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On December 12 2012 13:01 Hapahauli wrote:Regarding DjoI'm not sure if anyone's brought it up, but I watched Palmar's video and was really surprised he skipped over one of his posts in his analysis: Show nested quote +On December 10 2012 16:28 Djodref wrote:
@ WBG
If I take your word for jay and assume that you are not scum yourself, I'd say that I don't have huge concerns about anyone at the beginning of this game. Why did you single out Palmar among all the people who didn't participate yet ?
What about Bluelight, Z-Bo, Munk-E, Vivax and Tunkeg ? All of them scum by elimination ? The underlined bit is a very strange thing for a townie to say. Townies are a naturally suspicious folk, and a line of reasoning that assumes someone is not scum really goes against this mentality. Of course I'm not going to judge him on one post, but if there's anyone I could call a scum-read right now, it would be Djo.
Hapa! Hello my friend. Let's have a friendly chat. What do you make of my assessment on wbg/vivax?
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On December 12 2012 13:09 Hapahauli wrote:
Last bit was @ Thrawn of course, but you just had to go and snipe it all didn't ya Z-Bo?
I doubt you will get sniped as much as me this game. You are replacing a rather scummy fellow, so I'm especially concerned with your views. Take your time, tis a lovely evening.
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OK, here's the deal with the townies.
debears is pretty much obv town. No reasoning here.
Palmar is fairly town to me. I wouldn't say he's as obvious as debears, because he did throw suspicion on adam in his video. Since adam gave no good reason for him to feasibly change his views, he'd be forced to bus on day one. This is far-sighted, so for now let's stick with Palmar being town.
Thrawn. Townie fellow, no need to worry about him for now.
Tunkeg is most likely town. Much to my frustration, I feel I was wrong about him. I see no reason for him to go ahead and give away his scum-buddy (maybe two of them, if I'm right about bugs) in his death reads.
Clarity is also giving me some townie vibes. His openness about going for another scumread when he went after bluelight seemed modest to me. The scum explanation would be "omg omg I have to find another case that sticks so my scumbuddy with 5+ votes doesn't get lynched" , and I find that unlikely.
And uh, that's it I think. Next up is some of the players I haven't really given too much attention this game, mainly VE, BL and uh jay. I'll also have to reassess Djo. I was fairly confident he was scum day one, and opted to go for tunkeg, because a tunkeg-scum Djo-town theory made more sense. But now that I'm fairly sure that tunkeg is town, he suddenly looks juicy again.
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On December 12 2012 13:22 Hapahauli wrote:
I'll try to catch up on the last 20 pages tonight. This is my sanity break from the contracts final I took yesterday, so I'm eager to forget everything from the semester I learned =O
Regarding your cases:
I rather like the vivax one. The quotes you laid out look like he's trying to jump on the bandwagon without looking bad. Also, voting someone because they liked something that grush said is... well... lol.
I'm less convinced by the one on WBG. Hesitancy to lynch someone =/= scum. I think it was one of the newbie games you were in (where a bunch of townies were hesitant to jump on kush's scumslip) that should give you my thoughts here. Bugs play so far seems to be a general hesitancy to lynch someone, then being afk for a while, then coming back and being lost. It's a bit alarming, but I don't think it's damning by any measure.
By contrast, vivax's mentality seems to be more "scummy" on his vote. He goes from a soft defense to being very sure and comfortable with his vote. That behavior IMO is more along the lines of scum-mentality.
It's not just hesitancy to read someone. I feel you responded kinda fast and didn't really go over the case.
I'm more interested in the subtleness in which he included adam in his lists, which is in complete contrast with the mindset that he disliked adam as a lynch target earlier on, especially without any occurrences in the thread to suggest this weird change.
He also disappeared into a time that I presume would have been fairly risky for scum to participate in.
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debears. Admit I'm right on wbg/vivax. Admit it. Gogogo
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On December 12 2012 13:43 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 13:34 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 12 2012 13:22 Hapahauli wrote:
I'll try to catch up on the last 20 pages tonight. This is my sanity break from the contracts final I took yesterday, so I'm eager to forget everything from the semester I learned =O
Regarding your cases:
I rather like the vivax one. The quotes you laid out look like he's trying to jump on the bandwagon without looking bad. Also, voting someone because they liked something that grush said is... well... lol.
I'm less convinced by the one on WBG. Hesitancy to lynch someone =/= scum. I think it was one of the newbie games you were in (where a bunch of townies were hesitant to jump on kush's scumslip) that should give you my thoughts here. Bugs play so far seems to be a general hesitancy to lynch someone, then being afk for a while, then coming back and being lost. It's a bit alarming, but I don't think it's damning by any measure.
By contrast, vivax's mentality seems to be more "scummy" on his vote. He goes from a soft defense to being very sure and comfortable with his vote. That behavior IMO is more along the lines of scum-mentality. It's not just hesitancy to read someone. I feel you responded kinda fast and didn't really go over the case. I'm more interested in the subtleness in which he included adam in his lists, which is in complete contrast with the mindset that he disliked adam as a lynch target earlier on, especially without any occurrences in the thread to suggest this weird change. He also disappeared into a time that I presume would have been fairly risky for scum to participate in. It's rather hard in my position to understand such "subtlety" since I haven't been in the thread. I'll catch up, read his filter, and get back to you. My initial impressions are as previously stated though.
You do that. I'm sleepy as fuck and tired of reading so I'll f5 here until anyone wants to join me and have a friendly fireside chat.
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@jay
I'm tempted to agree with you, but in the first part there, where does Djo say that he wouldn't mind lynching Adam in the post you quoted? It might be that I'm sleepy, but I couldn't find it.
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Aight I'm going to bed, way too sleepy. Gnight folks.
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Bugs, I feel this needs some clarification:
On December 12 2012 18:18 wherebugsgo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2012 18:01 Hapahauli wrote:On December 12 2012 17:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
my play is clean, so I'm scum...the fuck?
I could play like a retard, but no one likes when I do that. "Clean" in the sense that you're not taking any risks. You're not going out of your way to comment on multiple players or make additional reads - you stick to a case on a player who looks like a lynch-bait candidate throughout D1. The reality is that I hold vets to a higher standard. Your play doesn't read like a wild and engaged townie - it looks like scum trying to blend in. If you're town, it's on you to prove it in the next few days. How have I blended in when I made probably the strongest counter case to Adam? I didn't have to do that. If I was scum and wanted to blend in I could've just bandwagoned on what was clearly the easiest lynch of the day and taken massive town cred by bussing Adam. Instead I chose to pose an alternative because I actually took a stance on someone other than Adam. Everyone found him scummy. I found someone else scummier. And, in fact, Tunkeg's play is still quite erratic. Secondly, the thing I absolutely hate about this type of jubjub logic is that it only makes sense when you don't think. Why are people attacking me? Because I was the only notable person who didn't hardline against Adam. This is confirmation bias. We saw a scum flip, and now everyone thinks that anyone who was late to the wagon or considered killing other people is scum. Sure, that's normal when there's resistance, but when there was never any resistance to begin with usually it's the people who sheep without reason who are the scum bussing. I.E. VE. I actually had concrete reasons to be voting Adam and I was one of the first players to make my opinion on him clear. The fact that I ultimately chose not to vote him is actually not scummy, because trust me, I'm pretty fucking lazy as scum. So, think about it for a second. You think I'm scum and you apparently hold me to a higher standard than other players. So, what exactly have I done that is not up to your standards? I'm not taking risks? You don't need to take risks to play town! In fact, taking risks is full on retarded as town. I don't think anyone on this forum understands how I operate as scum, seeing as everyone and their mother accuses me of wildly different things as both alignments. I'm notoriously "hard to read" because my play doesn't boil down to "lazy as scum and active as town" unlike the vast majority of other players.
I understand that it's bad play to simply try to find scum by making these easy "he didn't want to vote Adam" associations. Too many people (including myself) have such behavior that can easily and mistakenly be associated to be made out as scum. My deal with you is a bit different. My main problem was how you casually included Adam as a possible "lynch possibility", when in your previous posts you don't show that you really thought Adam was a good lynch.
For instance, regarding the bolded part. You said two things here:
- You had concrete reasons to vote Adam.
- You were the first one to make your opinion on him clear.
Now, as I see it, the first thing is wrong, and the second one is really my issue with you.
First off, you did not have concrete reasons to vote Adam, or you didn't show them. The transition I'm most concerned off (which was my initial case against you) is how these two posts:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#481
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#484
Actually turn into you casually including his name:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=384953¤tpage=25#496
Nowhere else in your filter do you show concrete reasons to vote for Adam.
In addition, you say you were the first to make your opinion on Adam clear. This is true. You clearly stated earlier that you did not want to lynch him. This was evident in those two posts above, and in which I have already gone over in my case.
However, I can't figure out for the life of me what you suddenly added him as a top suspect on your list.
Now, in your response to it:
On December 12 2012 15:21 wherebugsgo wrote:
No Z-Boson, I'm not scum. That's fairly evident given the fact that I continually said Adam was my #2 read to Tunkeg. I just wanted to kill Tunkeg over Adam and I would say that again given how I perceived Palmar.
There were two reasons I was unsure of lynching Adam and none about Tunkeg. Reason 1 for Adam was that he pointed out something about miller claims that thrawn had said in a previous game. I didn't find that very scummy but it was a fairly minor point of consideration. The other thing was relatively unrelated to adam's behavior but rather how easy it was to lynch him, particularly given Palmar's really strange comments re: his priority of reads.
If Palmar really did make his video without knowing his alignment, then he would be pretty hard pressed to bus his teammate Adam if he ended up seeing he was scum after saying all that shit about his posts. That's one reason I'm wary of his other reads. If his other reads are shit, then chances are strong he's not town.
And it is clearly obvious Adam was bussed, seeing as there was almost no resistance to the lynch. Everyone wanted him to die except perhaps Clarity (and I'd consider him town)
You say that you repeatedly said why Adam was your top suspect. This is not what I'm putting in question. What I'm putting in question is that your posts prior to including Adam are not compatible with you actually adding him in your list.
This is the most part of why I think you are scum, because I think that you felt the need to casually include Adam in your suspect list because you knew he was scum.
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@bugs
I've read them dude. Your meta explanation came at a later point in time, which is not what I'm referring to,
You gave reasoning for voting Adam MUCH later than when you included him in your list. I feel that you are trying to pass yourself off as having actually been clear on your stance on Adam all along, which is not the case.
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Anyways, I've made my case and still feel strongly about it.
Gonna pursue other reads cause this isn't going anywhere.
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@Clarity
Regarding your BL case.
I don't really think it was a bus from him.
I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway".
It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy.
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On December 13 2012 08:21 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:19 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Clarity
Regarding your BL case.
I don't really think it was a bus from him.
I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway".
It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy. What? He's suspicious for making a list and going AWOL, but you don't view him as scummy? Is this really purely based on the fact he voted Adam?
...Didn't I just say that I don't feel it was a bus from him?
On December 13 2012 08:19 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Clarity
Regarding your BL case.
I don't really think it was a bus from him.
I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway".
It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy.
Hmm.. it seems I did.
With regards to his lurkiness, and since he's a vet, I'm not gonna make that call.
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On December 13 2012 08:35 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:33 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 08:21 marvellosity wrote:On December 13 2012 08:19 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Clarity
Regarding your BL case.
I don't really think it was a bus from him.
I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway".
It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy. What? He's suspicious for making a list and going AWOL, but you don't view him as scummy? Is this really purely based on the fact he voted Adam? ...Didn't I just say that I don't feel it was a bus from him? On December 13 2012 08:19 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Clarity
Regarding your BL case.
I don't really think it was a bus from him.
I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway".
It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy. Hmm.. it seems I did. With regards to his lurkiness, and since he's a vet, I'm not gonna make that call. you don't wanna make the call that he's scummy, but he is 'suspicious' in your words. What would make him scummy to you?
What kinda question is this? He'll be scummy when I see scum mentality from him.
You have played with him before, right? Do you think he's scum? Do you think he bussed Adam?
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On December 13 2012 08:44 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:39 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 08:35 marvellosity wrote:On December 13 2012 08:33 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 08:21 marvellosity wrote:On December 13 2012 08:19 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Clarity
Regarding your BL case.
I don't really think it was a bus from him.
I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway".
It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy. What? He's suspicious for making a list and going AWOL, but you don't view him as scummy? Is this really purely based on the fact he voted Adam? ...Didn't I just say that I don't feel it was a bus from him? On December 13 2012 08:19 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Clarity
Regarding your BL case.
I don't really think it was a bus from him.
I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway".
It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy. Hmm.. it seems I did. With regards to his lurkiness, and since he's a vet, I'm not gonna make that call. you don't wanna make the call that he's scummy, but he is 'suspicious' in your words. What would make him scummy to you? What kinda question is this? He'll be scummy when I see scum mentality from him. You have played with him before, right? Do you think he's scum? Do you think he bussed Adam? What marv is getting at is that BL entered the thread spreading suspicion on four players, and never mentioned them again when he comfortably parked his vote on Adam. That seems like scum mentality to me. But what makes you think BL is town?
He's a vet dude. If he normally doesn't do that kind of shit, vets who have played with him before will pick up on it. If he was some regular player everyone is played with before, I would be a bit more weary.
For the third fucking time, I don't think he bussed.
His non-chalant ("bleh. Adam is getting lynched anyways so vote Adam") attitude towards his vote on Adam kinda tells me this. I feel he'd over-explain rather than vote.
It's a small tell, but I think there are much bigger fish to fry.
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On December 13 2012 08:47 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 08:39 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 08:35 marvellosity wrote:On December 13 2012 08:33 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 08:21 marvellosity wrote:On December 13 2012 08:19 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Clarity
Regarding your BL case.
I don't really think it was a bus from him.
I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway".
It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy. What? He's suspicious for making a list and going AWOL, but you don't view him as scummy? Is this really purely based on the fact he voted Adam? ...Didn't I just say that I don't feel it was a bus from him? On December 13 2012 08:19 Z-BosoN wrote:
@Clarity
Regarding your BL case.
I don't really think it was a bus from him.
I feel scum would rather give reasons and over-explain in his situation rather than just saying "He's gonna get lynched anyway".
It is suspicious how he posted a list then went Awol for a pretty long time though. I'm not familiar with his meta to say if that's common for him, but I don't view bl as scummy. Hmm.. it seems I did. With regards to his lurkiness, and since he's a vet, I'm not gonna make that call. you don't wanna make the call that he's scummy, but he is 'suspicious' in your words. What would make him scummy to you? What kinda question is this? He'll be scummy when I see scum mentality from him. You have played with him before, right? Do you think he's scum? Do you think he bussed Adam? I'm just curious that you call him suspicious, but you won't call him scummy. What is suspicious if not scummy? Why call someone suspicious then? My views on BL are well documented enough.
It is suspicious behavior, which, in my view, is supplanted by the fact that I don't think he bussed.
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On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip.
Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped?
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On December 13 2012 11:53 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2012 11:51 Z-BosoN wrote:On December 13 2012 10:17 Hapahauli wrote:
Between Bluelightz and Tunkeg for me atm. Tunkeg's martyr post doesn't look too hot right now given WBG's flip. Hapa, can you elaborate? Why do you think that Tunkeg looks worse now that WBG has flipped? Part of the reason I was leaning town on him was because I agreed with his read on WBG (martyr post). Since it was wrong though, there's not much else in that post of substance. Some obvious town reads, obvious scum read in Adam, seemingly easy case on Jay... it looks far less townie than it first appeared to me.
So if he had given wbg a town read, would he have been looking better atm?
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On December 13 2012 11:54 Hapahauli wrote:
Also Z-Bo, who's your top scumread now in the face of the WBG flip? Still Vivax?
No, tbh I don't think vivax is scum anymore. Despite his weird-as-fuck vote on Adam, the rest of his play feels to me like he is involved. Jay isn't looking too hot, and neither is Djo. VE is also someone I have to look more carefully, as well as yourself.
Point a gun to my head and I'd say jay.
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EPT
