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On March 31 2013 16:26 Blazinghand wrote:
Oh yeah I had a huge HYOOOOJ post I made 5 minutes before the deadline the night I died, but the second I posted it DrH posted the day post 5 minutes early and he had me edit my post out ;_;
That agitated me.
I witnissed that post before deletion. And it gave away some leads to follow based on a red flip IIRC
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On March 31 2013 16:28 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 16:26 Blazinghand wrote:
Oh yeah I had a huge HYOOOOJ post I made 5 minutes before the deadline the night I died, but the second I posted it DrH posted the day post 5 minutes early and he had me edit my post out ;_; That agitated me. I witnissed that post before deletion. And it gave away some leads to follow based on a red flip IIRC
It was his decision to make. our posts were made within seconds of each other
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On March 31 2013 16:29 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 16:28 Mocsta wrote:On March 31 2013 16:26 Blazinghand wrote:
Oh yeah I had a huge HYOOOOJ post I made 5 minutes before the deadline the night I died, but the second I posted it DrH posted the day post 5 minutes early and he had me edit my post out ;_; That agitated me. I witnissed that post before deletion. And it gave away some leads to follow based on a red flip IIRC It was his decision to make. our posts were made within seconds of each other
Ohhh yes, i realised that
+
it was well within the rules to request a deletion. (based on the NO post after death clause)
But it was still frustrating deadlines could be +- 5min.
Look @ testsubject vig claim, and how shady that looked in conjunction with your death coming 5 min early.
I think deadlines need to be firm, if you dont have a 1hr deadzone period.
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Oh yea. I can't think of a serious reason for night to ever be ended early.
I think if the host nor cohost can make the deadline, they should find some impartial third party to make the post. Or, even just delay it. I also hate late posts, but I would 10000% rather have a 3 hour late day post than one 5 minutes early with no warning.
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On March 31 2013 16:21 Mocsta wrote:
Well one other thing for me is:
This game specifically confirmed my love for Night Cycle - 23hr action submission deadline.
Considering the 24hr deadline was "fluid"; it was frustrating that the validity of vig claims be questioned purely due to a moving deadline; or BH final words require to be deleted etc
I have only seen the 23hr submission deadline in newbies, so uncertain why it is not apparent in the normal league? Any context I am missing?
if I'm not mistaken, I was the originator of that 1 hour deadline thing (if someone did it before me, then I am unaware)
however for whatever reason only my games ever had it. Apparently one of the newbie game hosts decided it was a good idea, I suppose?
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On March 31 2013 16:32 Keirathi wrote:
Oh yea. I can't think of a serious reason for night to ever be ended early.
I think if the host nor cohost can make the deadline, they should find some impartial third party to make the post. Or, even just delay it. I also hate late posts, but I would 10000% rather have a 3 hour late day post than one 5 minutes early with no warning.
In a game I co-hosted
All 3 of us couldnt be around at the deadline.
So I told the group hours in advance, I would be ceasing the night 30min early. I think as long as notice is given, it can be acceptable, as we all do have social lives 
But, this can all be alleviated via the 23hr action resolution time frame. 
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On March 31 2013 17:17 RyuSuzaku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 16:21 Mocsta wrote:
Well one other thing for me is:
This game specifically confirmed my love for Night Cycle - 23hr action submission deadline.
Considering the 24hr deadline was "fluid"; it was frustrating that the validity of vig claims be questioned purely due to a moving deadline; or BH final words require to be deleted etc
I have only seen the 23hr submission deadline in newbies, so uncertain why it is not apparent in the normal league? Any context I am missing? if I'm not mistaken, I was the originator of that 1 hour deadline thing (if someone did it before me, then I am unaware) however for whatever reason only my games ever had it. Apparently one of the newbie game hosts decided it was a good idea, I suppose?
I guess so? Acrofales is the where I learnt about it.
I think its a really solid idea to implement.
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On March 31 2013 17:17 RyuSuzaku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 16:21 Mocsta wrote:
Well one other thing for me is:
This game specifically confirmed my love for Night Cycle - 23hr action submission deadline.
Considering the 24hr deadline was "fluid"; it was frustrating that the validity of vig claims be questioned purely due to a moving deadline; or BH final words require to be deleted etc
I have only seen the 23hr submission deadline in newbies, so uncertain why it is not apparent in the normal league? Any context I am missing? if I'm not mistaken, I was the originator of that 1 hour deadline thing (if someone did it before me, then I am unaware) however for whatever reason only my games ever had it. Apparently one of the newbie game hosts decided it was a good idea, I suppose?
People do it occasionally.
tbh, it's not too big a difference, provided you're doing the phaseposts on time. Tho obviously it's better when they are not on time.
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that should probably be the default night mechanic for the forum
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On March 31 2013 16:26 Blazinghand wrote:
Oh yeah I had a huge HYOOOOJ post I made 5 minutes before the deadline the night I died, but the second I posted it DrH posted the day post 5 minutes early and he had me edit my post out ;_;
I wonder if that worked out for better or worse. If your posts were in the same minute I probably would of let it slide since he messed up the post times.
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On March 31 2013 17:25 Ace wrote:
that should probably be the default night mechanic for the forum
Night Action Resolution Period™
+ Show Spoiler +
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Upon reading that I'm pretty annoyed. BH's post should of remained if it was within seconds and DrH put the post up early.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Yeah, night finishing early is horrible. Gives me the heebie jeebies.
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On March 31 2013 17:29 RyuSuzaku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 17:25 Ace wrote:
that should probably be the default night mechanic for the forum Night Action Resolution Period™ + Show Spoiler +
The meh case for 48/24
despite it paining (the software engineer in me) me severely
"RACE conditions", such as last wills, and vig targets and scum nks all being in race condition with a potentially variably timed phase end post seems quite unclever...
Most of that can be made largely meh... if everything with time stamp up to (and including or excluding as defined)
the scheduled end of phase is allowed.
last wills time stamped after phase end but even if still before the host post are withdrawn etc...
Then as KISS, and the thing with the shortest description that can possibly work it has redeeming features...
(even though as a programmer, the race condition still makes my skin crawl)
The 48/23/1 may have other new problems..?
The 1 hour can now be used creatively and an new ways.
There currently is a risk when scum send in an nk that the Last will will say something... and that your nk will then mod confirm that person as town and hence be much harder to discredit. (but still plausible as just a wrong townie)
With an entire hour after the actions are sent in, likely nk townies can entirely ambush, by not only posting a last will case but actively arguing the cases in it and answer criticisms of it, before they get nk confirmed as town.
I have a bad feeling this might tend to mean that it is so much more valuable to be completely open and honest about your reads in that one hour than other hours of the game, that it might distort the game somewhat.
Another option
The 48/23/1S where the 1 hr is silent, is not a lot different to 48/24 except the host has the time to get it tight/right.
another option I will call
48/23/1post : says that in the one hour each player is only allowed to make 1 post.
You could even try saying they are only allowed to make one last will post if they PMd the post to the host in the 23hr window with the subject LWill.
That would create a game with (i think) the same game dynamics as now but without the race conditions.
and with an hour for hosts to get the day post accurate.
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On March 31 2013 16:11 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 16:01 Ace wrote:
Recruiter gets notified their conversion failed not knowing why (Priest type roles that block conversion or trying to convert Mafia)
or
Recuiter dies the night they try to convert Mafia. If this happens they either get a new recruiter picked from the existing ones in the faction (broken for obvious reasons) or the better but more controversial way: everyone in the faction dies when the leader dies. I think that is what sl0osh/cosmi assumed was the case. (star crossed lovers IIRC)
Kinda. I was lying when I made my claim, trying to convey the idea that if either layabout or I die, then the other would also die, so that town would hesitate more in lynching me (in my mind layabout was town b/c he didn't act as I thought scum recruit would).
What I thought was the thing in red, that when I die all my followers die, because they failed their wincon, which is keeping me alive. What is the point of a wincon that you can fail, and move on with?
I was true survivor, in that as long as one faction won, or was at LYLO, I would win with them. I'm assuming that meant my followers and I were not counted in numbers, either to scum or town.
I'm not too miffed about it all, beyond hoping to play a "normal" game (recruiter is a very new concept to me so I wasn't expecting that)
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On March 31 2013 14:41 ThePeashooter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 14:39 Keirathi wrote:On March 31 2013 14:37 Kenpachi wrote:
isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia Someone asked and DrH told them that town had to eliminate all non-town. Yeah I remembered reading that but couldn't find it anywhere.
I sent a PM to DrH:
Is it possible for this game to contain non-town entities that are not considered "threats to town" as specified by the town win condition? Or would that fall outside the realm of possibilities in a "Normal game"?
Threats to town is meant to be taken as anyone who is not town aligned.
I was going to include this in my deadline post but that was the night DrH ended night 5 minutes early :/
spiel about recruiter role that you will probably find uninteresting
+ Show Spoiler +
I didn't follow a lot of the conversation about this third party recruiter role, but one thing that I really don't like about it is how the win condition of the mirror image works. The mirror image starts with either the town win condition or the mafia win condition. Then, in order for him to get converted, he must play against his original win condition. Once, he is converted, he essentially has two alternate win conditions, which makes mirror image quite an imba role. He essentially has two chances to win. I recommend that future hosts take things like this into consideration if you want to include a similar role in a future game.
long spiel on closed setups that you will probably find uninteresting
+ Show Spoiler +
On a side note, I don't like closed setups, "hidden" mechanics, or even to a lesser extent semi-open setups in general. Because it greatly benefits a player to be able to guess what kind of setups the host would be likely to make.
For example, VE made the poor decision to out the mirror and not accept the conversion because VE had no information on the setup. In reality, he would have done much better to accept. But how was VE supposed to know this? He just had to guess.
On the other hand, layabout made the good strategic decision to get converted. So did layabout "outplay" VE? Did layabout demonstrate that he is better at the game of mafia? In my opinion, no. He just correctly guessed that it would help him win if he accepted the conversion. "Closed" mechanics introduce a factor of "guess the setup" to mafia, which is otherwise very much a game of skill.
I like setups like C9++, like 4of6, or like that of Nomination Mafia, or Hydra Mini Mafia. Where everybody knows EXACTLY how the setup was created. And it is not a matter of "guess what the host did".
Speaking of which, if there's one thing I really hate about setups, its when hosts "balance" the teams. This is another case of "guess what the host is likely to do". Such as DrH giving GreyMist the nightmare role because GM requested it in his /in post. Anybody that knew DrH would be prone to do this is put at an advantage. And team balancing is unfair to newer players who do not know what teams the host would consider balanced. If hosts want to balance teams, then the only way to make it fair is to specify what teams would be considered balanced, and then redo the RNG until a "balanced" team is RNG'd. Something like "exactly 4 of VE, WF, kitaman, Palmar, marv, sandroba are town". But I would much prefer that teams are completely randomized. I think it would be fun to see Palmar, marv, bugs, and sandroba on a scumteam. It would make a nice change from the balancing that seems to me to be prevalent.
Also, I think that 23+1 is much better than 24 hour nights. 24 hour nights is very messy. It requires everyone who wants to make a deadline post to wait until literally 5 seconds before the deadline and make their post, if they want to be sure that nobody else will read it before the deadline. And it requires that the host is EXACTLY on time with the day post. In theory, it could work. But in practice, it is unlikely to happen.
I think 23+1 silent and the standard 23+1 action resolution are both good, and both have a slight flaw.
23+1 silent has the drawback that everyone with night actions has to be online an hour before the deadline, read all the deadline posts, and then decide if they want to change their night action.
23+1 action resolution has the drawback that night actions have to be submitted before deadline posts. This introduces a "randomizing" factor into NK decisions and other night action decisions. Not all the information is available to the people making the decisions. Mafia has to choose who to NK without knowing what final reads people will push etc.
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On March 31 2013 17:29 RyuSuzaku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 17:25 Ace wrote:
that should probably be the default night mechanic for the forum Night Action Resolution Period™ + Show Spoiler +
Me and GreYMisT came up with this in Aperture Mafia
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I always use the 1 hour resolution period when I host.
I think it adds an interesting dynamic to the game, but more importantly it just makes my job easier. In one of my first co-hosting gigs (with marv, I think?) people kept sending in night actions 2-3 minutes before the deadline, and I ended up having to completely rewrite my flavor like 2-3 times because of it.
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On April 01 2013 02:59 sciberbia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2013 14:41 ThePeashooter wrote:On March 31 2013 14:39 Keirathi wrote:On March 31 2013 14:37 Kenpachi wrote:
isnt town win condition to just eliminate all mafia Someone asked and DrH told them that town had to eliminate all non-town. Yeah I remembered reading that but couldn't find it anywhere. I sent a PM to DrH: Show nested quote +
Is it possible for this game to contain non-town entities that are not considered "threats to town" as specified by the town win condition? Or would that fall outside the realm of possibilities in a "Normal game"?
I was going to include this in my deadline post but that was the night DrH ended night 5 minutes early :/ spiel about recruiter role that you will probably find uninteresting + Show Spoiler +
I didn't follow a lot of the conversation about this third party recruiter role, but one thing that I really don't like about it is how the win condition of the mirror image works. The mirror image starts with either the town win condition or the mafia win condition. Then, in order for him to get converted, he must play against his original win condition. Once, he is converted, he essentially has two alternate win conditions, which makes mirror image quite an imba role. He essentially has two chances to win. I recommend that future hosts take things like this into consideration if you want to include a similar role in a future game.
long spiel on closed setups that you will probably find uninteresting + Show Spoiler +
On a side note, I don't like closed setups, "hidden" mechanics, or even to a lesser extent semi-open setups in general. Because it greatly benefits a player to be able to guess what kind of setups the host would be likely to make.
For example, VE made the poor decision to out the mirror and not accept the conversion because VE had no information on the setup. In reality, he would have done much better to accept. But how was VE supposed to know this? He just had to guess.
On the other hand, layabout made the good strategic decision to get converted. So did layabout "outplay" VE? Did layabout demonstrate that he is better at the game of mafia? In my opinion, no. He just correctly guessed that it would help him win if he accepted the conversion. "Closed" mechanics introduce a factor of "guess the setup" to mafia, which is otherwise very much a game of skill.
I like setups like C9++, like 4of6, or like that of Nomination Mafia, or Hydra Mini Mafia. Where everybody knows EXACTLY how the setup was created. And it is not a matter of "guess what the host did".
Speaking of which, if there's one thing I really hate about setups, its when hosts "balance" the teams. This is another case of "guess what the host is likely to do". Such as DrH giving GreyMist the nightmare role because GM requested it in his /in post. Anybody that knew DrH would be prone to do this is put at an advantage. And team balancing is unfair to newer players who do not know what teams the host would consider balanced. If hosts want to balance teams, then the only way to make it fair is to specify what teams would be considered balanced, and then redo the RNG until a "balanced" team is RNG'd. Something like "exactly 4 of VE, WF, kitaman, Palmar, marv, sandroba are town". But I would much prefer that teams are completely randomized. I think it would be fun to see Palmar, marv, bugs, and sandroba on a scumteam. It would make a nice change from the balancing that seems to me to be prevalent.
Also, I think that 23+1 is much better than 24 hour nights. 24 hour nights is very messy. It requires everyone who wants to make a deadline post to wait until literally 5 seconds before the deadline and make their post, if they want to be sure that nobody else will read it before the deadline. And it requires that the host is EXACTLY on time with the day post. In theory, it could work. But in practice, it is unlikely to happen. I think 23+1 silent and the standard 23+1 action resolution are both good, and both have a slight flaw. 23+1 silent has the drawback that everyone with night actions has to be online an hour before the deadline, read all the deadline posts, and then decide if they want to change their night action. 23+1 action resolution has the drawback that night actions have to be submitted before deadline posts. This introduces a "randomizing" factor into NK decisions and other night action decisions. Not all the information is available to the people making the decisions. Mafia has to choose who to NK without knowing what final reads people will push etc.
23+1 silent is no different than 24 from a player perspective. That's why GreY and I did that. Either the players have to be online at hour 23, or they have to be online at hour 24. What's the difference?
23+1 non-silent is terrible and should never be used, unless you were playing Last Will and Testament perhaps.
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I completely agree with RNG balancing by the way and am not sure why it is done any other way. If the scumteam just so happens to be OP, then so be it.
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EPT
