On October 02 2012 02:33 iamperfection wrote: @ JINGLE
Why do you have to feel you have to change your style if you are town? In the game i played with you i thought you played quite well and we did catch 1 scum because of mainly all of your effort. Was it just because of one bad performance?
Have you tried reading the thread, or my filter, to find the answer to that question? It's in there.
On October 02 2012 02:20 Drazerk wrote: Does anyone think the JH lynch feels off to anyone else?
I can't put my finger on it...
it just feels wrong
There's a combination of nobody really hard-defending him and nobody just BLASTING his play here, that I don't love, but I'm not sure how you'd get either of those with what we have to work with.
What are the alternatives? (I'm not voting snb because he should be interacting with you differently)ghost/nisani/iamperfection? It feels too much like RNGing between the three.
On October 02 2012 02:27 JingleHell wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:26 Mementoss wrote:
On October 02 2012 02:06 JingleHell wrote: I'm noticing a trend. Both of the main people who want to lynch me are trying very hard to not be seen as the ones forcing the issue, and are basing it off of... not that much. That's Mattchew and Gonzaw, of course.
Amusingly, out of people who have talked to or about me, the one I'd be least suspicious of voting me also seems to be the one most inclined to actually wait for a good reason, and that's Keirathi.
Instead of spreading doubt on your lynch when it isn't even close why don't you put together a post explaining your top 2 scums reads with some sort of explanation why?
Stop defending yourself at every turn and explaining yourself try to actually push a read for the lynch.
Because I already fucking did that, and people promptly ignored it and accused me of not playing, using it as motivation to push me as a target without committing to it?
I don't like Mattchew for scum, he's my strongest town-read right now. I don't like gonzaw for scum atm, although it'll take more time to figure that one out. I don't like me for scum, because I'm not. So those posts are out.
On October 01 2012 07:04 JingleHell wrote:
On October 01 2012 06:56 HiroPro wrote:
On October 01 2012 06:45 gonzaw wrote:
And I don't think your point on JingleHell is very good. I can see someone who isn't very familiar with Drazerk jumping on that.
What about my other points? That Jingle comes out to post just to "appear he's contributing" and "justify himself" and seems less interested about his actual read and convincing people of it?
I find this a bit weird, "seems less interested about his actual read and convincing people of it", but he could just be busy.
Frankly, I'm more interested to hear what he has to say about other people.
Ignoring my paranoia about people bandwagoning on what could turn out to be bad reads, if I go pointing to Mattchew's actively-lurky accusation of me actively lurking, he'd just say OMGUS. Not much else he's done that's really worth analyzing, without breaking down silly things, which will always end up making someone look scummy.
Gonzaw, who's mixing a tunnel my direction, and asking for the tail to wag the dog (he keeps pointing my way, and asking everyone else to dive in before he commits any harder), would scream OMGUS if I made that into a case.
Draz, who I unvoted, I'm continuing to keep an eye on.
A lot of us, minimal posting.
If I rip into Ghost for his rather funky post that's already been commented on, people who are already looking at me based on napkin-thin logic will assume I'm trying to redirect suspicion (which, realistically, they'd say about anything probably, but still.) It's "too easy" to jump on board with that, and while I dislike the post, I'm assuming it made more sense in his head, because that's too often the case with posts that get people shredded on D1.
And I'm trying not to lead into cases based on over-analyzing one or two posts yet, because when I do that, I do a better job of persuading people than is good for town, so I'm waiting for larger patterns.
And, as always, if anyone likes one of Gonzaw's questions for me, please repeat it, because I don't feel like indulging him.
This is your other post where you mention a few people, and it IS the best thing in your filter. But...it doesn't really have much to it. Gonzaw tunneling you. You're keeping an eye on Drazerk. Ghost's post looks bad but you won't deal with it because we'll jump on you. You mention a lot of names, but you don't SAY anything.
How does your eye feel about Drazerk atm? Do you think ghost's post/vote looks different or worse than iamperfection and nisani?
I don't require you to agree with my reads, or vote based on them. But to dismiss them as not playing and being scummy just because you disagree is ludicrous, especially if you aren't willing or able to argue with my reasoning for those reads.
I'm still not sure about Drazerk. He's fucking hard to read, and anything I could make on him could just as easily be over-analysis. I'm still leaning potential scum.
Also, if my strongest reads are Mattchew and Gonzaw, I'm going to focus them more. Just to be realistic, if I go accusing the entire thread of being scummy based on one or two things, it's not going to contribute to discussion either.
I recently gave a "possible town" read on Keirathi because he at least makes sense when he discusses what he finds suspicious about me. I didn't say it in as many words, but that was the intent of the post. Oh, right, that got dismissed as me throwing doubts on anyone voting me.
Ghost, I've discussed a small amount. If I was going to be worried, it would be more based on lurkiness. Usually, a one post wonder lynch target D1 turns out to be a mislynch, especially when there's so much room for interpretation in the post. If we don't see more from him, though, he'll start looking like a target.
Sorry if I don't sound particularly heavy handed regarding people who aren't my primary reads right now, but I'm not playing to make you happy, I'm playing to hunt scum.
I don't find your reads scummy because I disagree with them. I find that POST scummy because it brings up a bunch of players, give a tiny thought on each, and moves on. There's no ... substance.
There's not much besides hunches based on small things to work with. I could go through their filter with a fine tooth comb and a negative outlook and make them look so scummy their own mothers would want to lynch them, but frankly, that's got a nasty tendency to not make good cases.
On October 02 2012 02:33 iamperfection wrote: @ JINGLE
Why do you have to feel you have to change your style if you are town? In the game i played with you i thought you played quite well and we did catch 1 scum because of mainly all of your effort. Was it just because of one bad performance?
Have you tried reading the thread, or my filter, to find the answer to that question? It's in there.
i did read it. my point is who gives a shit if you had one bad game. It takes a village and i find it strange you would completly change your style just because of that.
Because if I'm wrong and persuasive, it's BAD. As a townie in PTP3, I was probably the scum MVP. I made bad reads and good cases, and hurt the town badly. Since I don't want to repeat that, I'm hoping people will reach their own conclusions, but instead they're all looking for someone to sheep.
So Gonzaw tries to create a connection between totally unrelated votes, and Mattchew assumes that someone who didn't post for most of the first half of D1 is active lurking. This makes you decide that they're clearly worthy of sheeping, even though neither of them seems to want to be the one leading the wagon?
After all, Gonzaw called his vote a throwaway, and Mattchew keeps screaming my name and putting his vote elsewhere. Kind of like Gonzaw did at one point.
On October 02 2012 04:36 JingleHell wrote: So Gonzaw tries to create a connection between totally unrelated votes, and Mattchew assumes that someone who didn't post for most of the first half of D1 is active lurking. This makes you decide that they're clearly worthy of sheeping, even though neither of them seems to want to be the one leading the wagon?
After all, Gonzaw called his vote a throwaway, and Mattchew keeps screaming my name and putting his vote elsewhere. Kind of like Gonzaw did at one point.
No. They're not worthy of sheeping for that, they come off town to me for that. And for the other stuff mentioned above.
It DOES seem like neither wants to lead the wagon. However, Mattchew pretty clearly wants to lead a vote on iamperfection. How is him clearly wanting to lead a lynch on someone else scummy because he won't lead a lynch on you?
It's scummy because neither of them has yet to make sense in their suspicions, neither wants to lead it, both want to direct suspicion at me, and both have demonstrated willingness to sheep onto me for little to no reason.
That looks less like scumhunting and more like avoiding suspicion. Avoiding suspicion is, at best, a null tell, and certainly not validation for strong town reads.
On October 02 2012 04:36 JingleHell wrote: So Gonzaw tries to create a connection between totally unrelated votes, and Mattchew assumes that someone who didn't post for most of the first half of D1 is active lurking. This makes you decide that they're clearly worthy of sheeping, even though neither of them seems to want to be the one leading the wagon?
After all, Gonzaw called his vote a throwaway, and Mattchew keeps screaming my name and putting his vote elsewhere. Kind of like Gonzaw did at one point.
No. They're not worthy of sheeping for that, they come off town to me for that. And for the other stuff mentioned above.
It DOES seem like neither wants to lead the wagon. However, Mattchew pretty clearly wants to lead a vote on iamperfection. How is him clearly wanting to lead a lynch on someone else scummy because he won't lead a lynch on you?
It's scummy because neither of them has yet to make sense in their suspicions, neither wants to lead it, both want to direct suspicion at me, and both have demonstrated willingness to sheep onto me for little to no reason.
That looks less like scumhunting and more like avoiding suspicion. Avoiding suspicion is, at best, a null tell, and certainly not validation for strong town reads.
You think...Mattchew is pursuing iamperfection this hard, not because he wants to hunt scum, but because he wants to avoid suspicion?
Pursuing him hard? He wasn't the first. Here's his "analysis".
On October 02 2012 00:39 Mattchew wrote: gonna hop right back into the thread with some analysis
I believe iamperfection is scum and I would like everyone to click on his filter
On October 01 2012 04:22 ghost_403 wrote: I'm pretty happy lynching Keirathi right now. He's putting way too much effort into scumhunting on Day 1 to build up towncred. Looking through previous filters when there's been, what, twenty posts in this game? No, that's not something that townies do. I vote we lynch him today, and mementoss tomorrow. WHO'S WITH ME.
##vote keirathi
We are seriously going to allow this crap? Ive played about 6 games of tl mafia and this is the biggest pile of crap ive seen yet.
## Vote ghost_403
This post clearly mis-reads what ghost is trying to say and jumps on him with a hyperbole and what feels like a very fake sense of confidence. The way this post is worded is not as much anger as much as it reads "grab your pitchforks and bandwagon with me"
After this, his teeth are sunk into ghost, and he is afraid to move. He also has failed to comment on literally anyone else in the thread. His reasoning is bad, his contributions are next to nothing.
Honestly I don't think anything more needs to be written. Enough time has past for iamperfection to comment on other players, or contribute to actual discussion. His reasoning for pushing a ghost lynch is bad and grasping at straws.
##unvote ##vote Iamperfection
On October 02 2012 01:15 Mattchew wrote: austin why arent you voting iamperfection with me?
On October 02 2012 01:15 Mattchew wrote: austin why arent you voting iamperfection with me?
Oh noes, I forgot.
##Vote: iamperfection
Sorry about that.
##Unvote
Why am I voting iamperfection over others? He, ghost, and nisani all seem in the same boat where they just dropped votes on someone for weak reasoning and left. Between them, we can't have the whole time, but I like finding a mafia in there.
iamperfection doesn't seem to care about anything other than ghost's vote
ghost doesn't seem to care about anything other than keirathi's early game effort and...HiroPro? While I agree that the hiro = town comment doesn't feel scummy, how is ghost as a scum player? Half of his posts are just questions to HiroPro and then ducking out. I don't see a scum agenda behind what he asked and what hero answered, it was just "what is happening/what are your reads," but I dislike that he only engages a single person in the thread.
On October 01 2012 04:26 ghost_403 wrote: So, hiro, whatchoo think's going on in this here thread?
On October 01 2012 04:40 ghost_403 wrote: Alright, Hiro, so who do you think we should be lynching today? So far, all you've done in this game is setup speculation (a big no-no), and what else?
On October 01 2012 04:46 ghost_403 wrote: Hiro goes on my town list because no anti-town faction would be dumb enough to say that.
Still wanna lynch Keirathi.
Actually hadn't noticed the odd amount of hiro-only posts considering the size of his filter.
nisani hasn't done anything since Drazerk reacted to Keirathi's initial unvote. Actually...nisani reads the towniest of the three to me?
On October 01 2012 06:54 Nisani201 wrote:
On October 01 2012 06:25 Keirathi wrote: As a bonus answer, Nisani is the other person (besides ghost) that I am particularly interested in right now. I feel like him jumping in to defend me against Drazerk because I was a "newbie" was taking advantage of an easy situation.
I recently played a game on another forum where I was pushed hard throughout the entire game because I made a small "newbie mistake" at the beginning. This game seems very similar and I don't want us to make the same mistake.
Not sure what to think of ghost, I think it's pretty stupid for anyone to vote Kei. I'm also not sure why drazerk took his vote off kei, since it doesn't look like anything really changed his mind.
I also think that Mementoss's "analysis" post was really stupid. It was a bad case on austin and the other half was him calling people town. He's on my radar but I'm still more confident in Drazerk.
doesn't flip out when someone is looking at him. Gives some thoughts on other players, although they're tremendously small.
Seriously. That post, that tiny answer, is basically the towniest thing I find in any of those three filters. Why am I lynching iamperfection over the other two? I don't give ghost as many town points as you do for his hiro post, and I find his hiro fascination odd. I'm more concerned with JH. I think you were right in noting that he de-lurked right after getting called out. But where you say he's explaining this thought process thoroughly, I disagree. I'm not sure I get the change between PTP3 and here, maybe I didn't read the early days of PTP3 close enough to see this, but I remember JH in PTP3 being standoffish and unwilling to do anything but push single players. Being passive certainly provides an alternative playstyle to that, but it's not actually...doing anything. It doesn't seem to actually be BETTER or anything than PTP3 JH, and I'd expect someone who was unhappy with a bad performance to want to follow it up with a good performance, which this isn't. This is just excuses for NO performance.
ghost has provided opinions confidently. Do you feel that he is hiding something or just doesnt care about adding in extended explainations?
Nisani is more of a meta read for me, but I see him play like this a decent amount
Iamperfection is purposefully ignoring the rest of the thread and is not trying to actually help town with anything useful or anything that resembles effort.
JH as i have said, is a lynch I would support but I would much rather lynch iamperfection
lets expand on this... what do you think of his contributions to the game. What do you think of his read on ghost? Do you agree with his reasoning? What would make you think he is town?
Wow, that's such strong pressure! Including a desire to get OTHER people to provide a rationale for it.
This looks more like fake scumhunting than real. Sheeping, asking others to contribute to his paper thin case, and making noise about a lack of contribution. The exact same formula he used to jump on me.
In other words, yeah right. Hell, at this point, I'm convincing myself to vote Mattchew over Gonzaw...
On October 02 2012 05:02 Drazerk wrote: Cross you can't apply flip logic to me don't try.
Well then I guess I'm just going to have to flip a coin or roll a die to decide if you're scum or not because without flip logic I'm going to have nothing on you because I'm already confused by you. lol
I have that effect on people
I think the correct solution is to wait for a vigi to get frustrated and find out for us.
On October 02 2012 05:33 Drazerk wrote: and pushing non lynch targets is a pretty good thing to do as scum IMO
Well, speaking of not assuming what scum would or wouldn't do... since we're in the realm of pure, unadulterated WIFOM from the purest sense of the word, it's also good for scum to push lynch targets. Since people assume that's not scum behavior, since it can be harder to keep things straight, it lets you hide in plain sight.
On October 02 2012 05:36 Drazerk wrote: Safe non controversial day 1 target - iamperf flips town - JH gains huge town momentum - JH wins game.
Ah, but see, scum me could KNOW that you might think that, at which point scum me could easily break a deadlock, and point to how no scum would dive into such dangerous waters, scum Jingle gains huge momentum, scum Jingle wins game! Except Drazerk might know that I know and know my plan, so then he'd see that possibility! But I'm ready for that, so...
On October 02 2012 05:36 Drazerk wrote: Safe non controversial day 1 target - iamperf flips town - JH gains huge town momentum - JH wins game.
Ah, but see, scum me could KNOW that you might think that, at which point scum me could easily break a deadlock, and point to how no scum would dive into such dangerous waters, scum Jingle gains huge momentum, scum Jingle wins game! Except Drazerk might know that I know and know my plan, so then he'd see that possibility! But I'm ready for that, so...
Fuck it. DUCK SEASON!
Enter into the WIFOM door
Well, that was kind of my point. Literally any and every action can be both scummy and townie, depending on individual perceptions. There's no such thing as a "safe" scum action, since all it takes is one persuasive individual perceiving things correctly.
I do think it's silly how Austin is still hung up on my "False premise" regarding Mattchew, when we're basically discussing how there's no such thing as a false premise in Mafia.
On October 02 2012 05:36 Drazerk wrote: Safe non controversial day 1 target - iamperf flips town - JH gains huge town momentum - JH wins game.
Ah, but see, scum me could KNOW that you might think that, at which point scum me could easily break a deadlock, and point to how no scum would dive into such dangerous waters, scum Jingle gains huge momentum, scum Jingle wins game! Except Drazerk might know that I know and know my plan, so then he'd see that possibility! But I'm ready for that, so...
Fuck it. DUCK SEASON!
Enter into the WIFOM door
Well, that was kind of my point. Literally any and every action can be both scummy and townie, depending on individual perceptions. There's no such thing as a "safe" scum action, since all it takes is one persuasive individual perceiving things correctly.
I do think it's silly how Austin is still hung up on my "False premise" regarding Mattchew, when we're basically discussing how there's no such thing as a false premise in Mafia.
Unless you're gonna flip red here and prove me wrong, there are some posts that just don't come from townies.
Not that every townie every game posts something that shows he/she's town, but sometimes they pop up. Haven't been wrong about one yet.
Well, I'm less worried about being flipped than I am about the possibility of flipping with people not seeing the attack on me in the correct light. Dying as a townie can be irksome, but it can say a lot about the people in the game.
In PTP3, for example, early-ish, I was after Mattchew pretty hard. I was a townie. My power had randomly redirected his vigi shot. His claim looked really awkward, but then I claimed my role, to keep him from getting lynched for the wrong reason.
If there's anything worse than townies being wrong, it's deliberately ignoring possible information.
That, however, is exactly what you're doing. Regardless of the reason, you consider my concept of someone wanting to push without seeming to lead a push as insane, impossible, or improbable. That's disregarding a conclusion that the facts can lead to, even when we've just recently discussed that due to WIFOM, every action can be scummy or not scummy.
On October 02 2012 06:05 ghost_403 wrote: JH, why are you spending so much time defending yourself instead of just hunting for scum? And austin, why are you taking part of this conversation? I'm trying to figure out what the two of you are actually talking about, and I can't figure it out.
Ghost, hunt for scum first, then question the amount of scumhunting I've done.
On October 02 2012 06:09 ghost_403 wrote: @Keir: I'll give you something to argue about as soon as I'm done writing it. Still convinced Nisani is scum?
I wouldn't say that I'm convinced that he is scum. But yes, he is the person I feel strongest about. His posts regarding me reek of someone with extra information.
You're one of one person currently on that vote, best of my knowledge. If you're so convinced he's scum, why aren't you pushing for it in the thread?
What else can I say? I voted for him, and tried to get people to read why and comment on it, but I was just ignored. Everyone is just giving him a null read (or maybe slightly scummy, but not enough to vote). So I settled for talking about the other ongoing cases and deciding if I find someone scummier than Nisani. I haven't yet.
EBWOP: What I mean is, the case isn't gaining traction, and I don't think I have enough to convince anyone off of their null reads to vote for him. He has very little in the way of content for people to analyze. Its getting down to crunch time and we're going to have to consolidate onto someone at some point. Last I looked, there were literally votes on 8 out of the 13 players. Continuing to push someone that isn't going to get lynched is useless.
We don't have to consolidate at all. Greymist is just being confusing.
This game is a simple majority lynch. Whoever has the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.
From the OP. The description includes the word majority, but it's a simple majority, with the description not matching what we think of as "Majority lynch".
On October 02 2012 06:09 ghost_403 wrote: @Keir: I'll give you something to argue about as soon as I'm done writing it. Still convinced Nisani is scum?
I wouldn't say that I'm convinced that he is scum. But yes, he is the person I feel strongest about. His posts regarding me reek of someone with extra information.
You're one of one person currently on that vote, best of my knowledge. If you're so convinced he's scum, why aren't you pushing for it in the thread?
What else can I say? I voted for him, and tried to get people to read why and comment on it, but I was just ignored. Everyone is just giving him a null read (or maybe slightly scummy, but not enough to vote). So I settled for talking about the other ongoing cases and deciding if I find someone scummier than Nisani. I haven't yet.
EBWOP: What I mean is, the case isn't gaining traction, and I don't think I have enough to convince anyone off of their null reads to vote for him. He has very little in the way of content for people to analyze. Its getting down to crunch time and we're going to have to consolidate onto someone at some point. Last I looked, there were literally votes on 8 out of the 13 players. Continuing to push someone that isn't going to get lynched is useless.
We don't have to consolidate at all. Greymist is just being confusing.
This game is a simple majority lynch. Whoever has the most votes at the end of the day will be lynched.
From the OP. The description includes the word majority, but it's a simple majority, with the description not matching what we think of as "Majority lynch".
Yes, I realize that. Its basically plurality.
That doesn't mean we don't need to consolidate. Having votes out on 2/3 of the players in the game just gives scum a place to hide. IMO, we need a polarized vote so that scum are forced to pick a side and justify it.
So that we can argue WIFOM with each other regarding what votes mean, when the scum team will actually be divided anyways most likely?
No, the main reason I could imagine seeing that as critical would be if we were at MYLO, to make it a little harder for scum to swing last minute.
Those are both discussing specific situations, where consolidation might have benefited the town directly, from what I can tell.
It's a nice theory, but it still comes down to "Do you believe X's reason to vote for Y is legitimate?" "Do you believe X is scum?"
As a counterpoint, "Consolidation" provides the perfect excuse to hop wagons without a valid reason. "Everyone wanted to consolidate, and I felt like X was slightly scummier than Y. Blame Q for suggesting we consolidate, not me!"
There's never guarantees, and anything can be turned to an advantage by anyone, if the circumstances and argument are right.
I don't think one option or the other is inherently any better. At least if you don't push for consolidation, then people who choose to consolidate might still face serious pressure to explain a mislynch vote.
Luckily, Gonzaw is an arrogant dipshit who forgets that while he was wishy-washy tunneling me, he was actually just throwing around throwaway votes and has no room to "I told you so" anyone, or expect to be treated as town for his vote.
Let's get him tomorrow, gents.
Or am I supposed to ignore his tone in his post and bathe in good feelings because he agreed that I'm town while he spewed all sorts of shit?
EPT
