EPTChrono Trigger Mafia - Page 4
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On November 28 2012 08:01 goodkarma wrote: This case is pretty bad. The singlemindedness with which you push hopeless without any thought for how he could have town motivations for his actions is pretty suspicious... what are you talking about, what singlemindedness? this is like the first time i've talked about hopeless... i mean, disagree with my case if you want, but how am i being singleminded or scummy here? | ||
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strongandbig
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strongandbig
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On November 28 2012 08:29 Djodref wrote: I'm not here I have to go to work. I was catching up with the thread after my morning shower and stuff... I have never claimed anything. I lied about the usage an ability that I could still have  (hint: I cannot shoot anybody in fact) and I've managed to force iamp and Adam to participate. I really liked both their reactions and I'm not wooried about them anymore.It's not the case for S&B and VE. In our last game, S&B started to do some real townie stuff when he was on the verge of being lynched. My view on him right now is that he can and have to do better if he is town. But I don't have a strong scum read on him. Null for me atm. My problem is that I don't know how to force them to participate more. And, seriously, you can totally trust Dieno to me. This ability is for real. I didn't breadcrumb but you can see some hint in my filter for my D2 save. there's honestly nothing you can do, i will just be participating more my lack of participation was due to going on a trip to visit my old roommate in england, where i didn't have reliable internet access | ||
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strongandbig
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On November 28 2012 08:51 goodkarma wrote: I'll make a definitive case on you yet today. Just don't lurk too hard in the meantime. k | ||
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strongandbig
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it's just that the way hopeless responded to having a red check on him (back when a lot of people thought acro was town) didn't seem to me like how a townie would respond | ||
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strongandbig
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what do you think of the early stuff on hapa like, i'm aware it wasn't very well expressed, but do you think hapa was being suspiciously focused on distractions and things that weren't relevant to alignments, or do you think i'm suffering from confirmation bias | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
On November 28 2012 10:03 iamperfection wrote: And i cant believe you said something like this im gonna have to go through your entire filter when i have time lol wow | ||
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strongandbig
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you claiming third party? | ||
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strongandbig
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maybe it's pun-triggered | ||
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
I chose phagga! below are some quotes and summaries of stuff from his filter, along with my analysis. My conclusion is: phagga is probably town, but I'm not confident enough to agree with putting him on a party yet. Most of the stuff I found in his filter made me lean townie; the doubts come from what's missing. I'll put that at the end of this post. On November 21 2012 16:12 phagga wrote: I like Sandroba's plan, his logic is sound. However, I find it dangerous to derive a town read from it, nothing is stopping scum to put up this plan to get themselfes elected. Why is everyone asking for town reads? I understand that the mechanics are working differently, but everyone just spreading their townreads like the flu will only make it easier for scum to decide who to shoot at night. People like Keirathi and me who have no desire in being elected D1 should not be giving out any townreads, instead we can actually scum hunt in the traditional way and establish ourselfes as town this way. I even think that most candidates should not be throwing out their town reads unless they seem to be a serious candidate (meaning several people have voiced interest in voting that person). this is good, sandroba's plan actually was good but phagga went against calling him town because of it, that's what a smart townie should've done. then there's a bunch of questions, most of them are pretty insightful so they don't read to me like someone trying to fake activity, but they're also something that scum could easily do so just because they're the right questions to be asking doesn't make them a town tell. He has a little list of reads, just on three players; usually I don't like list posts, but this is a weird game and the need to find a party makes me think read list posts are less bad than normal; plus the reads all make sense to me given the information we had at the time. On November 22 2012 18:55 phagga wrote: I have not read all the posts yet, I just arrived at the point where Syllo addresses Sandro regarding unanswered questions here. I have not named a candidate yet because I do not have a clear town read on one yet. I was leaning on Sandroba the whole time, and I also tend to think that Syllo is town. However, I only have a very rough idea on how these guys play scum, and I don't trust them enough yet. Also I don't like it at all that they are almost uncontested. As someone said earlier, mafia should have an interest at getting this spot too, and somehow I would expect some heavier resistance. Unless Sand and Syllo are both scum, of course, but Orcams Razor probably says no. Kita was always in the back of my head because I liked his opening post. I was aware that he went MIA for a while, but I still thought that his candidature was serious. So when I realized that barely anyone talked about him, I thought I'd use Acros post to see if I could get some info on what people thought about him. Also, as I wrote earlier, I do think more competition is needed, and since Toad is out of the race, that leaves Kita as the most promising competitor to Sandro/Syllo. Regarding his proposed team: Dieno has claimed after I talked about the possibility to be 3rd party, and the way is behaving I think I could meanwhile accept him in the party, although there are other players that I would prefer. Prom is the one I feel really unsure about. I hope Kita thinks that one over. Nevertheless, for the time being, he gets my vote. ##Vote Kitaman Goodkarmas candidature comes surprising, and I first liked his approach for the candidature. However, I voiced my suspicion of him yesterday, and his choice of Sandro for the team looks like a joke, as you can see in my questions to him. I will be very busy today. I should be in the thread for sure in the last 2-3 hours before deadline. Hopefully I will be able to interact some more earlier. This makes me lean town on him. He'd positioned himself earlier so that he could reasonably join sandroba's campaign at any time without looking suspicious, by saying "i like sandroba's ideas but it's too early to have a town read on him," but he doesn't take that opportunity to try and boost sandroba's momentum. Then there's some more questions. I especially like how he follows up with the questions when they get ignored, that's something that scum can also do but it makes me feel more townie on him. + Show Spoiler + On November 24 2012 02:57 phagga wrote: Ok, now that I've gone through Goodkarma's filter, I know why I thought he might be scum. When you look through his filter, literally the first half of it he almost only talks about what town should do, what people should do (with the one exception of his very first ingame post). There is a ton of stuff that just does not bring town anywhere. He looks like he is contributing, but nothing is really helping town. Also, the tone of his posts seems so neutral, as if he was emotionally completely detached. This is probably what others described as "constructed", for me it is just strange because it seems he does not care at all. The best example for this is this post: He says he is upset, and calls it a scandal, which means it must have pissed him off. Bbut the tone of the post does not feel this way, it rather sounds as if he actually does not care. Then, this post is an improvement. I actually liked that post from him, even if it was a bit long and overexplaining. But then he posted that he would have Sandroba on his team, and I was really confused by that. Afterwards, it seems back to the old ways for him. When I look at his posts from today, it is mostly defending himself, a vote and post to sandroba, that's it. Tl;dr: Too much fluff, a single scum read on the Bus of the day, looks emotionally detached. Now, it is possible that this is his normal way of playing/writing, I am not familiar with his meta. However, for the above reasons, Goodkarma stands on the scummy side for me. Goodkarma: I see you have voted Sandroba. Can you name me up to three other people you also find suspicious, and why? I don't need a whole case, a short explanation what you think is scum motivated in their play would suffice. On November 26 2012 07:27 phagga wrote: Ok, I've updated my read on GK and I would no longer lynch him. When the D2 lynch came to a close, he asked people to consolidate on either sandroba or Toad. He tried to shut down any discussion that would bring in new candidates. considering that Sandro is confirmed scum and Toad is very very likely scum, I don't see the mafia motivation behind is behaviour. also, the way he acts D3 seems more pro-town than on the first day. All in all, I put GK on null for the moment. This could be interpreted either as scummy or as townie behavior. Scummy: "he makes a weak case but doesn't vote on it, then backs off his case when it doesn't get traction." Townie: "He makes a decent 'exploratory case' where he explains his suspicions to get people talking about the person he's suspicious of, but later he's willing to update his reads based on new information and new actions taken by people." Personally, I lean towards the townie interpretation, but that's influenced by what I've seen up above in his filter. I wanted to make sure to point this out though, it seems like the most serious "case" or scumread that phagga has made in the thread so it should be a focal point on reading him. This is what actually made me wonder a bit. the analysis phagga does on goodkarma is pretty much the only deep analysis he does of any player. the fact that phagga backed off of goodkarma isn't necessarily scummy, the ability to get out of a tunnel is important for a townie to have. however, phagga doesn't appear to replace his goodkarma read with other scumreads or deep analysis of other players. Additionally, phagga does a lot of questioning and following up and pushing his questions, but there's very little analysis or explanation of how he likes peoples' responses to those questions and how they respond. That's why I am reluctant to support phagga being on the party, in the theoretical situation where he was being considered - even though the things in his filter seem town to me, it feels like there is a component missing. I definitely don't want to lynch phagga or to have vigs shoot him, however. Now, phagga I have a couple of questions for you:
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strongandbig
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First off, I took 100 damage last night. Whoever shot me, please to cut it out asap. I think I was a pretty unlikely target for a scum hit, so that makes me think it was goodkarma or some other dumb townie shooting me instead of trying to focus fire and take out toad. If you shot me, please claim it and explain why you thought shooting me was a better move than shooting toad so we could actually have a debate and use our lynch today to find a non-confirmed scum. On November 29 2012 12:01 Promethelax wrote: It doesn't have to change your vote. I also think that voting Toad is the best play right now. Unless we can hit him for more later and can lynch confirmed scum this cycle anyways. Does his claimed damage taken make sense to you? That is do you have more than 774 max HP? According to this chrono trigger boss guide, Queen Zeal has more hp than almost any other boss - except for the "rust tyrano" (which is supposed to be easy but have a lot of hp, apparently) and Lavos. Since I see no reason not to trust acro's rolecheck right now, I would definitely believe that toad has a buttload of hp. That said, as I mentioned above, I think focus firing toad was the right move last night. Occam's razor suggests that he is probably lying about being bulletproof. Still, I guess there's an argument to be made about whether we want to use our lynch today on someone other than toad, since drazerk apparently already did a boatload of damage to toad and it should be easier to kill him than a full hp scum. But given that toad survived the night, I think we should KISS (<3 marv) and kill the scum in front of us. ##vote: toad On November 29 2012 12:13 Djodref wrote: Oh, and if anyone is doubting my save of Dieno, I would like them to say it now or shut up forever. Can I also be considered almost confirmed town for it ? Just saying this so you can send me on a party anytime whithout too much doubts now. This makes sense to me, i doubt scum would use up so much damage potential just to get djodref into a party. It's not like he becomes auto confirmed, if the party fails when he's in it he'll still get suspicion just like anyone in that position would. (by "that position" i mean, if the first time they are in a party that party fails aka goodkarma). On November 29 2012 15:08 Promethelax wrote: Has anyone ever seen Zbo be so...under the radar? I guess he has exams but he also didn't say that pre-game and, along with VE, SnB and Risk his lurking is worrying me. It isn't something I expect from any of the three of them, though I guess Risk being in a mason qt makes sense for this. You four: I'd like more from you. Like I straight up had forgotten SnB was playing this game when he posted earlier. Nothing any of these four players have done has stuck with me which is not what I would expect. They are the kind of players whom I expect more from. Does anyone have any insight the could share? Sorry bro. I had internet troubles up until Monday. For the last couple of days I think I've been posting about as much as I usually do in games during the work week, this game has just been super active (making me look bad lol). Anyway, I'll be talking about goodkarma in the next post, but I don't want us to lose sight of hopeless1der, who I still think looks quite bad for his response to the parity check on him out of thechronicler. Syllogism and Promethelax, I don't think you guys have recently commented on that (if I've missed it sorry) - what do you think about hopeless1der's alignment at the moment? Also phagga, I'm still interested in your read on Kita. I think he's a tough player to read this game and your reasoning about him would help make me more certain about my read on you. If you just don't have time to go through his filter in depth because he's not a scum read and therefore not a priority, then I'm in no position to criticize you, but in that case I would still like a few words on what makes him a non-scumread. | ||
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strongandbig
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On November 29 2012 12:43 iamperfection wrote: also i think proms case is very strong and coupled with the fact of the mission failure and his shit lurker shoot list i think gk is scum this is a pretty good summary, the case is good even without taking the mission failure into account. I don't like GK's response to a few points in the case. I'm not going to quote the whole back-and-forth here, because I really don't have time to dig through the quote nesting. I'll just post what I don't like about the response:
On the other hand, I don't think the phagga association thing is a big deal even if GK is scum, I could see a scum easily doing that with a townie (since they know their read will be right). On November 29 2012 13:59 Promethelax wrote: Okay, you've replied. I've explained my points. I'm going to stop helping you shit up the thread now. Other players: I'd like your comments on GK's claim and what that does/doesn't do to exonerate him. I'd also like those of you who haven't weighed in on it yet to tell me what you think of him from my case. This is an interesting point. I'm inclined to believe that GK did actually shoot drazerk, it seems unlikely that scum would claim this and then just shout "what now counterclaim me bro". (or if GK is scum, it could've been anyone on the scum team.) From the early damage reports, it seems possible that the scum team was spreading their kp around pretty liberally, and given drazerk's claimed abilities it's possible they put some of it on him if they thought he was sk. Alternatively, it's possible that GK has a vig-ish role and chose town targets that looked scummy to set up a fakeclaim, that wouldn't be surprising. So I really don't see how this claim clears GK. At first I was going to say "it probably means that GK and drazerk aren't scum buddies because then they wouldn't know where that damage came from and they would have to risk a counterclaim," but then I realized that if they are scum buddies it's entirely possible and likely that drazerk just lied about taking that damage. So I don't see how this claim clears anybody. At the moment I have been decently convinced that GK is scum, but I'm going to vote toad because he's claimed scum in the thread and we should kill the scum right in front of us. | ||
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strongandbig
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On November 29 2012 22:33 Oatsmaster wrote: Strongandbig, what were your night actions last night? I targeted you with my ability It worked, you should be harder to kill from now on I'd rather not say exactly how my targeting works but I will if I have to | ||
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On November 30 2012 07:04 Clarity_nl wrote: You have no reason to lie if you actually got healed. But if you are scum you have reason to lie about taking damage. And if you did not take damage you would not get notified about heals, does that make sense? why would scum lie about taking damage | ||
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On November 30 2012 02:53 Acrofales wrote: Seems easy enough: don't take Dieno, don't take Keirathi. Syllo, Oats, Clarity and Chronicler seems like a pretty good party. Chronicler gets to use his 1-shot ability and if one of the members gets killed, that still leaves 3 townie players who have not mentioned any low HSM shenanigans. Syllo, you agree? Get your party PM ready, and don't you dare herpaderp it up like a certain extinct reptile. ##unvote ##Party Leader Syllo this makes sense don't we want to be spreading out the leadership awards though? I thought we already talked about that. ##vote: clarity for party leader still voting toad for lynch | ||
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On November 30 2012 07:27 syllogism wrote: Because taking damage is seen towny and they didn't think they could get caught? Why does mafia ever lie? oh I thought you meant he was saying he took less damage than he actually did. Yeah I can see why mafia would lie and say they took extra damage, sure. | ||
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On November 30 2012 07:28 Hapahauli wrote: Clarity. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=251#5017 Read. Reply. That took me way too long to type to put up with this shit. hapa i agree that phagga hasn't done much analysis but i have a different interpretation of his day 1 voting and stuff than you do, I outlined it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=223#4450 read reply shit-put-up-with etcetera | ||
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strongandbig
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phagga's change on cavejohnson is 100% explainable by finding out that he's drazerk and you still haven't addressed my counter-interpretation of phagga's stance on sandro, i find him perfectly reasonable. i don't agree with your reasoning on hopeless1der, plus you just totally ignored his response to the check on him. and there are very strong arguments made against goodkarma being town as well, which you've totally ignored. like, i know people usually think that "pushing your reads" is a town trait but you're doing it so blindly and ardently that it's basically just derailing the thread. and what happened to your terrible promethelax case, you just dropped it for no reason basically i think you are scum hapahauli - you've got a terrible case, you're pushing it really hard when no one else is really paying attention, and you did the same thing before on promethelax, but you're ignoring other legitimate cases for terrible reasons as well. you're being "involved with the thread" but you're doing it on your own terms only and not towns | ||
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strongandbig
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then he unvoted him when we found out he is drazerk totally logical | ||
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