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On November 27 2012 12:13 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 12:06 Hapahauli wrote:
And damnit someone comment on the Prom stuff I've been posting. Surely I'm not the only one who's finding him scummy as shit right now. There was no lynch. I don't particularly see a problem with your whole "He wasn't pushing his scum read" thing when he had no avenue for getting you killed. There are a lot of people that aren't pushing scum reads and you're just singling him out because he said he didn't want you in the party. FWIW, I have a very slight town read on Prom. Not enough to bet on it or anything, but that's the way I'm leaning right now. And I still wouldn't ever lynch him over toad, and someone out of the whole TC/Acro/Hopeless debacle.
Well of course I wouldn't lynch him over toad, but I'd strongly consider lynching him next.
I understand that there was "no avenue" to kill me, but the real issue here is that
1) He called me a top scumread and didn't ever push his suspicions. He was apparently comfortable keeping this to himself and keeping it as quiet as possible? When you call someone a top scumread as town, what is your first instinct? To not do anything? No way.
2) There's basically nothing else in his filter resembling scumhunting. He pokes, prods, and asks a bunch of questions. But he has no cases, barely any analysis, and really barely anything of substance beyond his defenses.
On November 27 2012 12:14 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 12:11 Hapahauli wrote:On November 27 2012 12:08 Promethelax wrote:
My read didn't matter. You were scummy and I did not use my ability to protect you. Now, when you tried to put yourself in a party I opposed you. Similar to when, in a normal game, we would propose lynch candidates in this game we oppose quest members. I oppose you for quest member.
When we had a chance to lynch I was more confidant in Sand being scum than you being scum.
Your insistence that scum would not want to push themselves onto the party because 1 for 1 is dumb and you know it.
re-reading your filter I don't think I can make a strong case on you Hapa. The thing is I also can't make a strong town case for you. I'm battling my usual Hapa=scum mentality but I can't decide which way I've erred. Either way you are not my top scum read right now. Toad is scum. After Toad there are a few people I would am looking at: you, Syllo, Zbo and the TC/Hope/Acro triangle. ROFL wow. You push me a scummy and not-town the entire game, and then the second I confront you to come up with acutal analysis, you completely change your mind and cop out. look, if I was scum I'd cherry pick your filter and build a damn good case. I'm giving you my honest read. Which is: confused.
You can't build one cause there isn't a case to be built.
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I am not building one because the one I made didn't convince me. there are things in your favour and things that point to you being scum. I am not going to make a case that I'm not convinced of (though I tried to in ACME) my gut read on you is anti-town and there are things to back that up. My case comes out null though and therefore I am not going to push you.
Do you really think that I am such a bad scum player that when pressured I would make no case? Go look at XIX, I can make one hell of a convincing case as scum. There is nothing to be gained by not making one if I am scum.
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On November 27 2012 12:24 Promethelax wrote:
I am not building one because the one I made didn't convince me. there are things in your favour and things that point to you being scum. I am not going to make a case that I'm not convinced of (though I tried to in ACME) my gut read on you is anti-town and there are things to back that up. My case comes out null though and therefore I am not going to push you.
Do you really think that I am such a bad scum player that when pressured I would make no case? Go look at XIX, I can make one hell of a convincing case as scum. There is nothing to be gained by not making one if I am scum.
Apparently yes.
I really don't care what you say you could have done. Your actions right now are scummy as hell, regardless of what "alternatives" you point to. You've made no cases. You've barely scumhunted. When I confronted you about your read on me, you immediately backtracked and had nothing to show for it.
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@Hapa:
I find it strange that rather than asking me to expand on my town read on Prom, you decided it would be a better idea to repeat to me your reasonings that he is scum. Like I wasn't able to read them 15 posts ago.
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watch out Kier, you've been passively accusing him all game. That probably makes you scum and stuff.
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On November 27 2012 12:31 Keirathi wrote:
@Hapa:
I find it strange that rather than asking me to expand on my town read on Prom, you decided it would be a better idea to repeat to me your reasonings that he is scum. Like I wasn't able to read them 15 posts ago.
I re-explained it because it seems like you missed the point. Apparently you didn't, read my post, and still think he's "slightly-town." Really didn't think that was possible.
Needless, it should be implied that I pretty strongly disagree with your read. So do elaborate.
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On November 27 2012 12:32 Promethelax wrote:
watch out Kier, you've been passively accusing him all game. That probably makes you scum and stuff.
If he'd been doing it for 12 pages, and called me his top scumread w/out making a case, I'd agree.
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On November 27 2012 12:35 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 12:32 Promethelax wrote:
watch out Kier, you've been passively accusing him all game. That probably makes you scum and stuff. If he'd been doing it for 12 pages, and called me his top scumread w/out making a case, I'd agree.
man, definite article and indefinite article mean totally different things. You were one of my top scum reads (ergo: "a top scumread). Looking back through your filter instead of looking at how your play feels I have more of a null read on you. As I mentioned there are good reasons to point to your scumminess and good reasons which point towards your townieness.
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On November 27 2012 05:53 Z-BosoN wrote:
Regarding SnB: Marv gave me no reason to think that he was town, I´ve played quite a few games with him and his game up to that point is not how he plays as town. Yet SnB comes guns-all-blazing saying marv is town.
My logical reason for finding him scum is: "how is SnB so confident that marv is town, when there is nothing from his play to support this?".
I really can´t see why you view this as "illogical".
But I kinda backtracked later in the post because I´ve played once with him being town, and once with him being scum, and to me his meta says a different story than what I was suggesting. Ergo, ask marv, who´s played a ton with him.
Also, @marv, is there any game where he was town and pinned you as scum? I´m assuming no, because I don´t believe he can accurately judge your alignment, especially that early in the game. Correct me if I´m wrong.
I backed off him because marv confirmed that he is in fact playing with his meta read, and he wouldn´t lie about that either as scum or as town.
You say some of my day one posts are just summaries of what is happening in the game, whilst neglecting my entire gameplay ever since that point. I have some "summary" posts, and I have some posts actually trying to figure shit out. This point is insanely weak imo.
You, for instance, just narrated my push on sandroba, without specifying why it makes me scum.
Your case boils down to:
-I cant believe that S&B has a town read on marv.
-I find S&B's play this game to look like his town game.
Therefore, scum.
You cant see why that is illogical? There is literally nothing in your case that even comes close to showing why S&B is scum or has any scum motivation at all. He lurked a bit, threw out a single town read and you're trying to hang him for it.
Yes, I do say that some of your posts are summaries and neglect the rest. I am not going to quote every single one of your posts, only the posts that I take an issue with for being padded.
The last sentence is deflecting, but ill indulge you. Your repeated campaigning for sandroba to be elected on the basis of him having an easy meta to read, while continually postulating that you have no idea about his meta is completely ass-backwards. If this was one of your main reasons for electing someone as the party leader, why do you claim to not know what you're talking about? It just makes no damn sense from a town perspective, but I can think of one from a scum perspective - an 'out' if sandroba ever flips scum, you can just claim ignorance.
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As far as today's mission goes, I like Keirathi for leader but ill see who he puts forward as his 4th party member before I cast my vote.
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It's mostly meta things that Prom has done as town and scum.
For one, the day 2 "gambit" that secured sandroba's lynch (at least for me). Town Prom loves pulling silly gambits that have the potential to backfire horrendously (just look at his two gambits in ACME; they were terrible and got townies lynched [no offense prom]). The whole "sandroba: why did you target syllo" is definitely something town Prom would do.
And the reason I don't think scum Prom would have done it is because of his scum play in newbie XIX. He played all-or-nothing for the entire game, and by the end was entirely linked with both of his partners. I'm sure he's a better player now than he was then, and sandro could have said "Hey Prom, bus me!" in scum QT, but my gut is still that that isn't the way he would have done it.
All-in-all, minor town read. I think your points mostly are a factor of being in a game that hasn't had much in the way of lynching rather than a necessarily scum mindset. There are tons of people who haven't made cases or pushed anyone. You're just confirmation bias'ing again him, imo.
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On November 27 2012 12:13 Promethelax wrote:
well now that I go look at it objectively yes. Through the whole game I've felt that he was scummy. There are a few things I can point out and say they are super scummy (trying to take leader position over 'confirmed' town) but there are a few that I can point to and go 'oooooooooooh so townie' (opposition to Toad early).
Now I'm null, or go back and forth wanting to hang him and hug him my heart and my head can't agree, but want to look deeper into him after some more flips give me some context.
@Prom
Trying to take the leader position over a "confirmed" town is not super scummy at all. The "confirmed" town is never 100% confirmed. The only thing town players know are their own alignment so it's natural for them to propose themselves as a party leader. I trust myself more than anyone esle here. The fact you consider this a super scummy lead me to think that you didn't think this candidature issue with a town mentality.
Also, even if you were confidant than sandro was scum during our second cycle, nothing was preventing you from building a case and put some heavy pressure on Hapa, something you didn't do.
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I think we've decided that our Party leader is going to be one of our previous party members. Oats cannot lead. That leaves:
- Syllogism
- Keirathi
- Dienosore
- Clarity_nl
This could very well be the party that runs today's event.
Only one of Dienosore and Oatsmaster can be on the party due to setup restrictions.
Oatsmaster and Syllogism have already led a party before and have items to show for it.
I believe the leaders receive an item upon a successful mission completion. Either we try to pool resources to one player (i.e. syllo today) or we divvy up the spoils among as many players as possible while maintaining a successful party. I don't like the idea of powering up one player for a number of reasons:
Scum might be able to steal items
Items may be lost upon death
The player may in fact be scum
I'd prefer syllo and oats not be in the party at all because they currently hold items, but if we can't identify a 4th for the team, I'd pick dieno over oats and have syllo step in to fill the last spot.
My choice for party leader is one of Keir, Dieno and Clarity. As I've already stated, I'd like to be included in the party. If any of them are inclined to give me the 4th spot, I'd be delighted and they will receive my vote. In the meantime, I'm fine sheeping the current votelead on Keir.
##Vote: Keirathi
Also, I hereby state that I won't put a last-minute voteswitch onto Toad today, in case anyone suspects shenanigans.
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On November 27 2012 12:49 Hopeless1der wrote:I think we've decided that our Party leader is going to be one of our previous party members. Oats cannot lead. That leaves: - Syllogism
- Keirathi
- Dienosore
- Clarity_nl
This could very well be the party that runs today's event. Only one of Dienosore and Oatsmaster can be on the party due to setup restrictions. Oatsmaster and Syllogism have already led a party before and have items to show for it. I believe the leaders receive an item upon a successful mission completion. Either we try to pool resources to one player (i.e. syllo today) or we divvy up the spoils among as many players as possible while maintaining a successful party. I don't like the idea of powering up one player for a number of reasons: Scum might be able to steal items Items may be lost upon death The player may in fact be scum I'd prefer syllo and oats not be in the party at all because they currently hold items, but if we can't identify a 4th for the team, I'd pick dieno over oats and have syllo step in to fill the last spot. My choice for party leader is one of Keir, Dieno and Clarity. As I've already stated, I'd like to be included in the party. If any of them are inclined to give me the 4th spot, I'd be delighted and they will receive my vote. In the meantime, I'm fine sheeping the current votelead on Keir. ##Vote: KeirathiAlso, I hereby state that I won't put a last-minute voteswitch onto Toad today, in case anyone suspects shenanigans.
Care to explain the bolded?
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I'll sleep on it and see if it's just me being hot-headed or whatnot. Though I really don't understand your read at all.
On November 27 2012 12:42 Keirathi wrote:
It's mostly meta things that Prom has done as town and scum.
For one, the day 2 "gambit" that secured sandroba's lynch (at least for me). Town Prom loves pulling silly gambits that have the potential to backfire horrendously (just look at his two gambits in ACME; they were terrible and got townies lynched [no offense prom]). The whole "sandroba: why did you target syllo" is definitely something town Prom would do.
Yes, but are these unique to his town play? In a couple of obs QT conversations, I've seen him talk about how much he loved exciting plays and "gambits" in scum-games as well. This is not alignment indicative.
And the reason I don't think scum Prom would have done it is because of his scum play in newbie XIX. He played all-or-nothing for the entire game, and by the end was entirely linked with both of his partners. I'm sure he's a better player now than he was then, and sandro could have said "Hey Prom, bus me!" in scum QT, but my gut is still that that isn't the way he would have done it.
I'm not getting what you're saying here. Prom did vote Sandro, but very late and only after a bunch of players lead the charge on Sandro.
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On November 27 2012 12:38 Promethelax wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 12:35 Hapahauli wrote:On November 27 2012 12:32 Promethelax wrote:
watch out Kier, you've been passively accusing him all game. That probably makes you scum and stuff. If he'd been doing it for 12 pages, and called me his top scumread w/out making a case, I'd agree. man, definite article and indefinite article mean totally different things. You were one of my top scum reads (ergo: "a top scumread). Looking back through your filter instead of looking at how your play feels I have more of a null read on you. As I mentioned there are good reasons to point to your scumminess and good reasons which point towards your townieness.
You still have given none of those reasons. So give me a breakdown of your attitude on me. Why null as opposed to alternatives?
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On November 27 2012 12:51 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 27 2012 12:49 Hopeless1der wrote:I think we've decided that our Party leader is going to be one of our previous party members. Oats cannot lead. That leaves: - Syllogism
- Keirathi
- Dienosore
- Clarity_nl
This could very well be the party that runs today's event. Only one of Dienosore and Oatsmaster can be on the party due to setup restrictions. Oatsmaster and Syllogism have already led a party before and have items to show for it. I believe the leaders receive an item upon a successful mission completion. Either we try to pool resources to one player (i.e. syllo today) or we divvy up the spoils among as many players as possible while maintaining a successful party. I don't like the idea of powering up one player for a number of reasons: Scum might be able to steal items Items may be lost upon death The player may in fact be scum I'd prefer syllo and oats not be in the party at all because they currently hold items, but if we can't identify a 4th for the team, I'd pick dieno over oats and have syllo step in to fill the last spot. My choice for party leader is one of Keir, Dieno and Clarity. As I've already stated, I'd like to be included in the party. If any of them are inclined to give me the 4th spot, I'd be delighted and they will receive my vote. In the meantime, I'm fine sheeping the current votelead on Keir. ##Vote: KeirathiAlso, I hereby state that I won't put a last-minute voteswitch onto Toad today, in case anyone suspects shenanigans. Care to explain the bolded?
Hmm...yeah that was a brainfart. Unless the event itself can steal items, there's no reason to exclude them. That line of thought should only have prevented them from being leader.
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On November 27 2012 12:51 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +And the reason I don't think scum Prom would have done it is because of his scum play in newbie XIX. He played all-or-nothing for the entire game, and by the end was entirely linked with both of his partners. I'm sure he's a better player now than he was then, and sandro could have said "Hey Prom, bus me!" in scum QT, but my gut is still that that isn't the way he would have done it. I'm not getting what you're saying here. Prom did vote Sandro, but very late and only after a bunch of players lead the charge on Sandro.
I'm saying that if Prom is scum, I don't think he would have used that kind of claim to bus sandro. He would have just made a case and bussed, or maybe even just voted. But his first instinct is to protect his teamates, not out them to the thread.
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Anyways, I'm going to bed. See you all tomorrow, with probably another 100+ posts to catch up on.
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Wait do you mean "bussing" or do you mean "opposing" the Sandro campaign? Because I really don't understand what you're saying unless you're talking about this post:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382922¤tpage=40#795
I just stumbled across it and it does give me pause. I'm not sure what motivation Prom would have about tearing down Sandro's campaign at this stage of the game. Sandro's campaign wasn't doing all that bad at this point.
On a side note, I really need to go back and look over the votes from D1. That's something that's been pretty absent from our analysis thusfar.
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EPT
