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On February 15 2013 08:20 slOosh wrote:
phagga also isn't scumhunting, but it isn't as blindingly obvious as the lurker prplhz. Look at his lines of questioning - they are painfully weak and it's not so much him trying to gather information to make conclusions, but just asking around. The two biggests reads he has had in the game, yamato and VE were dropped when town sentiments were different. He is go-with-the-flow blendy scum.
My reads changed when Yamato and VE started to make more sense. I had my vote on Yamato and asked him several times to answer my questions, when he did he actually did it in a convincing manner. That is why I took my vote off him. I also asked VE several times to answer my questions, until I not only got his answer, but also more posts from him that made me doubt my scum read on him.
seriously, this is joke. I was accused that me staying on JX and barely interacting with him D1 was scummy, and now I am getting accused for being scummy after changing my vote/read after interacting with Yamato.
I clearly pointed out which lines of Yamato made me unvote, go back and read it. Do you think that my reasoning is weak, or what is your problem with it?
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##Unvote
##Vote:sl0osh
Read through the game; what has this guy actually done?
On February 15 2013 16:29 Mocsta wrote:You know whats funny; everyone saying how great a player sl0osh is.. even he said it as a criteria for his nomination Day1. Yet, what has he actually done this game? - He has not stepped up as a town leader like his reputation dictates he should.
He hasnt beefed up his contributions like he promised he would after disappearing Day 1... he even admits to not having solid reads.
if this was palmar; you would go, super player with this level of output.. gotta be scumI said before, Mr.CC was my weakest read out of my scum reads. When I look through him tonight, I am also going to look through sl0osh; cos that guy has been fuckn blendy too. Quick summary of sl0osh over multiple days - Makes cases that read well; but when summarised are weak
- Pushes reads and then backs off.
-> You should know that first hand yamato. All townies dream of having that control in their play (to give up a false read); but who actually does it without much resistance? The answer? + Show Spoiler +Yet sl0osh has already done this behaviour multiple times. Theres some food for thought.
He has been a politician the whole time.- Steps in directs the flow here and there; but what has he actually contributed?
- Promises to be more active; doesnt deliver
- Promises firm reads; then recants
He even tried to provide some active opposition to the Snarfs lynch.
Then there is the stuff people already discussed:- Overly apologetic to VE
- The last minute vote swap itself
- His criteria for voting me this nomination - which I already called him out for, no response.
I haven't seen any of the anticipated expert analysis? Is he any closer to having the game solved than JX was?
Why again is this guy with a 4-page filter so valuable to town?
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One on hand, I want to lynch slOosh. On the other hand. I dont want to lynch slOosh. I DONT KNOW WHAT TO DO.
Ok
By virtue of playing badly. And cause I really hope he flips scum.
##Unvote:
##Vote: slOosh
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As I stated earlier I think all nominees are probably town. Therefore I went through their filters with an emphasis on how their analysis/posts benefits town.
Mocsta: He was annoyed by oats after their banter, but reads him as null/leaning town. He gives his own thoughts on many things. Nice analysis of Yamatos cases on Mocsta and me. Is unable to see that he was responsible for the escalation with Oats in the beginning too. His playthrough of the different Oats/Mocsta possibilities is biased and weak. I Like the short analysis on Jay D1, and good follow-up. He says he was dissapointed that sloosh did not contribute more during D2. He has less analysis later on, but is still pointing out stuff and giving his thoughts on things freely. Finally, I agree with his analysis on sloosh.
Mr. Cheesecake: His early analysis on snarfs, me and djo is ok. Lots of interactions with many people. Does not have a lot of big analysis on D1, but he points out many small things. Good analysis on Yamato. Good analysis on snarfs before the lynch. In his case on me he interpretes stuff I said differently than I meant it (see my earlier defense), but his case is better than the one from sloosh.
Sloosh: He has a good analysis of yamato in the beginning, and good analysis of the nomination process. Although I do not like that he shut down the discussion about it. Bad case on me. His pushing of VE was ok, later votes him. Says in this post that he is not as confident in his reads as he usually is. I already said why I don't like his latest post on me, and also pointed out that I think his logic for a Mocsta misslynch tomorrow is fail.
From this it is clear for me that Mr. Cheesecake will not get my vote. I also feel that Mocsta's posts are more helpful to town then sloosh's.
Therefore,
##Vote: Sloosh
I'm on the train. Weekend starts, which is mainly family time.
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Here is why I think Mocsta is scum. First of all, his response to my Snarfs case.
On February 07 2013 09:46 Mocsta wrote:hmm just back from a meeting and saw your post VE. What you wrote was interesting, I dont feel the same way you do about the first post + vote. At the time I interpreted it as a pressure vote, standard Day1 banter. Having said that, it left me null: breaking up fights is not alignment indicative. As for the final post you quoted; im at a cross roads too. I dont like he defended Palmar without reason, it was something I noted (internally) before too. But I dont know you enough to know if the meta argument is valid, aside from that, I dont see much from him to support a vote that could carry to a lynch. ====== Im not supporting a Snarfs lynch with the current post interactions. Yes, I need to see more from Snarfs, Yes, he has done a good job of standing in the middle, and Yes when asked to present info, it was not as analytical as I would have hoped. He is actuallyl asking us to look into the filter, instead of present his "finds". While the last point can be seem as scummy, im actually fixated on Yamato currently (I am about to start building a case / retort to his case on me) - its hard building a case at work 
What I didn't like about this post at the time was how he seemed to agree with my case, while at the same time not agreeing with Snarfs' lynch? The only town-motivated reasoning I can find for this is that maybe he was more certain of who he was pushing. At this point in time it's Yamato. Let's take a look at his case.
On February 07 2013 11:01 Mocsta wrote:(1)Mocsta breakdown on Yamato Case against Mocstahttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=17#335+ Show Spoiler +On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 22:18 Mocsta wrote:On January 20 2013 22:11 Djodref wrote:
@ Mocsta
Sorry, I didn't see your answer.
Do you really think yamato is going to be elected today ? I personally don't think so becauset yamato didn't "officially" campaign, and he is not known to have good reads so...
If not, I'm curious to know what raised your attention in his posts. It doesnt matter if i think yamato is a candidate with a chance to win, I represent one vote out of 22. I thought yamato campaigned passive-aggressively; just like Toad.
Its an approach I am oft in favour of when attempting to look squeaky-clean whilst attempting to manipulate. Having said that, its not pertinent to determining alignment. At least not with the information we have currently. This is from page 1 of Mocsta's filter in LIX, the game he was town. He gives out, in the part I bolded, his rationale in thinking Toad and I might be mafia, but in doing so reveals his own thought process when mafia, that being passive-aggressive is a way to play mafia. Yes, being passive-aggressive is “A” way to play mafia. There are also many other ways. Whats the point of this? You are meant to adapt to the environment at hand. I have given my thought process of how to manipulate staying off the radar; you can do that as town or scum. Your thought process is very lazy Yamato, and the outcome you have specified lacks conviction. In fact the conviction is so NOT present I can not even say you are confirmation biased. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 16:38 Mocsta wrote:On January 12 2013 14:22 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'm not denying, discussion is good/important and if nobody starts it scum autowin. However, if a scum can get control of town fast, they almost instawin. As a gambit, it seems fair since people like you are jumping in to defend him pretty fast. @Sn0_ManI appreciate the sense of energy you are giving back to this thread, and I certainly do not want to deter that; town needs this energy. BUT.. you are almost sounding "paranoid" - I know this, because after my last game, many assumed I was "paranoid". I think we both want the same thing, a town environment where people can voice their opinion and join together for the scum hunt. When you say "it seems fair since people like you are jumping in to defend him pretty fast"; that alienates participants from wanting to contribute. You are actually creating an environment scum can thrive in with that attitude - even though I doubt that is your intention. I ask that you please think about the above. This is the first alignment-indicative post Mocsta made in NMM XXXV, the game he was mafia. What do you notice here? I do not see how this is alignment-indicative. If so, I would have been a scum read to everyone in the game. (P.S. I was a town read at that point). And as others stated, the tone is completely different between the two. Hence as above, lazy heuristics (is starting to become a common theme). Try again. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 15:49 Mocsta wrote:
Oats you have an uncanny ability to read a wall of text and focus on one word in that paragraph.
You sound like a whiny chick to me, who hears one word she doesnt like, and zones off to everything else.
I AM NOT SETUP SPECULATING. The fuckn setup is 9 town, 4 mafia.
I am saying we need to make scum work hard to become read as town,
I am saying good play Day1 is to emphasise quality posts, and avoid being a lurker
I am saying, bad play Day1, is going to make nominations for scum in Day2 much fuckn easier. He's making the same sort of argument about Oats this game that he did about Sn0 in the other game, that their play isn't "optimal" and they are "helping mafia". It's a fabricated read, in my eyes, and a fabricated contribution to say such things. It doesn't matter how a player is playing versus how you think the ideal town player SHOULD play, it matters if that player is playing in a way you know mafia would play. The argument is completely different. I have said repeatedly, Oats is taking a simplistic view at this game. His motto is “lynch the scummiest player”; which yes, whilst the aim of the game, is not as straight forward as that line. I have pointed out several reasons why that is case. You can read my filter if you have forgotten what they are. And I disagree with your last statement. The game of forum mafia is constantly changing. Meta shifts are constantly occurring. If we know how mafia play and react, and lynch off that; we would never mislynch and the game would be instantly solved. This is obviously not the case. Again, such a blunt statement and lazy heuristics. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 22:38 Mocsta wrote:
Well im going to bed anyways.. will check in the thread in the morning, and will then be away for at least 6 hrs. *sigh*
Please generate some discussions USA shift ! There are still plenty of players who have not even posted yet.
zebezt, trust me.. I know the feeling to want some discussion happening, but, as town we don't want to create spam. Unfortunately now its just a waiting game for some activity.
[Unless 24hrs has expired.. thats my personal deadline for lurker calling] Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 17:10 Mocsta wrote:
Oats,
Stop getting over-defensive. Now you have to spell out actions.
If you couldnt tell my post was a joke, you have problems.
And your comment regarding my intentions is stupid. You admit yourself it is "optimal play'.. well no shit, why you think I am striving for that. Im not trying to re-invent the wheel.
Again you are flinging shit at an active participant, and for what purpose?
Still, no one is contributing; and the one guy who does, you tell him to "fuck off" whether joke or not.
Lay off the juice and give others a chance to input into the thread. Those two posts showcase a trait I see in Mafia Mocsta's play, a preoccupation with "contribution" and "lurking" from other players. Aside from the meta similarity here, the mafia trait is that he's doing exactly what he thinks people give out town reads for, and indeed what some of you have given him a town read for this game, simply post. He calls out "lurkers" to appear to contribute and care about the town atmosphere, something I readily see as a common trait in his mafia game and this one. I already addressed this here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=19#373TL;DRThe mafia trait he is referring to, is actually me emulating my townie trait. Again argument that doesn’t hold up; its obvious the tone between the two quoted posted is different (as the motives are different). Lazy heuristics once again. That’s 4 strikes in a row. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote:
I highly doubt Mocsta is town. Who is his scum read so far? All I see in his filter is a bunch of arguing with Oats, and then arriving at the conclusion that he's town/null/whatever. It doesn't look to me like he's hunting mafia, it looks like to me that he's just trying to look town. Who is my scum read? Yamato, who has been online whilst I was active? Only Oats; who was constantly trying to argue with me, even when I was asking to walk away. Again, your entire case, each point referenced lacks any conviction – which is highly unusual for your meta known for confirmation bias. On top of this, your case is full of lazy heuristics. All points have been disputed (easily) This lack of care is enough to warrant your vote; but lets give benefit of the doubt and examine your town tells on Phagga, and the pressure that made you release the town tells. ============================== (2)Mocsta breakdown on Yamato read on Phagga+ Show Spoiler +On February 07 2013 01:59 yamato77 wrote:
I see what Sloosh is saying about Phagga, and I agree on some level that his entrance to the thread has been weak, and relatively quiet so far. There are some things that make me doubt his scumminess, however, so what I need from him is some more meaningful contribution on things that aren't setup. That also goes for VE, who was here early spouting setup info, and then dropped off. Translation: I doubt Phagga scumminess, read = null to leaning town On February 07 2013 02:34 yamato77 wrote:
I'll make my case on Mocsta, then.
I won't be giving out my town tells, however. OK, that’s fine; giving out town tells early is dangerous so agreed. On February 07 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote:
I said I agree with the general scumminess of phagga, in that he has some of the things I think mafia might do in his play so far.
What I didn't tell you is why I doubt those, and I'm not going to. You've got to do better than equate phagga to Mocsta to prove he's scum.
You're making an association case here, which is incredibly scummy this early in day 1. Complete contradiction. The first post @ 02:00 says you doubt his scumminess. @ 03:42 you now say, some things are mafia oriented. In the same post you back pedal and say you still doubt it. Which is it, town or scum? You’re doing your best to stay in the middle and not commit. The contradictions are clear. You top off this post, by claiming Sl00sh is making association cases, which is clearly not happening (others already called you out on this) On February 07 2013 03:54 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 03:53 VisceraEyes wrote:
Oh you. Of course I can't consolidate my posts. ^^ I'm not even spamming.
One thing I didn't like about yamato's case on Mocsta doesn't even have to do with the content of the case...it's the lack of a vote attached to it. It's like he's feeling out the lynch before committing.
Yamato accuses Mocsta of "fabricating" his read on Oats, but most of what he's accusing Mocsta of is not even alignment indicative. Honestly, I don't even know what "fabricating" a read means.
On the whole, I don't like what I've seen from yamato so far. It's reminiscent of his attack on me in the last game we played.
Lemme go take a look at phagga. I noticed that he was your top read only a few posts ago, now he's "to a lesser degree". Should I assume you're disliking yamato more now? I already have my vote on him. I understand what you're saying, though I don't think this is anything like my attack on you in Normal 4. This is an example of alignment: null post (Yamato). So what if your attack is nothing like Normal 4. Each game is different. That statement does not make you town in any way, shape or form. On February 07 2013 04:36 yamato77 wrote:
Furthermore, note that if you don't think anyone could get a read on him at this point, I haven't exactly given my certain read on him either. My references to him have been that I think he's overall scummy, but there are things that make me doubt it, and that I want MORE from him to get a better read.
I think this was just a misunderstanding. You thought I had a town read I didn't. Fair enough. Note “He’s” refers to phagga and is overall scummy. Noted 2hrs prior the below: On February 07 2013 01:59 yamato77 wrote:
Phagga …There are some things that make me doubt his scumminess This does not read as the above: I think he is scummy, but some things make me doubt it. Why the change within 2hrs 30? Perhaps the read of Phagga below will expound on the change in read. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote:
While this is, indeed, similar language to Mocsta and my mafia tell on him, the fact that he points out things about Mocsta in general so far makes me think him more town. Why would one mafia player pick at his mate this early in the game? It's a weak tell, like I've said, but it is one nonetheless. This is indeed weak, at least you admit it. How about this: Why would one town player pick at another town player early this game? How about this: Why would a mafia player pick at a town player early this game? Lazy heuristics again, you treat one example to suit your agenda, and do not consider any other options. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote:
He reached the same conclusion I did about Prplhz, something I find encouraging for his town alignment. Perhaps this is a little foolhardy, to think someone town for thinking like me, but giving out a quick town read like that is also a towntell to me in general. Check this out (before Phagga posted liking Prplhz) On February 06 2013 23:29 Mocsta wrote:Hi Palomar. Can u please expand on why? I recognise both alignmnets can break up fights. But I thought the way prplhz went about it was fairly constructive. I.e. I didn't get a scum vibe from it. So why is when Phagga does it, you get a town read. When I do the same thing, its not. Your point is moot; and is part of the contradictions Sl00sh noted about you. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote:
He calls out Palmar, and gives an accurate analysis of what he's done so far. While I know Palmar can, and will, do this as either mafia or town, the fact that he bothers to notice and point it out is somewhat encouraging. Again, I could be wrong about this as people agreeing with my first impressions aren't always town, but it's enough for me to doubt him being mafia, which is what I've said about him so far.
Happy now? Do I need to point out the above post? I am asking Palmar to dictate why he made that choice. I take the same action as Phagga (and before him), yet he is town, I am not. ============================== TL;DRYour scum cases are full of lazy heuristics. Your town tells are full of double standards. You points lack conviction, and cant even be read as confirmation biased. Town has no reason to be sitting on the fence his openly; especially after receiving pressure. Incorporating all these points is clear scum motive to me. ##Vote: Yamato77
So he's not interested in lynching scum my target in spite of him literally listing off several scummy actions he's committed, but he's willing to lynch Yamato in spite of Yamato clearly contributing to the thread (he's made cases on scum and explained why he has town reads on people) just because he thinks he might sense scum motivation in Yamato's play.
It doesn't wash. He doesn't read as any more certain of a Yamato lynch, but made a special effort to debunk my Snarfs lynch before it even took off. He didn't even let any pressure build on Snarfs before stating unequivocally that he would not support the lynch.
Let's fast-forward to the Snarfs lynch. During this time, Mocsta's time was spent trying to justify not voting for Snarfs while simultaneously casting suspicion on the two people responsible for him being a candidate in the first place. See the following posts.
On February 11 2013 16:34 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 16:15 Oatsmaster wrote:
lol, so you dont think Snarf and Prp are scum?
Your reasons for both of them are not cause they are scum, its cause they havent answered all the questions levied at them? Isnt that kinda of a shitty reason to focus on them? I am not saying Snarf/prplhz are not scum at all. I am saying: If you pressure 4-5 guys at the same time, maybe only 2 (if you're lucky 3) respond. Then the remaining 2 guys walk away and get forgotten. Hence, I think it is best to concentrate of 2 (max 3) guys; get the results we need, and then move on to the next target.
Acknowledging that Snarfs is being looked at, but asks that people stop looking at him.
On February 11 2013 16:55 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 16:46 Oatsmaster wrote:
Um Im posting so no?
Like lol k Mocsta.
Im struggling to understand how not answering questions makes them your n1 scum read.
Dude, don't be a Snarfs...read the thread; I am not going to summarise what has already been stated. Either way; why are you trying to banter with me? If I am a town read of yours; you're cluttering the thread arguing with me; and not providing any benefit for it.
I'm not sure what this post is supposed to say about Snarfs' alignment - I think it's saying that Snarfs isn't reading the thread, which I take as a scumtell, but could just as easily be lazy town. It's extremely fence-sitty, something he can be found calling people out for much earlier than this.
On February 12 2013 10:11 Mocsta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 09:15 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah that got nixxed my bad. Cheese multiple times in his filter asks people to make a case on him, or "tunnel me bro"...with the intent to "get a better read on his accusers". That's too attention-whorey to be scummy. Not to mention he's one of like two people who have agreed with me on Snarfs like all game. I'm just not interested in lynching Cheese.
Also, this is a minor point, but something that pretty well seals my read of him: I disagree. Asking people to discourse is not a town tell at all. Its an easy way to gain town cred; so i am surprised you have given CC the green light based on this type of justification. Further, people agreeing with your lynch candidates, is not indicative of town alignment either http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagonSo far, all I have seen are null tells; which you are construing as "sealed" town read. Show nested quote +Regarding yamato, I'll filter him. I haven't read much on yamato to be honest. I welcome your read on yamato, hopefully there is more substance than the above.
And here is Mocsta trying to discredit my town-read on CC while simultaneously trying to cast suspicion on me. I provided my reasoning, and frankly it doesn't matter to me if Mocsta thinks it's good enough because at this point I'm not interested in lynching Cheese...and from what I'm seeing in the thread, neither is Mocsta. So what's the point of this? It's to shed doubt on both CC and VE simultaneously. And what are CC and VE simultaneously doing? Trying to lynch scum Snarfs.
Now, eventually Mocsta does capitulate on the Snarfs lynch. Let's see why.
On February 13 2013 09:22 Mocsta wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote: Snarfs
Its actually pretty weird he hasnt been present at all recently; especially now he is vote leader, and cant even make a statement.
So rather than vote for his scumread, VE, he's settling on a lurker lynch? Yeeeeeah. I think Mocsta is scum. I think he used his early activity to hide behind 2 scummy lurkers in Nominations for some o dat EZ town cred.
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Ok. The snarfs lynch was a goldmine.
There are some timing things with the voting and some scenarios I want to lay out
Will be getting on it tonight at the latest.
For now, I will most definitely not lynch cc based on his snarfs lynch. Sloosh, in the end, voted for scum, but if I read correctly his vote was after the deciding vote. Ill have to reread him. Finally, I believe as of now that mocsta should be the lynch today based on his multiple times of defending snarfs (whether soft or hard). Mocsta also tried to push counter candidates hard all day 3 away from snarfs
##vote mocsta
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Ah ve. I see you agree with me
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Day 4 Vote Count:
Mr. Cheesecake (0): Mocsta, Oatsmaster
Mocsta (4): VisceraEyes, yamato77, slOosh, debears
slOosh (3): Oatsmaster, Mocsta, Oatsmaster, Phagga
Deadline in ~7 hours. prplhz, jaybrundage, Mr. Cheesecake have yet to vote
Currently Mocsta is set to be lynched.
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I don't believe that Mocsta is scum and I'm voting for Mr. Cheesecake. I don't really care who you lynch of Mocsta and slOosh since I believe they're both town.
##Mr. Cheesecake
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On February 16 2013 04:28 prplhz wrote:
I don't believe that Mocsta is scum and I'm voting for Mr. Cheesecake. I don't really care who you lynch of Mocsta and slOosh since I believe they're both town.
##Mr. Cheesecake
So you would believe that cc as supposed scum would push his scumbuddy day 1 on and then spearhead a bus lynch on snarfs over a lynch on yamato or someone else?
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On February 16 2013 04:34 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 04:28 prplhz wrote:
I don't believe that Mocsta is scum and I'm voting for Mr. Cheesecake. I don't really care who you lynch of Mocsta and slOosh since I believe they're both town.
##Mr. Cheesecake So you would believe that cc as supposed scum would push his scumbuddy day 1 on and then spearhead a bus lynch on snarfs over a lynch on yamato or someone else?
For Clarity I would like to note that CC did defend yamato then went after him. As a scum candidate but when the wagon didn't pick up steam dropped his read
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Also Mocsta what happened to your CC scum read. While you did say it was your weakest read is it still a read at all. Also your new thoughts on VE Yamato plz
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On February 16 2013 07:14 jaybrundage wrote:
Also Mocsta what happened to your CC scum read. While you did say it was your weakest read is it still a read at all. Also your new thoughts on VE Yamato plz
What happened:
Before going through CC filter: i decided to do a quick analysis of
Day 1 - Day4
i.e. I listed every single vote; and every time someone gave reads.
it is from there I noticed that CC has been relatively forthcoming all game; whereas, sl0osh has made good impressions and then taken long breathers - only resurrecting when it suits his agenda.
I find that to be a problem.
I still find it strange from Day1 that sl0osh knew he would be up for nominations. I said from the start is was strange; because his absence from the thread shed him in a scummy light; there was no need for him to be there.. yet he was.
I am back to thinking yamato is scum; and he would be my top candidate tomorrow now.
Some problems I have with yamato
- Never addresses cases to him
- Made a scum meta read on me, detailing MANY quotes completely misinterpreted/misrepresented
- Made a town meta read on prplhz, detailing 1 or 2 quotes and using that to say "hey he is town"
- Interestingly enough, prplhz supplied the game linking Snarfs shitty-meta case on VE - hardly alignment indicate as evidence on its own.. but with a Snarfs flip - interesting
The other thing with yamato is; he made a big point to say yesterday he doesn;t make defenses on cases founded on misinterpretations blah blah; but so far his cases seem to be full of it. - Convenient double standards.
Then there is that early list of town reads; perhaps he thinks he is WBG or toadestern LOL
Hopefully I have simplified my points enough for yamato to comment.
Final scum; if yamato flips scum, I would swap VE for prplhz
Its hard to resist VE; especially after his crappy case on me.
But yamato meta read on prplhz is *VERY* suspicious.
With VE case on me:
Its worse than yamato original case on me. My comments on Snarfs read transparent; I did not think he was scum for a long time. Why does that make me scum? My reason for voting him was transparent too; when a guy is under the pump they come in defend; that was the tell I needed to swap votes to Snarfs. I do not see the problem VE is trying to fabricate.
Compare to the overly apologetic sl0osh; interesting.
=====================
The wildcard for me is debears.
Djo play was odd/bad town at best, and scummy at worst.
What has debears agenda been since coming in as a replacement.... throwing dirt at me?
It has been clear for some time now that I have been town; yet this nomination, some have piped up voiced concerns when the concerns were lacking before. Djo has been a clear supporter of that movement; which is odd.
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On February 16 2013 03:41 debears wrote:
Mocsta also tried to push counter candidates hard all day 3 away from snarfs
##vote mocsta
Didn't realise pushing people you had voted (before Snarfs became a bandwagon) was a scum tell...
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On February 16 2013 03:39 VisceraEyes wrote:Here is why I think Mocsta is scum. First of all, his response to my Snarfs case. Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 09:46 Mocsta wrote:hmm just back from a meeting and saw your post VE. What you wrote was interesting, I dont feel the same way you do about the first post + vote. At the time I interpreted it as a pressure vote, standard Day1 banter. Having said that, it left me null: breaking up fights is not alignment indicative. As for the final post you quoted; im at a cross roads too. I dont like he defended Palmar without reason, it was something I noted (internally) before too. But I dont know you enough to know if the meta argument is valid, aside from that, I dont see much from him to support a vote that could carry to a lynch. ====== Im not supporting a Snarfs lynch with the current post interactions. Yes, I need to see more from Snarfs, Yes, he has done a good job of standing in the middle, and Yes when asked to present info, it was not as analytical as I would have hoped. He is actuallyl asking us to look into the filter, instead of present his "finds". While the last point can be seem as scummy, im actually fixated on Yamato currently (I am about to start building a case / retort to his case on me) - its hard building a case at work What I didn't like about this post at the time was how he seemed to agree with my case, while at the same time not agreeing with Snarfs' lynch? The only town-motivated reasoning I can find for this is that maybe he was more certain of who he was pushing. At this point in time it's Yamato. Let's take a look at his case.
Reading this is like going back in time. Its my thoughts exactly as I had them. I liked the points in general, but I still had a stronger read on yamato. Good to know you could figure this one out.
Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 11:01 Mocsta wrote:(1)Mocsta breakdown on Yamato Case against Mocstahttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=17#335+ Show Spoiler +On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2013 22:18 Mocsta wrote:On January 20 2013 22:11 Djodref wrote:
@ Mocsta
Sorry, I didn't see your answer.
Do you really think yamato is going to be elected today ? I personally don't think so becauset yamato didn't "officially" campaign, and he is not known to have good reads so...
If not, I'm curious to know what raised your attention in his posts. It doesnt matter if i think yamato is a candidate with a chance to win, I represent one vote out of 22. I thought yamato campaigned passive-aggressively; just like Toad.
Its an approach I am oft in favour of when attempting to look squeaky-clean whilst attempting to manipulate. Having said that, its not pertinent to determining alignment. At least not with the information we have currently. This is from page 1 of Mocsta's filter in LIX, the game he was town. He gives out, in the part I bolded, his rationale in thinking Toad and I might be mafia, but in doing so reveals his own thought process when mafia, that being passive-aggressive is a way to play mafia. Yes, being passive-aggressive is “A” way to play mafia. There are also many other ways. Whats the point of this? You are meant to adapt to the environment at hand. I have given my thought process of how to manipulate staying off the radar; you can do that as town or scum. Your thought process is very lazy Yamato, and the outcome you have specified lacks conviction. In fact the conviction is so NOT present I can not even say you are confirmation biased. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 16:38 Mocsta wrote:On January 12 2013 14:22 Sn0_Man wrote:
I'm not denying, discussion is good/important and if nobody starts it scum autowin. However, if a scum can get control of town fast, they almost instawin. As a gambit, it seems fair since people like you are jumping in to defend him pretty fast. @Sn0_ManI appreciate the sense of energy you are giving back to this thread, and I certainly do not want to deter that; town needs this energy. BUT.. you are almost sounding "paranoid" - I know this, because after my last game, many assumed I was "paranoid". I think we both want the same thing, a town environment where people can voice their opinion and join together for the scum hunt. When you say "it seems fair since people like you are jumping in to defend him pretty fast"; that alienates participants from wanting to contribute. You are actually creating an environment scum can thrive in with that attitude - even though I doubt that is your intention. I ask that you please think about the above. This is the first alignment-indicative post Mocsta made in NMM XXXV, the game he was mafia. What do you notice here? I do not see how this is alignment-indicative. If so, I would have been a scum read to everyone in the game. (P.S. I was a town read at that point). And as others stated, the tone is completely different between the two. Hence as above, lazy heuristics (is starting to become a common theme). Try again. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 15:49 Mocsta wrote:
Oats you have an uncanny ability to read a wall of text and focus on one word in that paragraph.
You sound like a whiny chick to me, who hears one word she doesnt like, and zones off to everything else.
I AM NOT SETUP SPECULATING. The fuckn setup is 9 town, 4 mafia.
I am saying we need to make scum work hard to become read as town,
I am saying good play Day1 is to emphasise quality posts, and avoid being a lurker
I am saying, bad play Day1, is going to make nominations for scum in Day2 much fuckn easier. He's making the same sort of argument about Oats this game that he did about Sn0 in the other game, that their play isn't "optimal" and they are "helping mafia". It's a fabricated read, in my eyes, and a fabricated contribution to say such things. It doesn't matter how a player is playing versus how you think the ideal town player SHOULD play, it matters if that player is playing in a way you know mafia would play. The argument is completely different. I have said repeatedly, Oats is taking a simplistic view at this game. His motto is “lynch the scummiest player”; which yes, whilst the aim of the game, is not as straight forward as that line. I have pointed out several reasons why that is case. You can read my filter if you have forgotten what they are. And I disagree with your last statement. The game of forum mafia is constantly changing. Meta shifts are constantly occurring. If we know how mafia play and react, and lynch off that; we would never mislynch and the game would be instantly solved. This is obviously not the case. Again, such a blunt statement and lazy heuristics. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2013 22:38 Mocsta wrote:
Well im going to bed anyways.. will check in the thread in the morning, and will then be away for at least 6 hrs. *sigh*
Please generate some discussions USA shift ! There are still plenty of players who have not even posted yet.
zebezt, trust me.. I know the feeling to want some discussion happening, but, as town we don't want to create spam. Unfortunately now its just a waiting game for some activity.
[Unless 24hrs has expired.. thats my personal deadline for lurker calling] Show nested quote +On February 06 2013 17:10 Mocsta wrote:
Oats,
Stop getting over-defensive. Now you have to spell out actions.
If you couldnt tell my post was a joke, you have problems.
And your comment regarding my intentions is stupid. You admit yourself it is "optimal play'.. well no shit, why you think I am striving for that. Im not trying to re-invent the wheel.
Again you are flinging shit at an active participant, and for what purpose?
Still, no one is contributing; and the one guy who does, you tell him to "fuck off" whether joke or not.
Lay off the juice and give others a chance to input into the thread. Those two posts showcase a trait I see in Mafia Mocsta's play, a preoccupation with "contribution" and "lurking" from other players. Aside from the meta similarity here, the mafia trait is that he's doing exactly what he thinks people give out town reads for, and indeed what some of you have given him a town read for this game, simply post. He calls out "lurkers" to appear to contribute and care about the town atmosphere, something I readily see as a common trait in his mafia game and this one. I already addressed this here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=395690¤tpage=19#373TL;DRThe mafia trait he is referring to, is actually me emulating my townie trait. Again argument that doesn’t hold up; its obvious the tone between the two quoted posted is different (as the motives are different). Lazy heuristics once again. That’s 4 strikes in a row. On February 07 2013 03:05 yamato77 wrote:
I highly doubt Mocsta is town. Who is his scum read so far? All I see in his filter is a bunch of arguing with Oats, and then arriving at the conclusion that he's town/null/whatever. It doesn't look to me like he's hunting mafia, it looks like to me that he's just trying to look town. Who is my scum read? Yamato, who has been online whilst I was active? Only Oats; who was constantly trying to argue with me, even when I was asking to walk away. Again, your entire case, each point referenced lacks any conviction – which is highly unusual for your meta known for confirmation bias. On top of this, your case is full of lazy heuristics. All points have been disputed (easily) This lack of care is enough to warrant your vote; but lets give benefit of the doubt and examine your town tells on Phagga, and the pressure that made you release the town tells. ============================== (2)Mocsta breakdown on Yamato read on Phagga+ Show Spoiler +On February 07 2013 01:59 yamato77 wrote:
I see what Sloosh is saying about Phagga, and I agree on some level that his entrance to the thread has been weak, and relatively quiet so far. There are some things that make me doubt his scumminess, however, so what I need from him is some more meaningful contribution on things that aren't setup. That also goes for VE, who was here early spouting setup info, and then dropped off. Translation: I doubt Phagga scumminess, read = null to leaning town On February 07 2013 02:34 yamato77 wrote:
I'll make my case on Mocsta, then.
I won't be giving out my town tells, however. OK, that’s fine; giving out town tells early is dangerous so agreed. On February 07 2013 03:42 yamato77 wrote:
I said I agree with the general scumminess of phagga, in that he has some of the things I think mafia might do in his play so far.
What I didn't tell you is why I doubt those, and I'm not going to. You've got to do better than equate phagga to Mocsta to prove he's scum.
You're making an association case here, which is incredibly scummy this early in day 1. Complete contradiction. The first post @ 02:00 says you doubt his scumminess. @ 03:42 you now say, some things are mafia oriented. In the same post you back pedal and say you still doubt it. Which is it, town or scum? You’re doing your best to stay in the middle and not commit. The contradictions are clear. You top off this post, by claiming Sl00sh is making association cases, which is clearly not happening (others already called you out on this) On February 07 2013 03:54 yamato77 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 03:53 VisceraEyes wrote:
Oh you. Of course I can't consolidate my posts. ^^ I'm not even spamming.
One thing I didn't like about yamato's case on Mocsta doesn't even have to do with the content of the case...it's the lack of a vote attached to it. It's like he's feeling out the lynch before committing.
Yamato accuses Mocsta of "fabricating" his read on Oats, but most of what he's accusing Mocsta of is not even alignment indicative. Honestly, I don't even know what "fabricating" a read means.
On the whole, I don't like what I've seen from yamato so far. It's reminiscent of his attack on me in the last game we played.
Lemme go take a look at phagga. I noticed that he was your top read only a few posts ago, now he's "to a lesser degree". Should I assume you're disliking yamato more now? I already have my vote on him. I understand what you're saying, though I don't think this is anything like my attack on you in Normal 4. This is an example of alignment: null post (Yamato). So what if your attack is nothing like Normal 4. Each game is different. That statement does not make you town in any way, shape or form. On February 07 2013 04:36 yamato77 wrote:
Furthermore, note that if you don't think anyone could get a read on him at this point, I haven't exactly given my certain read on him either. My references to him have been that I think he's overall scummy, but there are things that make me doubt it, and that I want MORE from him to get a better read.
I think this was just a misunderstanding. You thought I had a town read I didn't. Fair enough. Note “He’s” refers to phagga and is overall scummy. Noted 2hrs prior the below: On February 07 2013 01:59 yamato77 wrote:
Phagga …There are some things that make me doubt his scumminess This does not read as the above: I think he is scummy, but some things make me doubt it. Why the change within 2hrs 30? Perhaps the read of Phagga below will expound on the change in read. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote:
While this is, indeed, similar language to Mocsta and my mafia tell on him, the fact that he points out things about Mocsta in general so far makes me think him more town. Why would one mafia player pick at his mate this early in the game? It's a weak tell, like I've said, but it is one nonetheless. This is indeed weak, at least you admit it. How about this: Why would one town player pick at another town player early this game? How about this: Why would a mafia player pick at a town player early this game? Lazy heuristics again, you treat one example to suit your agenda, and do not consider any other options. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote:
He reached the same conclusion I did about Prplhz, something I find encouraging for his town alignment. Perhaps this is a little foolhardy, to think someone town for thinking like me, but giving out a quick town read like that is also a towntell to me in general. Check this out (before Phagga posted liking Prplhz) On February 06 2013 23:29 Mocsta wrote:Hi Palomar. Can u please expand on why? I recognise both alignmnets can break up fights. But I thought the way prplhz went about it was fairly constructive. I.e. I didn't get a scum vibe from it. So why is when Phagga does it, you get a town read. When I do the same thing, its not. Your point is moot; and is part of the contradictions Sl00sh noted about you. On February 07 2013 04:46 yamato77 wrote:
He calls out Palmar, and gives an accurate analysis of what he's done so far. While I know Palmar can, and will, do this as either mafia or town, the fact that he bothers to notice and point it out is somewhat encouraging. Again, I could be wrong about this as people agreeing with my first impressions aren't always town, but it's enough for me to doubt him being mafia, which is what I've said about him so far.
Happy now? Do I need to point out the above post? I am asking Palmar to dictate why he made that choice. I take the same action as Phagga (and before him), yet he is town, I am not. ============================== TL;DRYour scum cases are full of lazy heuristics. Your town tells are full of double standards. You points lack conviction, and cant even be read as confirmation biased. Town has no reason to be sitting on the fence his openly; especially after receiving pressure. Incorporating all these points is clear scum motive to me. ##Vote: Yamato77 So he's not interested in lynching scum my target in spite of him literally listing off several scummy actions he's committed, but he's willing to lynch Yamato in spite of Yamato clearly contributing to the thread (he's made cases on scum and explained why he has town reads on people) just because he thinks he might sense scum motivation in Yamato's play. It doesn't wash. He doesn't read as any more certain of a Yamato lynch, but made a special effort to debunk my Snarfs lynch before it even took off. He didn't even let any pressure build on Snarfs before stating unequivocally that he would not support the lynch.
LOL, so in the Day1 crapshoot, if you happen to think a scum could be town; then you are scum?? Is this the what your reputed experience dictates?
Yamato was my read; and if you’re telling me that reading my yamato case I was not set on lynching him; then you are full of shit. Even the TL;DR suggests I want to lynch him duly expressed with a vote…
Let's fast-forward to the Snarfs lynch. During this time, Mocsta's time was spent trying to justify not voting for Snarfs while simultaneously casting suspicion on the two people responsible for him being a candidate in the first place. See the following posts. Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 16:34 Mocsta wrote:On February 11 2013 16:15 Oatsmaster wrote:
lol, so you dont think Snarf and Prp are scum?
Your reasons for both of them are not cause they are scum, its cause they havent answered all the questions levied at them? Isnt that kinda of a shitty reason to focus on them? I am not saying Snarf/prplhz are not scum at all. I am saying: If you pressure 4-5 guys at the same time, maybe only 2 (if you're lucky 3) respond. Then the remaining 2 guys walk away and get forgotten. Hence, I think it is best to concentrate of 2 (max 3) guys; get the results we need, and then move on to the next target.
And what is wrong with that? Its good play; and you know it.
It is also funny how you choose to manipulate this situation to Snarfs; when it was clear and transparent I was making a general statement on how to play.
Acknowledging that Snarfs is being looked at, but asks that people stop looking at him. Show nested quote +On February 11 2013 16:55 Mocsta wrote:On February 11 2013 16:46 Oatsmaster wrote:
Um Im posting so no?
Like lol k Mocsta.
Im struggling to understand how not answering questions makes them your n1 scum read.
Dude, don't be a Snarfs...read the thread; I am not going to summarise what has already been stated. Either way; why are you trying to banter with me? If I am a town read of yours; you're cluttering the thread arguing with me; and not providing any benefit for it. I'm not sure what this post is supposed to say about Snarfs' alignment - I think it's saying that Snarfs isn't reading the thread, which I take as a scumtell, but could just as easily be lazy town. It's extremely fence-sitty, something he can be found calling people out for much earlier than this.
Yeah you hit it on the head.. hey guess what, when I voted Snarfs Day4 I said its because of no posting.. meaning, I confirmed that lazy town -> scumtell… lemme guess VE, that’s scummy as fuck too? LOL
Show nested quote +On February 12 2013 10:11 Mocsta wrote:On February 12 2013 09:15 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah that got nixxed my bad. Cheese multiple times in his filter asks people to make a case on him, or "tunnel me bro"...with the intent to "get a better read on his accusers". That's too attention-whorey to be scummy. Not to mention he's one of like two people who have agreed with me on Snarfs like all game. I'm just not interested in lynching Cheese.
Also, this is a minor point, but something that pretty well seals my read of him: I disagree. Asking people to discourse is not a town tell at all. Its an easy way to gain town cred; so i am surprised you have given CC the green light based on this type of justification. Further, people agreeing with your lynch candidates, is not indicative of town alignment either http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/bandwagonSo far, all I have seen are null tells; which you are construing as "sealed" town read. Regarding yamato, I'll filter him. I haven't read much on yamato to be honest. I welcome your read on yamato, hopefully there is more substance than the above. And here is Mocsta trying to discredit my town-read on CC while simultaneously trying to cast suspicion on me. I provided my reasoning, and frankly it doesn't matter to me if Mocsta thinks it's good enough because at this point I'm not interested in lynching Cheese...and from what I'm seeing in the thread, neither is Mocsta. So what's the point of this? It's to shed doubt on both CC and VE simultaneously. And what are CC and VE simultaneously doing? Trying to lynch scum Snarfs.
Right, so me have a scum read on you; me have a VOTE on you.. and I am not meant to point out (intentional) weak play from my scum read…. LOL
Your pointing out all the posts that make my play transparent, and make it clear I am town VE.
Maybe you don’t care about my reasoning whether scum or tell; but your tells for clear green, are non-alignment indicative… and in context of your pushes all game that’s scummy as fuck.
Now, eventually Mocsta does capitulate on the Snarfs lynch. Let's see why. Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 09:22 Mocsta wrote:
##Unvote
##Vote: Snarfs
Its actually pretty weird he hasnt been present at all recently; especially now he is vote leader, and cant even make a statement. So rather than vote for his scumread, VE, he's settling on a lurker lynch? Yeeeeeah. I think Mocsta is scum. I think he used his early activity to hide behind 2 scummy lurkers in Nominations for some o dat EZ town cred.
Its exactly as pointed out there, and pointed out before.
I didn’t like the activity and converted my read from lazy town -> scum tell.
Lemme guess, sl0osh vote swap boded well with you because he apologized?
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On February 16 2013 04:34 debears wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2013 04:28 prplhz wrote:
I don't believe that Mocsta is scum and I'm voting for Mr. Cheesecake. I don't really care who you lynch of Mocsta and slOosh since I believe they're both town.
##Mr. Cheesecake So you would believe that cc as supposed scum would push his scumbuddy day 1 on and then spearhead a bus lynch on snarfs over a lynch on yamato or someone else?
Possibly.
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Quick check in post.
Mocsta, I think all three nominees are town. The best we can make out of a 3 townie situation is remove as many mislynch possibilities as possible. From my perspective, seems real easy that scum could use CC flipping town to push your mislynch, or just keep you to push this paranoia case. If you think phagga is responsible for hammering Snarfs then I think you should reread the relevant pages.
This is stupid guys. Lynch prplhz. All this talk day 1 about lynching lurkers and here is one on a silver platter, and you guys think "oh that is too easy let's go lynch someone more difficult to find". Seriously. It's not like he is even promising any content this is so stupid.
If I end up dying, my scumreads are clear. Prplhz and phagga. Maybe yamato /debears after that.
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sl0osh
Can I ask for some succinct pointers on why VE is clear town to you?
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Day 4 Vote Count:
Mr. Cheesecake (1): Mocsta, Oatsmaster, prplhz
Mocsta (4): VisceraEyes, yamato77, slOosh, debears
slOosh (3): Oatsmaster, Mocsta, Oatsmaster, Phagga
Deadline in ~2 hours. jaybrundage, Mr. Cheesecake have yet to vote
Currently Mocsta is set to be lynched.
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Hey out of curiosity; if I get lynched today, does this count as a mislynch on my record?
Its kinda unique circumstance?
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EPT
