EPTThis Town Ain't Big Enough Mafia
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Sylencia
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Sylencia
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Sylencia
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On February 25 2013 05:17 cDgCorazon wrote: If you've ever seen any of my other games, you'll find that no one ever likes me... Because of your piss poor attitude when things don't go exactly the way you want it to. Anyways, I odn't see anything that's particularly out of the ordinary about the policy that Hapa is suggesting. I think even as a blue role it might be better to just put yourself out there and have a good defense. Reluctance makes you suspicious in town eyes, as well as suspicious on the mafia side. | ||
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On February 25 2013 07:48 cDgCorazon wrote: I just want to make a point about the general attitude that we should all go into this game with. Both Hapa and Sylencia responded to Marv's "suspicion on me". Sylencia's and Hapa's responses both have completely different mentalities when it comes to handling discussion: The big difference that I see between Hapa's response and Syl's response is that Hapa is trying to stimulate discussion and promote a good environment where we can all improve, whereas Syl is trying to rub salt in old wounds and is baiting me to argue with him on this. I'm not taking the bait Syl. Nice try. Why have people not trusted me in previous games? Because I have said stupid stuff and did little to look pro-town (if I was town). In all honesty I always find the opening parts of Mafia hard and my first post was pretty evident of that. At least you guys know that I am not lurking/have an actual heartbeat. I'm not trying to start an argument. I'm simply stating it as is. If I wanted to argue with you about it, I would've done it days ago in the NMM thread, but I didn't because I honestly don't care that much. The only thing which annoyed me is that it felt like you were trying to get sympathy from others because of how others think of you. | ||
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On February 25 2013 10:05 iamperfection wrote: this guy is the scummiest guy in the game so far in my view says he is excited he is town then proceeds to do nothing discuss. Not mafia != town, could be third party as far as we know. | ||
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On February 25 2013 10:11 Adam4167 wrote: How so? Why are you afraid to put your own life on the line, for someone who backs their reads as much as you usually do? Because this game doesn't revolve around just you and your reads. We're not going to have a read on a single person every duel phase, we're most likely going to have multiple people. If you put those people against each other, it works out a lot better for town because you see 2 players' defenses, and oust a potential scum. Putting yourself against the person you have a read against isn't likely to give that much option to the defender. Even if they are town, they are very likely doomed to die in that spot and it's a complete waste of a duel. | ||
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On February 26 2013 02:20 zarepath wrote: - stoke Cora's flames Cora's temper ruined the town environment for two mafia games in a row. Being aggressive towards him without reason is not pro-town. - speculate about a third party Setup speculation when we have zero flips is only speculation, and when the priority of town is to promote discussion of players and analyze reactions/interactions and get reads on individual players, speculating on setup is distracting and unproductive. It gives the appearance of contributing when it does not at all -- the goal of scum. - setup talk See above. - Leave People have lives and have to go do things. But he didn't say he was leaving, he was there for the beginning and bounced as discussion was becoming more substantial. I feel like you are just trying to poke at me to get me to talk more, not because you genuinely don't know the answers to your questions. It is pretty easy to see why I thought those actions were scummy, or how those actions in general can be scum-motivated. 1) You're probably right in that I shouldn't have been so aggressive/negative towards Cora so early on, and if I wanted to do so I could've done so elsewhere, I was just annoyed at the statement he had made at the time. 2) Point conceded there, though I was just pointing out the potential fault in the statement (maybe correcting the smallest of errors is the wrong thing to do) 3) Didn't realise I was expected to announce what I was doing and when I was leaving. If you want to know - had lunch, got swamped with work, got home and went straight to bed. If not announcing this is scummy play, I've been doing it wrong this entire time. Cora: People said the exact same thing in the game we just played (regarding the lurking) and it's exactly the reason why I find metareads to be so inconsistent. Players can easily mask their play to look like they're playing the same way they played as town and people would be none the wiser and yet people still compare it. It's like people are expecting a player to be locked into one style of play and are expecting it to stick for eternity. In any case, I don't see how this metaread is accurate at all. Compare the way I have played in most of the games I've played. The one game I was scum I was probably the most active out of all of them. As for reads, this is going to sound like a broken record to you by now, but tonight. If that's not good enough for you, I am perfectly willing to put myself up for the duel. -- Looks like in the middle of posting this, marv dies gg marv | ||
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On February 25 2013 10:29 Adam4167 wrote: My game revolves around me and my reads because its all I have to work with. Ill just have to make sure my reads are spot on then, to not 'completely waste duels', as you put it. Some people are confident. So you would assume that if he was to start a duel, there would actually be a case to start one right? On February 26 2013 16:25 Adam4167 wrote: I don't even know what the hell you're arguing anymore. Whatever it is, it isn't making me scum. Mess with the bull, you get the horns. ##Duel: Keirathi On February 26 2013 16:51 Adam4167 wrote: Because I felt like it. I came here to duel, not vote and then duel when everyone agrees like a watered down version of a normal mafia game. ... The sad thing is that I don't see Adam being scum, but just a detriment to town. Regarding Keir, I feel like he's pretty much on the same area as I am, not much from him but the fact he's argued with Adam meant that he's been put up for a duel. I'm still null on Keir, but if this is the way Adam wants to play I don't think it's exactly going to help us out in the long run. ##Vote: Adam | ||
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1) Letting Adam have his way and dueling/shooting people when he pleases is not in the interests of town. Given he's shown he only cares about his own reads, the chance of him hitting scum with his reads is less than 50% unless he's had a track record of being some superb reader. From what I've read, not really. 2) He mentioned dueling Keir before, but his filter shows he thought Deino was scummy. His feelings towards killing Deino clearly show a lot more intent to kill him than to Keir, and yet here we are suddenly deciding Keir than Deino. "I better make sure my reads are spot on then" he says, yet he doesn't wait for Deino to make a statement which may or may not have pushed him to duel Deino instead and just rashly chooses to go at it now. His actions have contradicted what he said he would do, and I'm surprised that people are voting for Keir here. | ||
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On February 26 2013 18:58 Oatsmaster wrote: You dont even care about whether adam or Keir is scum, and you show no intent of trying to find out. Did you not read the reason why Adam voted Keir? Or you read it and thought it was bullshit, what is bullshit about it? I've read the 'case' on why Adam voted Keir, but all it literally says is 'what you're saying doesn't make me scum, thus you must be scum'. It's nowhere near solid and comes completely out of nowhere. On February 26 2013 16:25 Adam4167 wrote: I don't even know what the hell you're arguing anymore. Whatever it is, it isn't making me scum. His duel against Keir basically ends up feeling like OMGUS, especially with the addition of the last sentence. The other thing which disturbs me when rereading the filter again is the amount of times he feels he needs to either point out he's town or to mention things which would make you scum/town - then following the majority of the points he makes to try reinforce his position. On February 25 2013 11:39 Adam4167 wrote: Dropping weak scum reads will still draw attention to you, something scum try to avoid generally. They also have to be backed up with some form of sense or logic or they are seen for exactly what they are, garbage. Case against Dieno: weak. Thus, must be less scummy right? On February 25 2013 13:28 Adam4167 wrote: Mafia that sit in the spotlight almost always fry, and as a general rule, try to avoid it. The likelyhood of either of us being scum is not good as a result. He was sitting in the spotlight for the majority of the duel phase, and he said it outright that the chance of him being scum is therefore lowered. On February 26 2013 14:30 Adam4167 wrote: Now that my internet is recovered: I fully support this duel between Thrawn and Keirathi. Thrawn is taking ownership of his reads, something I mentioned yesterday, I respect that. That case against me was god awful, stinks of nothing-scum-case. It does nothing to illustrate why i'm scum, only that I was using logic that shows I think i'm town and everyone else should think it too. Tells people to think he's town. [QUOTE]On February 26 2013 14:57 Adam4167 wrote: [QUOTE]On February 26 2013 14:49 Keirathi wrote: I would be fine dueling thrawn. [QUOTE]On February 26 2013 14:30 Adam4167 wrote: My goal was to a) illustrate that I thought Yamato was town for going against the grain, as I was, and b) to stop people (corazon mainly) wasting time on focusing on someone I feel is clearly not scum. I feel like it did a good job of accomplishing those objectives.[/QUOTE] Appeals to his case on being more townie by making a comparison of play between himself and Yamato. Since he says that Yamato isn't scummy for going against the grain, he shouldn't be considered it either. Yet another 'I'm town' statement. [QUOTE]On February 26 2013 15:04 Adam4167 wrote: [QUOTE]On February 26 2013 14:51 thrawn2112 wrote: [QUOTE]On February 26 2013 14:31 Adam4167 wrote: [QUOTE]On February 26 2013 14:27 thrawn2112 wrote: it doesn't have to be thrawn vs kei. in fact I prefer it to be kei vs someone else however i'm willing to do it[/QUOTE] If you will not, I will. My 'bravado', ask Keirathi put it, was not an act.[/QUOTE] I'm getting the feeling that you have a town read on me.. is your scum read that strong on kei that you're willing to put both of us up for lynch? How's your read on deino going?[/QUOTE] I have you leaning town, yes, in virtue of your defending me against what I consider a sub-par case. I think his play this game is lacking the curiosity and conviction i see in most townies, with most of his posts being general statements as opposed to pursuing someone to discern their alignment. He does not seem to be looking for scum. My read on Deino remains unchanged leaning frustrated. Hes come back, posts more nothing, then slinks off again. I was willing to give him some time, as we had plenty, but my patience is evaporating. He never explained his 'Marv-Snarfs' connection that doesn't even exist, nor answer my question on Oats. [/QUOTE] 1) Leaning towards someone else being town based on a single defense is ridiculous. When I read this I interpret it as "Since I'm town, you are town since you defended me, and since I'm saying it you know I'm town now". Am I looking at it too deeply? 2) I should've mentioned this above but I missed it before - this statement isn't false but the scummiest part about Keir there is that he wasn't scum hunting. If that was his case, his duel would've been much better suited who completely fit his point and more (like me, but for some reason he never really commented about my lack of activity at the time) 3) And again, I'm back to his original point about getting scum reads 100%. He rushes in on a case built on nothing much but frustration instead of building a stronger case on someone he had a slight scum read on. [QUOTE]On February 26 2013 15:20 Adam4167 wrote: This point isnt going anywhere because there is no point to begin with. Even if I were stepping forward to 'duel on towns behalf after yamato died or otherwise', how does that show only scum motivation? It could just as easily be coming from a townie wanting to fight. Bad case.[/QUOTE] Very soft statement about his town side again, but this one is pushing it as a case because it's pretty natural to explain it in this manner. In any case in a span of 5 hours he's felt the need to point out he's town or he's townie based on perceived town activity about 6 times. I understand it when people make defenses and use it once maybe twice in it appealing to the fact they are town because of X reason, but when you feel you need to reinforce it once an hour, it's not right. | ||
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On February 27 2013 05:55 Acrofales wrote: Where did Sylencia disappear to... again? To sleep? I went off at 12am... I don't really understand why there's such a need to announce everything you're doing. In any case, if you're asking that were you going to follow up with a question? It's not like I'm incapable of reading a question you post in advance... | ||
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On February 26 2013 18:39 Oatsmaster wrote: Lynch sylencia tmr, he doesnt care whether keir or adam is scum, wants to lynch useless townie. On February 27 2013 13:41 Oatsmaster wrote: Im fine with killing both at this point, Adam wants to pick a fight WITH EVERYBODY and cause chaos. Keirathi has been doing absolutly NOTHING. And I want to kill him for being a bad townie. Yes I dont think he will flip scum, but come on, this kind of play absolutely kills town. OK. I'm only making this quick post now because I caught onto it while stuff's compiling. Thrawn: I'll answer your question when I get home since that requires some more depth. Corazon: Cool story. | ||
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On February 27 2013 13:58 Oatsmaster wrote: Did you want to draw a conclusion? Or something else? You try to nail me last night for what you're doing at the moment, but worse because you're statement essentially says you're killing off what you believe to probably be 2 townies. If you believe Keir is town, you have no reason to try kill him. Even if he's bad town, he still gives us the numbers we need to stay further afloat vs scum. | ||
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On February 27 2013 14:02 cDgCorazon wrote: Are you fucking kidding me Syl. Just because I'm not 100% proclaimed townie by everyone else does not mean you have the power to dodge my arguments. Your arguments are fairly self explanatory. What do you need clarification on, or have I missed one of your posts? | ||
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On February 27 2013 14:15 cDgCorazon wrote: Why have you not stepped up your game? Do you realize that in the last 2 games as town you have played really terribly? You've exhibited the same qualities that you did in NMM 33 and NMM 37 as town (lurkiness, lack of scum reads, being a distraction to town with your inactivity). The one time you were scum you played the same type of game and coasted to victory by having the town fight each other and kill each other off while he sat there and laughed in the scum QT. Town Syl would see the flaws in his town game and try to improve on them. Scum Syl would see how well this strategy works as scum (especially in a super active game where the town were at each other's throats from the get-go) and continue to play the same type of game. Your behavior makes you look slightly scummy. The fact that you still have not changed your meta makes you look REALLY scummy. Questions I would like you to answer: Why are you lurking? Why have you refused to give any scum reads or suspicions (your vote for Adam did not count because you basically went on the fence)? Why have you not tried to improve on your play, especially after your role in town's defeat in NMM 37? Why am I lurking? Not intentional, but my prime online time for checking this is during the slowest period of the day. I have that 4 hour period where I can post, and I have been but other than that I can only really read and answer short questions / make quick and simple observations as I see it from the latest posts. Completely disagree with your statement about how I sit on the fence on the vote for Adam? Considering it's been reinforced over time. Your perception on what is improvement is different to others. Don't ask stupid questions which are completely off-topic just so that you can get some sort of emotional relief. Your entire read on me these past 2 games have been so so focused on my past meta that it's truly blinding you Corazon. You've mentioned the way I played when I was scum last game, and you're mentioning it again now. Are you going to keep mentioning that until you hit it right and you can say "Hey, told you guys I read him like a book based on his meta!" It clearly hasn't worked out, and it's not going to work out now if you keep it up either. On February 27 2013 15:37 yamato77 wrote: I lost a game as town because of his propensity to lurk and be useless. You lost that game because you literally ragequit. But that's the past anyways.. On February 27 2013 15:38 Oatsmaster wrote: I dont like how Syl basically said that his behaviour was the same as Keir's in the game and therefore, that made Keir scummy. The difference between my post and his post is in the timing, he posted his response like 5-6 hours after the duel started, with barely any input by the duelers. My post is almost 24 hours after, Adam doesnt look like he is apologetic, or wants to do anything useful for town at all, even though he acknowledged earlier that it was a bad move. Keir simply doesnt seem to care. There is no conviction behind his posts and again, he is one of the lowest contributers to this thread, even though he is getting lynched. I dont think that Keirathi is gonna flip scum, but on the slight chance that he is trying not to draw flack for his play, I am in favour of lynching him. How does it take you 24 extra hours to realise that Adam is doing what he wants when he wants? That was already stated from the start of the game, and continues on until now. Keir doesn't care, Keir is a low contributor. I mentioned that as well. Posting what I said when I did just shows that the characteristics of the two players were very apparent already, but somehow you needed more time to see it. I assume I'm meant to ignore that top part as you say, because I never said that :\ On February 26 2013 19:00 thrawn2112 wrote: syl why isn't keir scummy to you? what's so surprising about people wanting to lynch him? [/QUOTE] On February 26 2013 11:18 Keirathi wrote: I honestly haven't put a whole lot of effort into the game at this point because I've just been busy. I'm not going to force reads I don't believe in though, nor am I going to apologize for that. You act like this is something new, though. In fact, iirc, this isn't even the first time you've made that statement about me on day 1 ("OMG you must be scum if you aren't sure about reads 24 hours into the game!"). Sorry, I'll work at my own pace and have reads when I have them. This is something I don't expect to see scum doing in day 1. Scum can obviously abuse this by saying it to prevent themselves from having to backtrack later on, but we're not playing NMM with complete first timers. I would expect there to be some sort of communication between scum to the point where they would at least make sure they aren't introducing things they can't take back later. In addition, this statement only brings attention and significance to his future reads. This means when he makes his posts, they would have to be fairly flawless as scum or at least very defendable to stop too much suspicion being thrown on him. His not sharing town reads isn't indicative of much, town reads don't show very much because it's the easiest for scum to manipulate, and I think should only really be shared if it's a strong read. Posts containing weak town reads are filler posts designed to look like you're contributing when you don't really have any idea what's going on, and even though they can be useful I personally dislike them. His last post before he gets duelled is what makes me consider him at least 'less scummy'. His attack on Adam looks more or less like standard pressure play, his points made are completely valid, and you have to wonder: if you were scum - would you really be pressuring a loose cannon? Either yes, but they don't expect it to backfire, or no, they genuinely think he's acting suspiciously and he's getting answers. In my eyes, having scum attack Adam over someone else who's more suspicious seems too high-risk to be worth it, especially on Day 1. | ||
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On February 27 2013 20:16 Acrofales wrote: I'm awake and first things first. Lets ask this again: Syl, if you think Adam and Keir are both town, who do you think is scum? At the moment, Oats to me is suspicious. He hasn't posted an original case of his own, he's mainly been using others to answer questions for him so far, and in addition being one of the major promoters of the double lynch despite seeing neither having a high chance of being scum. I have another weaker read but I'd rather wait and see what they do after tonight and see if anything transpires from it or if I'm completely wrong. On February 27 2013 20:19 Oatsmaster wrote: But keirathi hasnt done ANYTHING. I wanted to see how keirathi and Adam played the night after, apparently you didnt need to. Being dueled in a situation like this, is kinda like getting red checked when you are town. You know you are town and you would fight to not get lynched right? Apparently keirathi doesnt really care. Adam is not a loose cannon, look at Acro's previous posts. He is calm and collected in most of his games. This game however, is different. Is that difference scummy? Or not. He hasn't done anything productive, but he has posted in a way that doesn't seem likely to sound scummy. I'm not saying Adam is a loose cannon in general, but in the way he's approaching this game where he's willing to fire shots whenever without warning - I consider that a loose cannon. People can choose to play the same or differently to how they normally do. That doesn't necessarily prove anything though. If you're forced to play one type of game just because all your town games have been played that way, you'd get bored. You'd want to mix it up, whether you were scum or not. It helps you have more fun and it helps you in the future when you are scum. (tl;dr I hate metareads, they have their uses, but everyone is overusing them this game I feel) | ||
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Basically this - Looks like I was wrong about Keir, and Adam somehow nailed it :| While I'm willing to go up for a duel because of my lurker status, my lack of critical scumhunting, and whatnot - I'll let Deino cast the duel. He can show he has the same commitment that I do to being on the block. If I was to cast the vote, I'd much rather duel Corazon than Deino. Not only is it frustrating for me to have to deal with Corazon calling me scum time and time again based on my meta from previous games, he already mentioned it himself: On February 26 2013 00:13 cDgCorazon wrote: It's hard to follow because you guys just sit around and call each other scum/town based on each other's metas, which in all honesty is kind of pointless. Metas can change at any point, and players can use their meta from one side or another to conscientiously give others a town read based on their meta. Don't read too much into them (which I'm afraid you guys are doing right now). I'm not saying that all of it has been meta talk, but I've seen way too much meta talk thrown around. Yet he proceeds to push the case during the day many many times, even making a complete case on how I am scummy because of my past meta. Cora, why the hell are you putting all your effort into looking into the past when you've clearly mentioned the above, and I have as well somewhere along the line? Anyways to answer some of your questions (though On February 28 2013 00:14 cDgCorazon wrote: @Syl: Here is a list of reasons I think that you are scum that have nothing to do with your meta. Care to answer to a few of these? The fact that you are in Australia should not have a huge impact on your ability to contribute. I've been able to have constant back and forth with Mocsta (also from Australia) in every game I've played with him. The timezones should not be an issue here. Even if you have limited time to play, you could have at least shown that you are having an interest in this scum hunt and that you should not be forced to give a read (one that's basically copying me) when one asks. You should take the initiative to look pro-town. When it comes to posts: High Quality and High Quantity= Generally Town High Quality but Low Quantity= Generally Town Low Quality but High Quantity= Scum Low Quality and Low Quantity= Scum If you are truly having a lack of time to discuss every single point, you needed to be more practice. The bolded one is what you could be doing with your limited time and what would help town. The underlined one is what you are doing, which is not helping town. Sure, but I have no idea what Mocsta does during the day - seeing as he was completely capable of posting when he wanted he may have been on holidays, or worked part-time or something. My schedule: Sleep at 1, wake at 7, get to work at 9 - generally I check the topic and post at around this time. I check the topic again before lunch at 1230, and I get home at 7. I eat dinner, freshen up, do what I need to do and it's about 10. I am on from then until I sleep again, in which I check the topic every 10-15 minutes. The times in which I'm most active have been when there's only been a handful of people online - primarily Oatsmaster and other SEA players and at a stretch some of the euros. For people on the other side of the world, such as you, I end up only posting 1-3 times to you a day because of the delay in reply between you and I. Do you get it now? ("Important times of the day" is also very dependent on when it happens. The lynch happened around 5am today. Am I scum for sleeping? The duel on D1 began at 4pm I believe. Am I scum for being at work during that time? If it's at a time when I AM supposed to be here - say 11pm my time, I would say you had a point, but so far afaik that hasn't been the case) On your second point, that's completely valid. Though I seem to disagree that I haven't been scumhunting. The primary thing for Day 1 was based on the duel. I don't know if you've actually read my filter or not but the second half of that day was pretty much myself trying to show why I saw Adam's play as scummy. Sure I was wrong, but it's still something. In addition, you can obviously still work on others but why would you want to make them aware that they're suspicious when they can be nailed through their actions that can then be shown after the duel? I'm not saying I have any hidden reads here - I don't, but this is probably one of the flaw's I've seen people have been doing during the day (myself included, it really only occured to me today). If you're finding these scummy plays, you can bring them up as soon as they say it, but you could let them hang themselves further by letting them dig themselves into a hole by letting them think they got away with it. If it's appropriate to bring the point up for an argument against a player who's currently up for nomination, then obviously bring it up. If it's a vital statement that can change the outcome of the day, bring it up. But for minor things, such as the time I mentioned Oats trying to slam me for what I was doing then doing something similar - that has it's time during the night / preduel. That's what is one of the major differences between this game and a normal game, but everyone is treating this like a normal game and it's really giving scum a lot more opportunities to cover up past errors (especially with voting). If I die during the duel, at least take that away from it. On February 28 2013 15:31 Hapahauli wrote: People Who Voted Adam (Sylencia +Dienosaur) Idealistic, but you would think that the 4th scum (if any) would at least have the brains to stop this from happening if this was true. Even I would've seen from a mile away that leaving my vote on Adam would've been a dumb move if I was going to sleep with chances to hammer at any time (mainly saying this about the second half of the day, I would probably still vote at the time I did) leaving my vote exposed as scum. Deino who seems to have been in a similar situation following suit would mean that both of us being scum were very confident that town would vote for double lynch / Adam. Adam getting killed was still far off, and with the votes being 3-4 or something before the real movement happened, it's not like scum could convincingly say that it was in the bag at all. So if I was scum, it would've been very very easy for me to simply withdraw my vote under the "Oh keir has done nothing for this half of the day, I'll re-evaluate." context. But I didn't. I stood my ground, and gave more reasoning. tl;dr You are at least half wrong about this, so assuming there are 4 scum, you're still missing one. | ||
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While it's still considered scumhunting, I don't see it to be very productive at all seeing as how he has had his tunnel vision glasses on since stopping with yam and Oats. | ||
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On February 28 2013 03:49 Alderan wrote: Sylencia similar question for you. Do you agree a double lynch would be a bad idea? You never mention it in your filter, but you do seem to think that Adam's actions don't necessarily make him scum, just a bad town player. Since the nomination do you think Adam is more dangerous to town than Keir? If so, why? Also I missed this during the skim through this morning but I'm trying to find a final list of votes, and I don't even know if it's relevant now but I indirectly mentioned it in one of my posts I believe. It was a stupid idea simply because there wasn't enough info from them and there is nothing based on previous actions that you can link them to. For example, now there IS a reason to double lynch myself and Deino, since it can be linked to the death of Keir, as well as similar play during day 1. This is where double lynch makes more sense (though I don't advocate it )At the time you posted, I still thought so yes because Adam clearly stated he wouldn't guarantee he back down from a duel based on his reads in a future day, and Keir still had a chance to better his play since I didn't see too many scummy posts from him, only scummy traits were really there (and turns out that was correct). On that note, is there a final vote count hanging around somewhere? | ||
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On February 28 2013 23:52 Oatsmaster wrote: Wall of text :D So is Cora your only scum read? Sorry, didn't see the post sandwiched between mine. I did have a suspicion on zare reading his filter but after I found the final vote count I might still have to mull it over tonight to make sense of his post-lynch posts. I called you out last night for what I thought was being hypocritical, and I haven't perused your filter since then so that's still up in the air too but I'm honestly falling asleep at my desk at the moment. | ||
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On March 01 2013 00:48 Alderan wrote: @Syl, so under no circumstance would you initiate a duel with Dieno? I would much prefer it with Corazon, but I'm not going to put a random duel out there if everyone doesn't agree on it. If Deino remained missing without an explanation until now I would've considered him a lot more but he's here now, and my wanting to duel him has increased since he's made this gem of a statement: On March 01 2013 02:29 Dienosore wrote: As for me dueling Syl, I would totally be OK with that. He has looked scummy to me for a while now. No explanation, this is the first time he's ever mentioned me in a post, and he gives no reinforcement to his claim. At least everyone else has done something to show that I am potentially scummy but Dieno just sheeps onto that thought and is now riding it. | ||
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On March 01 2013 07:34 Hapahauli wrote: @ Syl "My vote was too scummy for me to be scum" isn't a very good defense. What's very suspicious about your vote (and Dieno's) is how early you were on Adam, and how "clean" your play has been so far. You haven't done anything to stick your neck out - you just stick to one straight story and "blend in" while pursuing mafia objectives (lynching Adam). Sure isn't a good defense, but do explain how you can say with that I'm pursuing mafia objectives by trying to lynch someone we don't know the alignment of because they haven't flipped? I haven't made excuses for voting Adam, trying to make myself look any better because of a scum flip, because that would just be me lying to you all. I haven't had any regrets having my vote on Adam because he seemed like the worse player at the time, even though that's shown to be wrong. | ||
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Sylencia
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On March 01 2013 09:07 Dienosore wrote: This town obviously isn't big enough for both of us, Sylencia. ##Duel: Sylencia That is one of the worst reasons I have seen anyone give for anything ever. Me warming up to the idea suggests I was still hours off wanting to duel you over Corazon with valid reason to switch, and yet you decide to pull the trigger prematurely for what? Considering at this point in time you hadn't made a case against me whatsoever other than your 'seems suspicious' vague argument. On March 01 2013 10:18 Dienosore wrote: Case on Sylencia Here we start with this awesome post: Speaking of bad first posts, he openly suggests blues come forward at the start of the game. Then he says reluctance to reveal yourself should be met with suspicion. Why would a towny ever want to expose blues, especially so early? I can understand if it is later in the game and there are lots of zany roles to protect people with, but this set-up so far seems to be pretty straight forward and simple. Here he promises reads then doesn't deliver Then there is his vote on Adam: Here he says Adam isn't scum, then he actually has the balls to vote to kill him anyway. He also manages to weakly align himself with Keir (who flipped scum, btw). But wait... what's this?: Now it's not ok to kill a towny, even if he's bad? This whole post goes directly against his vote on adam. Why you so flip-floppy, Syl? He finally makes some real reads once Adam is dead, maybe because he is being pressured for looking scummy. Whatever, standard play. What is interesting is this little blip: He admits to having scum traits? Why would a towny ever say something like that? And the whole message is pretty much, "I want to duel Corazon because he is tunneling me". Maybe I'm wrong about this, but shouldn't you want to duel because you think someone is scum, not because they hurt your feelings? There are a few other smaller things that add up after a while, but I think I've got the main points up there. 1. I'm making extreme cases, nowhere does it say 'hey blues - come out day 1 because then you can freely duel!' If you read that point at all it was in regards to policy Hapa was suggesting. That way we don't have trigger happy players deciding to duel at a random point in time only for their opponent to say 'Dude, I was X role and Y was scum'. You get 1 scum at the cost of 1 blue and 1 townie, best trade ever. 2. I weakly suggest that I think both are town and Adam was the better choice because of his unpredictability. Nothing in Keir's filter screamed outright scum so naturally he was a null read but there were bits of potential town play in there hence why he was leaning slightly towards town. 3. You take posts out of context here regarding the post going against Oats at that point. 4. What, you're expecting me to say 'nono, Corazon is wrong, my play is completely town - look at the style in which I lurked because I wasn't around it screams town!' ... With the desire to duel Cora, did you not understand the point I was making against him or do you not understand how I was accusing him of being scummy there? Your case against me is extremely weak Deino. On March 01 2013 10:49 Dienosore wrote: I was suspicious ever since his first post asking blues to come out. He wasn't in my top scumreads until I saw how he kind of fumbled around after the first duel. Now after digging into his filter and actually writing down my case, I'm pretty convinced. And you conveniently never mentioned anything about having a read on me beforehand? Decided not to call me out when you say you saw my original post? You've only become completely suspicious of me after dueling me and then reading my filter? So that means you hadn't actually made a case against me before deciding to just jump into a duel. I don't about you, but I like to have facts laid out before full on accusing the opponent of being scum and trying to kill them at that spot. But you've got it the wrong way around, which means you were really only dueling me at that time because it's better that you're vsing someone who is about as suspicious as you as opposed to someone like Acrofales who you know you'd lose a duel against him? There was a lot of talk about that in the hours leading up the duel, and it honestly looks like you cracked under the pressure of having to duel a stronger townie than yourself. On February 27 2013 15:03 cDgCorazon wrote: If you guys sit here and lynch Dieno off, you get very little about my alignment (only the fact that I'm not voting for Dieno), and we would sit here and ask questions about me and Syl for another day and basically waste a Day (unless of course Dieno comes back as scum). If you guys lynch Sylencia, you guys get his flip and get information about both his and my alignment from the flip. It seems like a no-brainer to me. And you get no information about Deino, who at this point is looking about 10x the scum you are looking at the moment. If you were truly wanting to get the most information you wouldn't have even suggested doing a single lynch, but doing the double lynch because otherwise it still takes 2-3 days to fully get all the information out there. Yet somehow you're trying to defend Deino from dying for some reason by proposing the single lynch on myself. On March 01 2013 12:33 Dienosore wrote: @hapa(/thrawn): I read thrawns post and addressed his points. Here ya go: My main motivation was the fact that he wanted to duel me. I was a little offended that he would jump at me so early in the game, so naturally I snapped back at him. Then some time passed and some stuff happened. Marv vouched for Adam, etc. I stayed suspicious up until the flip, and now I'm pretty sure Adam is not a scumdog. I just don't see mafia dueling each other day 1. Unless of course it was all a genius plan to do the unthinkable and get town cred... but probably not. It wasn't obvious to me at all. Up until Keir flipped, I never really felt strongly that he was mafia. Maybe some of you other guys have more experience with Keir to have been able to make a meta read based on his lazy play, but I didn't. Lesson learned, though.. 1. Why would your main purpose behind a duel be because of OMGUS? That's not how duels go, you duel when you find something particularly scummy and then you can say you want a duel. Your duel on day 2 goes to show that you're not truly interested if they're scum or not seeing as how you make the most generic comments before trying to confirm their alignment. 2. You say that you didn't find Keir to be that scummy until he flipped and it's ok. I say that I didn't find Keir that scummy and you're using it as a case against me. Double standards? Ok. On March 01 2013 18:08 Dienosore wrote: Idleness and sketchy plays the entire game slowly build up to scumball status. Here's one for you: Idleness and sketchy duel and arguments quickly build up to scumball status. On March 01 2013 20:28 Dienosore wrote: Gotta be joking me. I wait for everyone to slip up so I can better hunt catch and kill mafia, especially early on in the game when everyone is still suspect. Do you not do similar gut checks about your reads, also? Normally I would agree with you, but in my mind, marv did more than just some simple setup discussion. He told us in easy abc 1-2-3 steps how to win the game. How do you expect 1) for everyone to slip up - there's only a small number of scum. 2) to know who the scum are if you're never aiming to kill one first and then you can get reads on the rest of your suspects and hope they can slip then? That'd sure be an idealistic world if you're going to say "Well, if W, X, Y and Z are the only ones I see slip - that must mean they're scum'. Some of you are asking for my top scum reads. Cora I've already written about, but I finally get to filter dive Oats to see if he's still as scummy as I saw him during mid D1, and then onto a few others. | ||
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- His filter shows little effort from him in finding out the scum, but instead he relies a lot on everyone else by asking them questions repeatedly. - He had made the single move which was essentially what I did but 24 hours later. He gave his reasoning for it, but at the time I didn't really like it. On February 28 2013 20:06 Oatsmaster wrote: His 'oats is scum' read on me is basically a summary of my filter, and it doesnt look like he really wants to find out who is scum. Not saying this question is scummy, I just want clarification - but if your general filter literally contains just questions the majority of the time, is that not a valid point to raise as being potentially scum? There's content in short bursts with regards to reads and whatnot from then on until the duel begins, I don't find anything too out of the ordinary overall, the only thing I really would comment about it is just being able to get away with not revealing too much about his thoughts on the game until Day 2. While I was hoping to find more, I'm finding myself having to back down from Oats for now. In fact the more I read, the less sure I am. It's seriously hard for me to pin down anyone for doing anything because there's always something that goes back against the post. The only other person I'm worried about is zare because he has flown under the radar this entire game - he's provided his thoughts a few times, but his latest reads don't give any explanation behind them, it's just an echo of what everyone else has suspected. There are a few association cases I would make too, but I would prefer not to have to rely on them because it's complete speculation unless their associated one flips. | ||
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On March 01 2013 21:31 Acrofales wrote: I very much disagree. Look at NMM 34, where he was scum. He was making cases. Not pushing them, but can you honestly say he was pushing anything in NMM 37? To me, his town and his scumplay look exactly the same: a lurker who drops by once a day to make a case and then buggers off again. The only difference in the two seems to be that as scum he is slightly more active. However, with a sample size of 1,there's no guarantee that that is the case, it might just have been the game, or its timing. Difference was the timing - I was on Christmas break during the time I was scum, and I'm currently working full time. | ||
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On March 02 2013 13:24 cDgCorazon wrote: I'm still sad that we did not double lynch. I really think we should've ended the Syl saga right there and then. There is nothing in his filter that says town to me. Refuting a weak argument is not a town action. This all just screams of a purposely weak bus in order to give Syl some free town cred and give him a blank slate. I think Thrawn has the right idea in still putting the pressure on Syl. However, Dieno has bought you some time Syl. Here is your chance to prove that you deserve the town cred Dieno has given you. Come up with some strong reads and perhaps my read on you can change. The ball is in your court in deciding whether we want to get past this or if you're going to distract us and drag us down again. On March 02 2013 13:32 cDgCorazon wrote: Because we chose the Syl/Dieno lynch even before Kei's flip. It's quite possible that they had to choose one to take the fall and try to keep the other one alive. Syl would be the better choice to bus Dieno than the other way around because I was the main one attacking Syl and my standing within the town has been shaky. If Syl is scummy too why in the world did you not lynch them both? You guys are sitting here talking about how scummy Syl is when we just had his lynch on a silver platter and you guys said no. It's almost like you are all teasing me now... Either say Syl is scum and lynch him or tell me he's town. Not wanting to lynch your scum reads is scummy in itself. Honestly, if anything it is you who has been distracting town time and time again by bringing up useless posts about me. You haven't done anything to town other than your ramblings day in and day out about how scummy I am - you're completely ignoring the rest of town in order to try push a lynch on me and the only time I've seen in the filter beyond this point you mentioning anything about anyone else is when they ask you about Yamato vs Acro.\ You asked this question to me in NMM37, so how about I ask you the same question: Who are your scum reads and why - excluding myself. Assuming there are 2 left, there should be at least 2 other people who are scummy, right? If you're going to argue about how I'm definitely scum and therefore shouldn't have to have 2 other reads - don't complain when I made a case on Sevryn (and was still looking at Warbaby) and you voted for me anyways. On March 02 2013 14:27 cDgCorazon wrote: God I'm sick of Seriously. This quote covers you perfectly, and your future quote about if I flip town it shows 'you won't stand for crappy town play' yet you've ignored every other lurker / low contributor such as Snarfs is hilarious. As for the developments that happened overnight - is there a reason not to at least trust what thrawn said to do last night? As much as Cora would love for me to be dueling today, and I for him to have him dueling - is it not time for at least 2 others to be dueling to get more information there too? If we have the same people dueling day after day, we're limiting the information that we can get during the day and thus when it comes to late game and the limited number of people who have duel are all dead you're left with nothing to go off. | ||
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On March 04 2013 23:52 cDgCorazon wrote: Alright, well I've come to my decision. It was a tough one, so I decided to take a look at all of the veteran TLers who have flipped VT this game and see their thoughts: And the survey says... ##Vote: Hapa Also I cannot see any possible ways that Hapa's actions could be town-oriented. I could see Yamato's play being town a lot easier (still hard though) than Hapa's play. I don't have much to add to today's duel - the only point I can really add is that while you're using other opinions to decide your vote, can you really value marv's judgment as equal as others? He says it in his post himself - 'could be a bad start', seeing as how he was in the game for 24 hours where some people hadn't talked yet. Personally, I find Hapa's defense posts in day 3, his read on yamato during day 2 and yamato's duel-while-everyone-is-afk to really add up to a compelling argument for me to vote yam. On the other hand, considering day 1 and day 2 have resulted in a mafia lynching I don't see why yamato is actually just openly claiming that a lynch on him is ok to get more info. After reading the case on Hapa, I also find it to be rather weak - primarily the day 2 case on Hapa. The only compelling thing for me is the disappearance of Hapa during the later stages of that duel but I think the quotes provided don't make for a strong scum case against him. I'm going to be sleeping on this, but I don't honestly expect to be coming up with many miracle answers to this problem and in advance I'm going to apologize (primarily to Cora here) for being such a useless townie. On a side note, if we want to maximize our chances of winning, one of the next duels should result in a double lynch. (Town chooses kill today, Night Kill, Town, Town, Night, Town, Night, Town, Town) gives us 6 kills to choose from and 3 controlled by scum. This is different to Town, Night, Town, Night, Town, Night, Town, Town where we get 5 kills and they still get 3. tl;dr sometime during this duel or the next 2 duels, we have an extra spare lynch. This is assuming no vig/protection/thingswhichstop1NK. | ||
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On March 05 2013 00:29 cDgCorazon wrote: It's never too late to redeem yourself Syl. Who do you think is the last (hypothetical) scum assuming that Yamato and Hapa aren't bussing each other? Zare has a high chance at the moment no matter who gets chosen, but after thinking through it during the night it's quite possible that Yamato and Hapa are both town, which means there could still be another scum. If that's the case, the other thing I'm a bit suspicious about are how clear pro-town players who are providing a lot of insight in comparison to others didn't get killed instead of the ones who are dead. While thrawn was also an active player, his reads were definitely a lot more off in comparison to Acro/Adam. | ||
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On March 05 2013 16:58 yamato77 wrote: I have been thinking about this very problem and I have come up with a list of people we force into duels after this to find the remaining mafia, because everyone else is PROBABLY town at this point. Right now we are at 8 - 2 town to mafia, assuming no third parties and 4 starting mafia. Assuming we NEVER double lynch, and mafia's shot always goes through (as it has been), this is how the game plays out. Hapa flips town 6 - 2 tomorrow. Hapa flips mafia 7 -1 tomorrow. Zare - Alderan should be the duel tomorrow, no questions asked, either way Hapa flips. Hopefully one of them proves to be town, if Hapa is mafia. If he's town, both of them have a good shot at being mafia together, honestly. Regardless, best case scenario is the game is over, all mafia dead. Worst case scenario is 4 - 2 mylo after this, with 5 -1 being the MOST LIKELY scenario, as having zero mafia out of the group of Hapa/Zare/Alderan seems highly unlikely. Cora - Acro should be after that. If it's MYLO, or there's new analysis from a mafia flip, this might change, but it is how I would play it out today. If two of those three flip town and the other looks really town, it means a player we've been ignoring for a while is likely mafia, so my bet is one of these two, seeing as neither would have been involved in any duels at this point and been under serious pressure. If we're at 5 - 1, the worst case scenario is 3 -1 the following day, and this duel likely gives us a serious look into the alignment of both of these players. At that point, it would highly depend on who is still alive, and who is not. Hard to call. You and I SHOULD be dead by then. Most likely 3 -1 MYLO is Snarfs/Sylencia/Oats/Cora, IMO, but you never know.At any rate, 3 - 1 MYLO should be a no lynch, easy to enforce by policy lynching anyone who calls for a duel, as it only helps mafia and hurts town. 2 - 1 LYLO is a coinflip, but by then town should have enough info to pick out who is most likely mafia. 4 - 2 MYLO could also be a no lynch, but I feel like 3 - 2 LYLO is easier to lose, and 4 - 2 MYLO is easier to hit mafia than the 3 - 1 / 2 - 1 counterparts, so I would take my chances with Cora/Acro. Oats/Snarfs both highly green to me, so that is how I made this assumption. Sylencia/You also unlikely to be mafia, but it's a LYLO possibility that one of you might be mafia and used the duel mechanic to clear your name. I already outlined a plan that gives us the highest chance of winning this, assuming we don't mess up at 4-2. At 4-2, a double lynch killing 1 mafia leaves us at 2-1. At 2-1, scum can't call a duel anymore so it becomes a lot easier on us to win the game by having the last person double lynch the two. 66%+ chance of winning the game there. 4-2 situation also doesn't allow for No lynches, because no lynch = double lynch anyways :\ As for the current duel, I'm willing to follow Yamato's plan for today (for now). Zare - Alderan tomorrow for the duel (most likely killing zare), and then we can decide on it further from then. Thus, if no one has objections I will vote Hapa in about 90 minutes. | ||
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Zare vs X is the most appropriate duel for today. PS: On March 06 2013 04:02 zarepath wrote: Syl didn't have a case or a reason on Hapa, but a super long listy post about general lynch strategy. At the end of it he says he'll vote Hapa in 90 minutes, which doesn't happen. The vote from Adam already happened as I came back to vote ~100 minutes after my previous post. After the hammer fell it was quiet time until mod came, so there wasn't exactly much to say about that. | ||
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GG and wp by town, Cora I agree and will be taking a break for a bit from Mafia until I can find more energy to post after work. The last couple of weeks have been draining and all I want to do is sleep lol. | ||
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