needs to be fixed with roles in the first place. I'd agree it isn't like a problem we drastically want to address, but there is something very attractive (at least to me) to a "minimal spam" type game. Yes, it's very subjective, but it's also something that I think would be very nice. Which is why I'm gonna go ahead with the invite game and see how that works out.
it happened in the past and honestly IMO it was pretty dumb.
I got shot for spamming, syllo got shot for saying "scum" lol.
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On March 31 2013 13:04 RyuSuzaku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 12:50 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think since it is actively discouraging other players from playing for a reason not specifically within the game then it is illegitimate. I see purposely making the game unreadable, or inadvertently making the game unreadable due to constant posting for no reason as a detriment to the game as a whole regardless of alignment. again, you have this irrational bias against BH because he was scum. What Mocsta and VE did is identical (actually, arguably much worse) yet you have nothing against them because they spammed as town. This is a huge double standard. Two solutions to this: 1. request that some sort of rule change be made (and it's unlikely to happen, given how hazy the idea of spamming is-what constitutes it? What's the cutoff? The punishment?) 2. deal with it in-game. IMO number 2 is unequivocally the better option. Hosts already warn for spam, and there's not much else you can do for it.
I didn't know BH was scum when I was hating on him. I wasn't actively around when Mocsta and to a lessor extent, VE were spamming. I did bitch about Mocsta. How was VE much worse? Mocsta was definitely horrible but VE had been defending himself and I don't recall many instances of triple posting or any other wacky stuff.
Although I did have a vendetta against BH from previous games of him hounding me for the same stupid reason regardless of my alignment. So you are right but for the wrong reasons. If he wasn't spammy and annoying early game I wouldn't of said anything to him though.
Spamming is such an issue that you can't simply policy lynch it away. There is usually several players who are racking up ridiculous filters and you can't feasibly kill them all off at once.
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But yeah, the worst part about lurkers/spammers is that it can be really really subjective and is hard to define.
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On March 31 2013 13:21 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 13:16 RyuSuzaku wrote:On March 31 2013 13:11 cosmicomics wrote:On March 31 2013 13:08 RyuSuzaku wrote:
the policy vig idea is pretty stupid, just give players a regular vig.
It's almost impossible to cleanly define lurking and spamming given that activity standards change with time.
Eh, depends on do you want to win the game vs. do you want to improve overall play of TL Mafia (and have less chance winning that specific game)? Because I'd probably keep the vig for a strong scum read (for the sake of winning), rather than shooting into lurkers / players with playstyles I don't like. there's literally no difference between a 1 shot policy vig and a 1 shot vig other than one is limited by who you can shoot. It's also incredibly hard to balance because the cutoffs for spamming/lurking are completely subjective (so to make it fair you'd probably need to do something like have someone who doesn't have the roles determine whether the shot is valid or not) and if you argue that you can add KP for such a role, then you need to balance for that KP. It's an ugly way to deal with something that arguably isn't a problem that needs to be fixed with roles in the first place. I'd agree it isn't like a problem we drastically want to address, but there is something very attractive (at least to me) to a "minimal spam" type game. Yes, it's very subjective, but it's also something that I think would be very nice. Which is why I'm gonna go ahead with the invite game and see how that works out.
You might want to talk to ghost about this. He had a game of this nature planned out and might have some ideas.
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I think posts aren't treated with the same value that they used to be and that makes me sad.
I remember having a 12 page filter in purgatoryand those posts were LONG and full of big spoilers. After that game i realized i had been putting too much time in and have made a conscious effort to take more time off because of the negative impact it was having on my life. But that amount of posting doesn't even sound that high anymore. I post 20-40 times per cycle(day+night) and i labelled a lurker.
Before the start of this game Dr.h made sure to link to guides and asked us to think about our posts. Day1 was moving quite slowly at first and i think he said in irc that he was happy that people were taking the time to think before posting. But as the game went on the thread was filled with hundreds of careless posts and it reached the point where reading let alone analyzing was a task. When people make an effort to consolidate their posts it becomes much easier to follow their train of thought and to know where they stand. When you post a lot or your posts are short people have to piece the bits together and try to find context. And when you post a lot and get into arguments and claim things you don't need to people don't want to try to analyze you. I wonder how many people were deliberately not filtering one of Wade fell, VisceraEyes and Mocsta? As town i might skim but there is no way i am delving through each of their posts in detail.
Posting a lot can be an effective way to play but for me the important thing to do as any alignment is to think what the point of your post is. Every time you post in the thread you should have a reason for making that post and it should further your teams goals. Sometimes there is an important question that needs to be asked, somebody might need prodding or maybe you have a case you can use to nail your target. At the moment it feel like lot's of people are posting conversationally or for the sake of it and it makes it far more difficult for the town to focus. It is possible to have a VE length filter with most or all of it being purposeful, but if you try it and don't post effectively then you are being a big detriment to town.
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Was I the only one that hasn't read anything at all in the game but instantly knew Ryu was scum and DP town when they started arguing (before DP died)?
Didn't read anything else about the game lol
Can someone give me a run down of that "kita saved the day" thing about the Mirror claim? What exactly happened there (in short please)?
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
1) Layabout tells us he's masoned with CC. I think someone mentioned CC was 3p at this point? not sure
2) at some point Layabout claims 3p in scum QT, saying he was converted but is still scum
3) Kitaman tells layabout he too has been converted. Layabout isn't (???) fooled by this, and (knowing kita is in fact scum???), shared crucial information about how the 3p works, thereby giving Kita the means to shut down CC.
I initially thought Kita had suckered Layabout and pumped him for info, but layabout claims he was never suckered/pumped for info, and he offered all that voluntarily and without being fooled.
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On March 31 2013 13:52 layabout wrote:I think posts aren't treated with the same value that they used to be and that makes me sad. I remember having a 12 page filter in purgatoryand those posts were LONG and full of big spoilers. After that game i realized i had been putting too much time in and have made a conscious effort to take more time off because of the negative impact it was having on my life. But that amount of posting doesn't even sound that high anymore. I post 20-40 times per cycle(day+night) and i labelled a lurker.
Before the start of this game Dr.h made sure to link to guides and asked us to think about our posts. Day1 was moving quite slowly at first and i think he said in irc that he was happy that people were taking the time to think before posting. But as the game went on the thread was filled with hundreds of careless posts and it reached the point where reading let alone analyzing was a task. When people make an effort to consolidate their posts it becomes much easier to follow their train of thought and to know where they stand. When you post a lot or your posts are short people have to piece the bits together and try to find context. And when you post a lot and get into arguments and claim things you don't need to people don't want to try to analyze you. I wonder how many people were deliberately not filtering one of Wade fell, VisceraEyes and Mocsta? As town i might skim but there is no way i am delving through each of their posts in detail.
Posting a lot can be an effective way to play but for me the important thing to do as any alignment is to think what the point of your post is. Every time you post in the thread you should have a reason for making that post and it should further your teams goals. Sometimes there is an important question that needs to be asked, somebody might need prodding or maybe you have a case you can use to nail your target. At the moment it feel like lot's of people are posting conversationally or for the sake of it and it makes it far more difficult for the town to focus. It is possible to have a VE length filter with most or all of it being purposeful, but if you try it and don't post effectively then you are being a big detriment to town.
This.
This is exactly how I felt. I loved Day 1, I felt it was really good and harbored a good environment and there wasn't too much if any spam. Day 2 went to shit insanely fast. What you said is true. When someone has a 12+ page filter Day 2 I don't want to go through it and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Like you, life obligations have taken precedence over the time I can spent playing mafia.
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On March 31 2013 13:55 gonzaw wrote:
Was I the only one that hasn't read anything at all in the game but instantly knew Ryu was scum and DP town when they started arguing (before DP died)?
Didn't read anything else about the game lol
Can someone give me a run down of that "kita saved the day" thing about the Mirror claim? What exactly happened there (in short please)?
<3
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On March 31 2013 13:58 Blazinghand wrote:
1) Layabout tells us he's masoned with CC. I think someone mentioned CC was 3p at this point? not sure
2) at some point Layabout claims 3p in scum QT, saying he was converted but is still scum
3) Kitaman tells layabout he too has been converted. Layabout isn't (???) fooled by this, and (knowing kita is in fact scum???), shared crucial information about how the 3p works, thereby giving Kita the means to shut down CC.
I initially thought Kita had suckered Layabout and pumped him for info, but layabout claims he was never suckered/pumped for info, and he offered all that voluntarily and without being fooled.
This is why I really hated this third party role. I felt like if scum was somehow converted he could never authentically play his new role. Either it would be too broken by posting the mafia team and GGing the game, or he would just float back to his team and try to get the third party killed which went directly against his win condition, but would also be creating a new win condition for him by allowing him to regain his former win condition.
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On March 31 2013 13:58 Blazinghand wrote:
1) Layabout tells us he's masoned with CC. I think someone mentioned CC was 3p at this point? not sure
2) at some point Layabout claims 3p in scum QT, saying he was converted but is still scum
3) Kitaman tells layabout he too has been converted. Layabout isn't (???) fooled by this, and (knowing kita is in fact scum???), shared crucial information about how the 3p works, thereby giving Kita the means to shut down CC.
I initially thought Kita had suckered Layabout and pumped him for info, but layabout claims he was never suckered/pumped for info, and he offered all that voluntarily and without being fooled.
Ah.
Wait...so laya knew about kita being scum and the like?
Wait....what if laya KNEW kita was scum (of course seeing through his bluff), but didn't want to be 3p and instead scum?
What if if just said in the scum QT "Okay, I am 3p but I don't want to be, here is all the info about the Mirror...." then real scum wouldn't believe him, and would have thought he was playing games with them (and would thus betray him)?
What if the ONLY way for laya to convince scum to go against cosmic but not laya was to take the bait from kita, act as if he was fooled by kita and give him all the info he would have given scum anyways, but most importantly giving them the info in a context that would convince them the info is legit, thus preventing them from fucking laya over (like for instance killing laya first, then cosmic second)?
If that's true....holy mother spying of god!
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On March 31 2013 14:03 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 13:58 Blazinghand wrote:
1) Layabout tells us he's masoned with CC. I think someone mentioned CC was 3p at this point? not sure
2) at some point Layabout claims 3p in scum QT, saying he was converted but is still scum
3) Kitaman tells layabout he too has been converted. Layabout isn't (???) fooled by this, and (knowing kita is in fact scum???), shared crucial information about how the 3p works, thereby giving Kita the means to shut down CC.
I initially thought Kita had suckered Layabout and pumped him for info, but layabout claims he was never suckered/pumped for info, and he offered all that voluntarily and without being fooled. This is why I really hated this third party role. I felt like if scum was somehow converted he could never authentically play his new role. Either it would be too broken by posting the mafia team and GGing the game, or he would just float back to his team and try to get the third party killed which went directly against his win condition, but would also be creating a new win condition for him by allowing him to regain his former win condition.
That happens all the time with moles and stuff, and cult leaders.
At some games with Cult Leaders you can see some townies playing against town and maybe convincing the Cult Leader to convert them.
Prime example: Every man for himself mafia
I think there are examples of "normal" games where that has happened though
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On March 31 2013 14:10 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 13:58 Blazinghand wrote:
1) Layabout tells us he's masoned with CC. I think someone mentioned CC was 3p at this point? not sure
2) at some point Layabout claims 3p in scum QT, saying he was converted but is still scum
3) Kitaman tells layabout he too has been converted. Layabout isn't (???) fooled by this, and (knowing kita is in fact scum???), shared crucial information about how the 3p works, thereby giving Kita the means to shut down CC.
I initially thought Kita had suckered Layabout and pumped him for info, but layabout claims he was never suckered/pumped for info, and he offered all that voluntarily and without being fooled. Ah. Wait...so laya knew about kita being scum and the like? Wait....what if laya KNEW kita was scum (of course seeing through his bluff), but didn't want to be 3p and instead scum? What if if just said in the scum QT "Okay, I am 3p but I don't want to be, here is all the info about the Mirror...." then real scum wouldn't believe him, and would have thought he was playing games with them (and would thus betray him)? What if the ONLY way for laya to convince scum to go against cosmic but not laya was to take the bait from kita, act as if he was fooled by kita and give him all the info he would have given scum anyways, but most importantly giving them the info in a context that would convince them the info is legit, thus preventing them from fucking laya over (like for instance killing laya first, then cosmic second)? If that's true....holy mother spying of god!
let me point you in the direction of this heuristic aid http://oglaf.com/trapmaster/
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The other problem with 3p in this game is that apparently town had to eliminate them for the game to end?
Imagine if layabout had just hard-bussed all of his former teammates started on day 2. By day 6, all of the scum in the game are dead, and you're left with like 10 townies and 3 3p. 3p doesn't have any KP, so how are they ever supposed to get rid of influential townies? What about blue roles?
You would literally have to sit through up to 10 days of townies vs 0 KP nights. That doesn't even make sense.
If you are going to have a 3p without any KP and only limited growth potential, then they have to be true survivors. Aka, if you are alive when the game ends for town or scum, then you win too. It shouldn't be part of town wincon to have to kill them.
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isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia
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On March 31 2013 14:37 Kenpachi wrote:
isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia
Someone asked and DrH told them that town had to eliminate all non-town.
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On March 31 2013 14:39 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 14:37 Kenpachi wrote:
isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia Someone asked and DrH told them that town had to eliminate all non-town.
Yeah I remembered reading that but couldn't find it anywhere.
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On March 31 2013 14:00 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 13:52 layabout wrote:I think posts aren't treated with the same value that they used to be and that makes me sad. I remember having a 12 page filter in purgatoryand those posts were LONG and full of big spoilers. After that game i realized i had been putting too much time in and have made a conscious effort to take more time off because of the negative impact it was having on my life. But that amount of posting doesn't even sound that high anymore. I post 20-40 times per cycle(day+night) and i labelled a lurker.
Before the start of this game Dr.h made sure to link to guides and asked us to think about our posts. Day1 was moving quite slowly at first and i think he said in irc that he was happy that people were taking the time to think before posting. But as the game went on the thread was filled with hundreds of careless posts and it reached the point where reading let alone analyzing was a task. When people make an effort to consolidate their posts it becomes much easier to follow their train of thought and to know where they stand. When you post a lot or your posts are short people have to piece the bits together and try to find context. And when you post a lot and get into arguments and claim things you don't need to people don't want to try to analyze you. I wonder how many people were deliberately not filtering one of Wade fell, VisceraEyes and Mocsta? As town i might skim but there is no way i am delving through each of their posts in detail.
Posting a lot can be an effective way to play but for me the important thing to do as any alignment is to think what the point of your post is. Every time you post in the thread you should have a reason for making that post and it should further your teams goals. Sometimes there is an important question that needs to be asked, somebody might need prodding or maybe you have a case you can use to nail your target. At the moment it feel like lot's of people are posting conversationally or for the sake of it and it makes it far more difficult for the town to focus. It is possible to have a VE length filter with most or all of it being purposeful, but if you try it and don't post effectively then you are being a big detriment to town. This. This is exactly how I felt. I loved Day 1, I felt it was really good and harbored a good environment and there wasn't too much if any spam. Day 2 went to shit insanely fast. What you said is true. When someone has a 12+ page filter Day 2 I don't want to go through it and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Like you, life obligations have taken precedence over the time I can spent playing mafia. Must be a generation gap.
I thought Day 1 was terrible. It took me forever to read the 30-odd pages.
Why?
All of the posts were heavily refined - to the point - emotions had almost been removed.
I am a "feel" reader, as I suspect most of the newer players are.
We need natural thought processes to gain insight on others alignment.
To exacerbate this quandary; the "tells" everyone were working off Day 1, in my opinion were not genuine scum tells. Perhaps the game has changed from 3 years ago. But these days, activity is not an alignment indicator. Nor is a propensity for attempting to guess smurfs; or laying down early pressure votes for stupid behaviour.
Yes, town had a consolidated post count Day1; but in my opinion it was not conducive to catching scum - due to improper focus of attention.
This was proven throughout the game via the quantity of mislynches, and cases brought forth on scum.
TL;DR
There are many ways to skin a cat.
I am not arguing post consolidation is bad.
I am commenting that post consolidation by itself does NOT make a good town make.
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On March 31 2013 14:03 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 13:58 Blazinghand wrote:
1) Layabout tells us he's masoned with CC. I think someone mentioned CC was 3p at this point? not sure
2) at some point Layabout claims 3p in scum QT, saying he was converted but is still scum
3) Kitaman tells layabout he too has been converted. Layabout isn't (???) fooled by this, and (knowing kita is in fact scum???), shared crucial information about how the 3p works, thereby giving Kita the means to shut down CC.
I initially thought Kita had suckered Layabout and pumped him for info, but layabout claims he was never suckered/pumped for info, and he offered all that voluntarily and without being fooled. This is why I really hated this third party role. I felt like if scum was somehow converted he could never authentically play his new role. Either it would be too broken by posting the mafia team and GGing the game, or he would just float back to his team and try to get the third party killed which went directly against his win condition, but would also be creating a new win condition for him by allowing him to regain his former win condition.
Agree in full.
I think I commented a similar thing in the obsqt.
Im still not sure whether layabout knew he would re-convert though?
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EPT
