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On December 07 2012 10:22 yamato77 wrote:
Why would mafia kill a suspicious lurker?
Sorry missed the question so much went by in the thread I got lost for the intent.
Well take the example of newbie mini XXXI
It happened twice, once on the first day, when MunkE who had not posted much was lynched.
It also happened the second day, when aqua who was AFK got lynched.
His AFKs were nice and regular, but there was post by him that was quite
confusing about what may be able to happen.
I can see how you might think you have some evidence of a scum slip in the first instance
but I think if you reread that carefully it contains full disclosure.
Was there one of those examples you think would be more interesting to discuss.
Lurker Lynches, are quite different things to feigned AFK lynches.
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As I am here now, and I cant work out easily which posts are directed to me or anyone else, could we try being a bit interactive. A question please?
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Votecount
Not Voting:
Everybody
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Do you want to reread the game thread of that game at around that time and say why various people would do various things?
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@Axle
Given the Day1 lynch of Oats turning out to be a successful scum hit, and then Cheese being night killed during night 1, who do you feel is most likely to be the second scum.
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EBWOP Sorry not you me reread that games thread.
Aqua last post of the night were his best feel reads from the day.
As his vote is going down early due to those constraints it has to be on his best read.
He is aware that if he gets up in the morning has quick read of the thread and sheeps someone
then he will look bad. If he does not If the lynch goes somewhere else and finds scum he will look bad.
But he bravely took the risk. (as we know know he was town) at the time it also looked scummy as in
I dont care who gets lynched, and then fake claims to be AFK. This is the problem with all of these.
The largest risk scum takes, is when they first make a claim to anyone Hapi about who they are and what their relation ship is. Is it plausible that they thought that was good enough lie to get away with, considering what you have seen since.
yes WIFOm is an infinitely regressive game but at some point it such a ridiculously ballsy thing for a scum to do it I have never seen it done.
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Who is aqua and why did I have to read what you said about 3 times before I understood "Hapi" was not a player but the word "happy" -_-
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On December 07 2012 12:21 Sylencia wrote:
Who is aqua and why did I have to read what you said about 3 times before I understood "Hapi" was not a player but the word "happy" -_-
Feel free to be helpful like that as i dont know indirect to be.
However be ready to claim your dumb man
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You never explained who Aqua is. I honestly don't know.
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This one is gunna hurt. Blame it half on the allegory.
My now growing concerns
I also have strong feeling of confirmation bias. I thought it began in the lookout with view, but I starting to suspect all the pain dished was a setup. If you stop and think about who to... you will see self control. I will consider what I think of that after this setup is over. Given that from the start I told the truth and was possibly lied to... way to go town. The tendency to OMGUS LAL is so strong, if the truth is what I think it is. That is for later when you guys decide its your turn to start offering some or any truth as evidence of your intentions. When did all the lies start? In the beginning or at the lookout or are all the toys still yours?
I think the drama came from an initial misread by you of honest information as WIFOM then tunnel vision and confirmation bias all the way to here. God you guys need a scQQby but...
Your either going to have to start again and ask can two people be that rad... yeah.. heres a role claim
HD HD HD HD / HD HD HD HD / HD HD HD HD / CSIRO W/E Town , and that's the puppy
Can they be that pro real town... yeah
have you nearly burnt them yeah
Do you really understand how little they were asking for? and the commitment they made to get it?
Its your world, but an anti scQQby do approach concerns me when I presume you do have an eject button.
Would someone anyone care to posit a strategy where two such rad townies from one ip could ever approach you without looking rad scum? It does run in families as does towness. How much frickin honesty upfront is just enough to not WIFOM you and how would they know. whois somone is powerful tool that role claim was a long time ago. TL had that if they were curious. Did you invest town in effort an internet scavenger hunt?
If you desire to protect what town position you have is so strong there is no way for rad real town to get in... if thats who you are looking for that hard for opens questions for you to ask you.
Now look at.... did I rage, it did I have purpose in making noise.
if you ran the scavenger hunt somewhere quit close is my response to troll after troll troll. which never mind...
Enough of my concerns
On December 07 2012 11:56 Kickstart wrote:
@Axle
Given the Day1 lynch of Oats turning out to be a successful scum hit, and then Cheese being night killed during night 1, who do you feel is most likely to be the second scum.
Sorry yes I see no point in that kind hypothetical talk, I will only talk about this game.
Story so far:
Ok So Lynch D1 SCUM is Lynched on DOC is nkd.
Well, hypothetically as me, I would pick my second top read in this game as Yam. Due to the case I made case earlier.
We might as well start worrying now about what if Yam claims Blue. has no corroberating evidence of intention
of what a real true town player would have been doing. Well as that confirms intent not to be town, without explanation compatible with the estimated skill level of the player (BTW I can explain how brand new rad skilled newb can do that if you like) (as I happen to have rather rad skills and I am a 50 year old newb to mafia, while that different I could explain the other)
Once he claims blue he probably ought be able to tell us of some
of the pro town information he has been feretting away. Not having any screams of fake claim, and throws a persons mind
into a frazzle trying to work out WTF. No intent disproves blue, or is against play to win the little game, no counter (except for the fsking mess) proves town? AFK happens, suddenly your all flippin too, with stupid daft reasons. why are you flippin with lies. Oh yeah its your neat strategy to catch dumb scum, who believe lies so by telling various lies you filter through the scum candidates. Howver as no clever scum can flip claiming was scum baiting, perhaps LAL was right.
If then other strong town reads start saying lies by talking about the setups they have seen, but not what arad skilled newb reads the rules to say... and this is why LAL is thing,
but if your an actual rad young newb suddenly going no its all lies to the entire town who have both cred and experience is daft.
And if your young rads experienced enough in just how social stuff works, you dont even have to be mafia player, to know you with certainty cant swim upstream in bullshitstorm about the role setups.
At that point playing to the best of your ability pro town is STFU.
It also does that to clever scum who know not to expose their hand. so its null. This is the problem with lies all the way down. This is the problem with Dunning Kruger.
I often get my best reads from the first things person does are they trying to tell me stuff they are going to have to stick to.
and what is it they actually want for the stake they are laying down. Knowledge is power and when you have enough of the former, you realise that just brings responsibility. As such blue roles must be payed responsibly not just sat on.
So lets move on to, to where any real WTFman comes from.
if Yamato claimed blue and there was no counter claim made, we have to assume in this setup he was really blue.
That is unless of course is was stated the game was possibly open, but once again the strong town players
says all sorts of stuff, again the skilled young newb town might shut down. Dunning Kruger is a fearful foe.
100% town players are worth a bit even when their blue powers are not a lot of practical use in the specific situation.
Any real town player who actually gets lynched in that case is just fine with it. I would be, I would be even if there was much younger and it happened to them. Thats how you play town. Play for self is XXXXXX.
However even real town player if say they had invested many hours as town collecting reads and stuff unlike the not real town blue, who just said i am blue and ......., well its going to be frustrating in way you don't believe to have lots of pro town work that you dont get to dump if your AFK and town back flips on you. What if town had said hey man if we have to flip as you cant make MYLO, what are your reads just in case? Probably roses and tulips all the way down.
If there was any possibility of the AFK being real because say you had town read on them, and you didnt rely? on meta information you got from outside the game..... then the correct actual town play was any real town who had some reads, but knew their play that game had been sub par so the rest of town, didn't have strong feel for them. In order to keep access to the AFKs reads one of them might even say pick me or pick someone. Cos I can give you the reads i have, and we fsked up missed our chance to get his.
Even though if you read a game that hard there were so many statements about when he would and wouldn't be there they were WIFOM. Yet still town players were not cooperating to maximise what input he could have despite his rigid AFK cycle.
Well for while after a mess like that where all that work was wasted... some things might happen. Real town would put it behind them though.
However if that happened two games in row, and the older newb was looking at going down the the same sewer of of WTF man just play like town if your town, work with me within the real world limitation I have. The choices could rapidly come down to play and suffer and never play again or just not play in the first place, and knowing your town and rad town at that
that would suck big time. At that you might stamp your foot once. Then back off. Once there is some noise and the case gets examined, yeah what you did was wrong and it will get your wrist slapped. But hey man as described above
seriously real town, really will take one for the team. And I tell you having just run this through in head, my actual town read on you guys is not going up. I cant let it go down on that though, even good town can make moves that kill a real town player. It surely is just mistakes.
Now there is question a mans gotta ask himself do we feel lucky. What if its real.
Was there now an apparent reason for the, old dog, to try so fsking hard to say its ok its ok look I am saying who I am and attracting attention
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Someone earlier invited me to play my hardest.
My hardest is quite slow play. This one wont be my hardest but it is probably more intelligible to most.
There a rule it is Play to Win (implicitly for you team)
When you implement that different people will balance different kinds of wins differently.
I seek comments from the audience of which win condition evaluation function are in this fora acceptable.
That is in fact the root of the problem.
I will just do some town versions
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win (Town expedient now)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win this and future games (Town LAL)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win and you be alive. (Town greedy)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win and you be alive and leading. (Town show pony)
You can play such Sum wins are worth more to you than town once because I think they are often epic. and have lots of nyah nyah value.
You can play such that you get the most wins for the least effort expended (Town/scum cheap shots)
There is probably a boundary on the cheap shot version in that you cant piss people off with abuse.
Although this would also endorse the all blues are likely to be lazy up until they flip, forcing us to lynch working blues who cant keep their powder dry or get lynched AFK, or through some paranoia vetting system to keep liars out.
You can do anything except verbally badger people in game.
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EBWOP There a rule it is Play to Win (implicitly for you team?)
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Blood realative under same roof. See profile
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On December 07 2012 14:50 AxleGreaser wrote:
Someone earlier invited me to play my hardest.
My hardest is quite slow play. This one wont be my hardest but it is probably more intelligible to most.
There a rule it is Play to Win (implicitly for you team)
When you implement that different people will balance different kinds of wins differently.
I seek comments from the audience of which win condition evaluation function are in this fora acceptable.
That is in fact the root of the problem.
I will just do some town versions
which of these are acceptable individual definitions of
The a rule it is Play to Win? (implicitly for your team)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win (Town expedient now)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win this and future games (Town LAL)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win this time and you be alive. (Town greedy)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win and you be alive and leading. (Town show pony)
You can play such Sum wins are worth more to you than town once because I think they are often epic. and have lots of nyah nyah value. This will lead to play your town role suboptimally for the game you are playing to setup an epic win for the other team later.
^^^^^^^^^^ Is that play to win
There are even more categories but that ought give me a feel for the place.
You can play such that you get the most wins for the least effort expended (Town/scum cheap shots)
There is probably a boundary on the cheap shot version in that you cant piss people off with abuse.
Although this would also endorse the all blues are likely to be lazy up until they flip, forcing us to lynch working blues who cant keep their powder dry or get lynched AFK, or through some paranoia vetting system to keep liars out.
You can do anything except verbally badger people in game.
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Yeah I solved for how not to have this happen again.
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I'm sorry for doubting you back then kick.
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On December 07 2012 15:08 Rad wrote:
I'm sorry for doubting you back then kick.
Rofl
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I have no clue what he is on about atm
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Axle you are putting all your energy into the wrong things. You need to evaluate THIS thread, and the players in THIS game, and find the SCUM. Anything else is unimportant and unhelpful.
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On December 07 2012 15:02 AxleGreaser wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2012 14:50 AxleGreaser wrote:
Someone earlier invited me to play my hardest.
My hardest is quite slow play. This one wont be my hardest but it is probably more intelligible to most.
There a rule it is Play to Win (implicitly for you team)
When you implement that different people will balance different kinds of wins differently.
I seek comments from the audience of which win condition evaluation function are in this fora acceptable.
That is in fact the root of the problem.
I will just do some town versions
which of these are acceptable individual definitions of
The a rule it is Play to Win? (implicitly for your team)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win (Town expedient now)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win this and future games (Town LAL)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win this time and you be alive. (Town greedy)
You can play such that the team you are in this time will win and you be alive and leading. (Town show pony)
You can play such Sum wins are worth more to you than town once because I think they are often epic. and have lots of nyah nyah value. This will lead to play your town role suboptimally for the game you are playing to setup an epic win for the other team later.
^^^^^^^^^^ Is that play to win
There are even more categories but that ought give me a feel for the place.
You can play such that you get the most wins for the least effort expended (Town/scum cheap shots)
There is probably a boundary on the cheap shot version in that you cant piss people off with abuse.
Although this would also endorse the all blues are likely to be lazy up until they flip, forcing us to lynch working blues who cant keep their powder dry or get lynched AFK, or through some paranoia vetting system to keep liars out.
You can do anything except verbally badger people in game.
To help me do that I do need to be able to ask questions, which you then either answer or dont.
I draw your attention again to these
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EPT
