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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
If I do need to change my read on him then it doesn't really matter since both him and scum S&B would be immediately outed without my help at finding them. *sigh* The easiest option for scum right now is Drazerk, or if turn a blind eye to my gut Jingle; but shit I hate it when this happens in games. Hopefully there is only 1 scum left and 1 3rd party survivor or something so I feel better about myself in post-game. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
No, Mattchew is most likely town and I don't doubt that....at least for now. If I have to make a quick response about "who's scum" I'd have to say one of these: Hiro-ghost-Drazerk-Jingle But I'm not in the mood right now to start completely changing my reads on them. Being in this situation also makes me doubt the other players still (Mattchew, austin and Crossfire). Again, the "easiest" answer I can give you without having to drastically change my point of view is "Drazerk" and maybe "Jingle" (because honestly he's the easiest one I can FoS and just say "maybe he's that reckless as scum anyway" and brush it off). I have to reread filters though, I can't answer anything seriously until I do. Hopefully tomorrow I have time and go to uni later in the day and not so early. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On October 05 2012 12:00 JingleHell wrote: I think he overdid the whole effort to stay alive by trying to ingratiate himself by calling people town. Okay, I've had enough of this. I've tried to just ignore you, but there's a real possibility you can be scum so I just want to get this over with: Make a damn case against me Come on, I dare you. You've been actively buggering me and everybody "assuming" I'm scum but other than "in D1 he FoSed me" and "he's discrediting me yet calling me town" I haven't seen nor remember any point you made about me being scum at all. You have been all "oh look, scum gonzaw has townreads! He's obvious scum" or "look, scum gonzaw wants to do X! more scumminess that should convince everybody he's scum". Those are not points about me being scum, those are points you twist to convince yourself your scumread on me (which I still don't quite get where it came from) is not shitty. It's confirmation bias, everybody does it, hell I may have done it with Nisani back there (in hindsight there were some things he said that struck me as odd for scum to say, but I just shrugged it off as "scum trying to misdirect me"; for instance when he didn't jump on the wagon against me when I FoSed him and didn't even try to discredit me and actually "liked" my case on S&B) But you can't rely on those to make a case. So come on, go, read my filter and make a case, I have all N2 to wait for it, I know I'm not getting killed by scum tonight anyways (again, just like Can't Believe). I suggest S&B or Keirathi (whoever has the medic ability) to use it on someone else tonight. If someone somehow still doubts I'm town please go back and read Can't Believe again: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351147 Everything in my play eerily seems to be exactly like in there (at least before D2), down to me being town to me having shitty reads (as it pains me to say) and getting FoSed all over the place, to "defending" (somehow) a flipped scum and getting shit for it, etc. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
So why aren't you taking that chance? Don't you want other guys like austin/Crossfire/etc who think I'm town to realize what a scummy monster I am? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
If you don't I'll try to get you lynched for it, it's as easy as that (to either motivate you to stop fucking around if you are town or to just get you lynched if you are scum). Okay, that's as far as I'll go getting aggressive here, I'm past that point in my mafia career, no need to get all pissy about it. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On October 05 2012 13:17 JingleHell wrote: Oh, sorry, did the last time I summed it up have too many big words? I'm really tired of reminding you that my case against you is to convince others, ]not you. Don't get all pissy about me getting sick of you talking shit while you try to run roughshod over the town. You're scum, and I've already laid it out for everyone. I'd really like people's input on this. Was someone ever convinced I was scum because of Jingle's "cases"? I only remember Keirathi voting me because of something he found by himself in my posts (about wanting to get Nisani lynched for something I do as scum as well, and to him I was doing so in D1) and austin got suspicious of me because of that question I asked S&B. Oh yeah Mementos got suspicious of me because I was not "convincing people to consolidate on a specific lynch" and he kind of OMGUSed me when I called him out. Hell, some people even stated how you are scummy as shit as well and you've been "dicking on gonzaw" (I think it was Crossfire who said that). You want to convince "others" that I'm scum but you are doing a very bad job, achieving the opposite of what you are looking for;and what's worse, you seem to not realize that and keep fooling yourself Seriously Jingle, if you are town you can't be this dense. If you keep up with this I'll have no choice but to assume you are scum. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
(at least when I'm town) | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Okay, answer me this then: On October 05 2012 13:17 JingleHell wrote: I'm really tired of reminding you that my case against you is to convince others, not you. by me: You want to convince "others" that I'm scum but you are doing a very bad job, achieving the opposite of what you are looking for;and what's worse, you seem to not realize that and keep fooling yourself Why are you under the assumption that you are trying to "convince others" I'm scum when it obviously failed and you actually got suspicion on yourself from many players (like Mattchew and Crossfire, and maybe someone else)? Of course again counting the fact that you are not trying to convince anybody I'm scum You just quote stuff I do and point out "lol obvs scum". You don't seem to try and convince anybody. Have you asked Mattchew why he thinks I'm town, argued against his points and try to convince him I'm scum? No Have you argued against any of those points austin made in his gigantic post about why I'm town and try to convince him I'm scum? No >repeat for everybody that thinks I'm town I'd instantly label you as scum in any game....but again I had that gut feeling you were just that bad of a townie and got into a tunneling vision you can't get out of and you can't take a step back and think twice about it. My gut feeling seems wrong in all these games though, so I could ignore it this time to lynch your ass if you don't start giving answers. P.S: I'll try this to be the last post in direct response to Jingle to not shit up the thread. Jingle I already posted what I needed to post, and all you guys can see it, so put your thoughts/pressure Jingle/etc. If I keep posting surely Jingle will keep insulting me and not doing anything. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On October 05 2012 13:34 JingleHell wrote: You start a fight No I didn't. Where did I start a fight? Voting you is not starting a fight. ...throwing insults around... That was meant to be advice, not an insult. It seems obvious if you read what follows it. What else? I don't remember directly insulting you, other than your play. Again...how does that make me scum? | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I won't ask you again. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Why are you trying to run around it so much? Just fucking do it. That's not rocket science. I'm getting annoyed now | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Sorry, my fault there, yes I shit up the thread a little bit. I'll try not to do it again. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I'll deal with all your concerns here (yeah it will be a big post). Hopefully we can get past this now, or at least I hope you'll try harder if you still think I'm scum: On October 05 2012 14:35 JingleHell wrote: Gonzaw Ok, let's get this out of the way first. He accuses me of not doing shit, when he hadn't done shit at this point, and of a bad vote. The reasoning for my vote was pretty much covered after that. Of course, he still remembers my suspicion of him as being purely an OMGUS. (Hey, I've got the perfect scum plan now, accuse everybody in post number 1, then just scream OMGUS any time someone says anything against you...) Of course, he tried to head off any response by admitting he was calling me scummy for behavior similar to his own... I didn't see any of them invested in discussions, specially not in discussions concerning Keirathi and Drazerk. They just came, parked their vote on the "easy" target ("easy" in relative terms) and left. I see no town motivation at all in parking your vote and disappearing before discussing your reasoning with other people and waiting to see what others have to say. That's basically my point for being suspicious of you, along with this: The contrast between his initial "eagerness" to catch scum and his actual behaviour is very scummy. Again, also considering the fact that he doesn't seem to care about his read on Drazerk since he immediately disappeared later instead of trying to reason his read with others or with Drazerk himself. Is that behaviour similar to my own? I don't think so. Leave the "OMGUS" thing out of this since you weren't accusing me back then. Those are 2 completely unrelated things. Wut? I only anticipated that someone else may just come and say "oh lol look gonzaw is acting like Jingle!" and start a wagon on me when I wasn't actually acting like you (i.e I wouldn't vote you and disappear but would actually be there, answer questions and stuff). That is literally written there in the post, why did you misinterpret it like me suggesting you are either only "bad" or "scum"? (of course at that point I was more suggesting you were scum...since you know...I was voting you, was suspicious of you and that shit). Not if they work. Also completely unrelated to me being scum (maybe you can argue if I'm wrong or not, but that's for another discussion). Of course, Gonzaw does the same shit he's picking on Keirathi for. Oh, and here's another accusation. Keirathi, might as well not make a case, he'll just write it off as OMGUS and call you bad town. I don't get what you are saying here at all. This one actually seems to directly contradict itself, accusing me of appearance of contribution, not worried about convincing people of my read... oh but he wants the contributions of others. You didn't ask for contributions of others and you were "convinced" Drazerk was scum. There's no contradiction there. Remember this one, since his favorite defense is that I'm OMGUSing him. Oh, and more of that talking shit and smearing. ?? What does that post have anything to do with "Jingle is OMGUSing me"? You didn't start accusing me until after I voted iamperfection I think. If you want to get to the "OMGUSing" part: you accuse me because you were "paranoid" about me once I voted you, and then you failed to coherently explain why I was scum and started accusing me. Yes, I assumed this was OMGUS in part. Again, how does me thinking you were OMGUSing me makes me scum? Nevermind don't answer here I'll get to that later. Yet another post of Gonzaw wanting other people's opinions to jump on board with. It's a recurring theme. There's a difference between "wanting information" and "wanting other people's opinions". Either way I don't see anything wrong with either of them. Townies giving other townies their opinions is what makes town lynch scum in the end right? No comment Soft bus, possibly? He did unvote so he could move his "placeholder" vote once perfection had votes... if it's really a placeholder on either person why would you move it when one of them gets momentum? Awkward. Okay, I just looked back and the only "momentum" iamperfection had was 1 post Mementos did. Nobody ever mentioned iamperfection at all before I left (check it here and in the next page). Hell other than that vote from Mementos there was no momentum on iamperfection I did notice that, there was no momentum on iamperfection and I had to leave to uni in 10 minutes so I had to decide what to do: vote the guy that could be scum but has no momentum? Or vote the guy that could also be scum but may gain more momentum (you)? Since Mattchew voted you I guessed the lynch would consolidate better against you than on iamperfection. But to be honest, like I said it was a placeholder so I wasn't sure who I wanted lynched, I just voted you in the spur of the moment for those reasons above. 0 consolidation on the lynch, with some random guys voting Drazerk, and I was leaving in 20 minutes. I'm sure you can see why I was panicking right? Here's that change from one placeholder (who flipped scum) to another one. Me. A guy who thinks he's scum. lol no, you only were "paranoid" about me by that point, and you even posted that post after I started working on mine: On October 01 2012 23:59 gonzaw wrote: Ha this is funny (I made my previous post before you posted yours though) Although again....why does that make me scum? Talking shit, fairly random change of opinion about Draz, who he formerly thought wasn't scum, who really wasn't doing much that could be more than a null tell, yet again accusing half the thread. (Oops, like I said, if we suspect him, must be an OMGUS!) Ever since this post of yours, you've been calling me almost "confirmed scum" even though the last thing you said about me was "getting paranoid". For instance these are the next posts you make about me/Matt: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174¤tpage=13#248 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174¤tpage=13#257 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174¤tpage=14#265 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174¤tpage=15#292 Out of nowhere you suddenly have strong scumreads on me and Matt, even though you barely talked about us. Again, you just mentioned the "I'm paranoid about him because of X, Y and Z", and then you started saying things like "yeah gonzaw makes a 'placeholder' vote and will be back after the deadline that's so fabricated" After the lynch came this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174¤tpage=20#399 ..where you basically consider me "confirmed scum" and you keep the same attitude ever since, even though I didn't do anything at all since my last post from D1. I just went from "guy you were paranoid about" to "confirmed scum" even when I didn't do anything at all and you didn't even "find" scummy things or made a case. How the hell am I supposed to interpret that? Also, I forgot: I'm sure someone will scream OMGUS at me saying that It's you the one that was obsessed with "people will call OMGUS on me", not me. Again, remember this post where you were whining about the same exact thing before anything related to OMGUS happened in the thread at all: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=372174¤tpage=8#159 Also remember what I wrote: Chill out, don't OMGUS, pay attention and don't get all cocky and arrogant and spam the thread with those defenses of yours. It's not "lol Jingle is OMGUSing me that stupid bitch". It's advice. Advice that apparently means I was "starting a fight" with you that I still don't get at this point in time. Why did I make that advice? Well see above (you considering me almost confirmed scum "out of nowhere" and getting all pissy about it). People change their minds. I said I was going to look into Nisani/Drazerk/S&B/Mementos on D2 and that's what I did. After I re-checked their filters I figured Nisani was more likely scum than S&B, even though S&B didn't do shit at all (I started to realize that maybe S&B was being too obvious as scum and was legitimately busy, which made me doubt my scumread on him later on D2) Ehmm...I don't get this part. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
from austin: Can you be a little more thorough when you're talking about momentum here? What made you think that there was less momentum on iamperfection, who had just garnered 2 votes from you and mementoss, than on JH, who had an 18-hour old vote from Mattchew (and who you'd already UNVOTED after Mattchew had voted. You were on him before Mattchew's vote, then hopped off of him ATER Mattchew's vote, then back on because of the momentum of Mattchew's old vote?). I remember you doing a lot of speculating in Can't Believe, and it looked bad. I remember finding you absolutely scummy when obsing that Magic game because of your speculating. So I know the speculation and fishing might be townie, even though you're poking around some scummy areas. But the momentum explanation for the vote doesn't really explain why you'd UNVOTE JH after Mattchew's vote, then re-vote later because of "momentum" and being more certain town would consolidate on JH. Nobody was joining Mattchew, and mementoss had just joined you on iamperfection. Yes, Mementos voted iamp, but that's only 1 other vote from a guy that never showed up at discussions and had very little thread presence. If one guy shows up, casts his vote on 1 other guy and then leaves, barely showing up later to drive the wagon against that guy or be part of discussion...do you think that's momentum? (also, I don't consider my own vote as "momentum" since I can change it anytime I want). It's not. I voted iamp based on a hunch about "who of these null guys is the most scummy?". Only Mementos showed up with his vote and after that didn't do anything about iamperfection (he just asked me 1 question). That's the opposite of momentum, hell I'd consider that a lack of interest in his lynch. Remember 8 frigging hours passed between me voting iamperfection and me unvoting him...and nothing happened in between, there was no momentum, nothing, only iamperfection accusing ghost a little bit more and me explaining him why voting ghost is easy and why his vote on ghost was easy. I may not have given the best explanation about thinking Jingle would have the "most momentum", but Mattchew had voted him and found him scummy, and I think other people posted suspicions on him. You know how Mattchew acted before, he was pretty active and contributing and shit. He wouldn't act like Mementos and cast 1 vote and disappear from the face of the earth, if he wanted to lynch someone he'd get that lynch done. Again, having lots of weak reads, with the one I had a "hunch" on not going anywhere, in the very little time I had left I rethought my stance on Jingle, thought about this whole "It's more likely Jingle can get lynched because of Mattchew/momentum/shit", got paranoid about Jingle acting all "oh if I do anything at all people will say I was OMGUSing therefore I won't do anything" and whiny and in the spur of the moment I voted him. I don't think I even thought about voting Jingle when I was writing that 1st part of the post. When I decided to vote him I wrote that "fuck it" line and went to uni. I don't know why speculating is bad lol. Like...townies have almost 0 information (unless they are blue). Yes, I know townies should "speculate" on their own and then basically post when everything fits in their heads...but well that rarely happens in my case. I rarely have a "very convincing idea" in my head when reading the game that I can just make into 1 post and then leave and be done with it. I need the discussion, I need people posting to see their behaviour and attitude and mannerisms when they do, and also at times some opinions on the guys I'm suspicious of to see how the rest of town thinks of them (to make up my mind). I don't think I was ever able to fake that as scum...like ever. This is the only aspect where people don't use meta on me to find me townie :/ About (2) (the role/blue/etc fishing): Yes I was fishing. I want to know the crazy shit that's going on in this game to understand it better. Also maybe you guys don't know but I also have abilities and stuff (not a big deal, I assume every townie has at least 1 ability) and I have to make sense of all that's happening to use them properly or know when/how to use them. I didn't want people to just go claiming and shit, but rather know basic stuff like who was JKed, who was RBed, if something weird happened (like someone getting "visited by a demon" or some shit), etc. If you remember, the night ended with just 1 kill and no claims of actions whatsoever. Considering this is a heavily themed game that was weird as fuck (I would have expected at least 1 scum having the power to incinerate someone or stripping someone from his votes or something like that). On October 06 2012 03:41 JingleHell wrote: And you're right, it may entirely be too wide of a net. I actually left a lot of shit out to try and avoid diluting excessively, but I figure given that I could easily be accused of confirmation bias (which, might I add, doesn't mean I'm automatically and categorically WRONG in finding Gonzaw scummy) it's better to provide a LOT of backing, rather than looking like I'm overly cherrypicking one or two posts. Usually, providing a LOT of raw data increases the chances of some of that data not going the direction you want. Thus, it's more fair-minded, and demonstrates that I'm not just basing my assumptions off of one or two things that, on their own, would be tiny. Just because a lot of the individual shreds of it are small, doesn't mean they don't add up to a lot. Generally if you try to analyze every single detail about someone else's play you'll encounter that problem. You'll get a lot of "raw data" that you can't just handle and may use confirmation bias, or may get confused, or may try to dwell into WIFOM and fuck up with your head (there are times where this happens to me a lot). Anyways, I guess I'm kind of angry at you because I know my own intentions that I had in my posts and I know you are heavily misinterpreting them. Huh, I guess that's the problem with playing in text-form. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [defense] + This was one of those non-defenses... implying active people can't be scum, and people who just post huge lists probably are. I know it's been a few posts since Part 1, but hopefully we all remember plenty of examples of Gonzaw just posting huge lists? Not alignment-indicative Speaks for itself, but even I have to admit that this sort of evidence is barely damning in and of itself. Not alignment-indicative, even you admit it is not. Semi-randomly suggesting which of his earlier town reads he'd throw out. Since he's suddenly running out of people he thought were scummy. Maybe he tried to hard to look town by calling people town? Confirmation bias Remember how hard he was trying to force me making a case? You'd think he'd have more responses than "That doesn't make sense" and "You're just too shit to get it, and that's advice, not an insult" and "OMGUS". Ok, so we're pretty caught up now. Irrelevant, not alignment-indicative I don't see anything I did wrong. In fact I should be actually calling you out since I made a perfectly reasonable defense and you straight up ignored it to post a bunch of unrelated stuff and label it a "case" (I won't since that's not really alignment-indicative of you, at least in the context of this game). | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
I see you are still convinced I'm scum and won't change your mind no matter anything I do. Let me give you another piece advice: Step back, read filters, preferably read the thread as well and try to analyze the flow of the thread in this game and how I participated in it, with what motivation I did and what I achieved doing so If you still think I'm scum then, well I'll be disappointed but at least I'll be somewhat relieved that you at least tried and are most likely town (if you are scum you wouldn't put that effort at all) and that you at least are trying to win this game for town (whether you are wrong about me or not). | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On October 06 2012 04:12 austinmcc wrote: Gonzaw, I've seen you fish as town. I speculate as town. But it's troubling when you're only doing it over protective roles, and especially troubling when one reason you were fishing is to try and get scum to shoot someone who claimed a protective role so that we wouldn't have him as a suspect. Well, I don't know any other mechanics to specify information on. There may be a "town bus driver who roleblocks those he visits and sends them to purgatory where they play cards and each gain 1-shot bullet to use at day" but I can't go asking "did someone receive a 1-shot bullet after being RBed by a town bus driver?" (yeah kind of over-exaggerating here but you get the point). I can basically just ask if someone was JK'd (the JK just flipped), RBed or if something strange happened. Like, Drazerk's claim. Believe, not believe? If not believe, scummy or Drazerk-y? Having finished reading the filters. Unless you want the "short but possibly unfounded" answer. As to the momentum, yeah. 8 hours and no real push on iamperfection. But 15 hours and no real push on JH since Mattchew's vote. The biggest move on JH between Mattchew's vote and then your final vote was ... you unvoting him shortly after Mattchew's vote. Again, Mattchew>Mementos in terms of town presence And again, I made the choice in less than 10 minutes, I couldn't analyze everything. If you want I can just answer "I flipped a coin" and be done with it, since at some level it was basically that; I'm just rationalizing why I made one decision and not the other. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
....damn communication is sure failing hard in this game. I had to be a little bit "agressive" in parts because that's how defending against cases works (in trying to convince you how bad your point is for instance). Everybody does it, in every single game, every time, whether town or scum or 3rd party. You can't get butthurt over that @Keirathi: I was getting that feel after reading some filters and reasserting town reads I had (haven't finished yet), but I want to ask you one question: S&B got shot, Drazerk claimed the shot as 1-shot vigilante, and nobody else did. We can assume then that no other townie shot S&B, and it was Drazerk either way, right? If Drazerk didn't shoot him, then he's lying, therefore he's scum, but scum shot him and that includes Drazerk; therefore Drazerk shot him. My question is: did Drazerk shoot S&B or Hiro? (S&B claimed he protected Hiro). Unless Drazerk is 3rd party SK I don't see why he'd kill S&B as scum. I mean, scum would waste 2 KP on Mementos and S&B? I don't think I buy that. So basically: is Drazerk 3rd party who killed S&B so S&B didn't get on his ass (or maybe even shot Hiro as SK); or is Drazerk scum and shot Hiro? (or of course another explanation if you have one) (let this be an answer to austin in the meatime as well...the "short unfounded one") | ||
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