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Newbie Mini Mafia XXX
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Rad
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need more pre-game banter to base my cases on | ||
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On November 03 2012 00:50 Alsn wrote: Don't worry Cheese, knowing Rad he will jail the Doctor who was about to save a townie. <3 LOL as long as there's damage to be done to town, I'll find a way. | ||
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Glad to be doing this again, and really happy that it's a lot of the same players. Lynch lurkers. Let's get that straight this time. (as a note, if there's a clear scum, obviously we lynch them over an unknown lurker, but I do not intend to go for another so-so lynch over a lurker again) Don't lurk, thanks!  I don't think we'll have any problems with that this time though, considering the players. We've all learned our lesson on this topic I think. I should typically be able to be active for a few hours before lynches with the time bumped back an hour from the last game's time. I will be pretty active this weekend, but I'm also a huge sc2 fan and mlg will be taking most of my attention. Definitely going to be reading/thinking/posting on downtime and/or boring matchups. | ||
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We don't want lurkers. That's the reason for the policy lynch. Force people to not lurk. We want active conversation from EVERYONE as that's best for town. | ||
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On November 03 2012 10:43 Djodref wrote: For everyone, here is the compilation of the games I've played so far with the corresponding filters. It's very good that we know each others but I guess that you didn't really research my meta last game. So here you go ! -Newbie Mini Mafia XXVIII as Cop -Looney Lynching Mini Mafia as mafia pardoner -Newbie Mini Mafia XXIX as VT @ Rad The only potential lurkers that we have in this game are daoud and maybe Obzy (but it doesn't look like it). My problem with your policy is that it is directed towards these players in this game. What we have to be wary of is active lurking (refer to the mafiaQT in the previous game) and people blending in. Do you see anyone else possibly lurking ? Most people in this game already agreed about the lurker policy at the end of last game. So yeah, my statements were more directed towards obzy. He responded to them and we discussed, so I feel that was a fine move on my end. Hopefully da0ud doesn't have some crazy RL activity this time and he'll be able to be less of an active lurker this game. | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:04 Djodref wrote: @ Rad That's my problem with a lurker policy this game, I think that it can be used only against daoud or Obzy (maybe sylverfire). I think it would be much better to call directly these players for lurking rather agreeing on a policy which could be a perfect excuse for the mafia to push a mislynch on them, assuming that they are town. It's a small game and if you have a problem with the activity level of anyone, you can call them on it, no need for a policy. @Djo If no one lurks, the lurker policy has done its job. That's all it's there to do, stop people from lurking. Nothing more, nothing less. Let's move on shall we? | ||
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On November 03 2012 10:20 Alsn wrote: I like it how you say 99% of the time, yet I know from reading XXIX's scum QT that you were away on purpose for the last lynch. I also bet you haven't yet participated in anywhere near 100 lynches, so technically that's a lie. Although, I probably should have paid more attention to what you actually voted for that game as opposed to whether or not you were actually around so I'll let that one slide. I'm Alsn, I'll be around for flip-time generally, but they happen at 1 am local time so don't expect me to stick around for too long afterwards. Prior games include XXV(VT), XXVIII(VT) and XXIX also as VT. And yea, if given the choice between weak scum reads and hardcore lurkers, I'll hunt down and feed the hardcore lurker gone off cheesecake first chance I get. That being said, I'm off to lurk(also known as sleep, for those of you concerned with base things such as human metabolic function). @Alsn Don't make the "lie" too big of a deal. People throw out random percentages all the time. Also, using red there was a bit over-dramatic, don't you think? @debears I don't see much of a good reason to push him on this issue anymore. TBH I was a bit frustrated with you not showing up at night 1 to help talk me down from shooting kush, but then again, if you were there, you might have pushed me into it (like dandel did) ^^ I get a sense of that same frustration from alsn right now, whether it's contrived or real. Because in the end, 99% is a straight up wrong statistic, and it's best if you don't use completely bs stats in trying to prove a point. | ||
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On November 03 2012 11:24 Djodref wrote: The policy prevents mafia players from lurking but it doesn't stop anyone from being inactive. And the policy is the best excuse ever for mafia to lynch an inactive town player with IRL issues. This game is full of active players and small enough to call directly a player on active lurking, blending in or pure lurking. I don't think we need the policy and I'm going to get very suspicious on players lynching according to the policy only. You're over-thinking this. KISS - keep it simple stupid Let's lynch lurkers so we can guarantee only active players and increase our chance to get good reads. Also, let's move on from this debate as it's cluttering up the thread. | ||
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Not sure, something useful I'm sure debears will think of something if he's shooting for a filter size that only you could possibly achieve. | ||
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I don't really know what to say about it. When I used it last game, I meant it, clearly, as I was town, and that was my very first game. So, I was just being honest. I think it's an interesting thing to bring up though, because had it not been brought up last game, I would have used it much more, and it probably would have hurt more than helped. Since it was brought up at the beginning, I at least attempted not to use it, and only used it when I felt it was the only explanation. So I would agree, attempt to stay away from the newbie card if at all possible. | ||
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It wasn't confusing, at all... | ||
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I don't think there's too much mafia motivation in throwing out 1 joke this early in day 1, especially with us all coming from the other game and it being a pretty friendly environment at the moment. I'd consider it the pre-game bleeding into the real game. I'm sure we will all start hating each other soon enough. | ||
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I don't remember too many jokes from cheese throughout last game. Just pregame. Oh, and his "Sandy" response to the hurricane question. Anyway, it doesn't matter, I get a null read from his joke. @djo Why are you bringing up the idea of a discussion on plurality lynch? That's not even in our control, is it? Host said plurality, so it's plurality, end of story, unless I'm missing something? | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:20 debears wrote: So if he's scum and he didn't joke in the game (which he did) while joking in the qt a lot, wouldnt you say he is being more genuine, which is a townie trait? Why are defending cheese's personality this game? We all get he's a funny guy and likes to joke. We only have 1 game from him to go on, and a scum QT. He could be acting different here for a variety of reasons. Why do you want us to get a town read on him just from being more genuine this game? Town motivation: Be more open and honest and townie. Scum motivation: Everyone knows his real personality now from the scum QT, he needs to switch it up or we'll be suspicious. It's a null tell. Why are you pushing the idea that it's a town tell? | ||
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On November 03 2012 12:28 Djodref wrote: @ Rad It was sarcastic. I wanted us to discuss how we should use the mechanics of the plurality lynch at our advantage in this game but I think that the time for discussing this king of thing is over. I wanted Cheesecake to understand, if he is town, that I could also spark some discussion with this FoS. You're being internet sarcastic (read: confusing) right after giving cheese a hard time for being obviously joking (read: not confusing)? | ||
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That's a great point and I want to reemphasize it. @Obzy If you're town, please disregard any suggestions about you being useless so far. Just keep attempting to be useful and you'll get the hang of it. You don't have to post as much as debears, djo, or even myself to be useful so don't get discouraged. However, don't hold back and give your input on things when you have input as it'll be helpful to town if we get some more input from you. Also I see debears has directed some questions at you so here's a chance to open up a bit. | ||
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On October 25 2012 13:54 sylverfyre wrote: Whoa what? I don't follow your line of reasoning that he's pushing for policy lynching lurkers over a scumread. When he said, early on: FOS: debears. Explain more clearly where your scum tell is? Ok now I'm actually going to bed. I don't know what to think about da0ud because he's in (I think I remember) China? Which should be a good posting time right now but who knows what he's up to? | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:47 debears wrote: Yeah. That case is in no way saying omg he's scum. It's more of light pressure to get him to state some views, be more active in this. However, Rad, what I would like to know is that, although you are obviously following the thread in the shadows, you aren't posting to much. Why is that? To quote myself: On November 03 2012 10:23 Rad wrote: I will be pretty active this weekend, but I'm also a huge sc2 fan and mlg will be taking most of my attention. Definitely going to be reading/thinking/posting on downtime and/or boring matchups. I don't see much value in chiming in on every little argument. When I have a good read on something being a bad argument, I'll chime in and try to stop it (as I have been doing), or if it's a good argument, I'll try to help push it (not many of these so far, but some I'm letting go because conversation is good). I feel I've contributed a good amount so far and with it being 1am here, I'm trying to enjoy my night as well as contribute here and there. | ||
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On November 03 2012 14:10 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I made this exact mistake last game as scum, "Djo is not off the hook" thing. He wants to ensure that his suspicions for me are known. As town, he would not have to make this statement because he would have faith that we already know that. I'd like to point out that throughout the last newbie game, I kept pointing out that djo was still on my radar. I don't consider this a scum tell. Perhaps bad town, perhaps not, but certainly not necessarily scum tell (at least at this level, no idea if it is at a higher level). I considered it a "keep the pressure on" type move last game. | ||
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On November 03 2012 14:41 Obzy wrote: I'm most interested in da0ud and sylver, just because they haven't said anything at all. Not necessarily implying they are scum, just that non-posting is absolutely impossible to read. Just wanted to point out real quick, Obzy, that this is the reason we were pushing the lurker policy lynch earlier. Hopefully you understand it a bit better now, when people lurk hardcore it's impossible to get a good read on them and thus becomes a coin flip for town (or even heavily distracting real cases, which can be even worse). I don't think we'll have an issue though. We have a long time before lynch and I think both will come through with some useful contributions (considering how last game went). If the issue remains, we lynch (scum or useless townie, both reasonable lynches at d1). And as I refresh before I post, there's sylver! | ||
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If you have time, check our last game (newbie XXIX) and watch debears d1. He ends up scum in that game, but he's "town leader" pretty much the whole game due to his d1 activities (very aggressive, very townie-like in that he's creating discussion). That probably has some influence on sylver's vote. | ||
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Tomorrow and Sunday I will be trying to figure out some sort of a case for sure. I made a lot of terrible reads my first game (newbie XXIX) that lead to dead townies, so I'm going to be trying to approach it differently this time (more like how I was approaching the game near end of XXIX, not that I expect you to know what I mean by that, but everyone else in this game might understand the differences). | ||
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On November 03 2012 18:43 Clarity_nl wrote: Rad: Null. He's being more careful than last game, lurking a bit more. He mentioned he would be more careful, but not in pregame, he did this after the role PMs were sent. He also seems really invested in helping Obzy out as he's the newest, the only one here who wasn't in XXIX. @ Rad Why the interest in Obzy? Are you going to use MLG as an excuse at any point this weekend? I felt a bit of inig coming through in obzy. Overwhelmed, confused, but potentially useful to town. I didn't want to see him shy away due to how fast the conversations were coming and going here. I wanted him to open up and let his thoughts be known. Yes, I'll be watching MLG pretty much every minute it's on until it's done on Sunday. I do that for every MLG I get a chance to watch. My fiance is working all day today so all I got is MLG and this newbie mafia to pay attention to :D Might play a game here and there (ns2), but I expect a lot of my time today to be dedicated towards this game while watching MLG. As for my being more careful, it's based strictly on how I changed over the course of last game. I based my cases on a lot of stupid things and confirmation bias but couldn't ever realize it until after townies started flipping when I was sure they were scum. I want to avoid that this time and at least have some more solid reasoning when I decide to center in on someone. | ||
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On November 04 2012 00:03 Djodref wrote: @ debears I think that cop and jailkeeper are powerful roles, we might not have both of them though. Vig is not so good in newbie games (could you confirm this one, Rad?). Please also note that a framer couldn't use his power on his mafia partner. Anyway, I don't think the setup is imbalanced from a role point of view and I was surprised that you were only mentioning the medic. I'm not totally satisfied with your explanations but it was a minor thing. I'm more interested in sylverfire and daoud right now. Can the framer frame himself ? Regarding your bolded question to me, what do you want me to confirm? Define "good." Good for town winning or good for me having a blast? Cause I had a blast, even though I got the wrong shot, it was so fun trying to figure out who to use it on, and I submitted the kill request the very last second I could (probably why the night post took longer, I bet thrawn had to rewrite it). Had I gotten a scum with the shot, who knows what that would have done to me, hell it might have pushed my confirmation bias even further. Certainly I would have centered in on cheese 100% if kush flipped scum that game. Anyway, "good for town"? I have no idea. Good for getting me super interested last game? You bet. Also, it taught me some lessons I would not have learned otherwise. | ||
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On November 04 2012 00:20 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Of course I was meaning good for town The risk of having of town player killed by a vigilante is greater in newbie games so I don't think this role really benefits the town. I wanted to take last game as an example so that's why I was mentioning you. Anyway, let's drop this right now and focus and more important matters. I'm urging you to answer debears and give your input on the latest events in the thread @Djo I intend to answer debears. It's a question that requires some research and thought. Let's try to make this game cleaner in terms of the filters. Give people time to answer questions rather than restate that a question is waiting to be answered. It's of no use to town. If you find someone has skipped answering a question for a long period of time, that's when you can jump in and point it out. | ||
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On November 04 2012 00:10 debears wrote: Rad, alot of early d1 cases will end up being stupid in hindsight. Hapa, a good player, even stated so in GSL III I believe. That doesn't excuse you from scumhunting. I understand getting Obsy to post to avoid having him lurk, but you seemed too focused on it. What are your thoughts on Dau0d/syler/Djo from the last couple of pages? I haven't said I don't plan on scumhunting. What gives you that impression? You're coming to a false conclusion on what I've been talking about. Concerning obzy, what do you mean I seemed too focused on it? I tried to help him understand my stance on lurkers because he had some issues with it. Then I had to jump in and make sure he didn't get super demotivated because YOU were calling his posts useless and worthless. What does a town want a newbie town to do? Learn how to play the game and be useful to town. What does a scum want a newbie town to do? Feel scared at the thought of being terrible at the game, back off, say nothing out of fear. How exactly are you helping town by talking shit to the new guy at the beginning of d1? | ||
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On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote: On Obsy Obsy has been around the thread. What I have found is that he seems to be actively lurking. Notice above post. Asking a pretty much useless question. It's newbie town/scum tell, so it's a null tell (*ONE) He has a few one-liners like the above. Mostly, his posts do not take a strong stance and his opinions seem to be easily swayed. Again newbie town/scum tell. (*TWO) I don't like this post. At all. Trying to come up with excuses to not be posting. Sure the thread is moving pretty decently (score one for town), but it's nothing huge and pretty easy to follow so far imo. Here he acts confused. He asks questions without answering them himself or even really attempting to answer them himself. Who have a tough time contributing early? Usually scum because 1) They are afraid to post and put themselves out there since they are guilty and know so 2) They know the players they are accusing are town and they can't actually find real evidence to use However, I admit this is also a newbie town trait. (*THREE) Honestly, this post is just absolutely worthless. It has no actual input. Says nothing about the current happenings of the thread. Summary: Obsy has been actively lurking and blending in His posts are indicative of newbie town/scum however they are looking slightly scummy at this point (*WHAT?) @Obsy 1) Defend yourself against these points 2) Go ask for some coaching help (It'll help you improve more quickly) Of debear's 5 points on Obzy, 3 of them he admits could be newbie town (so null read), and 2 of them he comes to no conclusion. Then he SOMEHOW suddenly comes to the conclusion that obzy's looking slightly scummy? WHAT? Also, at the point of your post, it's the beginning hours of d1. Seriously, active lurking and blending concerns already? If he's newbie town, he has no fucking idea what he's supposed to do at this point. Yet debears is throwing out serious concerns as if they're legitimate at that point in the game. Not only does this set of "evidence" of obzy's "slight scuminess" not actually, at any point, suggest scum over newbie town, but it directly attacks obzy's motivation and confidence. What better way to shut down a newbie town than to attempt to trash him from the start? On November 04 2012 00:54 debears wrote: You are way overblowing my post on obsy. 1) I only said useless, not worthless. Stop putting words in my mouth 2) Yeah it's cool to encourage him, but you have to still scumhunt 3) You said that you were going to make a case later today and be more passive. How is that case going to come about if you aren't actively trying to find scum in the thread? I was in no way talking shit to him. I was stating my views on him. 1 sentence and 1 word in that sentence is hardly talking shit. In no way was it an, 'OH HES DEFINITELY SCUM GUYS'. It was a "you're posts are slightly scummy, defend yourself and contribute". Why are you overblowing my post? #1 oh, really?: On November 03 2012 13:40 debears wrote: Honestly, this post is just absolutely worthless. It has no actual input. Says nothing about the current happenings of the thread. #2 & #3 I'm scumhunting, right now, like I said I would You're right, you weren't saying OH HES DEFINITELY SCUM GUYS. You came to a stupid conclusion that he's slightly scummy based on a bunch of null tells. More importantly, you were trying to shut him down from the beginning. What town motivation is there to make the new guy feel useless and worthless? None. It's a scum motivation. FoS debears | ||
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On November 04 2012 01:16 debears wrote: @Rad I concede on the worthless point. Also, there are two ways of encouraging newbies to post 1) Pressure 2) Kindness I chose 1 initially. Notice my reaction after Obsy responds. Would you say that is talking shit to him? Pressure's fine with me. That wasn't pressure though. That was an attack on his ego and the only motivation I can see for it is to shut him down fast and create a lurker out of him (which, as you know, many of us would want to lynch). What reaction of yours to his response are you talking about? All I see is "So what is your exact read on me? Scum, slightly scum, null, slightly town, or town?" but that's just a question, not motivational or de-motivational. | ||
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On November 04 2012 01:31 debears wrote: @Rad A little bit of context for the useless and worthless words. They were used to group 3 players, not just obsy Also, why didn't I bash him for being general if I'm so set on shutting him out? Why did I ask a very specific question that is easy to answer in response? So you're saying you like to use the word useless, whether it's against a complete newbie or some other people who aren't inputing a whole lot at that point. Stop that shit. It's a de-motivational concept that's anti-town. It might be useful later in the game, but no one has proven themselves to be useless this early in the game. Why didn't you bash him for being general? Who knows. WIFOM either way if I try to figure that out. Why did you ask a very specific question that is easy to answer? Again, can't answer that without WIFOM. Maybe you wanted to spark up some discussion from him (town) or maybe you just want to look like you're being useful by giving questions that will certainly be answered (scum). | ||
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On November 04 2012 01:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: So, you say that town players shouldn't vote as a pressure move / attract suspicion to someone? You used your vote last game on Inig as vote pressure: Same with Nack: You obviously believe in vote pressure to cast suspicion from a townie perspective. This is a great catch, cheese. It's pretty damning, but to be honest, djo is someone I can see innocently contradicting himself like this, so I don't know what to think about it in the end. Remember nack's take on djo last game: On October 30 2012 06:24 nackhtjogger wrote: Go ahead, I'm actually quite curious. But be weary of the fact that this guy had this to say pre-game: Take a look at his pre-game post: Djo town / Debears town two times Imo this and the post about rocco that I've lol-ed about makes him unslippable, or rather his slips are not to be taken seriously. If he can fake being this clumsy guy who has the balls to purposefully talk so much with the specific intent of rendering the thread unreadable than I think he's a good mafia player with an imba tactic. He just happened to slip up too much this game. | ||
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At one point in last game, djo said something like "debears, you know my scum play is better than this!" Think it was right before he was lynched. What's your take on djo's past scum game and his play this game? | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:03 debears wrote: I don't really want to read much into his past scum game or his first town game, besides his general personality. HIs last game was much more indicative of how I believe he will play from now on. And I do think he is acting different off the top of my head. I'll have to research though before I can say definitively. I only bring it up at this point because you were suggesting a difference between last game (town) and this game (unknown). I feel like he's pretty confident in his scum play due to his claim about it last game. I think you could bring in some interesting insight on that point since you're the one he made that final appeal to before his lynching. His last game was, well, pretty terrible yeah? If he's town this game, I'd think he'd want to try to take things a bit differently because he even admitted last game that he thought he was scummy, and didn't really blame us for the mislynch. Differences between last game and this game probably won't say much because of that. | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:13 debears wrote: How much fluff do you actually see in my filter? Quote it and put it in a spoiler. Then take my quotes that look like they are accomplishing something. and put them in another spoiler. I want to see how much you think his fluff argument holds true. That's quite a lot of work you're asking from him and doesn't really help town much, does it? It's all going to be subjective at that point, he might say "this is fluff" and you can just argue that it's not. If we want to determine how much fluff you've given so far, we can check your filter and determine for ourselves. | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote: Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. What good does this percentage do except make some arbitrary point to argue about endlessly? "50% fluff, scum!!!" "only 25% fluff, clearly not a scum tell!" I'm trying to figure out what you expect to come from such a number. If you're scum and you want alsn to waste time coming up with this percentage, clearly you don't think it'll be damning. Nothing to come out of this number except WIFOM on both sides of the argument. | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:25 debears wrote: That is a great point. Djo why are you so concerned about not being suspicious? This one's obvious guys. You were both in last game. He was town and looked more scummy than anyone else right up to getting lynched for it. Obviously if he's town here he wouldn't want to have that happen again. This is a bad WIFOM line of questions. | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:27 debears wrote: Stop bitching and just give me a damn percentage. Holy shit. I'm not gonna freak out. I already admitted I had fluff Answer the question about what good can come from coming up with a percentage. | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:31 debears wrote: So I know where my fluff rating stands. So I can determine whether you are being genuine or not based on what I feel Your "fluff rating"? O.o Anyway, my issues were with your reasoning for wanting alsn to spend time doing something that doesn't help town at all. If you could think of reasons why it would help town, great, I was hoping to hear them from you, but you're stuck on just pushing the wasting of time to happen. Get on Alsn if you really want this huge waste of time to happen, not me (I wasn't the one pushing the fluff idea on you), but if you don't give a good answer as to why your "fluff rating" matters to town, I'll consider this you just pushing people to waste time. Again, as I stated before, if you're scum, you clearly don't think your fluff percentage will be a bad thing against you, so it's worthless to even look up at this point. | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:42 debears wrote: Because I'm town and I'm trying to figure out who's scum. Attacking someone without specific reasoning means you can back out on your argument easier later. Saying "you're posting a lot of fluff" is a very ambigious statement. Why don't you want to just give me a percentage? It's a very simple request. Off the top of your head Why do you keep asking me to? I don't give a shit one way or the other at this point about your percentage of fluff. I care that you want people to spend their time looking into your fluff percentage. If you're town, why do you want people to waste their time and dirty up the thread with this fluff percentage that wouldn't mean a damn thing (because you'd be town, so it doesn't even matter if your fluff % is 100%)? If you're scum, I can totally see the motivation in this. | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:46 debears wrote: Ok. Finally. I have 65% content in a large filter according to you, which arguably is more contribution to the thread than most. This is why the fluff argument is invalid. See my point Rad? That is all. Now, scumhunting coming He made up a number to get you to shut up about it. I'm not done with this until you give me a good reason you would want anyone to: a) Go through all your posts (large filter already), separate them into fluff and non fluff b) Come up with an exact percentage of your fluff. If you're town, you wouldn't want anyone to waste their time doing either of the above because it wouldn't matter at all. Scum hunting town is ultimately wasting time in the end. Only you know if you're town, so as town, you would want people to not scum hunt you. You don't have to worry about any fluff case alsn has until it has put you at risk of being lynched. If you're scum, it makes sense to want to make people waste their time. Explain your motivation. | ||
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On November 04 2012 02:56 Rad wrote: He made up a number to get you to shut up about it. I'm not done with this until you give me a good reason you would want anyone to: a) Go through all your posts (large filter already), separate them into fluff and non fluff b) Come up with an exact percentage of your fluff. If you're town, you wouldn't want anyone to waste their time doing either of the above because it wouldn't matter at all. Scum hunting town is ultimately wasting time in the end. Only you know if you're town, so as town, you would want people to not scum hunt you. You don't have to worry about any fluff case alsn has until it has put you at risk of being lynched. If you're scum, it makes sense to want to make people waste their time. Explain your motivation. @debears I was serious here, I need an explanation of your motivation before I can move on. I'm getting the impression from you that you're not going to reply because you switched over to sylver and stuck to it long enough now without a response to me. | ||
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On November 04 2012 04:41 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @Rad Debears aside, who do you think is acting the most suspicious? Do you think Sylver's opinion / vote on Debears is in any way scummy? I don't have any really strong reads on anyone yet. I'd say to me, so far, (debears aside) djo is most suspicious, but it's the same kind of suspicion I had last game so I'm forcing myself to not take it seriously yet. I'm fine with sylver's super early pressure vote. Because he's in the spotlight now I'll probably step back and look into him more but nothing has jumped out as scummy to me so far. Obzy feels pretty townie so far. You, cheese, seem very different from last game and I need to spend some time thinking about that. Pretty null on everyone else. | ||
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On November 04 2012 05:02 Clarity_nl wrote: Although caution can be a good thing Rad, you should be careful. If you don't have enough information to make a read make sure to get more information. It would be too easy for scum to go: "Ah, I dunno, don't really have any reads" You shouldn't be getting away with this as town. I'm curious as to any cases you might make in the next 24 hours. I get your concern. However, I haven't shown any reason for you to believe I won't be scum hunting plenty between now and end of d1. I wasn't making some sort of excuse, I was just pointing out that I don't have great reads at the moment. My scum hunting is much more based on reacting to things that happen rather than causing things to happen. Good or bad, it's been that way since beginning of last game. I think there's plenty of conversation going on right now and we're all getting more information to base our thoughts on at a good pace. | ||
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On November 04 2012 05:08 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Do you mind discussing why I'm suspicious in your eyes. I've just skimmed through your filter and I didn't see you making points against me. I must say that I've skimmed very quickly... 1. Your FoS on cheese for his scumtell joke, saying it's confusing (when it wasn't, at all), then internet sarcasming right after that (which is inherently confusing). Speaking of which, I don't think you made any comment on me pointing that out earlier. 2. You being against pressure voting when you pressure voted multiple times last game. Who cares if he didn't explicitly state that it was a pressure vote? It's a vote super early in the game and has very little chance of riding into the lynch, obviously it's a pressure vote. 3. I feel like I remember reading a statement by you near end of last game to the extent of "I see why we should lynch lurkers now. I certainly will next time! I promise!" but I can't find it... So, hell, it might not have even been you who said that, but I feel like I remember it being you. Add that with your hard stance against lurker policy lynch this game and it's just more confusion surrounding you. maybe more, I forget. Anyway, I've attempted to dismiss the above based on nack's point last game of you just making no sense sometimes. Basically you make me confused as hell and that makes it really hard to consider you anything but suspicious. I'm reluctant to look at it further at this point because it feels very similar to last game. | ||
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On November 04 2012 05:16 Clarity_nl wrote: Well yeah but.... you haven't shown me any reason that you WILL either. You mean besides my persistent scum hunting against debears? What do you want me to do, scum hunt against everyone at the same time? I try to comment on other people's arguments as they come up but I can only handle so much at once. | ||
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On November 04 2012 05:40 Djodref wrote: @ Rad 1My main goal with the sudden FoS on Cheese was to spark some discussion. I said it was confusing but it was more a pretext. The truth is that I didn't like it. Using sarcasm was not a brillaint idea but agin, I wanted to show that I was trying to spark discussion. 2.It's very important to state your reasons for your vote. Sylverfire failed to explain what he wanted from debears with his vote so I didn t see it as a pressurr vote. It turned out that it was more like a super FoS. I'm not against pressure voting but you have to state clearly what is your goal with it. Voting for casting suspicion upon someone sounds like voting for voting in my opinion. 3. It was me indeed but I don t think we need the policy for this game. The activity level is high and you can vote for anyone if you have a problem. It works better this way I think. #2 Djo, is your mind going to be blown if sylver flips green? Can you not fathom a townie making a pressure vote without explaining it? Let's say that you're right, every time you make a pressure vote you need to make sure your intention is clear. Does not doing that mean they're scum or could it just be bad townie? #3 Thanks for confirming that, it was bothering me that I couldn't find it. However, I think you've completely missed the point of the policy lynch. Please try to think hard about why town wants to agree to policy lynch early in the game. | ||
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On November 04 2012 05:46 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Hmm... @Rad What do you think about that underlined portion right there? @Cheese How about you give me your thoughts instead of asking for mine and then agreeing with me Having manipulation flashbacks of your case vs djo last game: On October 29 2012 01:39 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @Rad I'm interested on what you have to say concerning my case on Djo / on Djo in general. Nobody else has given their strong thoughts on the Djodref case with the exception of himself. | ||
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Djo's english comes across as awkward like that. I can't see it as a scum tell. Next time you're interested in pointing out something like this, you should do it rather than letting someone else do it and then agreeing with them. | ||
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Here's where you first ask me to come up with a percentage: On November 04 2012 02:20 debears wrote: Give me a percentage of fluff in my filter then. If your going to accuse me of something, at least make is specific. This "you're posting so much fluff" is doing nothing. That's your best reasoning on me so far. I never said you were posting so much fluff. I said that IF you're town, it would be a waste of time for Alsn to split up your entire filter based on fluff vs not fluff, and IF you're scum you clearly don't think that the percentage is damning so it would be a huge waste of time. I've restated it over and over again but you still haven't answered my question. You just keep wanting me to give you a percentage, which doesn't make any sense because I wasn't a part of any argument about the quality of your posts. On November 04 2012 02:56 Rad wrote: He made up a number to get you to shut up about it. I'm not done with this until you give me a good reason you would want anyone to: a) Go through all your posts (large filter already), separate them into fluff and non fluff b) Come up with an exact percentage of your fluff. If you're town, you wouldn't want anyone to waste their time doing either of the above because it wouldn't matter at all. Scum hunting town is ultimately wasting time in the end. Only you know if you're town, so as town, you would want people to not scum hunt you. You don't have to worry about any fluff case alsn has until it has put you at risk of being lynched. If you're scum, it makes sense to want to make people waste their time. Explain your motivation. Explain it already! | ||
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On November 04 2012 08:32 debears wrote: Sudden 180 on me + Show Spoiler + After my obsy post, Rad didn't immediately jump on it saying I was attacking Obsy. This is what he said On November 03 2012 13:42 Rad wrote: @Clarity That's a great point and I want to reemphasize it. @Obzy If you're town, please disregard any suggestions about you being useless so far. Just keep attempting to be useful and you'll get the hang of it. You don't have to post as much as debears, djo, or even myself to be useful so don't get discouraged. However, don't hold back and give your input on things when you have input as it'll be helpful to town if we get some more input from you. Also I see debears has directed some questions at you so here's a chance to open up a bit. In this post, he doesn't seem to think I'm attacking Obsy. He seems to think that I'm giving Obsy some questions to kick start his participation. Read the last line. Yet, he suddenly turns into this after I ask him for reads on sylver/dau0d/djo and tell him there's no reason to not scumhunt because you might make a few bad cases On November 04 2012 00:46 Rad wrote: I haven't said I don't plan on scumhunting. What gives you that impression? You're coming to a false conclusion on what I've been talking about. Concerning obzy, what do you mean I seemed too focused on it? I tried to help him understand my stance on lurkers because he had some issues with it. Then I had to jump in and make sure he didn't get super demotivated because YOU were calling his posts useless and worthless. What does a town want a newbie town to do? Learn how to play the game and be useful to town. What does a scum want a newbie town to do? Feel scared at the thought of being terrible at the game, back off, say nothing out of fear. How exactly are you helping town by talking shit to the new guy at the beginning of d1? He is super defensive. He suddenly changes his opinions on my post on obsy for literally no reason. Oh and I posted this earlier after my original obsy post. On November 03 2012 13:47 debears wrote: Yeah. That case is in no way saying omg he's scum. It's more of light pressure to get him to state some views, be more active in this. However, Rad, what I would like to know is that, although you are obviously following the thread in the shadows, you aren't posting to much. Why is that? My intent on making a post on obsy seems pretty clear to me that I was trying to get him to be active. Yet, Rad somehow interprets my post as an attack on Obsy's ego. On November 04 2012 01:27 Rad wrote: Pressure's fine with me. That wasn't pressure though. That was an attack on his ego and the only motivation I can see for it is to shut him down fast and create a lurker out of him (which, as you know, many of us would want to lynch). What reaction of yours to his response are you talking about? All I see is "So what is your exact read on me? Scum, slightly scum, null, slightly town, or town?" but that's just a question, not motivational or de-motivational. Did he forget that I told Obsy to go get coaching help? How is my original post on Obsy an "attack on his ego? At the time, I just noticed you threw a bunch of questions at obzy. I hadn't actually read through them yet. I refreshed before posting and noticed that you had questions for him, so saw it as a good point to enhance my thoughts about "just be open and helpful." When I was talking about "ignore anything about you being useless", I was actually referring to this post: On November 03 2012 13:28 debears wrote: More semantics, anyways it's useless. What do you think of Obsy's, Dau0d's, and Sylver's epic uselessness so far? When i went back to look over your posts, I ran into the long post giving obzy questions. At that point, I noticed you threw around the words useless and worthless. When I discussed it further, I believe I had forgotten about the original post (that I quoted above). To clarify, here was the order of things: 1. You call obzy, da0ud, and sylver useless. 2. I start making a post to obzy to help him rest assured that he shouldn't be discouraged by this statement. 3. Before I post, I refresh the page and see that you have questions for him. I take that as an opportunity to enhance my post by pointing out that he has an easy opportunity to answer some questions now and open up. To be honest here, at this point I'm not even thinking "debears called him useless" I'm just thinking "someone called him useless and I don't want him to get discouraged" and then I notice that you've got some questions. 4. When I revisit it and make a case about you being anti-town with your attacks, I pretty much forgot about the original post, and at that point I finally read through your post of questions, which I built the case around. | ||
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On November 04 2012 09:06 debears wrote: @Rad Was this a response to my case on you? It was a response to your last point about me. Also I had been wondering when I would bring that up again, as I said I would, and this seemed like a good time. I've now responded to your 180 point as well. I'll look into responding to the other points but I may or may not get to them tonight (going out in a few). You seemed to think your 180 point was most valid so I wanted to make sure I responded to it. I responded to your last point first because it's the one that's most frustrating to me at the moment, due to you never answering my question and insistence on me giving you a percentage. | ||
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On November 04 2012 09:23 debears wrote: @Rad When saying how much I "attacked" Obzy, did you notice this at the end of my original post about him? That seems, if anything, like the rebuttal to any of your me attacking obsy accusations. I still find it very odd that you would miss that part, even with confirmation bias Town motivation: urge people to get help from their coach so they play the game better. Scum motivation: use demeaning words like useless and worthless and then tell them they should go talk to their coach so they think they're bad at the game That piece is a null tell so don't use it as a defense on you being an anti-town with your attacks. | ||
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On November 04 2012 08:58 debears wrote: @Rad How about you read before jumping on me You think I missed this before, but I didn't. It's an invalid point for me. I don't care how much fluff/content you have. It hasn't been a concern of mine. My concern was that there's no town motivation to make another person waste time going through your posts. Only scum motivation. You're claiming there's a town motivation to help point out that your 65% is useful content, but who the hell cares? The fluff argument wasn't going anywhere, it didn't have any potential to get you lynched at that point. You wanted alsn to spend his time reading through your filters, separating fluff from good content and coming up with a percentage just so you could make that point?! If you're town, why would you want that instead of him focusing on hunting down scum? If you're scum, I GET IT. You wanted him to waste his time. You could have just as easily come out and said it if you really thought it defended you against his fluff argument. | ||
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On November 04 2012 09:57 debears wrote: When someone discredits me for a bullshit reason, I will defend myself and straighten the point. You say the fluff argument wasn't going anywhere, except that others like Alsn agreed with it. CC went so far to apologize about his fluff. Sylver's argument convinced enough people at that point that I needed to address it. Address it, yes, of course, but don't ask someone to go through your entire filter and sort it by fluff and non fluff. That's a huge waste if time if you're town. Again, if you're not, sure, you should try to get people to do that cause wow what a waste of time that would be. I'm heading out for the night. I might post more later tonight or might not until tomorrow. I should be around a lot of the day tomorrow like I was today. | ||
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What slip? Be specific, there's a lot to keep track of here. Also, don't martyr yourself. TBH that comes across as scummy as hell to me. If you're town, SURVIVE. Your survival would be of more benefit than whatever information you think your death would give, especially since we're just at d1 and everyone's just shooting around in the dark at the moment. | ||
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On November 05 2012 01:24 Djodref wrote: @ Rad I would imagine that it comes across as scummy but I want to know who is going to push for my lynch I was very close to have found the whole scumteam last game when I died. This is my motivation to propose myself as a possible lynch candidate. Here is the slip @Djodref apperently you don't understand that if you state that something's a trap, it's no longer a trap. This kind of super odd reasoning is becoming pretty regular from you. It's the same reason why you wouldn't necessarily want to tell someone your pressure vote is a pressure vote (pointing back to your issue with sylver's vote from earlier), and I can't imagine why you'd want to tell people about your trap. Has anyone ever fallen into a trap they knew of? If you can't place your trap without explaining it, maybe you should think of a different idea instead... Anyway, all I get from your "trap" is that you want to be considered super townie enough to take one for town. This could be scum motivated for normal people (though even then, a really stupid scum move I'd think). However, with how poorly we all judged you last game, I can see that as you attempting something different to gain trust because you actually don't know how to naturally gain trust. So, null tell for me in the end, I guess... | ||
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On November 04 2012 16:22 Clarity_nl wrote: /snip All the answers to the questions I asked can be used later, and I urge everyone to look at who answered their question and who hasn't. /snip You make 2 statements here. 1. The answers to your questions can be used later (I agree) 2. You urge everyone to look at who answered their questions and who hasn't (implying not answering is scummy) Considering you're going to be making a case on djo, can you explain the importance of your #2 suggestion? Seems like if you truly thought it was an important thing to note, you'd be more interested in alsn and cheese over djo and debears? With your statements, you spread suspicion across 5 different people and then center in on someone who doesn't apply to your second point. On November 04 2012 17:20 Clarity_nl wrote: Top 3 choices in my eyes are Debears, Sylver and you. As for people who haven't answered my questions: Alsn, Cheese, Sylver. | ||
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On November 05 2012 02:11 Djodref wrote: @ sylverfyre Yeah, I live and work in South Korea so you can check that it is indeed 2 am in the banner of this thread. Was it a general statement ? I thought it was a reference at you and debears going into OMGUS mode just before your post. | ||
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On November 05 2012 02:41 Djodref wrote: So it means that you have confirmation bias against me. You don't want to give me a chance to defend myself, you have already made up your mind and you want to see me dead. It means that you are now 100% convinced that I am scum (in the case where you are town) which is stupid because I am not scum and townies should always keep their mind open or that you are scum yourself. Lol djo... you realize you just said "your argument is stupid because I'm not scum." | ||
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On November 05 2012 02:54 Clarity_nl wrote: If you are town you can talk your way out of a lynch regardless. It's not like I would've posted my case an hour beforehand, right about now is when I would've posted it. I am currently working on a different case while also answering questions, so please bear with me. I will keep djo's case on hand in case I get lynched. I will post it before the deadline if it seems I'll die. Otherwise saving it for D2 As we saw from last game, djo is terrible at talking himself out of a lynch when town. If he's town this game, I can understand his frustration. Also it doesn't really make sense for you to hold off on everything unless: 1. (if you're town) You're convinced he's scum and want to make sure you hit him with everything you've got 2. (if you're scum) You want to make it really difficult for him to defend. You say you're not convinced he's scum. Why wait to hit him with everything you've got? Or at this point, why wait on posting your djo case? Your thoughts could help town make a better decision if you think you've got a good case on djo. | ||
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Since he's asleep right now, I'll answer for him. Djo is from france but living in south korea. He pointed that out last game: On October 30 2012 08:29 Djodref wrote:
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Can you each please define fluff in your own words? I need to understand exactly what you're talking about when you use that word in this context. I didn't really care about it before, I cared more about debear's request to alsn (which seemed like a huge waste of time), but now that you're both using it as part of a case on debears I need to determine if I agree or disagree with you. | ||
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Alright, I've looked back into the debears fluff concerns. I started with sylver's first post calling debears out on fluff and looked at debears' posts before that. I'm not concerned with anything after that, at this point, because his posts before then is what triggered the fluff talking point. I feel pretty good with his content up to that point (~66 posts I think, I may have miss counted). I don't feel like it was a ton of fluff (using clarity's definition). debears tends to respond quickly to people addressing a point or two at a time, so he simply ends up with a big filter comprised mostly of smaller posts. I glanced through his XVIII game (was town) and even there, most of his posts are shorter and addressing a specific point. He seems pretty consistent in that throughout the 3 games. His posts almost always spawn additional discussion and that's good for town. He had a few joke posts in there that were clearly useless, but those aren't difficult to ignore and don't really affect the readability of his filter. Also, the theme of this game was bound to produce some of the joke posts by debears and cheese, so that's forgivable. In the end, I don't think this is a great point on the case vs debears. It seems like an incredibly easy "scum tell" sort of thing to just throw out there that instantly becomes a talking point and may never end. It's not attacking a particular statement or logical thought process, it's just saying "you write shitty content that clutters up the thread and that's scummy." That's fine if he's actually doing that, but after looking through his posts, I don't feel he was. | ||
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On November 05 2012 05:23 Alsn wrote: @Rad You've been asking a lot of questions lately, but I can't find many(any?) of your reads, would you mind sharing your stronger ones? @Alsn I'll just share them all. I had been planning on doing it soon anyway since lynch time is approaching. Clarity - leaning town. I don't know what it is but I get townie vibes from him. I'd also note here that I got townie vibes from cheese all last game, and we see that was a garbage read. With so many people focusing on a clarity bandwagon atm, maybe I'm wrong. Obzy - my biggest town read. Smart posts, smart reads, very useful so far. I want to get some more from him on sylver since I don't agree with his vote on clarity atm. Alsn - leaning town, maybe second biggest town read. He's been very useful and pushing good discussion. Djo - leaning town. He answers my questions without hesitation and is pushing conversation. His "scumslips", well, I have to refer to nack's thoughts last game as he was spot on then and that same reasoning makes sense this game. debears - null. I'd be leaning scum on him if people agreed with my points on him but they've mostly been ignored, so I'll assume people think they're bad. Also, I feel like he's been really useful for town overall, regardless of my concerns with him. Obzy seems pretty sure he's town so as my biggest town read, I feel the urge to take his thoughts as genuine. sylver - leaning scum, but don't feel great about voting him. I think he might be the best vote candidate at this point but I feel terrible about it because I'm not convinced yet. cheese - null. I wish he had more pressure on him but I'm not sure what to push. It seems like no one else has a good idea for that either because he's skating by untouched. da0ud - null. I hope he gets a chance to jump on some before the lynch. If anyone is lurking it's him. I need to read over his content again to see if I feel he's worthy of a policy lynch or not. | ||
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On November 05 2012 06:08 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: @Rad I liked how you had that townie read on me last game . I think you had that read because I was playing very neutral (no strong ultra-mega reads) and using logical points. Is Obzy doing that this game? To you, does he seem like me in the previous game?On November 05 2012 06:08 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: ebwop: Is Clarity doing that this game* No, I feel like Clarity is putting himself out there more than you did last game. You were very safe attacking djo because everyone thought he was scum. Though I don't agree with his fluff argument, it seems sincere, and really the whole fluff argument is entirely subjective (which is why I thought it would get dropped early, but it's stuck around). | ||
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On November 05 2012 06:26 debears wrote: Rad, something I would like to point out. Did clarity start off the game by putting himself out there? Or did it take 2 cases on him to start actually taking stances? Even if this is true, I can't really read into it. I myself don't really take strong stances at the beginning. He was acting very townie to me in the early game, trying to get us out of the policy lynch discussion asap, being active by asking questions and responding to them. Just because he wasn't super aggressive from the start doesn't really tell me anything. His timing on putting himself out there fits with having enough information to start doing so. His early vote on da0ud was weak but i could read it either way, townie or scum, so null. More like an unneeded pressure vote than anything. I dunno, the more I look through his content the more he seems townie to me =/ Like, townie who's trying, succeeding at some things but failing at others due to poor reasoning, and then cases are built around his failures. | ||
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On November 05 2012 07:33 Clarity_nl wrote: @ Alsn I don't think there's a way for me to comment on cheese without screwing myself over. I don't think "staying neutral" is a scum tell on D1, but people clearly think so since it's the lynchpin (lol) of the cases on me. How would commenting on cheese screw you over? | ||
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Why would you confirm clarity as VT? You realize if you're right, you're dropping blue targets for mafia NK. | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:03 debears wrote: Ok. Let's try this Who didn't know about everyone having the role pm? Wouldn't that out every VT and be extremely anti town? | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:05 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Actually, it would make the list of people who aren't town a hell of a lot smaller. What's to stop scum from claiming VT? VT are the only people who didn't know about this. | ||
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what are we waiting for? | ||
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If you are VT, what REASON did you want to be outted? That gives scum 1 less person to try to blue snipe. With your line of reasoning, I'd imagine you should have done something more subtle if you were trying to get all the VTs to notice you? But you just spelled it out and then when clarity jumped in, you claimed he was VT too. How does all of this HELP town? | ||
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You around? Going to reconsider your vote or are you happy with it? | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:34 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Y'all taking it so seriously. Wouldn't have even been a claim if Debears didn't confirm it. You had to spell it out for him. It would be easy to read for anyone at that point even if non VT roles didn't get the VT pm. On November 05 2012 08:28 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Go to the OP. Click under Vanilla Townie. Read the end of that vote post. Realize. | ||
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Who's your vote for right now then? | ||
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Not going to get modkilled, Obzy. Also still considering not voting for cheese. He feels genuine even though there's no damn reason to claim at that point. Seems like only a VT would think that scenario through and it's a huge stretch that he'd pull this shit as scum. | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:40 Rad wrote: ##Vote Mr. Cheesecake Not going to get modkilled, Obzy. Also still considering not voting for cheese. He feels genuine even though there's no damn reason to claim at that point. Seems like only a VT would think that scenario through and it's a huge stretch that he'd pull this shit as scum. EBWOP (not sure if bold needed) ##Vote Mr. Cheesecake | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:39 da0ud wrote: I am reluctant to vote on CC. I want to vote Debears for again jumping right after Djo on the catching CC's slip and the voting on CC He looks like town giving up now. ##Vote Debears On November 05 2012 09:40 da0ud wrote: I think we are lynching CC too fast.... @everyone I think da0ud might be right. What's everyone's thoughts on this? | ||
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##Vote debears | ||
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On November 05 2012 10:16 da0ud wrote: Yeah, I think i fought for him more than himself... Yeah, I agree. I'm just happy he got re-motivated to live near the end cause he certainly didn't seem like he was going to. | ||
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On November 05 2012 10:13 Obzy wrote: Sigh. In the future, CC, try acting town-like instead of flavor-claiming in the last hour. GG @Obzy In my first game, when I voted off a fellow townie, I was devastated. You don't seem too worried. Do you really think it's appropriate to lecture cheese after his lynch? He made 1 major fuck up, and now that we know he's town, his story makes sense. That's all that got him lynched and didn't really have much to do with the rest of his game. | ||
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On November 05 2012 12:05 sylverfyre wrote: So. Cheesecake does his flavor-roleclaim. Who follows? Clarity's the first to really manipulate people into looking at him favorably. (when he had looked bad all game) FOS: Clarity Can you quote the post you're talking about here? He was really late to jump on the cheese vote train. At what point do you think he was manipulating people? | ||
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You don't think this was a good thing for clarity to say? It didn't make any sense for cheese to have claimed VT at that point. That seemed very anti-town and confusing because he wasn't under pressure. Clarity asked for a reason why he claimed VT. I was also wanting to know that reason. Seems like a smart question, or do you not think so? He didn't actually vote cheese until cheese threw out the wifom defense (which was after debears, djo, and you had all voted cheese). On November 05 2012 09:32 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Lol what do you want me to say, bro? You should Know i wouldn't do something this stupid as scum xD On November 05 2012 09:33 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Please, I had way more pressure as scum last game. On November 05 2012 09:33 Clarity_nl wrote: ##unvote ##vote Mr. Cheesecake Your defense is WIFOM?! | ||
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On November 05 2012 14:27 sylverfyre wrote: Rad, it was the first part "I don't wanna pay for no porn, man" that I was reading into - from the VT PM (which we now know, per mod announcement, we all know) I'm focusing on his choice of action before mod announcement. His action was basically claiming VT while at the same time trying to question Cheesecake - almost like he's distancing himself from CC (questioning) while at the same time doing the same action (claiming VT). Anyway, I'm going to bed. Work tomorrow, can't be as active, but I'll be around for daystart. Why would he distance himself from cheesecake if he knew cheesecake was town? Wouldn't he only distance himself from cheese if he thought cheese was scum? I didn't take it as claiming VT. I took it as he already knew what cheese was referencing and was confused that cheese was claiming. He could have realized that as any role, because every role knew that line. He even stated that we "can't make an assumption based on the host's behavior" which in this case is true. The host didn't put the info in the OP and the assumption that Regular Fapper was only known by the Regular Fappers was incorrect. | ||
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I like it. I'd also like you to go after someone else now because sylver has just stated that he won't be back until day start. We won't get much more out of him until then I'd think. | ||
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On November 05 2012 15:02 Djodref wrote: I don't like Clarity early reaction to Cheese claim. Among Rad, debears and Clarity, he is the only one to doubt Cheese's claim before Marv post. I think that Clarity is mafia and had the information beforehand (the information that the VT role PM was dispatched to everybody). Djo, he explained himself pretty clearly, and what he said is true. On November 05 2012 08:32 Clarity_nl wrote: I can do that too. I don't wanna pay for no porn man. I don't think that saying that proves anything, can't make an assumption based on the host's behavior. Cheese why did you claim VT? | ||
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On November 05 2012 15:12 Djodref wrote: @ debears You have a point but I don't think that it is that relevant. Sylver tried to vote you but there was obviously no momentum to get you lynched today. He was then convinced that Cheese and you was the scumteam and, at that moment, Cheese could be lynched. I think you were his primary target but he went for his secondary target instead because he couldn't get you lynched. I kind of did the same thing. I wanted a Clarity lynch and it almost happened but then Alsn made his case, Cheese claimed and said so this on top of my previous suspicion on Cheese made me think that Clarity and Cheese was the scumteam. I've made the stupidest mistake ever, the association case without flip information. After that, there was no more momentum for a Clarity lynch so I also went for my secondary target. I would like your input on two points
If your top scum read has a chance to be lynched, you jump all over that bandwagon ASAP. Jumping off cheese and onto debears either gets debears lynched or cheese lynched. Staying on cheese gets cheese lynched 100%. Jumping to debears at least gives debears a chance to be lynched. If debears is your top scum read, and you're town, you should jump on him in that scenario. Concerning alsn's case on cheese, I'll look into it tomorrow. Concerning clarity's reaction, I think it was completely fine and reasonable. Asking what his motivation was is the proper move, and voting him after he gave a purely WIFOM argument is also a good move. Ok, going to go relax for a few and watch some shows before bed. Might jump on and post more if I see activity, might not. Be on tomorrow though of course. | ||
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On November 05 2012 15:14 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Did you imagine one single instant that marv has sent the VT role flavor also to the mafia members ? I didn't, Cheese didn't and debears didn't. So why would have Clarity such doubts ? What if clarity PM'd the host asking about this before the cheese incident? What if he just realized that you can't read into the flavor too much because, well, it's true, you can't read into the flavor too much? Why must "he's scum!" be the answer? Null read to me. | ||
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On November 05 2012 15:14 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Did you imagine one single instant that marv has sent the VT role flavor also to the mafia members ? I didn't, Cheese didn't and debears didn't. So why would have Clarity such doubts ? Also, djo, just realized your question here could be considered blue hunting. If I DID realize it before cheese's argument, that suggests I'm scum or blue, right? Since a VT couldn't possibly realize this, according to you? Just wanted to point that out. | ||
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On November 05 2012 15:30 da0ud wrote: Can someone explain me what he meant here ? Mr. Cheesecake, being a VT, got a post that explains that he's a Regular Fapper (VT). He noticed that the OP did not have this information in the Vanilla Townie spoiler. He then assumed that no one else but VTs had this information. In order to somehow get all other VTs on the same lines (go VT power I guess), he tried to throw that info out as a sort of town tell that only VTs would pick up. Unfortunately, he didn't realize that every single person in the game got the information that VTs are Regular Fappers. | ||
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On November 05 2012 15:51 Djodref wrote: It's not that he didn't realize it, it's that he didn't know it. And it is not natural to think that the flavor for the VT role PM has been given to everybody, especially for a newbie like Clarity. This on top of the precedent cases against him. He is most certainly scum ! @ Rad Did you see how he avoided to discuss with me after this post + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 17:29 Djodref wrote: Wouldn't you mind to discuss what you have against me right now ? I'm going to have to sleep before the deadline and I don't want to have to defend your case against me while waking up and catching the thread. Plus it's going to be likely that I need to decide my vote at this time so I would prefer to focus on analysis rather than defense at that time. I find it odd that you don't want to go after Cheese as well. He should be looking quite scummy in your eyes right now because he didn't answer your question. Also, if I want to sum up his contribution so far, he is just tunneling me after an OMGUSy FoS on me. If we have a jailer, I would like him to block Clarity. If we have a cop, I would like him to invest someone esle (because of framer). If we have a medic, I wouldn't mind protection for the night. Your consistency is terrible. On November 05 2012 11:03 Djodref wrote: I'm going to prepare a new case on Clarity before the end of N1. I might also have a case for someone else, I need to do some reasearch first and Ill keep this as a surprise ^^ So you can do it but clarity can't? He at least told you that he had a case against you but he doesn't want to discuss it. I've already shown I have issues with his decision and I pushed for him to post it. But you just spit out "I might have a case, it'll be a surprise!" How is that better than clarity? I can't wait for both of your cases! They'll be so enjoyable, especially yours, cause I have no idea who the hell you're wanting to target but you think it's worth keeping secret. I recommend no blues listen to any of djo's suggestions at the moment. | ||
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What do you think of Clarity's defense? Who else are you particularly suspicious of right now? | ||
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Don't you think the argument should be dropped? Let's say he actually did ask the host about it in PM. Trying to explain why he didn't disclose the information would just be WIFOM. Furthermore, if he IS town, trying to get his reasons for PMing is blue hunting (whether you mean to be doing it or not, his answer, if sincere (only he and scum would know), helps them hunt down the blues). If you want to keep putting pressure on Clarity, by all means, please continue. But put smarter pressure on him as you'll get nowhere with this discussion. | ||
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You don't agree that the information could be helpful for blue hunting (if his answer is sincere, that is)? I realize that if you're town, you actually don't believe he's town also so his answer is a scum answer, but let's say you're both town. Do you think the answer to your question is good information to give scum? | ||
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On November 06 2012 02:06 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity After a post like this, the only possibility for you to be alive tomorrow morning is being mafia. Explain. | ||
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Not convinced. | ||
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Regarding your dramatic statement "I'm very disappointed that no one have taken a look on the guy who provoked Cheese mislynch.". Alsn did not provoke the cheese mislynch. He did try to get him lynched, but he wasn't responsible for it. Cheese had no chance of being lynched until he claimed VT. With that said, yes, I do think we need to take a closer look into alsn soon. | ||
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On November 06 2012 09:59 Djodref wrote: Ok, this was dramatic. He started the bandwagon at least ^^ No, cheese started the bandwagon with his claim. Alsn was coincidentally already for voting him. There was no one following a cheese bandwagon based on alsn's case. | ||
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FoS Djo partial FoS Sylver | ||
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On November 06 2012 10:11 Djodref wrote: @ Rad The mafia priority is not blue sniping. Debears was a good choice... While being active and all, debears was kind of a town leader, even if he was controversial. Him being gone makes life easier for scum. Also, we can make some assumptions
Feeling stupid, scum? | ||
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On November 06 2012 10:14 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Can I ask you who you expected to die ? @Djo Me or debears. Debears for the reason you said. He's the big hitter here, aggressive, makes big cases, is influential. Might also be blue! Everyone here knows how gullible I am. Read through last game's scum QT. Lots of "rad's in love with you" speaking about cheese and debears (though tbh I was just in love with cheese <3, thought debears was scum but publicly claimed I thought he was town. Also I trust dandel a lot, in fact, shot kush because he helped convince me). Why kill me if I think you're town? Check my last list. Obzy #1 town. You I also considered town. Why kill me if I'm pretty much on your side in terms of my reads? They had a really hard time deciding to take me out, and I think you (or obzy, if you're not scum) had that same concern. Of course scum don't have to necessarily blue hunt, but why not? Do you think scum was THAT afraid of debears? If so, that must be very telling in who we need to look at next. Who do you think debears had the best read on? Or do you think they were just generally afraid that he'll eventually figure them out? Djo, let's say debears and me are both town. Why debears over me? I also thought da0ud and alsn were reasonable targets due to their lack of suspicion from anyone. I LOL'd when you said you were a reasonable target though. If you are town, keeping you around to confuse the hell out of everyone seems really smart. | ||
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On November 06 2012 10:39 Djodref wrote: So you expected debears to die and you admit that scum had good reasons to die but your first reaction is "LOL scum, you have hit a VT. Better luck at blue sniping next time  "What the fuck was that ? I expected myself to look more blue than debears. So going into it, I expected to die over him. When he died, I LOL'd because I had been reading him hard VT due to the cheese situation. Didn't we seem at least a bit more friendly since the lynch? I didn't give him any shit for the cheese lynch and was interested in his reads beyond sylver. That's because I had stopped suspecting him from my VT read on him and his questioning sylver when he himself was a lynch candidate (sylver should have jumped - my theory there atm is that he should have jumped over to debears to help the debears lynch since debears was a higher scum read than cheese, but he knew debears was town, so him jumping would look extra suspicious when debears flipped. May as well stick to cheese who he also knew was town but at least there he wouldn't look as suspicious because everyone else was so suspicious of cheese). | ||
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I'm not 100% on you being scum yet so I want to give you a chance to redeem yourself if you are indeed town. I looked through your filter and you just don't do any scum hunting. You're very neutral on everything. You FoS'd cheese and clarity and... that's about it? Maybe someone else that I'm forgetting, maybe not. You ask very neutral questions and you don't get in people's face about your concerns. I get that you could be a town that just doesn't want to get in people's faces, but I need you to scum hunt somehow. Find holes in people's arguments, push them, question them. I did not get the feel that you did any of that when I was looking through your filter. You're, from what I can tell, the definition of active neutral lurker, blending. You don't step on anyone's toes, but you need to start. I'm not convinced clarity's scum and just because many others are (or were, whatever the case now) convinced doesn't mean you're allowed to sit back and say "I'm definitely voting clarity next lynch" like it's a strong stance, or "you shouldn't try to convince me you're not scum, you should try to go find who is" like you're doing a good job of it and he isn't. I realize telling you my concerns this early if you're scum gives you the chance to change and "convince" me by changing into what I wanted you to be. However, if you're town, I don't want to make the mistake of misreading you. I think if you're town, you'll be able to convince me with good scum hunting and smart pressure. | ||
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On November 06 2012 11:24 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Did you see how he avoided to discuss with me after this post + Show Spoiler + On November 04 2012 17:29 Djodref wrote: Wouldn't you mind to discuss what you have against me right now ? I'm going to have to sleep before the deadline and I don't want to have to defend your case against me while waking up and catching the thread. Plus it's going to be likely that I need to decide my vote at this time so I would prefer to focus on analysis rather than defense at that time. I find it odd that you don't want to go after Cheese as well. He should be looking quite scummy in your eyes right now because he didn't answer your question. Also, if I want to sum up his contribution so far, he is just tunneling me after an OMGUSy FoS on me. I want your comment on this Rad. I don't think you gave it to me yet... @Djo Why the bolded you? Are you implying "you (me), of all people, should be smart enough to see it"? Sounds like you're just trying to convince me by appealing to me. Thanks <3 But I don't agree with you. Concerning his case on you. First off, he just threatened it. He didn't wait until last second and post it before you had a chance to defend yourself. If he was town and was about to be lynched, it would make sense for him to then post a case he had against you before the lynch went through. The reason I was concerned at first and wanted him to post it was in the scenario of him posting it with just enough time for people to be convinced to jump ship to you (30m-1h?), but that didn't happen. Maybe he's scum, and maybe he would have done that if cheese didn't get himself killed, but that didn't happen so we can't read into it. | ||
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On November 06 2012 11:15 Obzy wrote: Hm. I think if you're banking on me upping my play and showing off hidden skills, you'll be disappointed. I don't expect you to turn into a debears case making machine over night, or ever, you can have your own play style. Hell, I can't do that shit either, it tires me the hell out. I just expect some more edge. Blending doesn't help town, it's a scum move. Lead smaller cases, bring new points to the table, put yourself out there instead of playing it safe. That's all I ask if you're town. | ||
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Why did you stay on cheese when you had a chance to vote on debears, who you thought was scummier? | ||
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On November 06 2012 11:51 Djodref wrote: @ Rad First, he didn't want to discuss about my me being scummy in his eyes with me 17 hours before lynch. (1)Why would you like to retain information at that time ? (2)My point is that he didn't want to discuss and you have been bitching me to hell last game when I said "I'm not going to change my mind". I think not willing to discuss is way worse than not wanting to change your mind. Second, this guy said I trapped him not posting his case against me. That's a lie because I gave him a fair warning like 17h before the lynch but even if he was town and felt trapped and bullied by a guy who he thinks scum, I'm saying that there are just more reasons for him to post his case against me. But he doesn't post it because it's going to look bad and because I won't have time to defend myself which was his first point to not discuss with me at the beginning. What I think: His case against me is bad and weak and he knows this because he is scum and I'm town. What would you do if one your top scumread was bullying you so you cannot post your case without looking bad and proposing himself for a lynch candidate. I would personally add this points in my case and take the risk to be mislynch to show everyone what fucking bastard he is. Clarity has shown way too much self-preservation instinct and he didn't want to commit like any townie should do. And the alternative case he made was against debears, another town guy. 1. Why not? He didn't try to make a push on getting you lynched, you didn't end up being a lynch candidate, and he can post today if he wants. He had very low possibility of being NK considering most people think he's suspicious. 2. He decided to make a case against debears instead. Why discuss with you at that point if he's not interested in pushing it? If he does think you're scum, and he is town, seems like he would want to keep that info to himself in the meantime since he's not going anywhere anytime soon (and said he would post if he was to be lynched, which makes sense, though we can't read into it since it didn't happen so whatever) As for him potentially looking bad by posting a case on you when you'll supposedly flip town one day, he would have (if scum) had that same concern with debears when he made that case, so this isn't even really worth thinking about. I don't think he was holding back out of fear of a case on you implicating him if you flipped green, I think he just wanted to put out a case against debears instead (for whatever reason, we can't figure that out without going WIFOM crazy). | ||
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On November 06 2012 12:07 Djodref wrote: @ Rad When did you realize he was claiming VT ? With the first claim or the second claim or when he was explicit with it. What did you think of it at that time ? I realized with this post: On November 05 2012 06:56 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: I'm not going to push a Djo lynch again, mainly because arguing with him is a game of cat and mouse. I think neutrality is going to become an integral part of my play D1 anyway. Taking a huge stance this early just doesn't seem all that feasible for me, because a lot of my arguments are "nit-picky" as Djo calls it. Once the first person flips, things become a lot more clear to me based on context and I can go from there. At this point, the only reason I'd vote for Debears is to get concrete info, which isn't a good thing. I'd vote Clarity because his Debears counter-case is really OMGUSy and he seems like the person to actively lurk. Brb dinner. Also, Regular Fapper. I'm not going to tell you what I thought of it because that's blue hunting, and I feel I will survive until the night. | ||
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On November 06 2012 12:18 Djodref wrote: @ Rad My comments in bold font in your post. @Djo There is only so much time in a day, and only so much time to be spent on TL mafia. He used some amount of time to put together a debears case, as well as some defending himself. I don't think we can read into it one way or the other (null for me). We have no idea if he's town without a lot of time or scum with plenty of time, or something inbetween. Clarity was pretty much the go-to lynch for the day until cheese's claim. If I were a town clarity, I'd think I was going to survive a NK because I'm a good d2 lynch candidate. Djo, if you want to convince me of a scum clarity, I need you to look elsewhere. I'm not convinced he's necessarily town, but all the arguments against him have been shit. | ||
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If you're going to respond to my already labeled #1 and #2 points next time, could you just put a #1 and #2 of your own? Thanks <3 | ||
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On November 06 2012 12:22 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Stop with the blue hunting bullshit. If you are cop and you had a green check on Clarity, you should tell us right now. It's either that or you are scum with him. You are such an hypocrite in your defense of him ! I point you some points which show clearly anti-town behavior and you keep finding excuses for him. @Djo I'm not a cop. Why are you so intent on getting roles out of people? You really come to the conclusion of "if you're not a cop, you're scumteam with clarity!"? I defend against stupid points, which is pretty much everything you have to say about him. Notice when you ask shit that at least doesn't have an obvious defense to, I let it go so I can see his response? Please spend your time finding valid points. Also, stop blue hunting. | ||
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How about we just stop the back and forth for now? I think we've gotten everything we can out of each other atm. I'm going to go do something fun (maybe hots!) and if others show up, maybe I'll pop back in, but it feels pretty useless with us just yelling at each other back and forth. I appreciate you being so passionate about your case, but I think if you're town you're confirmation biased against him right now. Maybe try scum hunting someone else for a bit since there's 2 scum, then come back to clarity. We have 2 days until lynch. I have a question I need answered from sylver, and I expect to see some sort of change in obzy. I want to look into alsn next, but I need to enjoy myself some too and I really prefer interacting with people to determine my reads rather than reading through filters all night. | ||
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I spent ~3 hours since the NK discussing mostly with you and some with obzy. Our conversation got stale as hell and I have to enjoy my real life too or I will go mfing insane tomorrow trying to work. Don't even BEGIN to claim I'm not helping town just because I won't role claim right now. Of course if we kill all the scum then it doesn't matter if everyone in the game role claimed and all the blues were outted, because in the end town won. But WHAT POSSIBLE REASON do you think any of us have to believe you're town and you have town's best interests in mind? Do you think you're confirmed town by anyone at this point? Why the hell would anyone want to give you information when that information isn't appropriate to give right now from a town perspective. About your clarity town vs djo scum garbage, you're missing the clarity town djo town scenario. Don't think it's possible that he had bad reads on you and you have bad reads on him? Why is it the case that one of you MUST be scum? Always remember this: shitty town is not scum. We learned that from you last game, try to see if he fits and stop thinking all your points are pure gold. Rethink them. You have no idea how convinced I was that kush was scum last game and I was totally off. That shit can happen so you need to step back and get a grip. | ||
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On November 06 2012 13:55 sylverfyre wrote: 1 -I didn't see the chance, I was too busy trying to make sense of the shitstorm (shit, I even posted past marv calling for a stoppost) 2 - I didn't think people would follow me if I voted for Debears, which is why I switched to cheese (I was trying to push debears over before a flood of people voted cheese. I gave up on the debears case and voted for #2 on my top 2, confident that if I was right about cheese, people would believe me about debears too. I was wrong about cheese, and about debears. 3 - I didn't realize that cheese voting debears as a good reason to switch my vote back for debears, bringing debears up to 3. Had I switched back, he was only 1 vote off from saving cheese (didn't realize this.) We now know that I was wrong about debears, so I'm really not sure what lynching him instead would have accomplished. Alright sylver, I admit it was chaotic as hell. Thanks for answering. BTW you switching to debears would have brought it to 4 (me, da0ud, cheese, you). I think cheese still gets lynched in that situation but it would have given the opportunity for someone else to jump on debears to make it happen. | ||
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On November 06 2012 13:55 da0ud wrote: I was busy this morning and just finished catching up. One first thing that comes to mind since the night kill is Djo's really insisting on pushing for a Clarity lynch. This seems pretty obvious to me as his defense on the role claim is pretty bad. Best example about it is : He says : But right after CC's second role claim he adds : If this is not role claiming ! However I find Rad's position on the subject smarter. He is a clear target, We should stop tunneling him for some time. There is someone else in the scum team (or two other people if Clarity is not). I have not read your filter like I said I would Rad (remember my gut feeling on you), but recently you have looked really town to me, so I am not that concerned Djo, however, I would still like people to look at him closely. Only two things he has been doing is: - tunnel Clarity, hence retaining information to the town, not trying to diversify the targets. - blue hunting as well big time during all N1 and since the beginning of D2. I really believe he could be bussing his mate to gain town credit or just keep the attention on him. @da0ud My big issue with djo right now is his persistence in blue hunting. I hate it. He really needs to stop and his point about "doesn't matter if we win!" is terrible. debears also blue hunted during the cheese case but turns out that was just an accident. I hate that we keep having to point out to djo that he needs to stop blue hunting and he's ignoring it. I'll be honest with you though. I'm null on him now, or maybe leaning town. He's ridiculously passionate about his clarity tunneling, or at least that's how I read it, and that feels townie to me. Not that I'd get a scum read from him if he wasn't being like this, but I dunno, that's just how I'm feeling atm. I want him to stop tunneling clarity for a bit and move on. He was shitty town last game and I refuse shitty djo town this game, but I think he's just blinded with rage right now. I agree with djo on your thoughts of him gaining super town credit if clarity flips scum, in the case of djo clarity scum team. I think we only worry about that if we end up lynching clarity and he flips scum (or visa versa I suppose?). Also, on my list of possible scum teams, djo clarity isn't one of them (not that I have an actual list, but this one hasn't really come to mind, seems way too elaborate to be real). | ||
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On November 06 2012 14:25 Djodref wrote: @ Rad The point in my argumention is not that one of us has to be scum (my alignment did not matter, I just wanted to emphasize how anti-town is his behavior in the case I would be scum), the main point is that he did not show town behavior in my interactions with me if he really had a scum read on me (which would be a bad read of course because I am town) and he did not show town behavior in his interactions with Cheese. And Clarity did not show town behavior before that as well (please refer to my case and debears case on him). I'm going to tunnel Clarity today until the moment when you are going to say, "ok, let's lynch him today". What's your read on him by the way ? Why are you defending him so much ? My read on clarity is town, djo. I was defending bad points against him before I had that read though. I'm really disappointed that you're going to only tunnel him, considering there are 2 scum out there. I would suggest you at least scum hunt someone else for 24h and switch back to him after that if you insist. If I could recommend someone, I'd say Alsn, as he's skated by pretty freely and I feel compelled to consider him town also (for some unknown reason I can't figure out). I myself plan on looking into him. In the meantime, I will reconsider my own thoughts towards clarity when I get a chance to, because cheese was my #1 town read last game, and clarity is now. | ||
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On November 06 2012 14:43 Djodref wrote: @ Rad I was not shitty town last game, I've been pushing for a Dandel Ion lynch all D2 and I even doubted his fakeclaim. My case against him was spot on, and my case against Clarity is quite good I think right now. Of course, I've been looking scummy as well, but this is something you have to expect when someone is posting without paying attention to his posts and is taking strong stances. I promise to stop the blue hunting. By shitty town, I meant you didn't look town at all last game. Do you disagree? Don't really care how good your reads are if I can't believe a word you say. On November 06 2012 14:43 Djodref wrote: I'll move on when you vote Clarity though... Do you promise? | ||
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On November 06 2012 15:25 Obzy wrote: I was trying to. I voted Sylver, that was me attempting to push Sylver as a read and apparently I am just horrible at it because not a single person noticed or cared until now, at which point I'm told by you that it's not good enough. The lol is just how I type, I apologize for any confusion. I'll try to stop using it until I forget =l I had a strong Clar-is-scum read that got sort of shot down by doubts from Rad and Alsn, and not really being able to question adequately(apparently) earlier this morning.. Now there are votes on Clar and we're ignoring Sylv - ??? I don't understand. Until tomorrow afternoon (or maybe while I'm at work tomorrow), my vote is parked on Sylv and I think that other people should be voting Sylv too. If there's zero chance of a Sylv lynch because of lack of interest, lack of caring, lack of response to my attempt at a case from both other players and Sylv himself, I'll reconsider then, but seriously what the heck. I just don't get it. I'm not implying that Rad isn't town, it just astonishes me how the tide of opinion shifts, and in less than 30 minutes. This morning I would've been more than happy to vote Clarity, it was my intention to do so, and I feel like I was talked/intimidated out of it. Now, here we are again. @Obzy Read the thread, you'll understand my vote on clarity. Hell, read my post before it O.o | ||
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Don't read into my vote too much, other than what was said by me. If you check my history, I take my votes very seriously, in that I don't do them unless I feel there's a good reason to. I want djo to do scum hunting other than clarity at this point. He made a request, I accepted. Not a big deal. He has his reasons for wanting me to vote clarity this early even though he knows my vote isn't real, and I'm also interested in seeing how that plays out. I think if you focused on clarity, like you're saying you want to, that would be great. You can come to a good conclusion then either way. I have a town read on him, but it's not 100% confirmed necessarily. I could be wrong, and have been in the past. I just really want djo off him and onto something else, because ultimately there are 2 scum whether clarity is scum or not. And if clarity is town, as I suspect, djo tunneling him for the next 48 hours is a terrible waste. | ||
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Your arguments against clarity are embarrassing. If you're town, please get help from your coach. You seem to think you've got the whole world figured out, but you don't. On November 06 2012 22:02 Djodref wrote: I mean that you are a newb, and newb dont go and ask questions to the host. Wrong. On November 06 2012 20:15 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity Night or Day, I'm expecting a fake blue claim from you. I wanted to force you to produce it and try to show how your blue claim is fake. I did not manage to do it last time for dandel but I should get my revenge Given your experience in this game, I doubt that you actually went for marv to ask your infamous question about the flavor, in the case where you are VT. Stupid obvious trap. If he was going to do that, he's not going to now. What's wrong with you? On November 06 2012 20:15 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity Night or Day, I'm expecting a fake blue claim from you. I wanted to force you to produce it and try to show how your blue claim is fake. I did not manage to do it last time for dandel but I should get my revenge Given your experience in this game, I doubt that you actually went for marv to ask your infamous question about the flavor, in the case where you are VT. Stupid assumption. On November 06 2012 20:46 Djodref wrote: I think that you are blue or scum because a VT Clarity would have defended Cheese. But I don t think that you can really be blue... A VT could be completely confused at what to do, probably hold off on voting, push cheese to explain himself, be super disappointed when his case was the epitome of WIFOM. On November 06 2012 21:01 Djodref wrote: ok, we have now 2 VT dead. Both of them were at least as experienced on playing mafia on this forum if not more for debears. Both of them did not ask the host about the flavor or whatever. Stupid terrible point that means nothing. On November 06 2012 21:01 Djodref wrote: Here is what I expect of VT Clarity ~ not sending a question to the host about the flavor in your own VT pm, which Clarity did ~ even with some doubts, recognize the genuiness of the other two VT going into a high five festival and join the festival, which Clarity did not do Reasons against VT clarity sending a PM are all stupid assumptions and I can't believe you keep pushing them. VT clarity notices that his PM flavor isn't in the OP and PMs the host because he wants to know if this is useful information he could have. VT cheese thought the same, but didn't PM the host. VT cheese straight up believed this was a good option to secretly speak with the other VTs and he made a move on it. Different people can do different things from the same thought process and you thinking clarity is scum because he didn't do what you think he should have done is absolutely retarded. Figuring out the genuineness of cheese and debears on the spot was extremely hard. I wasn't convinced on debears, even with his high five, until his sylver questions during the time he could be lynched. At that point, I was like shit, I think debears is probably town, but I think moreso of cheese, so I'll stick on debears since there's no better option and I had a scum read on him before. Also, debears tried to out blues, in hindsight an accident, but at the time hard to figure out. It was a very close call for me to change form cheese to debears because cheese started all the chaos, so i can see someone in my same position making the different choice of sticking to cheese. Djo, all your damn arguments could be used against me if I had voted for cheese instead of debears in that situation, and all your arguments are WRONG. That's why I keep defending clarity, not because he's necessarily town, but because all your arguments and assumptions are WRONG. Please sit back and truly consume this post I have just given you. Don't go ballistic and try to ask me 10000 questions without first thinking about it. Sit back and read the shit out of it until you understand what I'm trying to say. | ||
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On November 06 2012 21:01 Djodref wrote: ok, we have now 2 VT dead. Both of them were at least as experienced on playing mafia on this forum if not more for debears. Both of them did not ask the host about the flavor or whatever. Go back and read debears at the point he realized what cheese was talking about. He did not realize the PM flavor was not in the OP until cheese pointed it out. You can damn well bet that clarity read every bit of that OP after he got modkilled last game from not knowing the rules. | ||
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##Unvote I'll get to your questions when I get a chance. Keep in mind I'm working atm, so even if you can't sleep djo, I don't have time right now to fight with you. I spent time on my last post because it spelled shit out for you, but you ignored it, or maybe you just can't grasp it. If you want me to be on the clarity lynch train with you, you better come out with better arguments because I'm reading him as town. Maybe obzy will jump in and scum hunt clarity with a clear head since he's at least clearly not confirmation biased against him. | ||
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On November 07 2012 02:52 Djodref wrote: Ok, I have big news for you guys You have all pissed me off seriously with all the "no blue hunting" comments and so on. I want Clarity to give us his role. Don't worry about outing the blues, I'm going to do this myseld: I claim Jail keeper You can find the breadcrumb here Gardien means keeper in French. Look it up. Add this to my act of bravado and all the stuff I've said about the roles and the blues and my jailkeeper post during N1 and I think you can understand my frustration about being called a blue-hunter. I have blocked Alsn N1 by the way because I thought he was scum with Clarity. But right now, I would say that Rad and Clarity is the scumteam ! Jailkeeper eh? I was sure you were cop and that you had a red read on clarity (and that there's a framer who framed him). That explained to me why you were so passionately hellbent on him being scum. Hrm. Why block alsn over trying to save debears since you thought that was the obvious NK? Isn't it more of a shot in the dark that alsn a) is scum and b) will be the one to make the kill, than it would have been that debears (or me, tbh) was the target of the NK? | ||
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yes that's what he said. Instead of protecting debears or myself, who imo were better jailkeeper targets. | ||
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great, waiting for better stuff on clarity. I feel I was a good target because a) I'm town and b) I like my style of scum hunting and feel it should be scary to people (if I'm on the right track with my thoughts, that is). My not being NK'd prompted my FoS on obzy and yourself due to what I've already said about scum not wanting to NK someone who thinks they're town (like we saw last game). | ||
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On November 07 2012 03:34 Rad wrote: @djo great, waiting for better stuff on clarity. I feel I was a good target because a) I'm town and b) I like my style of scum hunting and feel it should be scary to people (if I'm on the right track with my thoughts, that is). My not being NK'd prompted my FoS on obzy and yourself due to what I've already said about scum not wanting to NK someone who thinks they're town (like we saw last game). EBWOP: Also, let me point out that more people considered me town than considered debears town. | ||
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I've been thinking djo was cop since after we had our back and forth for 3 hours after I FoS'd him (thinking he got a red read on clarity, meaning clarity is scum or was framed). This explained his bad arguments on clarity to me (confirmation bias, he thought clarity was scum, then he checked and look he's red! he must have been right all along!), and that's why I told da0ud that i had changed my mind on djo. I don't know what to think about his claim yet, but I'll probably believe it if no one counter-claims. | ||
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Can you clarify what you're asking? | ||
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You think it's pretty likely, do you? Can you explain why? | ||
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On November 07 2012 04:26 Alsn wrote: Because it just fits? I'm still going to see if there's anything inherently contradictory about it. But the fact remains my suspicions against Cheese were similar to what I felt about you at the time. You were extremely unwilling to vote for anyone of Cheese, debears, Clarity. Two of them are now confirmed to be town, and the last has long been suspected of being scum. @alsn I wasn't convinced of who I should vote. I didn't want to vote clarity, for the reasons I stated in the first list I made. I wanted to vote debears but no one else did, so I was questioning myself (also I was considering since he's the most active, I shouldn't vote him). I was also reading sylver as scum but there was no lynch potential on him. So I had clarity (who I was leaning town) or ___? Then the cheese incident happened and everything went into chaos. Because of that chaos, I got 4 reads: 1. Cheese town - his reasons for claiming the first time were clear to me, but he didn't keep it under wraps. He kept spitting it out like VTs didn't notice, and then he straight up spelled it out to debears. This looked genuine to me because I understood his thought process. 2. debears town - his interactions with cheese and his agreeing with sylver being suspicious for not voting him when he still had a chance to be lynched, those things made me realize he was town (VT due to the interactions with cheese) 3. clarity probably town - also due to his interactions with cheese, not as strong, I thought he might be blue but I was leaning VT due to him claiming he PM'd the host. 4. da0ud - town, balls of steel to jump on debears, if debears gets lynched there he and cheese are prime suspects for next 2 lynches. If he's scum, he knows debears is town, so voting cheese is much safer because everyone else is already doing it. This is a main reason I find sylver scummy, for not jumping to debears when he had a chance (because if scum, he knows debears is town, and him staying on cheese is much safer). | ||
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On November 07 2012 04:59 Alsn wrote: Now that's either just a straight up lie. Or you have a very weird definition of what town should do. You are now claiming that you were unsure of who to vote leading up to the lynch, but in point 2) you say you "realised he was town" yet you still voted for him? That makes no sense. I'm thinking you're just lying through your teeth here. You wanted your vote to sit on debears because you wanted to make it look like you believed the people who were wary of a Cheese lynch since you knew he would flip town. @alsn He was scum hunting when he had a chance to be lynched. I think that's super townie. He wasn't trying to divert attention from himself possibly getting lynched, he was pointing out scummy behavior at a good time when that information was important. It was important to get sylver's response to that asap because it didn't make sense for him to not jump to his biggest scum tell. I threw the idea out there and he confirmed it was suspicious at that moment when it might be bad for him to point it out. I think scum debears ignores my comment about sylver and possibly revisits it later if sylver is town. The sylver thing happened after I had my vote on debears, and is the point where it all fit together for me. His interactions with cheese + the sylver comment had me convinced. I didn't switch back to cheese at that point because I still had a higher town read on cheese than debears, due to debears trying to blue hunt which was confusing at that point. | ||
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At the point I voted for debears, I thought cheese was town, and I still had a scum read on debears. I did not think his interactions with cheese alone necessarily confirmed him VT to me. When da0ud came in and voted debears, I saw that as a better candidate than cheese because I still considered him scum. It was the sylver comment that pushed it over the edge and everything made sense to me. Even then, I had a higher town read on cheese due to debear's blue hunting being confusing as hell, so I stuck with my vote. | ||
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On November 07 2012 05:13 Alsn wrote: Now you're deliberately misunderstanding me. You lied because: You say you didn't want to vote for debears because you thought debears was town. Yet you voted for debears. You voted for someone you at the time claim you thought was town @alsn Can you please point out where I said I didn't want to vote for debears because I thought debears was town? I see myself saying the exact opposite here: On November 07 2012 04:17 Rad wrote: I wasn't convinced of who I should vote. I didn't want to vote clarity, for the reasons I stated in the first list I made. I wanted to vote debears but no one else did, so I was questioning myself (also I was considering since he's the most active, I shouldn't vote him). I was also reading sylver as scum but there was no lynch potential on him. So I had clarity (who I was leaning town) or ___? | ||
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On November 07 2012 05:19 Clarity_nl wrote: @ Rad You had town reads on both so you voted for the lesser townread? Why didn't you switch to me or Djo? After the sylver comment, I had town reads on both. I voted for debears before that. I did not want to switch to cheese because debears' blue hunting still had me baffled, so he was the lesser of the 2 town reads. I didn't switch to you because I told cheese straight up I don't feel comfortable voting you (had a town read on you). I had a scum read on debears at the point where I switched to him. I had a town read on djo (see my list), but the scenario never presented itself to vote for him so not sure why you're bringing him up. Cheese said he'd vote for djo right then if he had a chance (an answer to a question I asked him) and if cheese jumped, I might have just given cheese all my confidence and jumped because in my mind he was confirmed VT. Note my town read on djo was "djo doesn't make any sense and is just being djo." Remember I helped get him lynched last game when he was town and I simply don't know how to read him. | ||
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Because of the chaos, I got those 4 reads. The chaos includes sylver's lack of switching to debears, and debear's noticing I had pointed it out and continuing his scum hunt instead of holding off. I do not say anywhere that I thought debears was town when I voted him. | ||
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I read clarity as town, somewhat confirmed by the cheese incident but not completely. I read him as town before that, but I was convinced more after it. Because i truly believe clarity is town, I was trying to figure out why djo would be so hardcore on getting him lynched today, like it's his one and only mission. I started to read djo as town due to this, and then i realized maybe he's cop and got a red read on clarity. A town clarity is pretty much the perfect frame target, because most people want him dead. Tell me, was there a better target for a cop to check than clarity? Is there a better target to frame than clarity? The possibility just made sense to me. Of course, clarity could be scum, djo could be a cop, and he could have gotten a legit red read there. Anyway, the whole situation convinced me djo was a cop, not that clarity was necessarily town, but I was pretty sure cop djo got a red read on clarity. | ||
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On November 07 2012 07:14 Alsn wrote: @Rad What do you think about Clarity's case against Obzy? Specifically, what do you think about Clarity making that case on Obzy? Does it make him look more town? or less? @Alsn I don't think I agree with you on sylver's moves during the cheese situation seeming town-motivated, but I'll try to consider it some more so I don't just confirmation bias my way against him due to only my initial read at that time. I think clarity's points about Obzy's apologies are interesting. It's true, he's been extremely apologetic which pushes me to feel bad for him. I don't know how to read that yet because I feel like I was pretty apologetic last game as well, and that was my first game, so i can sympathize. I don't particularly think his other points are great but they're not terrible either. All in all I think the apology thing is an important thing to think about because he really has overdone it. I look forward to some sort of case from obzy on clarity, because if obzy's town, I think he seems like a smart guy who will make a smart case, so if there's a case to be had on clarity maybe he can make it. | ||
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On November 07 2012 07:41 Alsn wrote: Rad I already agree with the fact that Clarity's case against Obzy isn't necessarily wrong. But what I wanted to know was how you thought Clarity making a case on Obzy reflected on Clarity's likelihood of being town/scum. I can't think of any reason he would or wouldn't make the case on obzy that isn't based purely on WIFOM. Null tell. He made a case on obzy, great, I can see town or scum doing that, can't you? Coincidentally it will cause djo to go even crazier against us since I've only FoS'd 3 people since d2 started: obzy, djo, and sylver. | ||
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On November 07 2012 07:40 Clarity_nl wrote: @ Rad and Alsn How do you feel about Obzy's comments specifically addressed to me so far. Let me get back to you on that. I'm not ignoring your question, I just want to think it through. Just wanted to let you know since I'm here replying to other stuff before it. On November 07 2012 07:55 Obzy wrote: (I'm writing in notepad so I don't accidentally delete anything and can save it if I head home halfway through) - Rad, do you legitimately think that Djo's claim is fake? Or are you saying that your two targets are Sylver and myself? (Which is fine, I'm writing my Clar case to help convince you otherwise.) Because I see no reason to disbelieve Djo atm. Obzy, when did I say his claim was fake? I said I was thinking he was cop and the claim surprised me. I've also said his claim is probably real unless someone counter claims. | ||
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On November 07 2012 07:15 Obzy wrote: I'm glad you are posting a case on me, specifically. Heh. Being called out in general gives a clear indication that my posting will be listened to when I respond, but getting called out by you makes my trust of Djo's JK claim increase, since he was been beating his head against you for hours this morning. You posting a case that I know is false makes me believe more in his case, which helps me trust his claim and innocence. A team composed of him and Sylver was only something I mused about if you were town. Maybe you're town and your case against me is just flat-out incorrect, you're just misguided. That's possible. But I think you think that too; you didn't vote. You clearly say "Obzy is Mafia" in fancy red highlighting and you do not vote. >_> @Obzy Regarding the bolded above, are you saying that you think clarity is town because his lack of voting suggests that he probably isn't sure enough about his case enough to vote you? Or am I reading your statement there wrong? I don't see why clarity would think his case is misguided and not vote if he's scum. Or are you claiming some sort of scum slip from him not voting? Mainly "but I think you think that too" is super confusing. If you could clarify what you meant there that would be great. | ||
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On November 07 2012 07:40 Clarity_nl wrote: @ Rad and Alsn How do you feel about Obzy's comments specifically addressed to me so far. So, basically I get a null read on his reply to your case. I need to think more about if the apologies are a tell or not but there's nothing he could have said about them that would have meant anything one way or the other. The question I gave to him above concerns me. I'm not sure how to read it though so I've asked for him to clarify it. Not sure how to take the newbie help advice from him. I don't know that it fits the situation. Basically I think it means that when you're making a case on someone, you don't need to try to convince them they're scum - they already know if they are or aren't - you need to convince the rest of town. But that doesn't really apply to your case against him, and he acknowledges that fact, so not sure why he brought that up. I guess he really just doesn't care about your case on him unless it gains traction? If he thought you were town, maybe he'd care and want to convince you? Seems reasonable as a town, but also could be something a scum would say so null tell I suppose. | ||
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On November 07 2012 08:29 Djodref wrote: @ Rad I would like you to answer my previous questions for you, especially the one with the reference to a possible Clarity PM to marv and the one where I ask you to summarize your scum hunting D1/N1. By the way, the fact that you are using the information that you were not NKed to switch your focus to the people that you were having townreads on in a list that you made ages ago is utter bullshit. Because there is no way for you to know why you not being NKed. Absolutely no way ! Seriously, what was that shit ? Do you personally believe that Clarity is blue ? I will not spend time summarizing my scum hunting d1/n1. If you want to make a case on me, you spend the time, but that would be time poorly spent because I'm town. Remind me what question you had about a clarity PM to marv and if I haven't answered it, and I think it's an appropriate question to answer, I'll do that. Shit happened at night, debears got killed, I instantly had a read. I wanted to put pressure right then and there, so that's what I did. What happened from it? You and me talked for hours. Obzy has broken out of his shell. Not much from sylver yet. My original ideas for why I FoS'd you may be terrible and conspiracy theorist like (or maybe they're spot on, we'll find out soon  ), but you can't deny they got conversation going.I believe clarity is VT. I will be surprised if he's blue, but I will say that there was a moment during the chaos that I read him as blue. ATM I believe VT. I wouldn't be blown the fuck away if he's scum, but I definitely read him town right now. | ||
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On November 07 2012 08:59 da0ud wrote: Morning just catching up with the thread (only bottom of page 64 so far) One quick reaction to your post before I forget. I personally think that if we had confirmed all the VTs it would only have made sense for scum to kill them at night and not the blue. They want to keep uncertainty and don't want to be outnumbered by VTs. I think this is as well the reason Debears got killed cause he is the one who got the most genuine reaction to CC claim. @da0ud What do you think about people claiming right now? Djo seems to think clarity should claim, and probably thinks I should to. Is that a good or bad idea in your opinion for the current state of the game? | ||
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Do you not realize that he just claimed? | ||
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Claiming JK at this point though is really risky though, don't you think? I can't seem to view him as scum after that move, just a confirmation biased blinded JK. Think it was just a coin flip attempt to win? | ||
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Sorry I thought you meant djo. Did not follow that conversation properly. | ||
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On November 07 2012 09:41 Djodref wrote: @ Clarity Who would be Obzy partner in crime in your opinion ? @ Rad Y u no post cases ? I'll play this how I want to. I have no case to post right now, and defending myself all day has been exhausting. I'm waiting on da0ud's thoughts on the question I gave him. | ||
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On November 07 2012 10:09 Djodref wrote: @ Rad So, you are not worried that we are setting up a Clarity lynch ? You were so sure he was town. Why are you not fighting for him anymore ? What would you suggest I do for clarity? If you want to throw out more bad arguments, I'm more than willing to shut them down. | ||
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On November 07 2012 10:20 Djodref wrote: @ Rad I don't know, you could maybe try to find a more suitable target ? On November 07 2012 09:46 Rad wrote: I'll play this how I want to. I have no case to post right now, and defending myself all day has been exhausting. I'm waiting on da0ud's thoughts on the question I gave him. Shit just goes in circles with you. It's truly exhausting. | ||
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@obzy I feel for you man <3 Unless you're scum, then FU for toying with my emotions. | ||
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If clarity claims blue, I'd have to reconsider my current read on him. There was a point that I thought he might be blue, very briefly during the cheese incident, but I'm pretty convinced he's VT or scum now (obviously leaning hard towards VT). Mainly, I don't see why he would PM the host about the issue unless he's VT. If he's scum, he could have lied about the PM, and I feel bad for pointing out the idea of the possibility of a PM before he did. If he had made his PM claim before I pointed out its possibility, he'd be pretty much 100% confirmed to me. There are some reasons I can think of for scum to PM the host about the VT text but they seem very unlikely. Let's say he never claims blue. You probably won't have my vote on him unless something major changes (like a good case on him from someone). Is there some piece of information you could give me to convince me otherwise? You seem to think you've got it all figured out with something you're hiding. | ||
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That helps confirm that he's not blue indeed. Do you have something to help convince me he's not VT? | ||
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On November 07 2012 12:12 Djodref wrote: @ Rad What do you think of this post ? Is it more likely to come from a scum Clarity, a blue Clarity or a VT Clarity ? It's a hypothetical, so I can't really read into it. I agree with him, what if he's blue and you pushed him so hard he had to claim? With you showing why you're sure he's not blue, well, that gives you even more blue credit IMO, but doesn't take away VT potential from him. I do (now) get why you pushed so hard to try to make him claim blue though. | ||
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Because I'm VT and his actions make sense to me from a VT perspective, just as cheese and debears' did during the chaos. Guess I'll put together my VT post now. You asked for it Mr. Blue ^^ | ||
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My trust in him is based on how similarly we seem to be thinking. You'd have to be a VT in this game to understand, I think. Surely anyone who is a VT this game had cheese's same thoughts rush through their mind when they noticed the lack of flavor text. We'd be like this little secret society, you see, that only we'd know about. Perhaps if we were just more experienced at the game we'd know this would be too OP, but we're newbies, and the idea was delicious. Cheese had the thought and ran with it, explained it to debears, debears *high fived* cheese over it, and although I had that same thought at one point in the game, I PM'd the host as soon as cheese dropped the claim the first time. By the time they were high-fiving, I had already gotten back a response, and had been brewing over why a town would be claiming right now. Was he just a VT being wreckless, or a scum trying to get people to claim? Why claim at that point when there's no reason to? Wtf? There's absolutely no reason to claim right then. Is a scum cheese trying to pull some crazy shit? That's what first went through my mind, but i realized that no, there's no fucking way a scum would do this right now, trading scum life for possible (not even guaranteed) information is a terrible trade. I can see how clarity wouldn't have necessarily come to this conclusion though, so he kept his vote on cheese. You need to look at clarity's reactions to cheese during that incident. They don't push blame, they're looking for all the appropriate answers, and everything he did (except not switching to debears) mirrored my own thoughts during the the scenario. Does that mean he's necessarily VT? Nah, but I was right about cheese and debears, and I think I'm right about clarity. Djo, if he flips red, I fully expect to be lynched. But, do you think that's a good scum move to put myself out there so much? Do you think it's a good scum move to constantly defend him against your attacks if we're a scum team? | ||
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On November 07 2012 12:48 Djodref wrote: @ Rad I'll prepare a final case against Clarity. But one more question, do you think it makes sense from a VT perspective to keep for yourself a critical information ? Cheese reaction after his discovery was to believe that he could use the flavor as a way to confirm himself to all the other VTs. I don't see why Clarity would have thought in a different manner just before asking his question to marv. That's why I wanted to know what he exactly asked to marv. I wanted to know how he brought his discovery to the host. Anyway, he gets relevant information and doesn't imagine that another VT could have done the same. His logical reasoning shows that he is mafia here because in his story, he thinks first at the mafia perspective "I can see who is going to fakeclaim" rather than at the VT perspective "i need to share this information". Well, I can say that I didn't share the information I got from marv even though I got it before it all turned into insanity. Why? Because I thought that would straight up out me as a VT. 1 less person in the list of potential blues. Actually during the entire situation, I tried to look as blue as possible because I was afraid other VTs would come out and high five cheese alongside debears. If all VTs do that, along with the scum, but none of the blues do, suddenly it's easy snipe time and no confirmed VTs. I wanted to make sure I didn't come across as VT at that time. It was hectic, and really difficult to make decisions. If I had PM'd marv way earlier, when I realized the potential "secret code" so to speak, I still don't think I would have said "hey guys did you know that everyone knows about the VT flavor!?" I feel like that would out me as VT to the scum, cause the blues should have already known that and probably wouldn't see it as a big deal to announce to everyone. I can see clarity thinking the same thing here. | ||
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On November 05 2012 01:50 Rad wrote: @Djodref apperently you don't understand that if you state that something's a trap, it's no longer a trap. This kind of super odd reasoning is becoming pretty regular from you. It's the same reason why you wouldn't necessarily want to tell someone your pressure vote is a pressure vote (pointing back to your issue with sylver's vote from earlier), and I can't imagine why you'd want to tell people about your trap. Has anyone ever fallen into a trap they knew of? If you can't place your trap without explaining it, maybe you should think of a different idea instead... Anyway, all I get from your "trap" is that you want to be considered super townie enough to take one for town. This could be scum motivated for normal people (though even then, a really stupid scum move I'd think). However, with how poorly we all judged you last game, I can see that as you attempting something different to gain trust because you actually don't know how to naturally gain trust. So, null tell for me in the end, I guess... I purposely misspell apparently, I tend to say @djo except that time, I do not highlight the f in djodref, and IMO that's an awkward use of the word regular (I'd say something like "common" instead, typically). TBH that post was really hard to figure out for me. I had to think of some post with "@djodref apperently" and then fit in the word regular, lol. I don't think you leave a "regular fapper" breadcrumb if you realize that everyone else has that information. Up to you if you believe me though. I think my actions match up with this idea that I'm VT and I believe clarity is VT as well. If you wish to continue to push him, go for it, but I'll need a better case from you because just about everything you've said that I've defended, I did so because you could have had that same case against me, and I know all of those points to not be true because I lived them as a VT. | ||
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I have doubts on alsn and sylver at this point. I hope you can drop your doubts on me with my "evidence" but if not, I understand. | ||
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Alsn is blue or scum. Doesn't matter if I point that out at this point because scum should be able to figure that out with da0ud and myself (and obzy?) claiming. I say this because his reaction to the VT info is: On November 05 2012 08:59 Alsn wrote: Wait, if I'm to understand marv correctly, were some players not aware that the VT role was "regular fapper"? Or what? If he's blue or scum, he thinks that everyone knows of the VT role. It's confusing to him that someone might not know about this. To a VT, the opposite is confusing, that everyone knows about the VT role (unless you PM the host or are just good enough to know this is obviously the case, I guess). (speaking of which, da0ud, if you're blue and I read your VT claim wrong, alsn is scum) If clarity is scum, alsn is NOT scum, because djo blocked him (good point da0ud). So, we can figure out alsn based on a clarity lynch. Alsn probably shouldn't claim right now if he's blue because we get to find out some information from a clarity lynch. OR do we ask alsn to claim now because he was blocked and has to be blue or scum? He should have an old breadcrumb if he's blue and TBH he HAS to be blue or scum based on his reaction I quoted above. If clarity is town, I don't think it says anything about alsn, and at that point we can make him claim. If he's scum and claims wrong, someone else will counter claim. At that point we've at least got it down to 1 of 2 people is scum. We can figure out which and that's 1 scum down. So to summarize, should we (assuming we agree that da0ud, myself, and obzy are all VTs, which makes 5, and djo being 1 blue, so just 1 more town): 1. Lynch clarity to possibly find out more information about alsn? or 2. Ask alsn to claim. This would either force a scum to also claim to save their game (where we'd have to make a choice between the 2), or he'd be scum and clash with a real blue (probably only 2 blues in this game, right?) | ||
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On November 07 2012 13:47 Djodref wrote: @ Rad What do you think about the fact that Clarity never wanted to share the exact question he asked ? @ daoud why would I be scum if Claritg flips town ? @djo I don't know. If he's town, maybe he just didn't think it was appropriate information to give yet (because it would out him as VT)? If he's scum, maybe he didn't know what that PM would be about? It's hard to read. | ||
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I'm trying to find it, but did you see Obzy claim VT? Or were you just describing your own experiences? Seemed like you were pointing out that obzy is frustrated because he's VT with that story of yours. If so, I misread and thought it was obzy VT, and my Alsn plan goes out the window without the extra VT >.> | ||
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On November 07 2012 14:29 da0ud wrote: @ Rad, I am claiming town which is super set of {VT, blue} But yeah from the fact I was like nowhere knowing what was happening with the OP, etc. I think indeed putting me as VT is a safe assumption over blue. @da0ud Alright, forget my alsn plan. What's your backup plan if clarity flips town? It'll say nothing about alsn, or anyone really. | ||
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What do you guys think about getting him to claim? Or do you disagree with my premise that Alsn isn't a VT? | ||
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Thanks, but do you think we should request that alsn claims? Do you think what it would do to this game would be beneficial to town? | ||
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On November 07 2012 14:57 da0ud wrote: If Clarity flips town, most likely I would go for Djodref. Would it make sense for scum Djodref to act the way he has ? not sure. If Clarity flips town, and we will scum Djo next day we will be 2v1 on D4. Could be a strategy of the scum team. And the one taking the less risks now is clearly Syvler. So my plan if Clarity flips town : Djodref then Sylver. Huh so you think djo possibly fake claimed? I think clarity will flip town, so you're suggesting I should suspect djo right now... On November 07 2012 14:58 da0ud wrote: I put him more VT than you, clearly. So no I don't think he should role claim. Except if you want to keep the blue hunting yourself. Seriously? O.o I can see you putting him more TOWN than me, but more VT? My story makes sense from a VT perspective, does it not? His quote doesn't make sense from a VT perspective. You confuse me da0ud. | ||
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On November 07 2012 14:58 Djodref wrote: Let's Alsn decide this by himself. I think it's really nice to have the story of everyone on how they reacted to Cheese claim. I like your story, I like daoud and obzy stories. I dont like Clarity reaction at all to the claim and I can see that sylverfyre has not given his thoughts yet... @djo I don't like leaving it up to alsn. He's not confirmed town and his decision is unreadable. Djo, you're the only confirmed town, so you decide. Should alsn claim or not? If you don't think so, I'll go with clarity vote because that's got the best possibility right now since no one else's lynch has an obvious possibility of confirming anything. If you decide yes, he should claim ("we don't need blues!" didn't you say something like that? so it shouldn't matter), then we'll see his reaction to it based on town pressure. Your call. | ||
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I need to work, better than I did yesterday - yesterday I just defended the shit out of myself and neglected work. Today I need to focus, but I'll try to read and get caught up slowly as well. I have meetings set up from 2:30-5:30 EST today but I'll try to get back and truly focus on everything at 6:30. I'm sure I will have some questions for clarity at some point. I'll probably have to sheep someone tonight but will try my hardest to come to my own conclusion before the lynch. | ||
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Is there a link to 100% djo partner then if clarity flips blue? Alsn could be second cop with him, and probably is since there are no more blue claims. | ||
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No, I need to worry about it now. I get the benefits of if clarity flipped red, but I need to think about the case of him flipping blue, and see if there's a better candidate to lynch based on information given from the flip. At this point, I don't think it's a trust issue anymore, it's probably best to lynch whoever gives us the best scenario afterwards, so thinking about the scenarios is a good idea. | ||
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 ##Vote Clarity | ||
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On November 08 2012 11:08 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Y u no reconsidered ? I understand that you are a stubborn guy but there should have been a limit to the confidence you had in the town read you were having on Clarity. Why did you not comment the post I've indicated you again which were consisting in the best proofs against Clarity ? I did reconsider. I had to throw out all my thoughts about him being VT, but like I said, there was a moment during the cheese chaos that I thought he might be blue. Also, scum clarity NOT at least attempting to ride on my VT story didn't make sense to me. The cop claim was like... what, why would he do that? Is he really cop? So, I held a little hope that he would flip blue and was spending my time thinking about who was the scum if he did (was thinking you and obzy). | ||
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On November 08 2012 11:21 Djodref wrote: @ Rad Why did you say this ? I have my idea but I would like you to tell it first When cheese first claimed Regular Fapper, I kinda freaked. First thoughts were "oh shit someone else realized that the flavor isn't in the OP, is cheese a VT?" but then I started thinking "wait why is he being so blantently obvious about this? Did I miss something? is this common knowledge?" So I checked the OP a few more times and then PM'd the host this question: 11/5 07:08 "Hey, quick question. Did you post the role flavor names anywhere? For example, is the fact that a vanilla townie in this game is called regular fapper mentioned anywhere public? Or do we vanilla townies only know that information right now?" I got a reply back that I didn't quite understand. I PM'd again: 11/5 07:29 "Sorry I'm not following you. Is there anyone in the game other than Regular Fappers that would know for sure that the role of Regular Fapper exists? Since it's not listed publicly, seems like that would be information only a regular fapper would know?" Again, didn't understand marv's reply. So I said: 11/5 07:40 "My reading comprehension must be broken. Are you saying that you sent the term Regular Fapper to other people besides Regular Fappers? Like, to blues and/or scum?" So with that I finally understood. Now I'm pacing around trying to figure out why cheese would have so blatantly claimed. See, before this, I thought it might at some point become a possibility to secretly talk to each other, but didn't think it was a great idea to just post it straight up "Regular fapper!" That seemed sketchy, like a scum would then think "wtf is this guy talking about? oh, fapper, hmm, I wonder if that's what a VT is? seems to fit the flavor..." so I was confused at why cheese was being so open with the term. At that point, I realized that something seemed weird about cheese: On November 05 2012 08:21 Rad wrote: Please excuse my silence. I'm considering Mr. Cheesecake atm. Pretty soon after he spells it out for debears. My response: On November 05 2012 08:31 Rad wrote: Cheese, I've realized you were claiming that, but WHY? What's your motivation to do that at this point in the game? I'm focused on motivation here because super secret card or not, if a bunch of us are suddenly like "Regular fapper power!" (like cheese and debears were doing basically) then scum WILL eventually figure it out. Also notice I say "claiming that" because at that point I'm still trying to be as cautious as I can without straight up saying it, and trying to get the point across to them that they probably shouldn't be talking about this (if I say "hey guys, uhh, everyone in the game knows about the VT text" it straight up outs them, which I'm afraid of doing at his point). Clarity then spells it out, and I'm thinking "ok, well, that's as spelled out as it can get" so my next attempt is to get them to shut up before more VTs come out. On November 05 2012 08:35 Rad wrote: Cheese, why would you claim VT this early? Why would you confirm clarity as VT? You realize if you're right, you're dropping blue targets for mafia NK. On November 05 2012 08:39 Rad wrote: @debears are you suggesting the scum are retarded? How would they have not noticed? I didn't want to bring it up at all once I noticed his claim, and it immediately made me suspicious of him, but everyone suddenly went all stupid so I wanted to put an end to it. No one should be claiming shit right now! Throughout this I'm trying to look as blue as possible (at least that was my intention, not sure if I did). I had hoped at this point that I could paint myself as a NK target since cheese was clear VT to me and debears was possible VT (he became more clear to me at the part with sylver). Also, I was thinking clarity was VT too. So that's 3 VTs and I'm like "shit blue hunting is going to be easy for scum". This is why I laughed at the debears NK, because I thought for sure the scum would have read him as VT. I'll be curious if they realized that and just wanted him dead because they're scared of his potential scum hunting, or if they just didn't get it (might be kinda hard to get if you weren't a VT this game). I didn't think by any means he was anyone's top town read (tbh wasn't I most people's top town read at that point?), so I thought the NK of him was hilarious. | ||
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On November 08 2012 11:57 Djodref wrote: @ Rad And why would you want to believe in his claim ? The counter claim from Alsn, the amount of evidence against Clarity and the fact that he has went AWOL like all caught mafia players do should have been enough to kill any hope that you could foster for a town Clarity. Why did you choose to waste your time on an improbable scenario ? Because I thought he was town? And you pissed me off yesterday. I liked the story of "clarity turns out blue, djo scum, rad wins" better than "clarity turns out scum, djo thinks his confirmation biased arguments were right after all, rad is sad "Also, clarity was clearly going to be lynched. Not much else to talk about there. May as well entertain some other interesting scenarios, some what-ifs, cause that's fun to me and I can get people's thoughts in the meantime (maybe read into them somehow). It's cool getting yelled at for doing that. <3 Fun game, I guess. | ||
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On November 05 2012 09:59 Rad wrote: surprised sylver did not switch to debears when he had a chance On November 05 2012 10:00 sylverfyre wrote: Where was my chance? O.o On November 05 2012 10:00 debears wrote: Just now... On November 05 2012 10:01 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: ##Unvote ##Vote: Debears right there (that's cheese switching back, but you had already had the chance to jump to your biggest scum read - debears - before that) | ||
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I don't think I defended anything against clarity that I didn't think was complete bs (mostly based on the fact that if it was directed towards me, it would have been absolutely wrong, and a lot of your arguments about VT this and VT that could have been pointed towards me instead, for example saying that a VT would have definitely told everyone about the info they got from marv, which I had but did not do). Hell, I don't remember defending him against anyone else but you, because all your arguments pissed me off =P I do think I was confirmation biased for clarity but you really helped push that TBH. Every argument I defended clarity against made me think he was more and more town and you were more and more scum. | ||
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On November 08 2012 13:07 Obzy wrote: Rad - Rather than go into your comments to Djo just now, I'll just swap topics slightly; Are you down with a Sylv lynch tomorrow? Because I'm pretty sure that's the game plan atm. The alternative is you, afaik. Why in the world would you ever hope that somebody flipped blue, if you are town? That very nearly makes me want to vote you first, but I think you just misspoke, rather than it being a scumslip. I think that the depth of your backing of Clarity would be too... Hmmm. I don't think it would make a lot of sense as scum. It's certainly possible, but I'd prefer a Sylv lynch tomorrow. @Obzy Because I'd be happier with djo being wrong and me being right If clarity flipped blue, you and djo are scum (in my head). That sounds more fun, and still gets town the win, cause I would have tunneled the shit out of both of you. Do you realize you got town confirmation with everyone just because of your claim that you didn't really want to play anymore? Actually da0ud's reaction to that made me really suspicious of him. I get shit on like I'm potential scum even though my story and actions line up perfectly throughout the entire game? Think I'm a scum mastermind after 1 game (in which I was town)? I don't know what to think about sylver atm. I also think it probably doesn't matter because he'll be lynched no matter what. And if it's not him, it's me, so why bother thinking about him (you guys are going to take anything I find as potential scum pushing your opinions, and I think everyone here already knows I'm not great at reads, so it's not like I'm going to find anything reading sylver's filters all day). I'm probably going to think more about who's scum if he's not cause that's way more interesting to me. That sort of thing might save us the game if he flips town, cause then it's all eyes on me and I'll have to convince myself out of it to get town the win. If you lynch me, better make a backup plan, cause I'm flipping mfing VT. Scum should NK me or sylver (if sylver's not scum) to make this shit super interesting and at least end on a fun note ^^ | ||
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On November 08 2012 13:12 sylverfyre wrote: Rad, don't you see that the same is true of the accusations Djo is making at me? I think we're looking in the complete wrong direction. Sorry, what are you referring to? | ||
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On November 08 2012 13:52 Djodref wrote: @ Rad You sure understand nothing about scum mentality when it's time to choose a target for the NK Scum is going to lose the game if they keep confirmed blue players (Alsn and me) alive...Let's make something interesting to help you improve, okay ? I've found a lot of interesting things in Clarity's filter and his interactions with the other players. So why don't you go over Clarity's filter once again while keeping in my mind that
Please have a deep look on how Clarity interacts with Obzy, daoud and sylverfyre and post an analysis of his filter. I would not mind some comments on Clarity interactions with you What do you think of it ? It's quite fun to do now that we have more information ^^ Thanks for the attempt at making this interesting to me, but as I've said before, I don't like doing that. I dip back into filters when I remember something I want to re-read but it's really hard for me to sit there and focus on figuring out connections. Also, I read an article on mafiascum site that suggested that reading filters is the biggest waste of time people do. That makes sense to me and coincidentally pushed me towards what I enjoy with the game. I like to catch people in comments that I find odd and discuss it with them. That's fun to me. Coming up with a case isn't. I guess this game might not be for me ^^ But I'm going to stick it out until the end cause I don't quit games (highly competitive). If you guys switch your focus to me, I will absolutely defend myself. But I don't know how to find the last scum except to look at it from what I've read so far and trust my instincts. Clearly my instincts in this game suck btw I made that suggestion to scum not because I think they'd take it, but because I think that would make this super interesting. Don't you think? Imagine "town sylver dies from NK." All eyes point to me don't they? Or is it scum trying to WIFOM you into lynching me? Or "town rad dies from NK." Same story. How do you read that? Obviously you or alsn are going to die. I agree, you're both confirmed blues. But... me or sylver to get NK'd, that shit would be fun. And that's what I like, fun ^^ Stuff like cheese's claim, clarity's claim, that gets me pumped and interested. It's like a detective drama XD Reading through filters? yaaaaaawn. I would be interested to talk to someone who plays this game how I like to play it after this game, if they can do it without spending their entire day (which is what I've been doing). f5f5f5, code code, f5f5f5. That's me most days TT | ||
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You called obzy out on being awkward earlier. Is that just you not really relating to people well? Cause I related to obzy's post back then ^^ | ||
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Yep, I understand and agree with everything you said about who will get NK'd. Just thought it would be cool for the scenario I talked about I don't understand how that is a sylver scum slip but I believe you're town and you were right about clarity when I was wrong so I'll just have to believe you. | ||
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On November 08 2012 15:06 Rad wrote: @djo Yep, I understand and agree with everything you said about who will get NK'd. Just thought it would be cool for the scenario I talked about I don't understand how that is a sylver scum slip but I believe you're town and you were right about clarity when I was wrong so I'll just have to believe you. EBWOP: Just thought it would be cool for the scenario I talked about to happen | ||
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On November 08 2012 15:18 Djodref wrote: @ Rad It's a scumtell, not a scumslip Right now, you are looking very bad because of your hard-defense of Clarity. Even if you have to best explanations in the world for it, and I personally find your explanations and your motivations believable and consistent (the breadcrumb and the PMs to marv give your story much credit), it's going to be difficult for anyone to believe that you are really town and you have to get lynched for defending Clarity like this, sooner or later. So, if you are town, you are the perfect player to keep until lylo (the 2vs1 situation in our case). I don't see why sylverfyre would take you as more genuine than Obzy so I guess that he wants you around, hence buddying you and so on... I don't know if I have explained it well or not... I gotcha djo. Do you think it's possible for me to be a good enough scum to plan out all the VT stuff so perfectly on the spot when cheese claimed, plant a meaningless (except to VTs that were unaware of the other PMs) breadcrumb before any of that happened, and then react exactly how you'd expect a VT to react? This is my second game of mafia, do you think that's a realistic scum plan (hey scum partner clarity even though we realize everyone else knows the VT flavor text because we're scum and marv PM'd it to us, I'm going to plant it as a breadcrumb just in case some stupid VT doesn't realize it and makes a big deal out of it, but you shouldn't do that, instead you should probably claim blue or something at some point since it would make us look super suspicious otherwise, unlike my plan of defending you for the entire game against arguments that don't make sense vs a newbie VT)? Or maybe you're unsure if this is really my second game? Look at me last game, do you think I was looking so far into the future for a scum game one day that I just played like a newbie so I could eventually lay down the perfect master scum plan (in another newbie game!)? I mean seriously, I don't get how my story doesn't confirm me lol, unless you think I'm just THAT GOOD. I don't get how obzy's pity case is more confirming than my entire game VT case. Show me anyone else in this game that has their entire game that figured out and clearly able to explain it, even with the WTF moment that cheese brought into the game where I acted perfectly VT. Am I master scum or am I just a super honest newbie VT that can explain his entire story with ease because it's real? If sylver flips town (yeah, I'm speculating, let's do it), do you really think it's me over obzy? Or even da0ud? Yeah, I said he's got balls of steel from the debears move, but that could have been scummy balls of steel. I have no idea at this point cause I suck at figuring that out. | ||
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We have no other blue claim. Isn't it pretty unlikely that there's only 1 blue in this game? | ||
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I understand obzy thinking da0ud's town. Those balls of steel. I think it's possible that move may have been a lucky coin flip though. Not saying I suspect da0ud atm, but if it comes down to it, that point in time isn't convincing enough to confirm him as town to me. See, that's the kind of interesting scenario I think I'd like | ||
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On November 08 2012 16:13 Djodref wrote: @ Rad I wish your reads were as good as your defense To be honest, I don't think that you are scum, everything in Clarity's filter indicates to a partnership with sylverfyre. Lynch this bastard and it's going to be GG. Thanks for your post though... Going to go with that sylver vote just like I did with the clarity vote. Lead me mr. confirmed blue... I can defend myself all day as town cause it's ezmode. I'm a super honest guy IRL so I never have to worry about covering my back Unfortunately I'm also super trusting so I can't play this game worth a shit. | ||
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I might play more TL mafia games in the future, but going to take a break for now. I'm serious about it being pretty life consuming for me, and I don't think I could come across as nearly as town as I guess I did without keeping up to date with every single thing that happens and remembering it all so I can make good statements on the fly. I'll obs some cause then I can play but not play, and maybe see people's thought processes for determining alignment. I'd be interested in some faster games I think, though not sure how they'd play out properly that guessing alignment wasn't just a complete coin flip. I wonder how the game would have played out if VTs knew that everyone else knew from the start (well, and if blues did know from the start as well, since apparently they didn't until a certain point, and what I got from marv was that they did know). The bit about blues not knowing the VT flavor until later is interesting though and now I know why you guys were both 100% confirmed to each other, and why you were so sure clarity was scum. I can see why my VT case wasn't quite as strong due to that fact also. I truly did only defend clarity against things that if directed at me, were straight up wrong, (VT would do this, VT wouldn't do this, etc) and I think the game goes a lot differently without those arguments ever existing (for one, I wouldn't have spent an entire day wasting my time defending a scum). I'm most impressed with Obzy I think. I had the idea running through my head that you were TOO good with your assessments and ability to "look town" to be newbie town. You had to be scum and your skill had to be coming from close interactions with your scum coach. I remembered last in the scum QT the coach talked a looottt so I was thinking... obzy posts very infrequently, they're very thought out posts, and he's convinced everyone with a pity case that will probably never be broken. Scum! I think sylver could have convinced me of obzy or da0ud being scum lol. I'm so bad. If clarity had just claimed VT instead of blue, I'd have defended him to his death XD Ok anyway, GG. | ||
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PM me to play if you get one though :D | ||
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