EPTz-boson mafia. Just gotta find his buddy.
GSL Mini Mafia III
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
z-boson mafia. Just gotta find his buddy. | ||
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austinmcc
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Haven't played with drazak or v7, although I've read some of the games that v7 played on TL. Looking forward to this game though, the format was interesting for the others, even if SOMEONE went and killed me early in the one I played. There was some chat in obs and post-game after GSL Open 2 that everyone should read. We treated too many days as 72-hour days, never made the instant majority system work for us in that game. I don't want to play overly scared of votes or hitting majority, and I don't support any kind of policy where we're FOSing or some other pseudo-vote. I'd much prefer we vote, vote for reasons, and be held accountable for those votes and reasons. + Show Spoiler + nick being Nick 'breakycpk' Caras = /slowclap | ||
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austinmcc
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On October 20 2012 12:21 DarthPunk wrote: If he is scum it would have made him uncomfortable and potentially reduces his options. It was obviously a throwaway line but like most things I post there was some further motivation behind it. Not just: 'what role r u?LOLOLOL' It was some small amount of pressure early. No blue is going to claim. No scum is going to claim. People are reading way too much into this. If no blue is going to claim and no scum is going to claim, then what does this post even mean.... On October 20 2012 10:09 DarthPunk wrote: Every scum is going to claim green. If I ask role instead of alignment he can't fake claim later. | ||
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austinmcc
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On October 20 2012 12:26 DarthPunk wrote: Exactly everyone one is going to claim progamer. So what is the difference between asking their role and asking their alignment? Absolutely nothing aside from the fact that I thought if drazak happened to be scum it might put slightly more pressure on him. This post was like at the very start of the game. I was putting on some small amount of pressure in order to stimulate discussion. If you don't like it. Too bad. I agree that this isn't really a scummy thing to have done, just a dumb one, but I think MOST of the reason we're getting on your case is that you basically claimed you were DOING something with it, that this somehow kept people from fakeclaiming: On October 20 2012 10:09 DarthPunk wrote: Every scum is going to claim green. If I ask role instead of alignment he can't fake claim later. when that's not true. You sort of made up a weird reason to justify your weird question, and are now going with a different explanation for your weird question. | ||
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austinmcc
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On October 20 2012 12:37 DarthPunk wrote: No. That is bullshit. There was a reason I asked role instead of alignment. Because it didn't matter and I thought there was an additional benefit in asking role in that it would make it far more uncomfortable for scum to fake claim later. As they would have to fake claim and be instantly under scrutiny for lying. A blue is always going Claim if they need to because they are telling the truth Ergo: The only difference in my mind between pressuring by asking role over alignment would be dissuading scum from fake claiming by causing that to be an awkward proposition. I shouldn't have said 'can't' that is obviously false. I should have said dissuade. All blues will say they're green. All scum will say they're green. Later, Blues will claim blue, "because they are telling the truth." Scum will "be dissuaded from fake claiming" because "they will instantly be under scrutiny for lying" Somehow scum will be under scrutiny for lying, but blues won't be under scrutiny for lying? Or scum will somehow feel that, by telling you in the first hours of the game that they were vt, they now can't claim to be anything else? Your reasoning just doesn't make sense. Moreover, if your goal is to make scum feel pressure somehow, you'd ask everyone in thread. If the goal is to "put pressure on scum" in your mind, you'd make sure that you asked your question to everyone. By asking only one person, you're saying you wanted to put pressure on scum, when really you have no idea if you did that or not. | ||
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On October 20 2012 13:13 DarthPunk wrote: What do you think Austin? It was my second post of the game. I thought he had a 2/9 chance of being scum. Honestly. You say you asked because it would make him less likely to fakeclaim later in game. But you asked only him. Why would you ask only drazak, in order to make him uncomfortable with fakeclaiming later, if you didn't think he was scum and had no more reason to suspect he'd be fakeclaiming then anyone else? That's why I'm asking. The question sounds dumb, and I expect your answer to be "No, he had the same 2/9 chance as anyone." It just makes your explanation...still weird. | ||
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austinmcc
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On October 21 2012 06:24 Z-BosoN wrote: lol, my vote was a pre-game joke. ##Unvote Let's not die guys. This game will take forever if it's this inactive. Austin, you've played with Kei in liquid city. What do you make of him? I don't remember kei in LC tbh. I was mostly inactive D1, came back looking at those couple specific people, died before I had a good handle on the full game. Kei from Aperture 2 I feel like is a solid townie as far as being active, looking town, once the game starts. Not...the type of player who takes advantage of that, though? Basically was the towniest person in game, was going to get protection, but kind of let spammier people take over and direct the flow of the game, and noticed that that was happening (kei, your game was much more fun when we were scumhunting than claiming/solving the game bit). I expect some good and insightful posts from him, but I haven't seen him be particularly aggressive. I think we also played...rockband? And maybe another game? I'll have to look through. I don't have a big meta handle on keirathi, but I'm also not generally good at catching people via meta or even USING meta. I mainly focus on picking out odd questions, or questions that never got pursued. That seems to be when I'm most effective, and so I'm going to try and mine the thread hard for things that stick out. Right now, and I haven't looked at his past play recently, but v7 is sticking out to me somewhat. The DP stuff was EASY to mine for activity last night, poke at it poke at it poke at it. And very safe too, because the way he started to flop around felt townie, so you could attack attack attack and just say "Eh, his flopping around townie." A couple of us did that, but DP has almost only talked about his past games and the DP stuff last night. (AND THEN HE MAY HAVE SPOILED GSL, UNSURE, I AIN'T CLICKING THAT UNTIL I WATCH) There's nothing more than that to go on, but out of all the people who have some posts, his feel like there's the least in them. Not relevant to anything that's happening, but spoilered for DP and so thread can see my thought process: + Show Spoiler + On October 20 2012 14:00 DarthPunk wrote: So what you are saying is that me asking the only person in the thread at that point makes less sense than calling for a mass claim 30 mins into day one. 0_o I asked if you thought he was scum because of this On October 20 2012 13:20 DarthPunk wrote: If there was even the slightest chance that draz was scum and would be less comfortable fake claiming it was a better play than the alternative IMO. I am done with this. You don't agree. so be it. If you didn't have any particular reason to believe draz was scum, then I was uncertain why you'd only ask HIM to roleclaim. The logic that this was a better play than not asking people would hold true for everyone, so if you were REALLY hanging your hat on "asking and making them claim VT is helpful" then you should have been asking EVERYONE, unless you had particular scumreads. That's why I ask, because that logic that you gave wasn't draz-specific, yet your question WAS draz-specific. There's a disconnect there, that I felt like would be addressed if you actually thought he was scum. I think asking ONE person this thing that you think is good to get answers to is weird, because you SHOULD be thinking it's good to ask every person in the game that. | ||
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On October 21 2012 07:59 marvellosity wrote: Hi guys! This game started at like an anti-timing for me. I've just read through the thread but I'm somewhat drunk so I don't really remember very much. Basically nothing overly productive is gonna happen until I sit down properly tomorrow, but if anyone wanna asks me anything in particular before I beddify shortly then I'm game. + Show Spoiler + Lots of gin and then wine after winning my county chess match today Hapa (i;m easly pleased). Managed to outplay this dude so hard and even had a brainfart in the middle of the game and gave away a whole rook and still won :x I'm just gonna note that the SC2 personalities are town here, and the LoL (non-SC2) personalities are anti-town. Chess is not SC2. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. | ||
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austinmcc
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##Vote: vaderseven Much of your posting is just about DP last night, and everyone seems to have concluded that DP is town because of how he explained/tried to explain himself. That was just easy activity and an easy way to make it look like you cared about something. That applies to me too. We can all be suspicious of EVERYONE who has basically only been active for that. drazak. There was a lot of discussion about DP last night. In light of that discussion, do you still feel that your vote is on scum? If so, why? If not, out of the players who were poking at DP tonight, who looks the scummiest in the way they interacted with DP? | ||
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austinmcc
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In my mind, that makes him less likely to be scum than the rest of us who took you to task for your question. If scum wanted to use that bit of time to get active and look like they were contributing, I don't expect they'd have done so by looking so weird with that vote. | ||
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was in response to DP about Drazak | ||
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On October 21 2012 09:45 drazak wrote: So scum are wishywashy (if I unvoted you), but deciding to keep pressure on you is also scummy? You sir are trying to set a trap to catch a townie, not catch scum. A bunch of people said they don't think he's scum. YOU said you don't think he's scum. Your vote isn't causing pressure. Your vote just looks weird, seeing as you're saying you want to keep it on a townie. What a strange start. | ||
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austinmcc
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out of the players who were poking at DP last night, who looks the scummiest in the way they interacted with DP? | ||
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On October 21 2012 13:11 DarthPunk wrote: Bleh. If you are reading him as town we are on completely different pages. Which townie in their right mind would keep a vote on someone they think is not scum? There is not rationalising that action with a townie mindset. Any time I see this argument now, I think of it like this: Would a townie keep a vote on someone he said is not scummy? No. Which a mafia keep a vote on someone he said is not scummy? No. I don't think the action makes sense as either town OR scum, so it's not helpful to get a read on him. But I think if oversimplifying if you only ask what townie would to that, because you're ignoring that it doesn't make sense for scum either. | ||
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austinmcc
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On October 21 2012 13:14 Hapahauli wrote: It's a similar read to my read on you really. Newer townies aren't "tainted" sometimes have very creative reasons for voting people. In this case, Drazak is saying he's keeping his vote on a null read to generate discussion - I don't agree completely with the rationale, but I don't find that mindset scummy. But it's good that you don't agree with me - it generates discussion and whatnot. I have more faith in Drazak's explanation than you do. Either way, I do want to hear more from him on the subject - can't hurt. hapa thinks non-new townies are "tainted." Not a townie mindset. Scum hapa! | ||
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DP didn't make a joke. Guilty conscience. Hapa/DP scumteam. | ||
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On October 22 2012 00:13 DarthPunk wrote: It is my natural inclination to want to lynch a townie because this ensures your survival for another day. VE knows this. That's why he looks at people who jump on a wagon like Draz did very closely. I even fell for it last game. It's your natural inclination to want to lynch a townie. Yes. It is NOT normal for you to say "Let's lynch a townie." There's a huge difference. You say, "This guy (and I don't want to tell you this, but he's totes town) looks scummy for x and y, I think we should vote him." You do not go, "Attention town, I think this guy is townie, let's lynch him." The vote on someone you explicitly say doesn't feel scummy is NOT good townie play. But it's NOT good scum play. Again, look at it from both sides. It's not that the vote makes no sense from a townie, it's that the vote makes no sense from either alignment. Therefore, you can't get a read off it; it's null. | ||
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On October 22 2012 00:21 marvellosity wrote: Dear austin, Please would you start being more obscure and absent. I wish to have my customary scumread on you. Sincerely, marvelbabe It's worrying me too. I had started to find you scummy in LC because you hadn't said I was scummy and disinterested, until you finally did later in the day. | ||
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On October 22 2012 00:31 marvellosity wrote: On a somewhat serious note, you are more involved than I'm used to seeing out of you in the first portion of a Day 1. Anything in particular prompted that, dear? Yes, I think that's mainly prompted by your being absent from thread for like 40 hours. If you'd been here all of D1, I don't think you'd be seeing me as active. I know I don't feel like I've been particularly active yet. As to me, yeah. I feel like I played super poorly in GSL Open 2, but had good reads at the end (TOWN Y U NO SHEEP ME!?). I feel like I played pretty poorly in LC. Pretty poorly in Looney Lynching. Attempting to play a little better this one. | ||
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On October 22 2012 00:52 DarthPunk wrote: Also ZB. Postgame I would like to go through how you make such accurate reads on me all the time. It get's frustrating as scum. (and also hilarious) It's mainly because Z-BosoN is ALWAYS scum and so he knows alignments. | ||
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On October 22 2012 01:02 DarthPunk wrote: Austin any reads aside from a not scum Draz? Right at the moment, a town read or two, finding this whole v7 thing very odd but keeping my vote on him. I'll note that I like your response to the atmosphere of the thread. I typed out a stupid post earlier about how there were so many jokes, and it was a lovely town atmosphere, but it was too nice and we were chatting too much and not poking around enough. | ||
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On October 22 2012 03:20 Z-BosoN wrote: Pretty much. It's more of the tone of his posts. On Liquid City, note how he finds a small breach in detail and immediately tunnels on it. He did the same thing in LVII against me. He demonstrates an aggressive, investigative style. This isn't what I'm viewing from him this game. He's being passive and inconclusive on his reads. His only vote is deemed a "provocation" one. I do not view it as a real attempt at pressure, and his general filter seems off. In my mind the townie austin would have been all over drazak or DP over something such as has happened in this game. Hmmm. I'm glad I don't seem crazy tunnelly. Look at Looney Lynching and my play there, or my comments in obs chat. Yes, I've been exceptionally tunnelly in some recent games. It didn't work out well. I'm curious though, why would you think townie austinmcc would be all over drazak or DP? | ||
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On October 22 2012 04:33 Z-BosoN wrote: Yea, so should we lynch him because of it? I'm not voting him purely for not posting. Right now, and I haven't looked at his past play recently, but v7 is sticking out to me somewhat. The DP stuff was EASY to mine for activity last night, poke at it poke at it poke at it. And very safe too, because the way he started to flop around felt townie, so you could attack attack attack and just say "Eh, his flopping around townie." A couple of us did that, but [v7] has almost only talked about his past games and the DP stuff last night. (AND THEN HE MAY HAVE SPOILED GSL, UNSURE, I AIN'T CLICKING THAT UNTIL I WATCH) There's nothing more than that to go on, but out of all the people who have some posts, his feel like there's the least in them. Much of your posting is just about DP last night, and everyone seems to have concluded that DP is town because of how he explained/tried to explain himself. That was just easy activity and an easy way to make it look like you cared about something. That applies to me too. We can all be suspicious of EVERYONE who has basically only been active for that. Those are my initial posts. Basically, I just looked at the people that called out DP on his weird "what's your role" question. During that discussion, I would assume at least one of our scum became active, it's an easy way to be active in thread, to blend in with town. v7 in particular had done almost nothing outside of poke at DP. Out of what we've actually got to work with, v7 sticks out to me mainly because his posting fits the bill for how I'd think a scum would engage in that discussion. Chiming in, saying the same things we're all saying. Also he may or may not have posted GSL spoilers. I still haven't watched although I'm an idiot and let TL and reddit spoil the outcome. Super anti-town. | ||
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On October 22 2012 04:45 Z-BosoN wrote: Well, as you yourself said, a lot of people jumped on DP for this. You removed blame on them because they continued to post and make contributions. So in a way, the fact that he isn't posting when ONLY having done that in this game is why people want him dead right now. Since he hasn't posted yet, I'm concluding that he's not reading the thread, and not really giving a damn. Marv, what say you? Here's an overly wordy explanation of my thoughts, spoilered because this ends up being very long - + Show Spoiler + Question is on pg. 2 of the game. iamperfection is the first to point it out, calls it blatant blue hunting, votes DP.
I was gonna do the same thing for his way of asking me, but I wasn't sure if I wanted to be the first vote.
On October 20 2012 10:04 Hapahauli wrote: Dayum fireworks are flying already. As much as I'd love to join the gangbang, I ain't going to vote DP for a stupid reason like that.
At this point, DP explains himself, says every scum will claim green and if he asks role then scum can't fake claim later. DP also proactively asks iamperfection if he's happy with that explanation (townie), and sort of pokes at him for dropping a vote and leaving. z-boson comes in, says scum don't ask people if they are blues, calls it a null-tell
At this point, before v7 enters, IF I were certain there was one scum in the people who had commented/voted, I'd find hapa the likely candidate. But then v7 comes in. On October 20 2012 12:10 vaderseven wrote: v7 thinks DP's explanation is too scummy to be true, and it's just stupid. He's written off DP's answer as stupid. Then saysReally you stand by that? You don't care about the alignment someone claims (and why should you at this stage of day 1, it would be joke posts at best)... and you want to peg someone on either claiming their role or lieing about in thread. When asked to explain it you don't fall back on 'jokepost lol' and instead give us this line about setting someone up to be caught in a lie? I r confused. Thats like too scummy in a bad way to be possibly true. I have to write it off as just stupid. On October 20 2012 12:11 vaderseven wrote: When drazak already answered the question. Seems odd that he's read DP's question, read DP's explanation, but have entirely missed drazak's answer. He doesn't actually know what all happened, but he's on DP's case anyway.Draz, I hope you are smart enough as either green or blue (assuming you are one of those) to not bother answering that question. Keirathi then pops in to comment on v7's post: On October 20 2012 12:19 Keirathi wrote: He's much more forceful in what he's saying. "I call bullshit" "There were many acceptable replies...yours was not one of them."I completely agree with vader here. I mean, DP, what if Draz is a blue. What do you expect him to say? Of course he's not going to claim a blue role (I hope), a few hours into day 1. So, he claims Progamer. Then he gets close to lynch, and says "Okay, I'm actually Nestea. Don't lynch me!". What are you going to do, lynch him because he lied and said he was progamer 3 hours into the game? I call bullshit. You know that everyone is going to claim progamer just the same as everyone is going to claim green. There were many acceptable replies iamp's accusation. Yours was not one of them. Actually keirathi's response is also interesting to me. iamperfection votes DP, for reasons keirathi seems to agree with. Keirathi calls DP's response bullshit and unacceptable, and...that's it. There's no vote, no FOS, no further comment. "You have given a bullshit/unacceptable response to a vote...carry on." Kind of odd to me. Kei doesn't comment any further. Doesn't follow-up on this. But v7 putters around slightly more On October 20 2012 12:42 vaderseven wrote: This isn't any new information. It's just sort of gratuitous piling on.You seem to not get that scum would just the very obv thing of claiming green now without a care for the future. Fake claims are not prepared this far in advance. Thats such a "duh" that I am pretty sure anyone trying to think about your statement would have come to that conclusion. Okay so...if I really break everything down, post-by-post, I also don't like keirathi's participation in the whole bit. v7 and keirathi, both look scummy to me based on this, hapa not really because others limped in after him with even worse posts. Hapa pops back in later to comment, quick comment, gives his thoughts, gets out. | ||
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austinmcc
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On October 22 2012 04:51 Hapahauli wrote: Regarding Austin Just like Marv, I'm really really good at wanting to mislynch town-austin every time we're in a game together. However unlike marv, I don't get townie vibes from his filter so far. This post especially is strange: It's divided into three parts: 1) Meta-talk on Kei 2) stuff on v7/DP 3) Explanation of thought process to DP 1) He really doesn't say anything here. I think he's capable of doing this as town though, and he mentions that he's not very big on meta. This is fine. 2) This starts to get a bit weird, and I can't follow the logic at all. He says v7 is sticking out to him, and then talks about the DP situation for the entire paragraph. 3) This strikes me as a defensive impulse. I dont' understand why austin would get defensive here or really bother to explain his actions when no one was suspecting him for it. Overall, austin's D1 play this game is more active, and I haven't seen it before and don't know what to make of it. However, I do find him slightly scummy because of the above post and want some answers. Wat? You "want some answers"? You didn't ask any questions... See the spoilered post above for full thought process and why I pick out v7 and also now keirathi, when I comb back over the DP stuff. They didn't vote, they sort of dawdled around commenting on the situation and then left. Not as invested in attacking DP as iamperfection with the early call-out and vote, didn't follow-up with final thoughts like you did later. They just stand out compared to the other people who commented. (3) is me not liking what I think is bad logic. But I can understand why some of my questions may sound odd at times, and that's the explanation. It's not relevant overall, but I don't want to leave it til postgame. I'm uncertain how you find it "defensive," as it just explains why I asked a slightly odd question. Nobody called me scummy for that, nobody even pointed it out except in DP's answer he kind of joked it off, like it wasn't a serious question. That spoiler explains why the question was serious. | ||
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On October 22 2012 05:32 marvellosity wrote: nuh uh sweetie, this is what happens when people don't read and process what's been written properly. In my longish post having read the thread for the first time I said: which is basically what you were saying about the DP situation but worded slightly differently, and it's what I had taken from your posts. Maybe it was easier for me to understand as I'd read similar things from the DP affair as you had. Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan. What do you make of keirathi's post in the middle of the DP stuff? | ||
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On October 22 2012 05:50 marvellosity wrote: Yet to reread his full filter after that spoilered bit. I've give him a full look later tonight.I'm not exactly sure. A couple of posts later in his filter he explains he was just calling out bullshit and didn't read anything alignment-y from it. But then if that's the case, then the contributions were just pointless and not really contributions. I think Kei is playing pretty scummily - but what gives me pause is in his recent post, he just told town he doesn't really have any reads. Given he's under some pressure, it makes little sense for a scum Kei to do that. But then I find myself going around in stupid little wifom circles. What do you think? | ||
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I do not see why there should be a clock on v7, except for the activity/modkill clock. If you find him scummy, you should be voting him. If you don't, then how is he magically scummy because x number of hours has passed. Judge for yourself whether his conduct and his absence is scummy or not, but a couple more hours of absence shouldn't lead to a different read imo. | ||
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On October 22 2012 07:41 marvellosity wrote: austin, I'd like to hear what you (and anyone else) has to say about Kei before I get my voting shoes on. In a 9 player game, having 1 player who basically refuses to give us anything to hold him accountable to (i.e. reads) it's a fucking liability. Actually I'd really like to hear what drazak has to say about Keirathi. Gonna be more or less away for a few hours but I saw this and gave him a cursory read. He continuously responds to some of the same stuff over and over. I don't make anything of that, but it's the biggest takeaway I have from his filter "People keep bringing up the same things, he keeps addressing those concerns and dismissing them." I dunno where that fits into his normal behavior, but it's null to me. That's ... about it? My biggest takeaway from my filter is that I have this thought about him and it's not alignment-determinative. I'd like to hear what he thinks about DeePgate overall, not about DP himself but about the rest of us who interacted with him. And hopefully there's enough recent action that he can comment on someone. I agree that not having anything to hold someone accountable to is a liability, but I don't want to vote someone for being a liability right now. I'll think more about his earlier response, but right now I'm happier with a v7 lynch than keirathi? | ||
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On October 22 2012 09:30 Keirathi wrote: A complement by calling me scum? LOL Anyways, I always find it extremely hard to get a solid grasp on anyone in day 1. And I've almost gotten lynched for it like 3 times. I mean, I know it's my fault, bu it just gets extremely tiring. But I'm not going to force reads that I don't believe in either. I tried that before and got called out too. I would rather be indecisive than pretend to be decisive and be wrong. D1 this game is different than D1 in other games. At this point, we'd be past D1 in a normal game. Moreover, it's a very small game. We have 9 players. 1 of those 9 is AWOL. Coming from one person who is normally awful at participating and being active D1...this isn't a game where we can afford it. | ||
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I want to lynch someone. Maybe I'm bloodthirsty, maybe I agree that it's easier to work with flips, maybe I just want the game to move forward so we can actually play mafia instead of D1 hand-holding or whatever it is we're up to. But I would like to lynch a player, sooner, rather than later. I think there are benefits and drawbacks to both town and scum if we let D1 drag on forever, and probably only drawbacks to hosts. As much as I want to keep swapping votes around and see how quickly blazinghand can give updated votecounts...we're not making the setup work for us. We're just dithering around and doing very little. So I propose we lynch a player. Right now, the player that I want to lynch is v7, see vote. I will look closer at keirathi and hapa while at work today, and going to look marv over as well. If I want to lynch any of them more than v7, then I'll swap my vote and try to drum up support. But this is getting silly and we're all LETTING it get silly. I would like others' thoughts on this. I don't think an infinite-length D1 actually helps us, and I don't think it makes everyone invested in the game. Look at how lazy most of the thread is, because there's no pressure to do anything. Don't want to contribute? Okay. Just contribute tomorrow, deadline is infinite, no problems guys. That is TRUE, but it's crap, and it's not useful to us imo. btw, apart from my normal paranoia, this is one thing that makes me suspicious of marv. I know he doesn't like to play setup games, but I would expect townmarv to be a little more bloodthirsty, be pushing someone a little more, and not be willing to play infinite D1 pattycake. Am I the only one with this thought? Are people just worried to type it out because "let's lynch someone NOW, instead of later with more information" feels like it might be anti-town? | ||
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On October 23 2012 00:36 DarthPunk wrote: And now I don't want to lynch him at all. The him here is in reference to v7? | ||
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On October 23 2012 02:08 Hapahauli wrote: Agree here, I'd like a flip as well. However, I do want to wait until we here some from v7. I think shooting for a 72-hour day at this point is realistic. We are already at ... 65 hours. Moreover, at least in GSL 2, thinking in terms of 72-hour days, or any specific time limit, instead of "We are the town and we should be lynching scum, at whatever point we find them" was not helpful to us. I strongly believe that some of the apathy that seems to be a part of this game is because of the deadlines. There is no deadline rush, there is no reason for people to have to act NOW. Waiting x numbers of hours to do something, or aiming to end a day at a certain point in time, is malleable and generally has not been productive for us. Once I go back through things and figure out who I'm willing to lynch, I feel like I'm just going to conclude all my posts with On March 13 2012 07:02 Palmar wrote: Blood for the Blood God Skulls for the Skull Throne | ||
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v7: Find his return posts null. Sure, there's less information D1. But that's true for all of us. It's not a reason not to contribute, and I've yet to see a game play out where someone pushes a D1 candidate, D1 candidate flips town, and the pusher is immediately beset upon by the whole town with pitchforks in a lynching spree. I still don't like the early interactions, I still wasn't voting him because of inactivity. Others seem to have been doing that though, and I actually don't want to push for a lynch in which some/many of the votes are going to be because of inactivity. I don't care if he was inactive in a town game, or a scum game, or whatever. The inactivity isn't really something I get a tell off of, only that I expect scum to have done something during a certain time frame, and he did something during that time frame. Less so than before, because the way in which he's posted recently feels so null that I wouldn't expect that from a scum player coming back to thread? I'd expect either townie-smelling or scummy-smelling posts, and his were neither imo. Less scummy on him than before because of this, and so not going to push for a lynch on him when I don't like the reasoning behind some of the votes. hapa: Eh. Don't want to lynch. Voting a lot, which I like. Made an odd case/post on me, which felt odd, but not quite "forced." Will watch, but without going into oodles of detail, not a player I want to lynch today. drazak: His filter so eeeeeeeeempty. Basically no scumreads until yesterday, when v7 is scummy beause of inactivity (still don't like as a basis for a read). Then keir is "probably a little scummy" because of over-reaction and because of calling drazak scummy and then defending him. I keep writing off DP when he says he finds drazak scummy, but there's really no scumhunting in the guy's filter and what is there doesn't feel meaty. Not the amount, your filter can have small amounts of scumhunting meat, but it feels like drazak's filter is all vegetables. See previous post about blood and skulls, vegetables have neither. I think you've been chided enough, or whatever, drazak, but it would be helpful if you would just toss more thoughts into thread. Either people you find scummy, or at the very least cases you like, reads you like, interesting things you're noting. Yes, some people will call you scummy for sheeping a case or a read or whatever, but who cares. Get active, get bloodthirsty. You're currently difficult to read but I'm not convinced you're scum. Overall, do not want to lynch, but after reading through his filter I'm more inclined to view him as mafia. That probably sounds wishy washy. I don't care. Keirathi and Z-BosoN thoughts coming, but splitting up these posts because thoughts on them will be longer. | ||
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On October 23 2012 02:37 Hapahauli wrote: Oh damn seriously? Time flies huh. Well I still want to wait for v7 to post. Also Z-Boson in light of recent suspicions. I agree, but what's the remedy? Any suggestions how to take care of this? (1) not suggesting we wait x hours (2) getting scum to concede We have no way of FORCING activity. We have no vigilantes to add town KP. We're stuck with what we have. The solution is to hope we've got a doc who can save an active townie or two, because at this rate if we lose 2 or so active townies to NKs then the game is going to go downhill FAST. (3) Here's what I think the ACTUAL solution is. We discuss options for a little longer, and then we actually lynch someone. I would prefer to lynch scum, but will settle for scummy at this point even. We just came out of a game that was crappy because of our own inactivity. This game was an invite game, in part, to cure that. And yet we're in a very similar situation. The solution is NOT to get angry and berate low activity players. The solution is not for every player to fill a post or two or three with whining about inactivity. The solution is for us to take it upon ourselves to craft an environment where people want to contribute, and do so. So I think we lynch. I think we move forward. I think we all get our thoughts in the open, even if we think someone is going to leap on them for being scummy. Like, I was dithering yesterday over whether to just come out and suggest we lynch someone, even if it's a townie. I think we need that. I think we need to quit worrying about what's scummy or townie or anything, and get thoughts into the thread. We don't immediately gang up on anyone and shut them down if they post something scummy, because that actually seems to have been counterproductive. Everyone just stop being afraid of posting something, looking scummy, whatever, and play the game. Bolded for my main thoughts. | ||
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I wrote some stuff here but it was super wishy-washy and it's just my thoughts that don't go anywhere. So instead, could you update your read on iamperfection, in long-form? He's not being talked about, but you said he felt "kind of town" and noted that you felt confident in meta-reading him. Could you just blabber on in a post or two about what read you get from him based on his play this game and based on meta? | ||
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On October 22 2012 04:25 Z-BosoN wrote: Because some elements of what they said I figured you would be immediately on their tail. Z-BosoN, could you answer this in more detail? Why would townie austin have been all over drazak and DP for their early posting? | ||
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On October 23 2012 03:32 Z-BosoN wrote: Austin, in LVII you were going after me because I was asking about certain roles. Oh, and some other things that pretty much included everything I said. In Liquid City you went after me because I talked to Node. Do I really need to be more specific than that? Yeah. I don't get where the Node stuff fits in. That was like...a one-time thought I've had (although I hope to find something like that again actually, just not where the person referencing the player I find scummy is doing so because the person I find scummy directly answered a question they asked). But that's off to the side. I'm just...I can see the role stuff. So that's a reason I might have been on DP's case. Why drazak? And is it just that I was on you for asking about roles and DP was asking drazak his role? In my head those are slightly different things, in that DP wasn't asking questions but was just pure pure pure fishing. That may not be a difference that matters. But why drazak? | ||
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On October 23 2012 03:34 Keirathi wrote: It's pretty easy. Note the bolded. Scum iamp doesn't say things like that that could potentially make him look bad. It's basically the same read I had on him in Aperture, where I was wrong. The key difference, I think, is that he only had 4 posts and I made a snap judgement rather than basing it on an overall pattern, partly because GSL2 was still going on at the time and I was convinced he was scum in that game (which I was right about). He is very distinctly more carefree as town, while being careful as scum. Of course, I've told him this multiple times so he could potentially try to play differently, and his recent posting regarding me and v7 seems much more careful than his posting earlier in the day. So, I'm still slightly town on him and wouldn't want to lynch him today. If he is scum trying to play differently, I don't think he'll be able to keep it up for long. Thanks. Is it possible for you to block your knowledge of the player, and tell me how you'd read him if you'd never played with him before, if some unknown name had made his posts this game? | ||
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On October 23 2012 03:45 Z-BosoN wrote: Of course they are different things. My town meta on you depicts a much more aggressive austin. DP and drazak gave you much room to be aggressive, yet you were not. You didn't do what I expected you to do, against my meta read on you. That's about it. I don't see why you think this is important, though. If I were pushing a vote of you solely because of this, then you might have something to go on. I was satisfied with your looney filter and never breached that topic again. Entertain me with why you are so interested about it. I'm trying to read you. Your comment about who I should be attacking sticks out to me. I personally disagree that I'd be going after those targets, but I don't know if: (1) I'm wrong; (2) you really think that and have reasons behind thinking that; or (3) you just tossed that comment out there without reasoning behind it. You explaining yourself helps me choose between (1) or (2) vs. (3). | ||
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On October 23 2012 03:56 Z-BosoN wrote: It's not that you SHOULD be attacking them, when the fuck did I said that. In my mind the townie austin would have been all over drazak or DP over something such as has happened in this game. I read that as "If austin were townie, he'd be attacking drazak and DP. He has not done so, which is part of why I think he's scummy." | ||
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On October 23 2012 02:54 austinmcc wrote: I think we all get our thoughts in the open, even if we think someone is going to leap on them for being scummy. I think we need that. I think we need to quit worrying about what's scummy or townie or anything, and get thoughts into the thread. We don't immediately gang up on anyone and shut them down if they post something scummy, because that actually seems to have been counterproductive. Everyone just stop being afraid of posting something, looking scummy, whatever, and play the game. Hapa and Keirathi, do you find the above to be a good plan of action? If not, where would you make modifiations? | ||
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On October 23 2012 05:23 Hapahauli wrote: Well I mean I don't think that would work out the way you intend it to. If we stop worrying about what's scummy or townie, how can we get thoughts into the thread? Playing the game by nature involves making judgements on this. I think we have a great little line of discussion going right now (Z-Bo case), and I'm not in the mood to talk policy right now. What do you think of Z-Bo? The stop worrying about what's scummy or townie applies to ... people not writing down their thoughts? Maybe it's just me, but especially with stuff like being bloodthirsty, I don't think that's entirely a townie thought. It makes me not want to post it. Like, why would a townie post "I want to lynch someone, even if we're not entirely certain of their scumminess?" I assume that not everyone is doing that, but I think that, to some extent, some of the folks with lower activity have points. Whenever they've posted, they get jumped on immediately. It makes them less likely to contribute, especially if they're town, because posting = getting shat on, and nobody taking their thoughts at face value. See above with v7 giving two reads and thread going "AMG TWO READS ONLY?!?!!? SCUMSCUMSCUMSCUMSCUM." So I'm applying that to the actual thoughts themselves, not to...actual scumhunting. I'd rather everyone just POST, and others not just leap all over every thought going SCUM SCUM SCUM. It's something I've done. It's something I'm trying not to do here, because it's generally going to be counterproductive. You're going to tunnel without thinking things through fully AND you're going to disincentivize posting from the people you most want to post. Neither is good. I'm suggesting not crapping on thoughts the moment they get posted. I'm suggesting that low activity posters, whether they like their reads or not, whether they find themselves wishy washy or without fully formed reads or WHATEVER, just go ahead and post them. drazak, keirathi, v7, etc. Thoughts on Z-BosoN in a separate post. | ||
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In rock band, town was quite cooperative. Things were active. People posted, stuff happened, we had good reads and bad reads but overall ACTIVITY made things happen. BH made a relatively silly case, marv OMGUSed palmar, mementoss claimed vigi with this giant post, etc. etc. Everyone was just active and posting. In GSL Open 2, and in some days of Looney Lynching, there just wasn't a lot going on. 2-3 players max were just talking and talking, and scum was hiding inside the pack of more inactive players. So I'm trying both to get everyone more active, by just posting MORE even if it's not finely crafted, even if you think it's not the best read or not a fully formed thought, because that makes scum have to post more or stand out, and scum posting more gives us a better chance of catching them. I also think it improves the atmosphere. We've got from joke-y but not scumhunt-y earlier in the day (nice atmosphere but not productive) to very accusatory and confrontative, where people are getting leapt on for everything they say (not as "nice" an atmosphere, more productive but I'm unsure how much so). I want to aim for the middle of that. For more posts, more activity, and some scumhunting based off that. But scumhunting rather than just "AMG YOU GONE 20 HOURS AND THIS IS ALL WE GET?" Stuff like that, at least to me, isn't scumhunting, because I don't see why scum would be absent, then come back and give thought on just a player or two. I don't think that would be optimal scum play, you'd either stay clammed up or you'd post giant walls of thoughts that were carefully tuned and whatnot. If you disagree with that, cool, let's talk about that one, because you're getting scummy vibes off something I think would be a poor decision for scum to make, when they could easily do other things instead. And yeah, this is all super policy-y, but oh well. If it creates a better environment, if we can get everyone to post more and post more off-the-cuff, then I think we have a better chance of town taking this game. If we're still partially diddling around D1, this is what my brain comes up with when I'm trying to think of proactive ways to diddle around while waiting for everyone to play this game. | ||
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Again, I'm focused more on the game at hand than a player's meta. I see a decent amount of activity early. I see him engaging a LOT of players. Many of his larger posts address the thoughts of, or ask questions to, multiple players. That feels townie to me. Gut read on that is that Z-BosoN is playing, is noticing a couple things, and is posting about all that, rather than just trying to look active. Very focused on equating play this game with play from past games. Hapa feels off compared to usual. DP remember this thing from that other game? DP meta feels like townie based on his other games. Again, gut read, I find trying to connect play this game to other games townie. There's a catch in that it allows him a lot of outs, because he doesn't have to be as focused on THIS game and what's happening now, can always make cases on people based on play in other games. Watching for that as I go through his filter. He's hopping all over the place. At one point he's going to look at me and someone else because he's been focused on everyone else, and writing about everyone else. The desire to look at EVERYONE feels townie to me? Why wouldn't scum start settling on targets to push. He gets very involved in both making a case on me, then ... kind of chainsaw defending me? And that buddying post with him agreeing with every single thing in a post I made for the first time. That strikes me as odd. My paranoid thought there is that I always seem to find him scummy and poke at him, but I'm not here, and him buddying/defending me maybe keeps me from looking at him too hard? But I think that's an overly paranoid thought. I think all the effort between him and you is...not scummy? I don't think it is, but he could just be trying to shift the discussion from his play away from what he's been doing and more to this him/you fight. Again, I don't think that's the case. I actually have a town read on him, looking at all that, I guess. DP's scumread seemed, in large part, based around Z-BosoN's past play. I actually usually find Z-BosoN scummy, so maybe he's scum and I find him townie this time, who knows. But I don't want to vote him. | ||
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I don't really see scum getting into these long drawn up mud-slinging contests. Like...I'd either go "You're right; I'm wrong here" or "Okay okay, I see where you're coming from but I disagree and I'm going to go hunt scum now instead of doing this." Prolonged fighting, page after page, with 1 other person over somewhat of a minute issue, doesn't feel scummy to me. If my thoughts on that change after slogging through you two's recent posting, I'll update that. | ||
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On October 23 2012 06:24 Keirathi wrote: @austin: I'm not exactly sure what you want from me? Just dump a big list of any thoughts about every single person? That doesn't actually seem helpful, and I am loathe to do it. I still think we should be lynching Z-Bo. Sort of, lol. I think that more activity from EVERYONE helps town. It forces scum to be more active or stand out. In all honesty, right now, I think that increased activity, even if you feel it's of a lesser quality or something, will do more for our scumhunting than sitting back and trying to only put out the bestest most polished thoughts. Or something like that? | ||
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On October 23 2012 06:56 marvellosity wrote: My head hurts. Now I know what it looks like when me and VE shout at each other for pages ^^ Unless I missed it, I don't think Z-Bo ever answer Kei's original question of where his v7 scumread appeared from? I've just been through Z-Bo's filter and it indeed just appears and I can't find an explanation. Hopefully I'm not being a fucking dumbass. Z-Bo, explain please? Further, what is your current read on vader and why? Hapa has the right idea with his drazak and v7 post. When two people are shouting at each other, the natural scum reaction is to let it roll, or even throw wood on to the fire, rather than actually do anything about making it stop. On a little sidenote, it's why I found austin's play kinda adorable, because he was trying to push a policy idea but was being roundly ignored, so his reaction was to keep pushing the same idea in the same way, only to be unsurprisingly ignored again  Anyway, vader fits perfectly into the throwing-wood-on-to-the-fire mould, basically egging on the aggressiveness in the thread when there was no need for him to do so. Also, unlike austin, I see his 'I'm going through filter' thing as pretty scummy - like he's going through the motions rather than trying to push something constructive into the thread. BUT LOOK, I'M LOOKING AT PEOPLE'S SHIT?! No. Don't buy it. Every time I see vader post, he's not making me think any more that he's town. This scumbo gotta hang. ##Vote vaderseven. #1, I bet none of you knew this, but the group of letters "ass" appears 20 times in Z-BosoN's filter. The jerk comment seems to explicitly refer back to a post Z-BosoN made: On October 23 2012 03:51 Z-BosoN wrote: @DP, Talking about expectations, I hope you realize how weak this is: I push cases when I feel the need to. I've made my case against Kei, and had nothing else to say. My case against him isn't lynch-worthy, in my own opinion. Also, note how I did not quite kill v7. Several people wanted to insta-kill him, yet I felt pretty scared of laying my vote against him, and argued a bit against it, trying to give him another chance. Now that he is backing posting, he took the chance I gave him and wiped his ass with it. Now I find I actually want to lynch him, more specifically because of that. On October 23 2012 04:28 vaderseven wrote: Also zboson, i wouldnt wipe my ass with anything you gave me jerk. I don't even know what I find that, except kind of amusing. ##unvote for now, because I want to poke around. Commence poking! Drazak Almost 24 hours ago, you were scummy on v7 and "probably a little scummy" on keirathi. Do those reads still hold? If not, why? What is your read on marv? Who in the thread is your #1 townread? | ||
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On October 23 2012 07:49 marvellosity wrote: What happened to "I just wanna lynch someone", dear? Are you actually finding vader less scummy now or are you just going back on your policy because you're feeling capricious? I want to lynch someone. I actually deleted the part of that post where there are 4 someones I'm willing to lynch and start copy pasting the blood for the blood god bit for fun. Right now I'm poking. Poking helps me figure out which of my 4 I want to push, because just going "I WILL LYNCH ANYONE FROM THESE 4" seems suboptimal. | ||
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On October 23 2012 07:54 marvellosity wrote: Spamming blood for the blood god bit = games. Poking people to figure out which of the people I'm willing to vote I want to vote and want to push is not game-y. First and last time I'm going to mention this, hopefully. You know it was these silly games you play that were a quite large part of me telling you you played badly in Looney, don't you? The reason I liked your filter earlier was because the games were absent. Don't think I've fully recovered and refuse to have any fun with my posting. But I'm doing normal scumhunt-y stuff here. | ||
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You were townie earlier, but hapa "has the right idea with his drazak and v7 post." You seem to think v7 threw fuel on the fire, and is scummier for that. What about drazak's odd defenses? | ||
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Z-Bo probably not scum for hammering like that. Not definitely, but I don't see it. On October 23 2012 07:46 austinmcc wrote: Drazak Almost 24 hours ago, you were scummy on v7 and "probably a little scummy" on keirathi. Do those reads still hold? If not, why? What is your read on marv? Who in the thread is your #1 townread? | ||
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If you think Z-Bo's hammer was "terrible" why do you also think he's scum? Why would scum openly make a terrible hammer vote? | ||
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But he only had 2 votes. I don't see scum being that afraid of dying with 2 votes, when he hadn't picked up fresh votes in a while. Like, he would have been worried much sooner, all day, and could have voted earlier, or pushed v7 earlier, or done things that weren't just dicking around with hapa. If he were scum and actually worried about being lynched, I don't understand why he'd spend his day in a giant fight with hapa, rather than doing something all scummy. | ||
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On October 23 2012 09:38 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP: if ZB is scum, hammering totally makes sense, no matter how bad it is and how much it puts him in the spotlight. Unless he can convince everyone else of a stronger candidate than himself or v7, which I don't think he could, one of them was probably going to die. Might as well take out the townie, and then let people play WIFOM games of "why would scum make a terrible hammer". So, I'm paranoid and I usually think things like this. However, IF he was going to take out a townie and play WIFOM games, then I would expect him to do that. Instead, you pounce on him, and he pretty quickly looks through your filter and finds that quote about dumb hammers. If he were scum wanting to WIFOM, I would expect him to WIFOM. Instead, he seems to have gone to look at the filter of his attacker, and bring up something specific to you where you said you weren't concerned about dumb hammers. i.e. he's concerned with your attack on him, rather than WIFOMing the scumminess of his hammer. | ||
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Not sure if the above makes full sense, but I screwed up in newbie XVI under similar circumstances. 2 possible scums, 1 had an optimal mislynch on me, the other had an optimal mislynch on townie X. I went with "They each have obvious mislynches, so I'll go with the other guy cuz he probably made the suboptimal kill to WIFOM us." Except the other guy NEVER WIFOMed the night kill, he just kept saying he wasn't scum, and I lynched him, and he flipped town. If he were going to WIFOM over the hammer, I would expect him to start out with WIFOM and not with looking through your filter. | ||
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He couldn't be sure that someone would make that argument. So now he figured he could hammer as scum and let someone else do the dirty work (or a scumbuddy do the dirty work) and bring up a defense based on what happened to me in Newbie XVI concerning a WIFOM argument that one of his attackers might make. I also still think the pressure is overblown. | ||
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On October 23 2012 09:51 marvellosity wrote: What would you consider optimal scum play in Z-Bo's situation? Pre-hammer or post? | ||
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Optimum play. To me optimum play would be the thing that makes you seem most townie, and so it would be pretty close to what Z-Bo did, lol. Going to the accuser's filter, remembering some inconsistency between a previous post and the current stance, bringing it up. Then...probably either continuing to push that, to undermine the guy who is accusing me, or possibly get a scumbuddy to step in and help out (I'm not scum bee tee dubs). What I'd EXPECT from scum wouldn't be the most super optimal play though. I'd expect the WIFOM, or this argument that I'm bringing up, or something else. | ||
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I wouldn't expect optimal play because...I don't think I SHOULD expect optimal play. If all scum played optimally always, town probably gets crushed again and again. I assume most scum don't play optimally. Moreover, I'm not sure that I get the contradiction between "Z-Bo isn't scum because hammering there was suboptimal" and "Z-Bo doing the super optimal scum play afterwards" indicating town Z-Bo. If he's a mastermind scum player, I would expect the vote/hammer to go differently. I wouldn't expect suboptimal hammer to be immediately followed by optimal response? | ||
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On October 23 2012 09:59 marvellosity wrote: Aren't you saying you don't think Z-Bo is scum because the way he hammered was suboptimal? I don't think he's scum because the hammer seems like suboptimal play. Then his response feels very townie/the optimal play for scum. | ||
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On October 23 2012 10:00 marvellosity wrote: I'm confusing myself now. Ya. I get what you're grok-ing at, but I don't think it makes any sense. If both the vote AND hammer were suboptimal or optimal, then I could think Z-BosoN was scum or scum mastermind. If there's a mix, then I find it more likely the townie response is real, and not the result of scum mastermind Z-BosoN, or else I would expect different play concerning the vote/hammer. | ||
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On October 23 2012 11:05 marvellosity wrote: I think austin actually takes great delight in his post that he's used across multiple games about my wrong reads. I do find it interesting though that you characterise any case against you, by anyone really, as weak, lazy, *insert word here*. If you can show me you're town, I'll reconsider my read. Hell, I even gave Palmar in Rock Band a chance. This hammer shit is NOT it. Hey now. That post sort of ish caught scum  | ||
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Apart from the whole "what scumbuddy would allow this" train of thought, what are your thoughts on drazak? Do you still stick with "said some things too odd/dumb to be scum"? | ||
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On October 24 2012 01:08 iamperfection wrote: obviously i looked through his filter and its awful but his latest actions just straighten my too stupid theory. Maybe that's not textbook scum hunting but i don't particularly care I'm pretty sure I'm right. drazak looks to me like he is a lost useless townie. Okay, just checking on that. | ||
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One reason I asked iamp about the whole "scum teammate wouldn't let drazak say this stuff" is that it's a reason to like a drazak/marv scumteam. Marv wasn't around early to stop drazak, drazak has since posted little and mostly clammed up. I can't find a chunk of time to write out full thoughts until a little later though. | ||
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On October 24 2012 02:43 marvellosity wrote: this might be the stupidest thing i ever read. anyways, worktime finished. That's not even the stupidest thing you've read in my filters. | ||
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A lot of what I end up making reads on this game, so far, is process of elimination. I don't think Z-BosoN is scum. Both because of the hammer/comments (Which I wish hadn't happened, I was really hoping Drazak would come back, respond, and then was thinking about pushing him hard based on his responses), and because...I dunno. I actually find Z-BosoN townie this game. I was all ready to jump on the wagon when he first came up as a legit candidate, and then after reading through his filter myself I didn't want to lynch him. I don't think DP is scum. Active, making cases, that role question early, blah blah blah. I don't think iamperfection is scum, based on that VERY quick vote on DP early D1. I've seen scum iamperfection throw early votes out, so that worries me a little (Aperture he had that insta-vote on Ghost for something small, just like with the vote on DP this game), BUT everything after that vote is different. He hasn't fully been lurking, he's been making some good comments, and so I'm townie on him, but with a weaker read than on Z-BosoN/DP. Don't take this read for gospel, and I need to look at this "scummy on x but voting y" stuff, because that's usually something that I think is a big scum tell. I'm not sure I've had a fantastic track record using it to make reads off of though, really unsure there. Hapa fought with Z-BosoN a bunch yesterday. Mildly townie on him for that I think? I forget why on this one and I don't have my notes with me at work. That leaves me keirathi, marv, drazak. Keirathi I don't have a strong read on this game yet. He's another player, like Z-BosoN, that I fully expected to find scummy when reading through him. Yet I don't, I end up super wishy-washy and could go either way. Drazak and Marv in next post, along with a couple thoughts on setup (Can't resist). | ||
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He's going to come up every day. He's going to be a mislynch candidate, sure, but best to get him out of the way before LYLO, and he's also a scum candidate. You guys may not have as many town reads as I do, but we're in a very small game. If you've got 2-3 town reads and know you're town, you've seriously narrowed down the options for possible scum. Things are narrow enough in my mind that "doesn't seem townie" + "not many options" + the stuff below = probably scum Drazak. Here's why I'm concerned about Drazak mainly. He was relatively active in the beginning. Since then, he's clammed up significantly. I was hoping he'd start posting more, especially if people weren't jumping all over him, because yeah, it's difficult to get a read on him right now. But the part of his filter that keeps sticking out to me are things like: On October 23 2012 04:50 drazak wrote: Not to defend hapa too much, but I know when I've read things, I think different things whehter or not I'm hungry, or if other things are going on in my life, maybe he reconsidered after reading something again. On October 23 2012 05:32 drazak wrote: I don't think he doesn't find him scummy, he just doesn't want the hammer while he's afk, might have someone else he finds scummier. those read very scummy to me because of statements in recent games. I can't NOT look at those and see: On October 01 2012 17:40 Node wrote: I don't think Shady Sands is scum -- at least, not given what we've seen so far. His "trolling" antics were silly, but they weren't scummy. If he were scum, I don't think he would've dropped the trolling pretext so quickly, and I certainly don't think he would be willing to reappear and start pushing targets. On September 28 2012 05:29 Sinensis wrote: I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for. I'm null on him. I think the worst thing he's done is instead of formulating a proper defense (against something that really didn't need defending against), he tried to shift the blame onto others...BUT he wasn't trying to shift the blame onto 1 or 2 other people, he was trying to shift the blame back onto everyone. That's why I think he just believes he's being treated unfairly and is just lashing out at everyone else. This doesn't strike me as scummy so much as just bad town play. Aside from that all he's done is be critical of SnB's play. Which I understand because SnB has been posting weird stuff this game. First there was the random lynch suggestion. He posted this too: I've said a lot already about why VTs shouldn't be fake claiming. Was SnB fishing for people to agree with him or is he suggesting something that benefits mafia on purpose? ANYWAY I just think Ottoxlol is understandably concerned with SnB's play, and I think in the future Ottoxlol should start making proper defenses instead of blaming everyone else. To me, defending people out of nowhere for odd reasons - Node defending Shady for things he hadn't done, Sinensis saying things like "I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for" stick out. Townies read posts, townies make reads, townies justify their reads with posts. Scum knows alignments, scum sometimes justify reads out of nowhere with...non-post stuff? They're trying to give a read but it's clear that they're not getting it from the same place a town player would be. Drazak's comments feel like that. Hapa made a comment about leaving to eat, and Drazak partially defends him by saying that he thinks differently whether he's hungry or full. It's like...a very odd reason to justify what someone was poking at hapa about. It's not intra-thread, it's this weird external defense. The bit on Z-BosoN is...not as good, that comment isn't as out of place, but again it's like...Drazak explaining something based on stuff that wasn't in thread. Just those two posts are enough to make me scummy on Drazak, enough to lynch because there are so few other options. It's also just very simple. I've had better luck with simple reads (Quick readthrough of GSL Open 2 N1 before dying, quick readthrough of Liquid City D1 after being absent (although LC not as much because I went crazy the next day)) than I have with overly complex ones. So I'm going to go with my gut and say that the simple weird statements and outside-the-game comments make him scum. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
I'm always paranoid about marv because of the first game we played. Here are some general thoughts, things for everyone to keep in mind: Almost half of Drazak's filter is before marv posted in this game. More than half of Drazak's filter is before marv got active this game (he came back but went to sleep or whatever). That's just a thing. It's only relevant IF Drazak flips red, and even though it's not super indicative of anything, but when I think "Why wouldn't scum 2 be reigning in scumDrazak?" one obvious answer is "Scum 2 wasn't around yet." Marv fits the bill of someone who wasn't around. Marv has to play odd this game. I think a lot of the thread has read/played in games he was in. Some players have been scum with him. Even if you can't fully identify scumMarv and townMarv, marv has trouble this game because he may well be a lynch on D3 or D4. If game not solved or marv not shot, probably scum marv at that point, that whole argument. In this game, that's a HUGE liability for scum. 1/2 of scum being certain to get killed D3 or D4 as policy? No bueno. It means scumMarv, with a newbie scumbuddy, CANNOT BUS LIKE NORMAL. Scummarv likes bussing weak scum players, but he can't this game, because there's too much risk. Late game he'll probably get killed, so he can't bus the only other scum. Therefore, scummarv can't go with his normal game plan. Don't look for game plan, don't look for meta, blah blah blah. Just look for contributions. Look for how he feels. I don't love the way he's staying back this game, making friends, cracking jokes, etc. One way to get around the policy lynch later is to seem like you're distracted this game. Miss some D1, gotta be absent for part of game later, no strong reads, etc. etc. That way it doesn't look as odd that you've not been NKed after a couple nights. Really, scummarv would have 2 options - play SUPER townie and try not to get policy lynched, or sit back and hope to make the argument that his play this game hasn't warranted a NK, therefore don't policy lynch him. So anyway, getting to the point. I'm wary of marv. I'm wary of marv every game, but THIS game in particular throws a wrench into the way he normally plays scum. It's more difficult for him to bus his ONLY teammate. It's much more difficult to throw off the policy lynch, because we've got some strong townies but nobody... S class? No vets that are almost sure to die N1 because scum just can't leave them up. He's in an odd position this game IF he's scum. Okay so, there are some dumb thoughts. I haven't always agreed with his thought processes this game, I don't like that he found v7 scummy for things I found townie, I don't like that he finds Drazak townie off some of his contributions when I get hung up on those weird outside-the-game posts. But oh well, that doesn't make marv scum. It just makes me wary, and it makes me really think about how he would have to play a 2-scum game this game. If you're town marv, then this is still what you get for LV. Eventually I'll get over it, but your play this game has been interesting. I don't care if you've been low involvement in other town games, or been busy, or whatever. It feels very backseat-y, very joke-y and friendly at times (yes you've thrown some insults as well), which gets the thought stuck in my head that you're trying to avoid some kind of policy lynch on yourself. | ||
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We may have a doc, we may have a cop. We may have neither. Cop has a lot of good checks, in both people that probably won't get lynched but aren't doing a lot, to make sure we have some green checks and can go into D3 with a couple confirmed townies or something. I'd <3 doc protection, but we've had a couple people contribute a good bit and any of them are good choices. I like the idea of a cop checking marv, it gets that whole question out of the way, and we can be sure of his alignment later (no framers, no godfathers, mafia's only chance to stop a cop check is to play "guess the cop" and get a RB). Consider that. If we can lynch scum tomorrow, a marv check would solve all the problems about taking marv to D3 or D4. We'd know his alignment, and we'd have already lynched 1/2 the scumteam, so a claim wouldn't be that bad. In terms of claims in general, don't be too paranoid. Especially if we can get rid of a single scum, or if someone else is claiming and very well could be fake, I think we may want early claims. We're at 6/2, 5/2 if there's an NK. Being able to narrow down a field of 7 to a field of 5 for the lynch tomorrow would be nice. If we go an extra day it's even nicer. And since the cop is very powerful in this setup, given no framers and no gf, you either need breadcrumbs that will become obvious or to claim before you think you've got a chance of dying. Obvious breadcrumbs are dangerous, so an earlier claim is probably better. Anyway, ta da! Cop should check marv if we have it. That's going to be our biggest headache imo. And people should feel free to claim earlier than they think they should, because the game is so small. | ||
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On October 24 2012 04:29 Keirathi wrote: @austin: you realize cop, if we have one, is parity cop. Right? It's a pretty significant distinction. Nope, I don't, because I'm a tard. No wonder cop seemed so strong in this setup, lol. | ||
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On October 24 2012 06:31 Hapahauli wrote: No, he's capable of doing that as both alignments. He voted early as scum in Aperture 2 Mafia, and votes early as town a lot in his other games. In fact, I find him pointing to his GSL II meta in his defense really odd, since Aperture 2 was his most recent scumgame. This is a valid point, however, I still think he's scum for additional reasons mentioned in my case (strangely confident Draz town read, un-pushed FOS on me). I also liked the point about how apologetic he is that you brought up. It's very different from townie iamp. His entire defense to me also has been really really passive, which IMO confirms my read on him. On phone. I know he had the early vote in aperture, but that's a game I don't want to draw parallels from really because he got injured and couldn't really play. I'll take another look at gsl2, died too early to get a feel for his play after d1 but I remember his posting d1 being almost entirely one-liners that didn't say much | ||
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(2) Steaks in South Korea are crazy expensive. (3) See (1) I'll look more at marv and engage in discussion on/with him when I'm up and caffeinated. I was mainly worried through process of elimination, but I want to read your cases more closely and have time to go bounce back and forth between other games that you're pulling posts from. In the same way you want comments on your marv case, I'd like someone else to look at those drazak comments, and specifically at whether they actually strike you as similar to odd comments that scum has made in other games. I don't think they're entirely analogous, and I worry that I'm trying so hard to find someone in his filter that sways me one way or the other that I'm stretching. Would like other sets of eyes on that. | ||
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On October 24 2012 06:54 marvellosity wrote: I wanted to touch on this because I saw it had been posted but I couldn't respond earlier. I actually did read your LC QT. I'll go give it another look. I do remember you pushing for activity, but I also know that you were pissed at talis for not looking like town talis. To some extent, I think there's a distinction between pushing for just activity from scumbuddies and pushing for scumbuddies to stop looking like scum, and to post more similarly to/in amount similarly to how they do as town. I'll have more fully formed thoughts on this after rereading that.LV: never forget. What I completely disagree with, what is flat out wrong, and I'm incredulous you're thinking that way, is that I would be telling drazak to clam up. Read my god-damn scum QTs. In Liquid City I absolutely railed at talismania for not posting, I told him he was playing against win-con and it was a disgrace. I repeatedly told ShiaoPi that he had to post MORE, at one point he asked me if he had to contribute before bed, and I told him to fucking do it. When it was clear I was going to die I told him again that I wouldn't be around to make him post more and he'd have to do it himself. One of the primary things I do in scumQTs is tell people to post post post. The idea that I would be telling drazak to NOT post is mindboggling. Surely turning him into a lurker is not going to win us the game if I'm getting policy lynched at some point. It just makes no sense. Do you see why I called you stupid now, dopeybrains? | ||
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On October 24 2012 09:39 Hapahauli wrote: Oh, and can you refer me to what post in particular you're talking about austin (regarding Drazak)? And the above post was directed at marv ofc. Specifically the 2 quotes that I pull out, which I find similar to odd defenses/comments that other scum players have made in the past + Show Spoiler + On October 24 2012 04:07 austinmcc wrote: I don't support/like/whatever this "Drazak has been mislynched before for looking scummy, therefore we shouldn't lynch him for looking scummy" argument. We can't fully determine his alignment right now. Based on how this game has played out during a long D1 and now N1, we're not GOING to be able to fully determine his alignment, because he's not posting much at all. He's going to come up every day. He's going to be a mislynch candidate, sure, but best to get him out of the way before LYLO, and he's also a scum candidate. You guys may not have as many town reads as I do, but we're in a very small game. If you've got 2-3 town reads and know you're town, you've seriously narrowed down the options for possible scum. Things are narrow enough in my mind that "doesn't seem townie" + "not many options" + the stuff below = probably scum Drazak. Here's why I'm concerned about Drazak mainly. He was relatively active in the beginning. Since then, he's clammed up significantly. I was hoping he'd start posting more, especially if people weren't jumping all over him, because yeah, it's difficult to get a read on him right now. But the part of his filter that keeps sticking out to me are things like: those read very scummy to me because of statements in recent games. I can't NOT look at those and see: To me, defending people out of nowhere for odd reasons - Node defending Shady for things he hadn't done, Sinensis saying things like "I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for" stick out. Townies read posts, townies make reads, townies justify their reads with posts. Scum knows alignments, scum sometimes justify reads out of nowhere with...non-post stuff? They're trying to give a read but it's clear that they're not getting it from the same place a town player would be. Drazak's comments feel like that. Hapa made a comment about leaving to eat, and Drazak partially defends him by saying that he thinks differently whether he's hungry or full. It's like...a very odd reason to justify what someone was poking at hapa about. It's not intra-thread, it's this weird external defense. The bit on Z-BosoN is...not as good, that comment isn't as out of place, but again it's like...Drazak explaining something based on stuff that wasn't in thread. Just those two posts are enough to make me scummy on Drazak, enough to lynch because there are so few other options. It's also just very simple. I've had better luck with simple reads (Quick readthrough of GSL Open 2 N1 before dying, quick readthrough of Liquid City D1 after being absent (although LC not as much because I went crazy the next day)) than I have with overly complex ones. So I'm going to go with my gut and say that the simple weird statements and outside-the-game comments make him scum. | ||
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I would assume that the rest of the votes aren't going to jump onto marv with no warning, but yeah, given how quickly v7 picked up his last couple, it would be nice if nobody jumped the gun. | ||
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On October 24 2012 10:25 drazak wrote: DP bro, sorry that I had a life and that it snuck up on me, wish I didn't have to be afk for as long as I did, but with my laptop giving me issues I have to be at my desktop to post, I read a little bit of the thread on my phone but I had to reread it to make sure I had it when I was on my pc. while you may classify voting for marv as "sheeping" look at his filter, he's got no good defense to hapa's accusation, he says that hapa is cherry picking cases, but if he is then there should be ample evidence to the contrary regarding his meta. Would you care to choose some posts you believe to be marv's defense, quote them, and explain why they are not good? Would you care to pick out specific parts of hapa's case that you agree with? | ||
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On October 24 2012 10:30 Hapahauli wrote: Which post are you talking about? I'd look, but I've been filter diving through marv's meta for hours >> You or someone asked about that a moment ago and I quoted it and stuck it in a spoiler! And by you or someone, I mean...you. You asked. On October 24 2012 09:44 austinmcc wrote: Specifically the 2 quotes that I pull out, which I find similar to odd defenses/comments that other scum players have made in the past + Show Spoiler + On October 24 2012 04:07 austinmcc wrote: I don't support/like/whatever this "Drazak has been mislynched before for looking scummy, therefore we shouldn't lynch him for looking scummy" argument. We can't fully determine his alignment right now. Based on how this game has played out during a long D1 and now N1, we're not GOING to be able to fully determine his alignment, because he's not posting much at all. He's going to come up every day. He's going to be a mislynch candidate, sure, but best to get him out of the way before LYLO, and he's also a scum candidate. You guys may not have as many town reads as I do, but we're in a very small game. If you've got 2-3 town reads and know you're town, you've seriously narrowed down the options for possible scum. Things are narrow enough in my mind that "doesn't seem townie" + "not many options" + the stuff below = probably scum Drazak. Here's why I'm concerned about Drazak mainly. He was relatively active in the beginning. Since then, he's clammed up significantly. I was hoping he'd start posting more, especially if people weren't jumping all over him, because yeah, it's difficult to get a read on him right now. But the part of his filter that keeps sticking out to me are things like: those read very scummy to me because of statements in recent games. I can't NOT look at those and see: To me, defending people out of nowhere for odd reasons - Node defending Shady for things he hadn't done, Sinensis saying things like "I think Ottoxlol believes he's being unfairly voted for" stick out. Townies read posts, townies make reads, townies justify their reads with posts. Scum knows alignments, scum sometimes justify reads out of nowhere with...non-post stuff? They're trying to give a read but it's clear that they're not getting it from the same place a town player would be. Drazak's comments feel like that. Hapa made a comment about leaving to eat, and Drazak partially defends him by saying that he thinks differently whether he's hungry or full. It's like...a very odd reason to justify what someone was poking at hapa about. It's not intra-thread, it's this weird external defense. The bit on Z-BosoN is...not as good, that comment isn't as out of place, but again it's like...Drazak explaining something based on stuff that wasn't in thread. Just those two posts are enough to make me scummy on Drazak, enough to lynch because there are so few other options. It's also just very simple. I've had better luck with simple reads (Quick readthrough of GSL Open 2 N1 before dying, quick readthrough of Liquid City D1 after being absent (although LC not as much because I went crazy the next day)) than I have with overly complex ones. So I'm going to go with my gut and say that the simple weird statements and outside-the-game comments make him scum. | ||
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On October 24 2012 10:34 drazak wrote: So austin, you're saying I made posts like the posts I made when I was town? So you're saying I'm fitting my town meta? ? | ||
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On October 24 2012 10:37 drazak wrote: Austin, you quoted my posts from my games where I say things like "I don't think his vote this" etc, I'm town this game, and saying those things that I said when I was town in those games. I quoted two of your posts from this game... | ||
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That is two posts of yours. They are from this game. The one we're playing now. You wrote those things. I then quote two posts from OTHER people in OTHER games. 1 from Node. 1 from Sinensis. You are neither node nor sinensis. | ||
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On October 24 2012 10:55 DarthPunk wrote: Does anyone else see what I am seeing? Like. He is so scum, I don't even.. . BLEH I don't feel as strongly about the night speculation, some players are just more speculate-y. Don't know about drazak in particular. I'm thinking about this last bit. | ||
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On October 24 2012 10:58 DarthPunk wrote: Hint: There isn't any. It is pointless speculation. 1 person knows who saved him. and that is the medic. Let's file this under "Thoughts you should have had a couple posts back and then STOPPED TYPING ABOUT." I haven't made up my mind on what all this is yet. | ||
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austinmcc
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On October 24 2012 11:08 Hapahauli wrote: @ Austin Regarding those two quotes by Draz - I initially found them scummy, but honestly, he is very very capable of doing that as town. Furthermore, comparing Draz's scumplay to posts by Node and Sinesis (two more veteran players) is kinda ridiculous. He's not a veteran, and needs to be held to an appropriate standard. But really, I'm starting to have a huge town read on him from his recent posting/defense. Look how quickly he's responding - this is dead on with his town meta, where he lurklurklurk's then is really open to defending himself (and instantly defends himself at that) the second he's called out. I don't think of the comparison as something based on ... veterancy. I view it as just this weird thing that ALL scum players can fall victim to. Scum knows Player X is town Player X gets attacked Scum chooses to defend Player X Scum KNOWS X is town, rather than has a town read So scum's defense is not fully based in-game, on things the thread can draw a read off of, but on assumptions/exaggerations/weirdness I don't think falling into that pattern is a result of being a vet or not being a vet, it's just a result of being scum and knowing someone's alignment without having to follow along and develop an actual read on them for reasons. | ||
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On October 24 2012 11:22 drazak wrote: I find Z-bo a little scummy, I'm not sure what he's up to though, he hammered v7 and we didn't agree on the hammer, and people were saying to wait on hammering him until they could get a better read, that bothers me a little. Maybe he just wanted to move the game along, but I'm not sold he had a more solid scum read on v7 than anyone else, but hammered anyway. I'm legitimately trying to read you, and I'm just looking to try and get more complete thoughts from you. It's too late for me to keep going, but I'd appreciate you fleshing this answer out. Is the hammer the only part you find scummy? Do you find it scummy or does it just bother you? Even if the hammer vote feels scummy to you, what about the rest of his play? | ||
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One thought: We can assume there's a doctor, as the alternative is that mafia didn't send in a N1 kill. Doctor seems far more likely. IF we have a doctor, mafia know the setup. 100% On October 20 2012 03:53 Blazinghand wrote: If they have a roleblocker, mafia knows we have a parity cop. If no roleblocker, mafia knows we don't have a cop. So both mafia and our cop/boxer know the setup, the rest of us don't.Possible Setups A) 1 Forum Hero, 1 Trilaner, 1 HopeTorture, 1 NesTea, 5 Progamers C) 2 Forum Heroes, 1 BoxeR, 1 HopeTorture, 5 Progamers So, just a thought. IF you're boxer, consider claiming later (not today probably). Mafia knows whether we have a boxer or a cop, so you're not giving them setup information if you claim. I know this doesn't matter much, but...I was jonesing for some setup speculation among all this actual scumhunting. Now to get reading. | ||
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On October 24 2012 09:55 drazak wrote: To me, your play is pretty neutral, but based on the meta evidence? I think you're scum. I have no problem voting youbased on the meta evidence. ##vote marvellosity Could you please explain "your play is pretty neutral" You have not mentioned marv ever in your filter until hapa makes his case. So please explain why you found his play this game to be neutral. | ||
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I think hapa's case does a good job of rounding up a decent (if not complete) picture of recent marv games. I think some of those games are...so dissimilar that I don't like drawing parallels to them? Clothes would be one of those. I think that the setup in Clothes is so different from a normal or semi-normal game that one's play, to some extent, would be different there than in other games. I don't think this is damning of the specific comparisons hapa drew, because you used other cases and you spoke in a lot of generalities like "trying to figure the game out" and "moving votes around" (my quotes, not yours). Those seem more mindset-oriented characteristics that you'd port from game to game than something that wouldn't carry over at all. All of that is just...saying what's on my mind. I still think you've pulled plenty of comparable games that using Clothes doesn't kill the case for me. That's all very bland and kind of wishy washy. I just...ugh. I hate all this meta stuff and I keep finding myself wanting to distrust ALL meta cases/reads, because that seems easier than trying to filter through the times someone has properly used meta. I'm swamped at work today, and will continue to be until next W and the end of the month. I'm gonna get through marv's filter again when I can, and try to pin down some thoughts on his actual play this game. I know I dislike the way he went about voting v7/finding v7's return scummy, but I'm not entirely sure as to whether that's because he and I disagreed on whether the return posts were townie or scummy, or whether I actually find the disagreement ITSELF scummy (would is this another point of view a townie can take, or is that point of view itself scummy). Otherwise, I'm just going to wait for whatever he's going to post, and this evening I can devote some time to the game. On October 25 2012 00:55 drazak wrote: yeah man, ad hominem is certainly the answer, I was open with my reads when people asked me, try again please. I still am not sure of your alignment, but ... (1) we shouldn't be having to ask so much for your reads (2) why did you find marv's play this game neutral before hapa's case? | ||
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On October 25 2012 03:27 Keirathi wrote: Meta is a valuable tool, when used correctly. Hapa's case is definitely "using it correctly". Not that he's necessarily right, but I came to the exact same conclusions, for the same reasoning, at the same time Hapa did, so I'm inclined to believe that we're not BOTH wrong. I mean, earlier in the game, marv explicitly stated he was paranoid about how solid a grasp I have on meta in general, and could have been using that to alter my scum play to be more similar to my town play. I'm not sure if you read my meta analysis of marv in LC, where I concluded that kush was town? Marv specifically pm'd me about that later, saying it was one of the few things that anyone has EVER said that has made him actually step back and think about how he plays this game. I know I say it a lot, but I really have spent a ton of time talking to marv about games, delving into the way he thinks, why he does certain things, etc. I'm certainly no expert on him, but I believe I have a decent grasp of his play, in general. Yaya, I'm generally down with this case. There's just a mental roadblock that exists between meta and me, and I tend to try and shy away from it. I didn't see that bit in LC. I'm a baddie and didn't follow LC at all after dying really. | ||
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On October 25 2012 06:38 Hapahauli wrote: But again, I'm expecting reads and not your defense. I don't think I'll ever be satisfied with how you defend yourself. You're pretty good at defending yourself anywho, and I expect that from scum or town you. I measure your "townie-ness" by your contributions and case-writing, which you have still not posted. As I mentioned above, your top two scum-reads are pathetic for a player of your caliber and fit right into optimal scum-strategy. Also, you must be having quite a difficult time writing a case on me huh? Hurry up. As I read this, you not ever being satisfied with how marv defends himself implies that you COULD find marv townie based on the reads he offers. Is that accurate? | ||
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On October 25 2012 06:50 Hapahauli wrote: 100% accurate Could you...explain this one a little? I know that agreeing with his reads, or seeing the thought process, could ease your concerns over some of your meta points. However, no matter what reads marv throws out, even if they match yours exactly, some of your other points would still be applicable, and the reads would have come only AFTER you've called him out and after all this time. | ||
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On October 25 2012 07:03 drazak wrote: I find it insanely odd how marv calls those cases cherry picked and then can't come up with other cases to his defense, obviously if they're cherry picked it's because there are other cases contrary to them, but I haven't seen any yet. Still curious about this: On October 24 2012 09:55 drazak wrote: in reference to marv.To me, your play is pretty neutral Why was his play neutral to you? Specifically, what posts, what actions, etc. | ||
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THREAD ATMOSPHERE POLICE ALERT!!! THREAD ATMOSPHERE POLICE ALERT!!! (I wanted to make those blue and red but was worried about the mod-font bit. Imagine them blue and red) On October 25 2012 07:06 Hapahauli wrote: I'm hoping you're just town that thinks he's caught scum and is really happy about that, but I don't like your series of posts like this. I find it funny how marv has been dangling his scumread on me for almost an entire day and has yet to come up with any rationale whatsoever. On October 24 2012 09:42 Hapahauli wrote: marv is claiming scum btw. On October 24 2012 09:51 Hapahauli wrote: Are you going to get to those reads any time soon, or will you keep up with this OMGUS shit? On October 25 2012 04:45 Hapahauli wrote: Time frame? I'm rather eager to find out if you're putting your mouth where your vote is. On October 25 2012 04:48 Hapahauli wrote: That's stupid. =/ Hurry up I'm bored. I think your case is well-written and presented. But little potshots and posts like this serve to weaken your overall position in my mind somehow. Like...case good, well-presented, but it's being followed up by little comments like this, and for whatever reason that makes me want to disagree with the case/read, just because of how you're pursuing it. I'm not sure if that's particular to me or not. I'm not sure if that's really relevant or not. And I don't find it scummy. But, at least with me, the continued sniping serves to turn me off the read you're pushing, because it adds posts to the thread that don't matter at all and are phrased very negatively. /threadatmospherepoliceoff | ||
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On October 25 2012 07:13 drazak wrote: He had a few reads, but nothing that great, which shows that he was atleast trying to look town, he hasn't pushed any case really really hard like some of the other people who I have stronger town reads on. What reads in particular? What posts do you feel like are him pushing cases, but not very hard, as opposed to a case that you feel someone else WAS pushing hard? | ||
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On October 25 2012 07:21 marvellosity wrote: austin, I think you have... newer stuff in the thread to comment on  Friggin' ninjas. I'm trying to be all positive and people gotta keep posting claims 'n' crap. | ||
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We can assume doc over lack-of-sent-in-NK N1. We can assume Boxer and not cop, over lack-of-sent-in-RB N1. So barring trickiness, the boxer claim is true unless counterclaimed. And it wouldn't make sense to fakeclaim boxer at this point anyway if it could be counterclaimed, that's just sillypants. It would only make sense in the case of scum holding an action or NK in order to mess with (my) setup speculation. As long as nobody counterclaims, then, I'm delighted. I was really concerned when hapa said he might find marv townie off marv's reads, because it felt like he was pushing this case so hard that he shouldn't be seeing possibilities like that. And ... the whole negativity thing irks me and just makes me want someone to flip scum for being negative. Again, IF scummarv this game then he can't bus a weak scumbuddy, but a scumbuddy could get mileage out of bussing scummarv hard because marv probably gets policy lynched later anyway. I actually was worried about that possibility because I'm overly paranoid, and I'm glad that the claim stops that possibility. | ||
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marv, drazak. you say bandwagony, lack of explanations, evades questions. This was a peculiar post to me, in terms of you giving real reasons for finding him townie (actually speaking with him, about getting lynched for not pushing reads, etc.). This post came from a position of...more knowledge than we have in thread, and so should carry some weight. On October 23 2012 08:26 marvellosity wrote: It looks like in his own way he's trying to defuse things. On the flip side of this, it points to the fact he was present in the thread for a while and not making any actual further contributions of his own. Which should be scummy, except... after the last game he played when he was lynched Day 1, he spoke to me on IRC about his play and why he'd been lynched. And he got lynched because he wasn't pushing reads and contributing, although it seemed to me at the time when I was talking to him that for whatever reason he didn't *quite* grasp it; so it's possible to make the argument that he should have learnt from this, but I rather think that it's simply consistent with how he's played as town before. I don't want to lynch drazak today, I still lean town. do you think that he grasps it, that he'd be playing differently if he were town this game? Especially given that one of the two reads you gave seems to be town, you still confident in the other? | ||
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Otherwise, I'm willing to hammer. | ||
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On October 25 2012 09:18 iamperfection wrote: off topic but what do you do irl austin? You seem to have a distinct thinking style. Engineer maybe? annul had it right in LC. I'm a lawyer. | ||
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On October 25 2012 09:48 Hapahauli wrote: Good lord people need to not get sniped by Blazinghand =/ He's so on top of the vote counts this game, you can't help it. His VCPM is off the charts. | ||
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On October 25 2012 10:19 DarthPunk wrote: Does anyone want to comment on marv outing ZB as his scum buddy? DarthPunk for tabloid headline writer of the year. Yes, you are correct. Marv didn't hammer v7. I don't think you can take things as far as you did though. | ||
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On October 25 2012 10:15 Keirathi wrote: You're definitely not one of the weakest players in this game. But, you would probably be shot behind town marv and/or town Hapa. Maybe me, too, depending on if marv is scum or not (in general). But, I completely agree, the likelihood of you being alive today was higher than the likelihood of you being dead. At first I was like On October 25 2012 10:22 Keirathi wrote: But then I was like Oh yea, austin too. Although arguably you would have been shot before me after my shitty day 1 performance | ||
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On October 25 2012 10:23 Hapahauli wrote: Ugh so I have a fever and I need to take a break from the game tonight. This isn't too bad though - I'm far less certain about who scum #2 is and I want to see some other people post and contribute. I'll be fairly lurky tonight, but expect my thoughts near the deadline tomorrow. @ Z-Bo Wait how did you know I was boxer if you didn't catch my crumb? Seems kinda hard to read a powerless blue-role like that. @ DP To clarify - you know marv flipped scum right? Or are you still catching up? Also, I don't understand how you think marv outed Z-Bo there. Just because he misrepresented his own actions doesn't mean that he outed someone else. My first response is to stick with drazak. Still got town reads on a lot of players this game. Still think scummarv explains drazak's filter being so front-heavy, and proves an explanation for the whole "scumbuddy would stop this" argument. | ||
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On October 25 2012 10:26 Hapahauli wrote: Austin I'm curious - have you ever played a scum game? Aperture 2 is the only scum game I've played. Ruined my streak of townieness. | ||
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On October 25 2012 10:22 austinmcc wrote: DarthPunk for tabloid headline writer of the year. Yes, you are correct. Marv didn't hammer v7. I don't think you The hammer into followup play of Z-BosoN gives me a sizeable town read on him. It's going to take a lot more than "marv made a mistake for this reason and not that reason" to get me on board with scumZ-BosoN. Where are you on drazak right now? | ||
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On October 25 2012 10:31 Hapahauli wrote: Oh fuck you were scum in that game? Well shit that terrifies me. Will have to look into that. Once you read it, you won't be so terrified, lol. | ||
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Now that you KNOW marv is scum, 100%, do you think he's the sort of person to strategize with that post? If he knows he's going down 100%, how does he structure his town/scum reads to best help his buddy? I cannot step around the thought that if he's scumbuddies with drazak then putting drazak as a scum read is the best play. scummarv gave a read on drazak, who feels mislynchable, therefore we don't trust that and we go lynch other players. You can argue that marv was choosing the player he thought most likely to get lynched instead of him, but it was late enough that momentum was swinging so hard against marv, there was no way things were going to swing to drazak based off marv's post. Since you're now stuck being the knower-of-things-marv in thread, with real-marv gone, do you have any thoughts on how he'd play out those reads and does my thought above make sense to you? | ||
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On October 25 2012 10:45 Keirathi wrote: Austin: you 100% ignore everything marv said about Drazak and decide if he's lynchable for the things hes done on his own. WIFOM wars about shit like that isn't going to help anything. You can see my thoughts on drazak last night and also today. You can see me poking at him and trying to figure things out. Yes, that last post is WIFOM-heavy, but I'm not going to push a lynch based on "marv had drazak as scumread gogogogo." But it's something to consider. | ||
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On October 25 2012 10:49 Keirathi wrote: Anyways, on a serious note: Marv seems to have known he was going to be lynched, or at least come damn close to being lynched, for quite some time. I feel like one of the people on his vote is probably scum, bussing for that bit of town cred. iamp and drazak both jumped on with weak explanations, so they're who I'm particularly interested in right now. ZB as an outside shot 3rd option. All 3 of those options were on the v7 lynch as well, along with marv. | ||
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On October 25 2012 10:52 austinmcc wrote: All 3 of those options were on the v7 lynch as well, along with marv. That looks like I'm vaguely egging someone on. I still don't think Z-BosoN is scum. But I do like the thought process here (Especially because it turns up drazak as an option). | ||
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GG all, really enjoyed this one and it was a nice change of pace from Open 2. More activity, generally a better environment, and I think we all did a decent job keeping things moving for the length of D1, which made it much easier to differentiate scum/town players. Thanks for the protection drazak , he says, despite still having drazak as a scumread on D2/N2. I wasn't entirely sure whether DP was outing a medic during that one exchange or whether you were just being weird, nice to know it was the first. Also, DP Y U OUT MEDIC? During that whole exchange I kept reading you push harder and harder and kept hoping you'd realize what was happening and stop. And despite all that I still decided I'd push drazak because, if nothing else, he could claim later.Really nice case hapa. I spent the whole day going "Well, it looks nice, and marv's comments on v7 look awful + that dumbest thing ever comment looks so phony, but...I really don't want to vote based on meta." I know it's a thing to work on, but I'm trying to address some other, more pressing, issues with my play first. Also, Z-BosoN not scum! And I actually defended you this game! Big thanks to BH for both hosting this, giving us a vote count every time anything happened, and I think putting together a solid roster for the game. | ||
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On October 25 2012 23:19 marvellosity wrote: austin, it WAS the dumbest thing ever. THAT wasn't alignment indicative. We just came out of a game where I wrote a 4 act play accusing annul, who you knew to be town, of being a wank-fiend. | ||
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I realized, looking back, that I didn't argue hard enough for v7 being town because I was trying to slowly ask drazak questions and build that read without outright accusing him hard, but...I have no idea why scum would return from a long absence with reads on 2 players and then continue to promise more later. That's just asking to get lynched by the players who want to see you contribute and want to lynch you based on not doing a whole lot. Why would scum pull a suicidal stunt like that, instead of coming back with something nicely engineered or a case on another player? I know he pulled in a couple votes after that, but I couldn't believe you'd actually find his return scummy. | ||
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On October 25 2012 23:24 marvellosity wrote: It wasn't dumb, it was embellished. There's a massive difference. What you said here was dumb. Really I think you should know me well enough that I will never, ever encourage scum partners to post LESS. I get stuck thinking there are cases where someone posting less would be a good play. | ||
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On October 25 2012 23:26 marvellosity wrote: Why not? He comes back with irrelevant reads that did nothing to help the thread. Promising more shit later is easy to do. In general I think players get too hung up on what scum would/wouldn't do. Scum players play suboptimally all the time, just as much as town players do. It wasn't suboptimal. It was suicidal. v7 isn't participating/isn't giving reads, let's lynch him. v7 returns to thread, gives out a few reads and promises participation later. Way higher chance that he's actually crazy busy and trying to contribute what he can than just...doing exactly what people are finding him scummy for. | ||
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On October 25 2012 23:30 marvellosity wrote: sorry, I edited my post a few above and you probably didn't see. About Clothes Mafia. We lynched him on Day 2 off one post. Gotcha gotcha. I think those are entirely different, and I dunno that I should keep clogging up postgame with this, lol. VE made an "obvious" mistake, that highlighted the change in posting style with the @ and the italics. v7 was called scummy for behaving a certain way, came back after a long absence and behaved in much the same way. Not that it was obvious or too scummy, but just that scum under suspicion for x doesn't come back after a long absence and keep doing x, at least in the vast majority of cases. | ||
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Newbie XIII as well | ||
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On October 25 2012 23:39 Keirathi wrote: I still didn't particularly want to lynch vader. After GSL 1, where he did the EXACT SAME THING, lynching him felt wasteful. I would have been much happier with ZB Don't lynch Z-BosoN in his first town game | ||
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On October 25 2012 23:41 marvellosity wrote: he was town in his last 2 games dear (Liquid, LVII) Z-BosoN totes scum in both those games. | ||
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A case like the one you made, while again, very good, is also the sort that (in my head) can be planned out. You can sit in QT talking about where he's played similar to other scum games, etc, and then just roll everything that you and he see wrong with his play this game into a convincing meta case, because he's probably aware of any points where he didn't look like he should. Just the whole 2 scum thing + policy lynch opportunity had me thinking that marv wouldn't bus, and that marv's scumbuddy SHOULD. Regardless of how you looked on your own merit, I was just paranoid about that possibility. | ||
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On October 26 2012 04:36 marvellosity wrote: Also amazing connection theories / plans are only true about 1/20 of the time... at most. Who cares about TRUTH? They're way more FUN 20/20 of the time. | ||
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On October 26 2012 04:48 marvellosity wrote: you pretty much know how i'm inclined to claim having seen Rock Band. I passively suggested you could have not claimed rb and then i was like, yeah i'm jk. you seem to like writing these things though, so fill your boots Claiming = fun. | ||
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On October 26 2012 04:52 marvellosity wrote: says the guy who got lynched when he last claimed xD Yeeeeeeeeeah. I think in part because claiming still some big deal in my head, made a production out of it (EVEN THOUGH IT TOTALLY MADE SENSEEEEEEEEEEEEEE) But the time BEFORE that claim I had my awesome fake-claim. | ||
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On October 26 2012 04:53 Keirathi wrote: He didn't get lynched in Aperture 2 after that ridiculously convenient claim! You say "ridiculously convenient"; I say "convincingly ridiculous" | ||
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On October 26 2012 04:58 marvellosity wrote: oh god that claim cracked me up. It was certainly ridiculous. Not sure about the convincing :p Gotta have dat "Why would I be given such a stupid fakeclaim?" argument to fall back on. | ||
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On October 26 2012 06:28 Blazinghand wrote: In my experience in instant lynch games, scum typically try very hard to avoid being the hammering vote. They're usually in the middle of the wagon. Of course, as soon as I say that it becomes less true, but it still applies. Hammering is usually not something you want to do as scum. Even done well, you naturally stick out in people's minds as the hammerer. Just because a guy hammers a townie doesn't make him scum. Scum made HALF the hammer votes in this game. HALF (that rounds up to ALL) | ||
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On October 26 2012 08:08 DarthPunk wrote: This is the reasoning behind me dropping the case on Draz. If he was medic, scum are going to night kill him. As we get closer to lylo it would be increasingly risky to keep him alive. If he was still alive later in the game I was going to go all out for his blood. But I thought it would be better to drop it for now and see if he got night killed. Rather than potentially waste a lynch on him. If you know what I mean? I thought about some of this and actually DIDN'T post it to thread. Assuming there was a save N1, mafia could kill the medic N2 if he claimed but didn't need to. Can't protect the same target 2x in a row, so they could kill whoever they wanted dead N1 on N2, and then kill the medic N3 IF they were that concerned with the medic. Either way, there's a confirmed townie living til N3 (Either the medic or his protect). Either way, both the medic and the protect are dead after N3, but the outed medic can't affect NKs so long as mafia still wants to kill the N1 target and the medic over other choices. | ||
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On October 26 2012 15:29 debears wrote: Alright. some quick thought. I couldn't finish following the game after marv's lynch with my final newbie (gotta kick some ass) What was drazak's big slip that I didn't get to read? Quote plz? 1) drazak - It was blatantly obvious that you were hiding something. I would've insta nked you as mafia in most setups. Read the early obs QT for my read. Here's one of the posts on the last page debears 10-24-2012 11:03 AM ET (US) And that means doctor only. Might need to read thru filters to find the dox. Candidates off top of my head Drazak Dp Austin? 2) DP - Yeah we thought wayyyyy similar this game. I thought we were the same person this game :D And yeah I would've pushed drazak too. In the worst case scenario, you reveal a confirmed medic. Best case scenario, you lynch the final scum. With one scum left it isn't too risky, especially with the boxer claim and how obvious it was to scum he was a blue 3) Hapa - Boss mode like dat. Apparently I can't read marv for shit (somehow I got him right in LC). Helluva case good sir. 4) Z-Bo - I have a streak of thinking you're scum lol. Fortunately the hammer cleared your scumminess imo 5) Marv - Lol. No chance. Hapas case was bulletproof (or pretty damn close) 6) Austin - I really was on you in the qt because it seemed like your posts really weren't accomplishing anything d1/d2. I must be very wrong cuz everyone saw you as townie :/ Can anyone help me out with Austin on why he was townie? Example posts and such? 7) Iamp - debears 10-23-2012 09:21 PM ET (US) lol yeah. I'm still wanting to try the bus scum partners 1 and 2 and then solo to victory lol. and look at the word choice by iamp. Uses know instead of no.......weird. breadcrumb to parity cop???? Was that an intentional breadcrumb? 8) Keir - Ya i definitely misread that post lol....whoops 9) I had a lot of trouble making town reads this game. Almost everyone was doing scummy things in my eyes. Guess that's not necessarily bad, but it isn't good. I got way confused at the end Here was the last list I posted, scummy to townie Draz (saw blue or mafia pretty equally likely) marvellosity austin z-boson (hammer vote is either town or ballsy scum. And he did get in a shit flinging fest) Keirathi iamperfection (never really saw as scummy :/) Hapahauli DarthPunk AND MOST IMPORTANT ANSWER THIS debears 10-24-2012 12:39 AM ET (US) btw is this "S-Class" label referencing Yu Yu Hakusho?? time for bed....this post was way longer than I thought it would be Drazak's Slip There's a series of small indicators, and then some bigger ones. Small stuff On October 24 2012 09:40 drazak wrote: Ok, I'm here, going to be posting a bunch tonight, I had students to tutor that told me monday they had a test wednesday, and as my laptop isn't working (see earlier post) I couldn't really post for bed, and I was too tired to sit up at my pc after class and tutoring and any work things I've dealt with lately. So scum didn't get a kill last night, correct? That means we have to have a medic yeah? That means we have either a Boxer or a parity cop. I saw there were some accusations against me because of how I've beem posting, and my lack of posting, my bad, I was even in a hurry this morning because I slept in. Just caught up on the thread so some things might be obvious, ask me questions while I figure out who to ask questions and what about. On October 24 2012 09:53 drazak wrote: Wow, that post, I skimmed it before, but reading it again,I'm really starting to believe it, it's pretty comprehensive and those signs are pretty exact. I think if we lynch marv and he's scum, whomever the medic is has to save hapa because that wouldn't be a bus, but if marv isn't scum, maybe lynch hapa the next day? On October 24 2012 10:18 drazak wrote: I mean, if we're wrong, and hapa's read is wrong, then shit, mislynch, hope doc makes a good save, hope parity cop is alive or boxer knows when to claim, and then go after hapa as long as there's no good evidence to his defense. Marv hasn't adequately defended himself by anyone's means as far as I'm concerned, why are you so defensive of him DP? shows focus on blue roles, esp. medic. But the conversation with DP was the big kicker. On October 24 2012 10:45 drazak wrote: I'm reading the thread DP, but I don't get how his connection makes sense, if I'm scum because of those posts, but they're the same kinds of posts that I make in town games, how am I scum this game? None of that even makes sense, which is why I don't understand. If that's not enough reason to think I'm town, I'm not sure what else I have to do, this is a small game, but I have town reads on Hapa and DP for how agressive hapa has been, and how willing to look at different players and play reactionarily that he's been. I also have a pretty good town read on austin because of how he's been playing, also the fac that nobody was lynched last night. while it may be WIFOM, if I was mafia I'd probably have lynched Austin last night, someone probably saved him (or maybe hapa or DP, but if I were a medic, austin would probably be my #1 save) On October 24 2012 10:52 DarthPunk wrote: SNIPPED Really. So mafia tried to kill austin and someone saved him? where is the basis IN THE THREAD for that 'assumption' BECAUSE I SURE AS HELL CAN'T FIND IT. Why is talking about that even relevant. Speculating on the night kills shows a (ty BH) Night oriented mind set. On October 24 2012 10:56 DarthPunk wrote: Where in the thread is there any information at all to draw the conclusion that mafia targeted Austin? Right here is where things are starting to turn. All this speculation about me being hit and saved by the medic, him having a big town read on me, and DP's asking where there's any information in thread to justify that assumption. There's not, but drazak is not the only explanation for him having knowledge beyond the thread. On October 24 2012 10:58 DarthPunk wrote: Hint: There isn't any. It is pointless speculation. 1 person knows who saved him. and that is the medic. On October 24 2012 11:00 DarthPunk wrote: Was that thing about the night kills a crumb drazak? On October 24 2012 11:00 drazak wrote: Austin was being a really good town, which is why I have a strong town read on him, his analysis is strong, he posts a lot, he seems to read significantly better than I am tonight, it's just speculation though. I mean, I pretty much clearly said that it was speculation, that's how I play. | ||
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Can anyone help me out with Austin on why he was townie? Example posts and such? In general, I felt like I was trying to scumhunt, participating, making logical reads (Things like DP early, Z-BosoN's hammer, looking through people who interacted with DP early, etc.). I tend to be overly setup speculative, what you found fluffy in obs, but...I'd like to believe I toned it down somewhat this game. Most posts that I had concerning setup, or wanting to lynch, or anything like that SHOULD have had a townie mindset behind them - especially things like wanting to lynch. I was hoping all other townies had that mindset, wanted to get out of D1, and so I felt confident in posting "Let's kill someone even if we can't be sure." In my head, posting something that felt slightly anti-town but that we probably all thought was a very townie thing to do? Unsure if others read it that way. btw is this "S-Class" label referencing Yu Yu Hakusho?? Probably SC2. S-Class is the top tier of pro, basically. Unsure where it originated from, but I imagine it's from some older system or just a cultural thing, and not derived from either SC2 or YYH. | ||
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On October 26 2012 22:47 marvellosity wrote: Did I really waste my 6000th post on that -.- Nice. | ||
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