EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXVIII
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Sonic Death Monkey
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Sonic Death Monkey
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/in Please don't NK me n1 this time, my reads suck and I'm anti-town whether I want to or not (Alsn can attest to this). | ||
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On September 26 2012 11:13 kushm4sta wrote: im going to lurk more this game I will take your word for this. Once your filter reaches 10 pages I will policy lynch you no matter what. | ||
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On September 26 2012 23:52 DarthPunk wrote: Hmm. I am not in the player list. Is there a problem? Not updated. Edit: actually it seems like he missed you... | ||
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On September 26 2012 23:54 DarthPunk wrote: I /in'd after Z-Boson and Before Kush. Seems like I should be on it still ^_^ Yeah, just realized that. | ||
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On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote: @sonic getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. Encouraging newbie towns to post is more important than typing out the same things I've said about lurker policy in XXVI and XXVII yet again: If we don't have a good scum case (lurker or active) by late d1, we lynch the most suspicious lurker. We should obviously be looking to avoid that scenario by scum hunting. That's really all that needs to be said as far as I'm concerned. | ||
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On September 28 2012 09:10 Z-BosoN wrote: This is a rather useless post. Newbie towns want to scumhunt. Newbie scum want to look like they are scumhunting. That =/= posting a lot but not for the sake of posting, or whatever you meant. And please tell me, what do you mean? You say you hope to have moved past the lurker discussion, and yet you are telling people to post a lot? In my eyes you are telling people not to lurk because that will make them seem scummy. It seems to me that you are indirectly stating your views on lurkers despite openly saying you don't want to talk about them. First paragraph, I agree newbie town wants to scum hunt. Problem is many don’t know how to scum hunt and end up low volume posters because they’re anxious to say something stupid. Pretty much what Stutters summed up, I’m saying that it’s better they engage in discussions, ask questions and try build cases they like. They will probably end up making a few stupid cases, but it’s our responsibility to see that their motivations weren’t scummy. If they remain low volume posters, it’s much more difficult to see what their motivations are. Second paragraph, I’m saying this is a game of information and we need players to post. Scum don’t want to post, if they could decide then no one would post anything and they win almost 100% of the time. Town posts in order to be able to solve the game and in the process we force scum to post as well. I’m not saying lurkers are necessarily scummy, just look at XXVII. Lurkers aren’t necessarily scummy, but they’re 100% anti-town. That’s why, if all else fail, we lynch the most scummy lurker. I’m a bit surprised I had to explain that post to someone who seem to have some experience. I could see attacking my post as an early game town strategy to get things started, but even after there were more interesting things going on it was still your main talking point. I do somewhat sympathize with your point that people should be forced to defend themselves, but I don’t see why a townie would push a weak case against someone who’s not even around to defend himself. I’m still in the process of reading up on the thread. Will be able to post more of my thoughts later tonight. | ||
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On September 29 2012 03:58 Z-BosoN wrote: Couple of things in your post: 1) Wrong. Like you said, finish up reading the thread. 2) I'm not pushing a case, for the last fucking time. Here are some guiding thoughts that I judge noteworthy, as you are reading off the thread: 1) Two people have defended you from my overly-aggressive post: Alsn, and debears. I find Alsn's reaction much more natural-looking than debears, please look at his filter and see if you agree. 2) wagon against kush. Kush's play definitely has some scummy-looking elements that people are currently wagoning over. Personally the main thing that gets to me is what I've answered DP's post with. See if you agree with these. 1) You made those posts after Kush's scum slip was brought up. Long after even. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 14:26 Z-BosoN wrote: @debear Have you ever heard about instigating discussion? You know, getting people to talk? I don't like how you defended SDM. You stated your views on lurkers, so that means you must agree that this type of discussion has some validity: Yet, you don't address SDM's blatant "I don't give a crap about policy lynch discussion's" stance? Seems rather odd to me. ##FoS debears On September 28 2012 15:36 Z-BosoN wrote: I don't care who you've played with. You make it a point to say your view on lurkers. You defend him for absolutely no reason, when his views implicitly contradict yours. If you were townie, I wouldn't think this to be a priority for you. I am not focused on lurker discussion, I am focused on the inconsistency you've presented. The issue of "Lurker policy" is not what is at hand. The issue at hand is why you are bothering to defend him (and now kush) instead of letting them defend themselves. It feels extremely forced right now, as townies are supposedly scouring the thread for blood. That's why the FOS. Regarding your "case", it seems to me like the only think you've got going is my general usefulness. And I already said it in form of a question, but now I'll answer it more bluntly so you can't dismiss it: I am instigating discussion. Read all my posts and see if that's what I'm trying to accomplish. From my perspective it's weird you're still focusing entirely on debears at that point. 2) I'm not saying you're pushing a case against me, but you're pushing a case against debears. To me it seems this case is based on him defending me. Do you really find it all that weird that he explains that my post isn't scummy? I'd be interested in hearing if you've got more to your case. To clarify, I was pushing a similar case against Debears in XXVII on the first day. He was going out of his way defending thrawn. The difference here is that he's not so much defending me as he is attacking you. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On September 05 2012 13:25 kushm4sta wrote: I pushed the cubu vote because 1)he was a bad poster/lurker and it worked as a policy lynch if nothing else 2)how he turned revealed a lot about thrawn, who i assumed medic or jb would save because he was the obvious choice in my mind I thought it was very fishy that thrawn tried to redirect twice, and so I got very excited with the prospect of identifying two mafia in the first day. Also at the time I thought, as did thrawn, that kville was going to be replaced. So that's why I called him the worst townie. Now it's clear that honor belongs to kville. Also jacob I don't get how this is a good argument? It's reasoning is only one sentence: I think he means that then thrawn would be mafia, but right now that sentence, which is his ONLY argumentation, makes no sense. I didn't think anyone else seemed more scumlike than he did. Although I did know that was a big chance of him not being scum. See, drazzy darling, when there are a ton of lurkers/terrible townies in the game like yourself, it makes it pretty fucking hard to win as town. And my last defense of myself is to invoke the holy name of the late thrawn, who, on the night of his untimely death, proclaimed me as his biggest town read. Read his defense of me because I'm sure it's better than anything I could do. REST IN PEACE THRAWN TT Not to OMGUS, but this actually makes drazak seem quite suspicious to me. Mostly because I am the most active poster now that thrawn is gone. Maybe I'm biased about the matter but what do other people think? I will look through his filter more tomorrow. Kush tends to OMGUS whether scum or town, but the way in which he OMGUS differs. When scum he's confident and aggressive, when town he's more diplomatic and logical. In this game, the former certainly holds true. Other than that, town Kush seems to focus scum hunting (check his early XXVI filter) while scum Kush is focusing on defending himself and posting tons of fluff (he even mentioned in the XXVII Mafia QT that his strategy was to post a shit ton). In this game his scum hunting is pretty much non-existent while he's been defending himself and posting fluff just like in XXVII. The most significant piece of information in this game though is his scum slip and his explanation. The slip is significant. I have a really hard time believing that the mother of all OMGUSing would be calling his attacker townie. Unless, of course, he's in possession of extra information and it's a slip. His defense isn't very convincing. On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: 2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro. Of course he's been using "people" and "person" a lot in past games, but this post from XXVII is a good example on how he views his attackers: On September 18 2012 20:27 kushm4sta wrote: what I said about flame wars.. that is what I did in the last two previous games. for instance drazak accused me really hard and I basically just called him a bad player again and again. I am trying to avoid that this game though. I really hate waking up to people fosing me...feels bad It's also worth pointing out that drazak attacking him made Kush suspicious of drazak (post quoted above), he did the complete opposite of making a town read on him. At this point I need more time to make sense of all the back-and-forths between Debears, Boson, Alsn and Darth. For me, Kush's scum slip, weak explanation and inconsistencies makes him the #1 d1 lynching candidate right now. Him being a potential late game liability is gravy. ##Vote Kush | ||
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On September 29 2012 04:52 Z-BosoN wrote: SDM, don't change things here. In 1) you said that my focus was entirely on you. Now you've changed it to debears. 2) Same thing, don't play the fool. We both can tell you meant yourself in your post which I've bolded earlier. Now I know that you are willing to make up arguments to not admit how bad your posts were. That tells me you are either highly arrogant, or a defensive scum. I will expand my case on debears in a sec. I still think he is scum. I'm not sure if you're trying to create a misunderstanding on purpose. It's clear to anyone who's read your filter that you're mainly focusing on Debears, but in order to really find debears suspicious on the basis on him explaining why my post wasn't scummy, you need to think the suspicion you directed towards me actually had some merit. And as far as I can tell that's what you've kept saying, for example: On September 29 2012 03:46 Z-BosoN wrote: debears, my case against you is not OMGUS. That's a dumb thing to say, granted I've explained to you why I find you scummy. I didn't call stutters out for lurking. I talked to him because I've played with him before, and conveyed my will that he should post more than he did in XXIV, because he makes decent posts, or at least made them in XXIV, as a townie. It's more of an "acknowledgement" towards someone I've already played with. I didn't call him out for being afk. I attacked SDM because of HOW he said he would be afk, as if he was blatantly avoiding posting because of his hate on lurker policy talking. AS IF. Which is why I've questioned him. I'm also being very clear here. I'm not pushing a case against SDM. I'm pushing a case against you, again, because I didn't find your reaction towards SDM natural at all. Answering SDM shortly. Here you're rationalizing how me being afk was more suspect than Stutters being afk and how defending my suspect reasoning is scummy by Debears. If that's what your case is based on it's basically based on nothing as far as I'm concerned. Just to make it clear, that doesn't mean I have a town read on Debear. Answering questions intended for others is generally anti-town, but he's also been doing some pro-town scum hunting. As for your motivations, I'm not sure. I could see them being both townie and scummy but I don't want to expand on that until I've given foursome interaction between you, Debears, Alsn and DP more thought. | ||
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On September 29 2012 05:25 kushm4sta wrote: that post of when I say player and person is actually from when I was scum. 1. that was.because.I put in extra effort to not make scum slips. this game I don't even give a fuck. 2.I.think people misunderstand.the nature of scumslips. I'm surprised that people who have been scum before don't realise this. Think of the scumslips you've made.They aren't obvious like that. I made plenty last game. 3. So you don't think I was aggressive my second game? Read the post where drazzak foses me. I.flame quite bad there.if I remember.correctly. People.critisize me for not scumhunting. Well I identified my top scum read and his scummy behavior. My time is not infinite though and people keep asking me questions I have to answer. Would you prefer I ignore questions? 1. I want to echo what Stutters just asked: If you're town, why would you feel the need to put extra effort into not making scum slips? That's big scum slip #2 in my book. 2. Yes, and you were scum last game. That's a really weird argument to make if you're town. What are you trying to say, exactly? 3. Actually, rereading the drazak exchange you called him "terrible townie", so I guess calling Darth townie this game isn't completely against your town meta like I first thought. I knew engaging in the topic of Kush's meta would result in a headache. If anyone else want to take a look at his townie play in XXVI this is his filter and those are the two most significant posts wrt Drazak's attack. I find them more logically reasoned and less inflammatory than his scum meta and what he's showing in this game: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2012 13:25 kushm4sta wrote: I pushed the cubu vote because 1)he was a bad poster/lurker and it worked as a policy lynch if nothing else 2)how he turned revealed a lot about thrawn, who i assumed medic or jb would save because he was the obvious choice in my mind I thought it was very fishy that thrawn tried to redirect twice, and so I got very excited with the prospect of identifying two mafia in the first day. Also at the time I thought, as did thrawn, that kville was going to be replaced. So that's why I called him the worst townie. Now it's clear that honor belongs to kville. Also jacob I don't get how this is a good argument? It's reasoning is only one sentence: I think he means that then thrawn would be mafia, but right now that sentence, which is his ONLY argumentation, makes no sense. I didn't think anyone else seemed more scumlike than he did. Although I did know that was a big chance of him not being scum. See, drazzy darling, when there are a ton of lurkers/terrible townies in the game like yourself, it makes it pretty fucking hard to win as town. And my last defense of myself is to invoke the holy name of the late thrawn, who, on the night of his untimely death, proclaimed me as his biggest town read. Read his defense of me because I'm sure it's better than anything I could do. REST IN PEACE THRAWN TT Not to OMGUS, but this actually makes drazak seem quite suspicious to me. Mostly because I am the most active poster now that thrawn is gone. Maybe I'm biased about the matter but what do other people think? I will look through his filter more tomorrow. On September 06 2012 00:36 kushm4sta wrote: A girl told me she likes my glasses.. that means she wants to fuck me right? ANYWAY @drazak I was scumhunting, I just didn't have a great idea of who was scum day 1, as no one did. I thought cubu looked more like mafia than anyone else. Scumhunting doesn't' mean figuring out 100% who is mafia, that is impossible. Thrawn calling me town doesn't make me town--this is true. But thrawn is a confirmed innocent so at least we know that all his motivations were pro town and his beliefs genuine. Drazak I agree the town doesn't need a leader, but I think we do need to be focused. And what I mean by that is we should not all be analyzing different people. That is what mafia wants because it makes it easy for mafia to hide amidst that confusion and not to take a stance on people he doesn't want to take a stance on. You ask me who my best scum reads are atm. I will comply. As of now it's xatalos, for reasons already posted. I still want to analyze your filter more, drazak, but I will say that accusing me out of the blue, since for many I am a strong town read, was not really a safe move, and that gives you town points...minor town points though, because you may have thought that cubu flipping green justified your suspicion. Other people I am suspicious of is stutters, since he has been absent for quite a while now.. I really want to see what he is going to post today before I make a judgement on him. I will post more substantially later. PS I really don't want to lynch kville in light of his most recent post and just thinking about it more. He deserves the lynch maybe because his play was just really bad and anti town but I don't want to waste it on him. Also I think it is mostly a waste of time to discuss him, since there is not much to talk about or analyze in his posts. I still think he's the most suspicious player in this game for reasons stated, so for now my vote stands. | ||
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On September 29 2012 06:33 kushm4sta wrote: sdm you make no sense. I tried hard not to make scumslips last game. this game I did not. because I am not scum. I don't know if any of you guys have had this experience but when everyone wants to lynch you and you are definitely going to get lynxhed, it just feels like why am I going to waste my time writing cases and making arguments for this shitty town. that's gonna kill me anyway. I'm actually starting to hope I get lynched to teach town a lesson.. all scums put your votes right here. easiest d1 ever I hope you guys win. Pointing out another scum slip at this point seems kind of redundant, but anyway, what the fuck? We're only like 24h into the game and you've got only 2 votes. Why would you give up at this point? You're being so anti-town it'll be hard for anyone not to vote on you, but if you shape up there's still a lot of time. Anyway, really need to get some sleep now. I'm out. | ||
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On September 29 2012 06:44 Z-BosoN wrote: How is that a scumslip? Also, you chose to stick with "I think kush has a better case" while not even mentioning the shitbomb I've thrown against debears. Care to shed a comparative light and tell us why you think a meta based lynch is better than a inconsistent scumhunting-based one? I don't get how you look at the case made against Kush and think it's just meta based. There's meta + 2 significant scum slips + whatever you want to call his blatant anti-town posts. My initial problem with with case against was that in every single post of yours you were pushing the fact that he defended my introductory post: + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 14:26 Z-BosoN wrote: @debear Have you ever heard about instigating discussion? You know, getting people to talk? I don't like how you defended SDM. You stated your views on lurkers, so that means you must agree that this type of discussion has some validity: Yet, you don't address SDM's blatant "I don't give a crap about policy lynch discussion's" stance? Seems rather odd to me. ##FoS debears On September 28 2012 15:36 Z-BosoN wrote: I don't care who you've played with. You make it a point to say your view on lurkers. You defend him for absolutely no reason, when his views implicitly contradict yours. If you were townie, I wouldn't think this to be a priority for you. I am not focused on lurker discussion, I am focused on the inconsistency you've presented. The issue of "Lurker policy" is not what is at hand. The issue at hand is why you are bothering to defend him (and now kush) instead of letting them defend themselves. It feels extremely forced right now, as townies are supposedly scouring the thread for blood. That's why the FOS. Regarding your "case", it seems to me like the only think you've got going is my general usefulness. And I already said it in form of a question, but now I'll answer it more bluntly so you can't dismiss it: I am instigating discussion. Read all my posts and see if that's what I'm trying to accomplish. On September 28 2012 23:10 Z-BosoN wrote: No, I "essentially" said that In my opinion it made more sense for him to attack SDM rather than to defend him. I also said that his defense felt very "forced" and unnecessary as a townie. You can agree and you can not agree, but saying I told him to "shut up" and am discouraging conversation is indeed a stretch. What the fuck? I bashed it because I wanted him to respond to it, and I did not like his post. Again, you are stretching. He gave off the feeling that he loathed lurker policy discussion, and stated implicitly that people shouldn't lurk. I agree with both of these statements, but I don't like the way he said it (i.e. "fuck lurker policy, I hate it so much that I'll be gone for the next 15 hours"), and thus I questioned him for it. I didn't make a case, I didn't even make a FOS. I don't know why people are bitching so much about an attack against someone who said that he has to "go to the university". The underlined part is a bunch of crap. The "contradiction" you spotted is completely far-fetched, basing itself on the fact that I wanted debear to shut up, which as I've explained above is also a stretch. If your case against me is what you call "real analysis", then I could have the time of my life making cases, as I can just twist everything people say and use it as arguments for a case. On September 29 2012 02:25 Z-BosoN wrote: @Alsn I already answered that. You are bieng dense. @debears I missed that second post, though it further strengthens my case against you. You do not find it odd that he dismisses lurker policy talk and then, explicitly tells us his views on lurkers, thus indulging in this talk? And yet you find that post as a defense for him? Sorry, my scummy friend, but observe how my post drew you and Alsn out in discussion. I still eagerly await his answer, but it certainly was not worthless. You are bitching about a question I asked SDM. I didn't file a case on him, I didn't FoS him, I questioned him. I did NOT call him out for lurking. YOU fail to read, and now you are waaaaaaay too defensive about a question that didn't even concern you. Alsn presented the same defensiveness, but not on the same level as you and on a way that is much more townie-looking than yours. Also, the "irony" you've presented is without merit. I agree that the reasoning for my questioning of SDM is a bit far-fetched, but I absolutely did not use it as an argument as to why he is scummy. Don't get the facts distorted. The only FoS I have so far is on you. On September 29 2012 03:46 Z-BosoN wrote: debears, my case against you is not OMGUS. That's a dumb thing to say, granted I've explained to you why I find you scummy. I didn't call stutters out for lurking. I talked to him because I've played with him before, and conveyed my will that he should post more than he did in XXIV, because he makes decent posts, or at least made them in XXIV, as a townie. It's more of an "acknowledgement" towards someone I've already played with. I didn't call him out for being afk. I attacked SDM because of HOW he said he would be afk, as if he was blatantly avoiding posting because of his hate on lurker policy talking. AS IF. Which is why I've questioned him. I'm also being very clear here. I'm not pushing a case against SDM. I'm pushing a case against you, again, because I didn't find your reaction towards SDM natural at all. Answering SDM shortly. His flip-flopping on Kush and Djo basically gets no mention at all. At the point of your FOS, inconcistency #2 hadn't even happened. What you're presenting now is different and looking past your weird "mod warning case" it holds a lot more merit. I think the case needs to be trimmed down to the essentials. Right now it's all over the place, a lot of points are just repeated and some arguments I don't get at all. Anyway, what I find weird about Debears' explanations: 1. Debears says he doesn't want a one-sided Kush lynch, yet he's the one putting in the 4th vote, putting him way ahead of anyone else. Debears, if you were concerned about a one-sided d1, why so quick on switching? The obvious scum motivation would be protect Kush while keeping his back free (at this point it really looks like Kush is flipping red). He doesn't push the case until the lynch is inevitable, then he quickly jumps the wagon. The potential town motivation is more unclear. 2. The second is Debears' explanation of the Marv scum slip. He says he thought Djo should contact "the coaches", but it's clear the coach he suggested was Marv. That's not changed by the fact that he's: On September 29 2012 01:55 debears wrote: Please pm marv for help. The coaches are great In my mind these are good reasons to be suspicious of Debears. We most certainly need to push for more information from other players as well though. If XXVII thaught me anything it was that I have a tendency to get way overconfident in my reads. | ||
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On September 30 2012 05:16 corrosion wrote: I considered the possibility of both being scum early on but if both were scum, I see no reason whatsoever for Kush's scumslip. So I'm now saying that Darth is close to being confirmed town. This is something town should keep in mind during N1 and D2. It would be a spectacular bus if they did this on purpose. The only reason I can see for doing that, would be if Kush had slipped earlier in the thread. I do not think so but if someone wants to look into it, go ahead. I'm not going to spend my time on that. Yeah, Darth is basically confirmed town as far as I'm concered. I'm not even sure what you're saying here (bolded). Care to explain? I agree looking into the more lurky players is a good idea. I've gone through their filters and there are a couple of scummy things that pop out. My problem is most of those scummy thigs could be explained by simply being newbie play and at this point hesistant making a case out of it. I still urge all of you to up your posting, because at this point I'm having a hard time differentiating scummy newbie town and scummy newbie scum. I can see why the amount of posts today has been low after Kush's blow up, but we can't afford it to remain low. Anyway, it's getting late again. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 13:17 Djodref wrote: Hey, guys ! I would like to bring up something that struck me in the post of corrosion about Darth. I didn't like this post in general because it didn't match my interpretations of the early events between Kush and Darth but I understand that our views can differ. But looking back at corrosion filter, he's trying to find scummy motivation for Darth to give his links to his previous game. Check the bolded part in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote: I'm just going to address the "fight" between Darth and Kush. I'm going to focus on Darth for now. Looking more closely into Kush's contribution is something I think should be done well ahead of lynch time. I'm actually going to start by telling about some thoughts I had after reading my role PM. I was trying to figure out what players town should be focusing on. I had obsed NMMXXVII, and came to the conclusion that it might be reasonable to go after any player except Kush. I figured that Kush was going to make a lot of posts anyway, so I was thinking that we could get a good analysis of him without any early pressure. One of the first things Darth did was to antagonize Kush: + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote: No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. I'm thinking that this could easily be an attempt to start a fight that would result in derailing the thread. Kush responded the way I expected him to, and these two posters exchanged arguments back and forth. In the middle of this, Darth made a remark against lurkers, but quickly changed his focus back on Kush. I don't see why he should make this comment at this time, since it wasn't going to get looked at while there was a fight going on. Shortly afterwards, Kush makes his supposed scum slip. Darth jumps on it, and shortly afterwards he posts about his previous mafia games. I've watched the game where he played cop, and seen that he and Shady argued a lot on D1. So I was thinking that this seems to be Darth's town meta. But I also asked myself why he did post about his previous games at this point in time. Maybe this was all intentional. Suppose he suddenly remembered that game. He might not have wanted people to look at those games earlier, but now he realized that if he posted them he would be able to establish a town read on himself. I'm not sure if this is a strong case against Darth at the moment. I would like some input from the more experienced players here. If Kush hadn't made that slip, I think the derailing argument would have looked strong. Now it doesn't look so strong, because we've actually gotten new information. I'm not saying that I'm sure the scum slip is an actual slip, but if it is and it results in a succesful lynch, I think town got very lucky. Scum usually wouldn't slip in such an obvious manner. His cases against Debears and Alsn are something that might reveal useful information, but I've not studied them closely yet. I still think that Kush seems more suspicious when everything is taken into consideration but with all the focus that has been on him, I'm sure someone else can post a decent case on him before we need to consider our first lynch. But Darth was just answering a request from debears ! + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 11:39 debears wrote: As I said, I want a quick look at you first. Second, there isn't much more to add to what you said about it. It does give off the impression of extra information. I think corrosion was trying to cast scummy shadow on Darth to shift the focus on Kush. I did so by omitting/deforming some parts of the thread history. Also, he fits my definition of a semi-lurker trying to blend in. So, corrosion, until I got your explanations about this point, I got my eyes on you. ##FoS: corrosion Here he brings up a point that had been brought up by Darth already, basically adding nothing on your own. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 16:19 Djodref wrote: Also I don't understand you stances on my alignment. After your first case on me, I thought you were suspicious of me. Later on, you recommend me to pm marv for help. You certainly know that marv is the town coach. So did you just let go your suspicions and consider me as town newbie ? Your town motivation would be to help a fellow citizen but in this case why do you think I'm town ? Your mafia motivation would be budding me and show pro-town behavior (unfortunately while slipping). And I would like you to answer my questions clearly in the future and not throwing me a question back. Again, this is a completely ripping off an earlier argument by Boson, adding nothing new. Aside from those two attempts, he's keeping his post count relatively high while not posting anything of value. So yeah, I've encouraged newbies to post, but this is exactly what I call posting for the sake of posting. Adding nothing new and just getting along, and that's scummy. Further... On September 30 2012 06:52 Djodref wrote: @Alsn I understand why I'm on your null read list so far but I'd like to point out something to you and everybody. Here is the post where Kush has made his scumslip. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote: should not have looked at thread again now I have to respond... @debears yeah it's like exactly the same as last game. That's because I think up my first post almost word for word before I even get my roll pm. I did not get to follow through with it last game though since I rolled scum. Also sorry for the semiflame war. It was not that bad. Also he started it. Aside from that, I think the plan to start tunneling during the second half of the day is really bad. It helped us a lot last game as scum because we had an excuse not to vote for the people we were fosing. Because the most active townie is tunneling me? Obviously I'm not going to be nk. And yes it was a joke but the best jokes have truth to them. It is a joke in that it's purpose was to be funny since obviously it doesn't help the scumhunt or my defense. I'm actually proud of this one because he did it while answering one of my questions ^^ I think I deserve some town credit for that one even if I did buy kush's explanations about this slip later on. This is not the first time you're trying to give yourself townie points for asking a question to Kush. Last time it was more thinly veiled but it still caught my attention: On September 28 2012 15:00 Djodref wrote: Nevertheless, Kush slipped by answering my question about the NK. Asking Kush the question doesn't give you townie points. The thing with a scum slip is that it's obviously something which happens unintentionally, so if you were both scum it obviously wasn't planned anyway (or at least highly unlikely to have been). To be fair he did at least engage in the discussion, which can be seen as scum hunting, but not until Darth had aggresively called out Kush. What follows is this: On September 28 2012 13:27 Djodref wrote: It's a little illogical because you are saying that he looks scummy as town or as scum and yet you are able to make the difference between and scummy town Kush and a scummy scum Kush. I also read through the last Newbie Mini Mafia games and I must agree he didn't mention night kills so much when he was town iirc. I'm looking forward his explanations about his town read on you and I hope more people can give their opinion about your case on Kush. As I was also reading the game where you were mafia roleblocker and I saw your ability to flame with Shiaopi, I'm not buying it yet. Casting doubts on Darth's suspicion, downplaying it as a flame war. Even if Darth would be able to flame Kush as scum (he probably would), it's not the focus here, there are actually good arguments supporting the accusations. On September 28 2012 15:00 Djodref wrote: @Everyone I'm going to take a stance on Kush when he explains why he thinks Darth to be town. Here he is keeping his options open, which is a convenient strategy in a pressured situation. Then actually buying into Kush's silly explanation: On September 28 2012 21:18 Djodref wrote: Also I'm accepting Kush explanation for calling Darth a townie but it would be better for him to refrain calling someone a townie or a scum without explanations later on... Finally jumping the wagon with weak reasoning (later claiming my post helped pursaude him): On September 29 2012 12:53 Djodref wrote: I did accept his explanation at the time but I cannot let him off the hook for the posts where he said he didn't care about this game anymore. Also I really don't like the posts where he implies that debears is his scum partner. I don't see any pro-town motivation for such posts. That's why he's getting my vote now. ##Vote: kushm4sta Also a side note for the guys having trouble with my pseudo, you can call me Djo if you want  I realize this can be the result of him being a total newbie, but his posts are really unconvincing and worthy of suspicion. ##FOS: Djodref | ||
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On September 30 2012 17:13 Z-BosoN wrote: So I woke up a couple of hours earlier than I should have. Instead of going back to sleep, I decide to go read some filters. Sometimes I hate this game rofl. Anyways, I will agree with one thing DP said, alsn is scummy as shit. Look at his stance on kush throughout the thread. Brief timeline here: ACT I - Kush. If you are scummy like last game, I will lynch you no matter what. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote: Hey everyone, just woke up and was about to check when the game was supposed to start. Imagine my surprise when it's already started! Although looking closely the game started as I went to sleep, so I wouldn't have been able to participate until now either way. So in any case, I'm Alsn, I like logic. My previous mafia games so far amount to a single one, a game where I was NKd N1 as Vanilla Townie. My filter for that game can be found here. Other than that I have only ever played SC2 Mafia in any significant amounts(a game while using the same core rules, plays extremely different due to the time constraints and limits on discussion). If you are interested, I was also active in the /obs QT discussion of NMMXXVII which can be found here. So, with that out of the way, I read the first few posts and saw that this game continues the trend of lurker policy lynching. I agree that there needs to be pressure on scum to actually post, since without scum posts to analyse all the scumhunting in the world will almost certainly only turn up townies(due to lurkers generally being null reads). That said, I followed Tl Mafia LVII wherein there was a lot of discussion about lynching "trolly meta" players and I would like to take that one step further. Kush, while I realize that you have a posting style which by its nature is very confrontational and inflammatory, I feel that unless you actually provide some concrete analysis without using almost purely OMGUS argumentation that it is in town's best interest to just straight up lynch you right away. Simply put, unless your cases actually provide substance then I think you will just be a late game liability for town, mostly giving everyone a null read and potentially forcing people to make a town or scum read on you without having much of an idea what you are. So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content, just like I will not forgive anyone else for doing so either. Understand that I'm not singling you out as a target, I'm using your history as an example for what I consider scummy play. Now, on to actually read the thread and see if I can respond to something. ACT II - It is as we feared. Kush has defiled us all. FOS Kush + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. In fact, I could go back to my initial posts to him in NMMXXV saying almost the exact same thing. As such, I think I have no choice but to cast a: FoS kushm4sta kush, in order for me to let up, I want you to stop it with your ridiculous knee-jerk play and actually point out why you think other people are scummy as opposed to why you yourself is so obviously town. While the following idiom is quite ironic in a forum game, actions speak louder than words and you defending yourself is just that, meaningless words. Start proving to everyone that you are concerned with finding scum instead of worrying about your silly streak. That being said, I think everyone else is jumping the gun here, kush is an extremely easy target to pick on, especially since he almost never seems to think before he posts. The scumslip that Darth and others pointed out can definitely be seen as damning. However, I am not inclined to agree with the following post from Darth: This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. I can state for the record that unless kush shapes up considerably, I'm all in favour of lynching him. Simply because him playing like his normal self would be a liability for town later on due to his inclination to just defend himself over hunting scum. However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. ACT III - DarthPunk, you are going overboard on kush. I find you using ridiculous logic. How are you so sure of this and that? Hm.... I'll go with you being townie, ya know, for throwing yourself out there. + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 22:03 Alsn wrote: Astonishing how? I would like you to explain what's so amazingly pro-town about tunneling kush from the very beginning. I find the risks of that approach to be very high from a town perspective. There are two scenarios: A) He flips green, and unless he during the day completely changed his character we will have almost no way of distinguishing who among the people who pushed for his lynch were scum and who were town. B) He flips scum, at this point I just don't find that likely enough to risk A) happening. That fact alone is enough for me to see that post of debears as entirely reasonable, since both of you at the time were basically calling out kush for every single post he was making(for good reason, but not if that's the only thing you are doing). + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote: Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Given that there are no other developments then sure, I'll admit that there's at least a higher chance of kush being scum than a random lurker being scum. But I would really like it if we could at least try to get better odds than that. Best case scenario for me would be actually having everyone talk, present cases and opinions and if no one else presents themselves as scummy, then and only then will I roll the dice on kush. Remember, there are 3 scum, not only one. Who knows, if he's scum as you say, he might look even scummier by lynch time. The case being what it is with kush, I can see now that what you were doing wasn't tunneling per se. However, I think you are doing the very thing you are accusing me of doing where you say debears was trying to "shut down" the case against kush. Like I've said several times now, that's not at all how I interpreted it, only that we shouldn't limit ourselves to a single discussion topic which at the time I felt debears was trying to suggest. Something that I happen to agree with. This statement makes little sense to me. You say you were not tunneling, which I can now appreciate as probably true, but up until recently was not clear at all to me(and probably not to anyone else either). You had made quite a lot of posts in a row with kush as the only topic, as well as trying to convince others in the thread that he absolutely, 100%, no doubt whatsoever must be scum. I didn't find it unreasonable that someone would point that fact out to you. My "premise" was simply that if I find an argument reasonable, someone else trying to poke holes in that argument might not have the same motivations as myself, thus they are suspicious. The bolded line is ridiculous however, especially in context with the sentence before it. What makes you so sure that we would have "a lot of info to go off" in the case of everyone tunneling kush and us lynching him? My A) vs. B) scenario that you are referring to was dependent on the hypothetical scenario of everyone tunneling kush(which I already explained seemed to be where things were going at the time). I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you misunderstood what I was trying to say instead of deliberately using a red herring to try and discredit me. With that in mind, based on your willingness to put yourself out there, I have a slight town read on you. INTERLUDE --- kush goes ape shit. Ravages town with his treachery. Denies every chance he has to be saved, and wails incessantly. The ACT I prophecy was correct. However... ACT IV - It is as I feared. Everyone is voting for kush with little discussion. I dislike this lynch. I'm ok with lynching kush, but I wanna lynch my biggest scum read. You know, the one I don't have. Also, I think that scum wouldn't just go ahead and bus. You know, they would probably most likely trying to find another solution other than bussing. You know, like the thing I'm trying to do right now. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 18:17 Alsn wrote: First, I'd like to start things with stating so far D1 has pretty much lived up to my exact nightmare scenario that I speculated about when arguing with DP yesterday. Everyone is voting kush with only very little discussion about any other topic(mainly, the debears-boson exchange). Looking at the vote count, the last official count says 7, and now corrosion added his vote for a total of 8. With myself that would be 9, the exact number of town in this game. From my point of view, unless kushm4sta, Djodref and Lesrah are the 3 scum, there are scum pushing this lynch. Given that, I'm really starting to dislike this lynch. I agree however that kush has been mostly concerned with defending himself against perceived injustice rather than actually trying to hunt scum, this still does not convince me that he is scum. Lynching scum with an overwhelming majority D1 just seems like way too improbably. Sure, if we had to fight tooth and nail to get 7 votes, I might buy it, but that's not the case. It seems to me there must be scum sheeping onto this lynch. Like I've stated before I can go along with the kush lynch, but I'd rather try and lynch my top scum read at this point and with the current developments, I see a kush lynch more as a last resort than my main scum read. Unfortunately, this argument is only available to people who have yet to vote and are town, as well as to scum since other than myself only scum are aware of my alignment. For everyone else, the "unless a, b and c are scum" argument will include me. My argument is at least enough to convince myself, so I'll be scouring the thread for the next couple of hours to see if my "gut scum reads" so far have any merit and if so push that/those case(s) instead. If it turns out that they are going nowhere, I will vote kush. But I still feel we have enough time to at least have a discussion on the topic of "just wtf is going on here?!". On September 29 2012 18:28 Alsn wrote: A quick addendum, I'm aware that scum pushing the lynch does not exonerate kush since they could be bussing him. However, given the assumption that kush is scum and there are active scum among the voters, I just find it more likely that they would try and find another solution than bussing, especially since it's D1. That's my main reason for not being convinced that kush is scum. ACT V - The resolve. I've had a vision. It is inevitable, kush must be lynched. I have realized the errors of my ways and it is imperative that kush is lynched. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:15 Alsn wrote: I've been doing some soul searching and I'm starting to agree that it's not worth it to try and push any other cases right now. Mostly because my entire premise was that I was thinking it to be unlikely for kush to be scum. I realise that after trying to put into words why I think that is so, I have nothing other than the fact that I "feel" him to be town, which is a really stupid reason for absolving him. I thought I could back it up by saying he's been pressured to hard, there's no way he's responsible for not scum hunting. But in the end, I can't find a logical reason to forgive him if I exclude my own gut feeling from the equation. I think now that my best option is to hold on to whatever small reads I have(because while I have some suspicions, I don't think they are rock solid) until after the lynch is over. Because at least then, we will have more information. So for now, although my gut is screaming at me, I'll commit to voting for kush, mostly because most of what I said about BosoN has returned somewhat satisfactory answers, I really don't like the way a lot of people got away with not basically posting anything at all(I'm looking at you, Djodref, corrosion, Omniscient, RemedySC). I think that's probably what irks me the most, the thing I was most hoping would not happen, did happen. ##Vote: kushm4sta sup scum? anyone? I got a lot of thoughts on this case, but as I'm typing them out I realize I'd rather have Alsn respond in detail first. I'll just say I'm not convinced atm. | ||
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Sweden991 Posts
1. Latching on to others reads: As newbie scum it's really hard to make original cases. I had first hand experience Cubu and Imcasey in XXVI. The only case Imcasey could make was against our scum buddy Xatalos (that's quite easy because he knew he was scum). We had a similar situation with Debears in XXVII, at least in the beginning where the only case he could make was a defense of Thrawn, which is easy to do because he knew knew he was town (well, he flipped SK, but Debears couldn't know). 2. How can anyone buy into Kush's defense that easily? A newbie town is usually very suspcicious and it was a really silly defense, at the very best null. Using "player" and "people" sounds awkward? How isn't that an obvious lie? + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: 2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro. As for the other lurkers, I don't find Remedy suspicious, rather the opposite although his post count is still low. Nothing really stuck out to me the same way Djo did when reading Omn's and Corrosion's filter. | ||
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About the case. Like I said, I'd rather have Alsn respond first. | ||
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On September 30 2012 22:08 Alsn wrote: I'm back, just read through the last couple of posts. I don't see the benefit of me just continually defending myself, I've conceded that with the way I misread some posts my posts come off as quite scummy, since the only explanation I have is that my arguments contradicted obvious truths which unfortunately was unbeknownst to me at the time, thus leading me to suspect people for faulty reasons. If you absolutely want me to respond in more detail I will, but I don't see the town benefit in me spending a bunch of time explaining my reasons for my posting so far, since anything I say at this point could just be seen as scum excuses. I made some mistakes in my reasoning, chiefly overreacting to Darth pressuring me, but also probably overestimated how scummy Z-BosoN's early comments were. If anything, I'd rather be held responsible if I don't actually shape up from now on. Alright. Well I think there are some good arguments made against you, but some I find weak. At least that was my initial reaction to the case. I will have to think about the case some more to make sense of it all, but in any case I don't see any reason to give you potential easy outs. Right now I'm most suspicious of Djo and Debears. | ||
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On my first read through of the thread, I found Alsn being generally suspicious of everything (overall a town trait) and he had been fucking up with regards to some of the information (perhaps not what I'd expect of Alsn given what I've seen of him before, but I don't find it too weird). Alsn was pretty much a null read to me. Anyway, I went back to look at Alsn's filter. In his first post, which happens around 11 hours after the start of the game, he makes a long ass post about his thoughts on Kush. This in itself might be suspicious to some people, but having played with Kush in XXVI and XXVII he was probably the one player I was thinking the most about who to handle pre-game so I don't find it too weird. In his next post, one hour later, he has read up on the thread and recognizes that Kush has been playing like he Alsn had been afraid he would. He FOS Kush but says he's not convinced. Anyway, when I said I wasn't convinced of the case, I had messed up the timeline of events. I thought Alsn's posts indirectly defending Kush happened not long before Kush completely blew up. If that was the case, I would've found it weird for Kush to blow up soon after his scum buddy showed him support. It seems now that Kush blew up at a later stage when Alsn wasn't around the thread, so that nullifies the argument I thought I had against the case. I felt it was best to put it out there because if I happen to get killed off I don't want to leave with the impression I had some well thought out objection to the Alsn case. I still need to finish reading Alsn's filter and look at the case again, but I won't have time to do it until tomorrow. | ||
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On October 01 2012 05:56 Omniscient4983 wrote: Thoughts on night actions: I'm guessing scum targeted Darth, and the medic saved him. He was the obvious candidate for NK, but the mafia tried to kill him anyway despite there being a high chance that a medic would be on him. This means that scum is desperate to get Darth out of the game. Why? Not only was he correct about Kush, but he gave his 3 top scum reads during the night in this order: Debears Djodref Alsn From my perspective: since scum targeted Darth, one of his three reads has a high likelihood of being correct. If he was headed in the wrong direction with these reads, scum would have taken out someone else and let him lead us astray. Attempting to NK Darth was a huge risk, but I believe it's one scum had to take because he was so on track, and having him alive would spell their doom in the end. What does everyone else think? I’ve never liked the early day WIFOM speculating. Like this reasoning, thinking the failed NK might incriminate Djo, Alsn and/or Debears. Even if it was a valid argument (it’s really not) it doesn’t help us at all. It can easily turn into a one way ticket to slipville for blue roles though. The blues seems to be doing just fine so I think we should keep this to a minimum. | ||
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On October 01 2012 21:46 Alsn wrote: Yes, please do. Especially the QT. Just ask SDM how brilliant I was in that /obs, we were all over the place in that QT. We kept making wild accusations left, right and center and they were mostly wrong. Not until day three or something did we have the slightest clue who to suspect, and then partly due to the fact that keirathi had quoted marv and spoiled it for us. This just makes me feel like he wants to suck up to me in order to make me drop my suspicions. I will not be held accountable for the insanity this cluster fuck might cause to its readers, but the obs qt is here. The inaccuracy of his reads was quite astounding iirc, but I still think he did better than me  | ||
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I’m feeling a bit uneasy going for a Djo lynch and for now I’m leaning towards Alsn or Debears being the better candidates. Both have been posting a metric shit ton lately so I've got my hands full going through everything. I’m looking to complete that half-finished thought I threw out on Alsn yesterday and have a better idea of which lynch I’m liking later today. | ||
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On October 01 2012 02:36 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I tried to collect my thoughts regarding the Alsn case and I realized when I first commented my perception of the timeline of events was off. On my first read through of the thread, I found Alsn being generally suspicious of everything (overall a town trait) and he had been fucking up with regards to some of the information (perhaps not what I'd expect of Alsn given what I've seen of him before, but I don't find it too weird). Alsn was pretty much a null read to me. Anyway, I went back to look at Alsn's filter. In his first post, which happens around 11 hours after the start of the game, he makes a long ass post about his thoughts on Kush. This in itself might be suspicious to some people, but having played with Kush in XXVI and XXVII he was probably the one player I was thinking the most about who to handle pre-game so I don't find it too weird. In his next post, one hour later, he has read up on the thread and recognizes that Kush has been playing like he Alsn had been afraid he would. He FOS Kush but says he's not convinced. Anyway, when I said I wasn't convinced of the case, I had messed up the timeline of events. I thought Alsn's posts indirectly defending Kush happened not long before Kush completely blew up. If that was the case, I would've found it weird for Kush to blow up soon after his scum buddy showed him support. It seems now that Kush blew up at a later stage when Alsn wasn't around the thread, so that nullifies the argument I thought I had against the case. I felt it was best to put it out there because if I happen to get killed off I don't want to leave with the impression I had some well thought out objection to the Alsn case. I still need to finish reading Alsn's filter and look at the case again, but I won't have time to do it until tomorrow. So yeah, not only did this turn out not to be an argument in favor of Alsn, but the timings makes sense for him being scum. Kush’s posts are actually most reasonable when Alsn is around and he later blows up after Alsn leaves with this post: + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 03:50 Alsn wrote: Would just like to say that I'm going to bed a little early today. Will be up in the morning(~12-14 hours before lynch) and making some posts and then on and off until lynch but without major "leaves of absence". Here's hoping that no one is still lurking when I wake up. This in itself isn’t necessarily incriminating but worth noting. Anyway, I’ll focus more on your reasoning for defending Kush. I don’t think it’s been fully covered and reading your filter this is something that doesn’t make sense to me. Intro: + Show Spoiler + When Alsn makes his first post Kush is taking heat from Darth. The Kush case hadn’t really been built yet, but the information is there. This is something Alsn acknowledges in his second post. On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: Wow, upon reading the thread I realise that kush has been following the exact pattern I just now specified to be the way not to play if he wanted to absolve himself in my eyes. The OMGUS, the aggression, the flaming, the scum slip. Despite this, he’s going back on what he just said in his first post: On September 28 2012 16:54 Alsn wrote: So to sum up, kush, I can definitely forgive you for your "style" of posting but I will not under any circumstance forgive you for posting shitty content And instead posts: On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: However, I definitely want to give him the benefit of the doubt and allow him to actually try and show that he has town's best interest in mind. So until then, while I definitely would like everyone to share their reads on kush so far, that is not enough for D1. We need to start exploring different possibilities because if we decide to lynch kush and he flips green, spending all of D1 talking about him will put us back at square one minus two townies. I'll make another post within an hour or two on another topic as I think I've made myself perfectly clear on where I stand on kush, but right now I need breakfast. So he leaves saying he’s undecided on Kush, trying to steer the discussion in a different direction and if not, him having an easier bus decision (again, not incriminating in itself, but not my main point). Your main arguments for defending Kush is 1) his meta supporting his play and 2) the scum slip not being severe. To me that’s a really weird conclusion to make. On September 29 2012 00:24 Alsn wrote: Given the evidence so far no, I don't, and frankly I don't see why that's so hard to believe. Given his history, it should be easy to see for anyone that while he has different town and scum metas(as pointed out by Hapahauli in the obs QT of NMMXVII), his comments so far this game is entirely in line with the way he usually posts during D1. Basically just writing up whatever is on his mind. That to me doesn't really increase or decrease the chances of him flipping either way(but the setup of the game says all else being equal, 75% of the players are green, 25% are scum) Yes, you called him out for good reason because his arguments(like so many times before this game) make little to no sense. But right now the only thing I really agree actually points to him being scum is what you call his scum slip. I just do not agree with you of just how damning that statement is. The first thing that sprang to mind when I saw you quoting that was simply that townie was an odd word to use, why not use player? But a confirmed scum slip? Come on, it's not like he said something that is entirely outside the realm of possibility for a town player to say. "Townie" wouldn't be the word I'd use, but I just can't see it as that obvious a scum slip. I'll accept that you are not necessarily wrong for thinking so however. Meta: I’m curious about this post because I disagree. I made a post later regarding how I think it didn’t match his town meta, a post you didn’t reply to (basically I think he has shown to be more aggressive, inflammatory and posted more pure crap as scum). On September 28 2012 17:56 Alsn wrote: This last part seems to overly simplify the matter to me. The only reason? I myself can see a few reasons, but I would like kush to reply himself before I comment further as I don't want to give him an easy out. Scum slip: Now that Kush is lynched, could you explain what those easy outs you thought of were? I’m really not seeing what easy outs you'd see for Kush straight up calling his attacker townie. Not only do I find your reasons for defending Kush weird, but to me they seem contradictory. Particularly when you claim that he is “basically just writing up whatever is on his mind” (which I think is true to a certain extent). If that’s your meta read on Kush, it would make all sense in the world that the scum slip is an actual scum slip. Typing what’s on your mind is exactly what results in a scum slip like that. So you’re using his meta to make null read on Kush's aggressive and nonsensical posts (which I disagree with) and you downplay his scum slip although it contradicts your meta read. To me this seems like slips in logic in made in order to defend Kush, a defense I now realize is both direct and indirect. | ||
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##Vote: Alsn | ||
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On October 02 2012 03:08 Omniscient4983 wrote: @RemedySC Debears without a doubt. Djodref I see as leaning town and Alsn is still pretty null / slightly scum for me, even after previewing some cases against him. I was suspicious of Debears ever since I questioned his claiming Djodref as town. I find that he has a ton of posts throughout the thread, many that are long cases against various people. At the beginning of night 1, I thought we should move away from him to pursue other cases; however, since that time, I think a lot of his posts are attempting to deflect attention away from him and at other people. It isn't that these posts are void of content, it is that they seem extensive and overbearing as if to crowd the thread with information that isn't anti-debears. As for my vote: ##Vote Debears I get really paranoid when people jump the Debears wagon with this kind of reasoning. He's making too many long many cases? Really, that's what confirms your suspicion? | ||
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On October 02 2012 05:10 Omniscient4983 wrote: I'm not jumping the wagon--I've always thought Debears would be a candidate for lynch. There are many points against him, including the association / defense of Kush, townie reference, meta-based arguments, etc... the only thing as of late that erks me is all the different cases. It seems as if he's diverting attention / spreading chaos to make the case against him seem insignificant as compared to those of others. Z-BosoN made an extensive case against him--reference it if you'd like. The long cases don't so much confirm the suspicion as they do add to it. Ok, so the potential scum slip was what you were referencing when you said Debears confirmed Djo town, I was going to ask about that. Anyway, if Debears is town, how do you think he would react to the accusations? How do you think he should react? Trying to build cases against players he find suspicouis seems like a good and pro-town idea. Convincing us that other players are more suspicious than him is equally a town motivation as it is scum. What do you think about the Alsn case? | ||
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On October 02 2012 05:56 RemedySC wrote: @SDM I'll give my thoughts on your case. It is very compelling. The timings are iffy, but that could make perfect sense as to why Kush acted how he did. I was kind of thinking that earlier, if his team was inactive (Lesrah + a lurker) he would be on his own and broke under the pressure. Your point makes better sense though me thinks. I'm not sure my point necessarily makes more sense. I've been thinking about what you're saying and the problem is it kind of leaves with nothing, at least at the moment. Anyway, that wasn't the main thing I found suspicious, it just fits in whereas earlier I thought it didn't. I still need to look closer into the Debears' filter myself. Going through Alsn's filter was like banging you head into a wall of bricks so that's been my main focus so far. This obviously means I've still not decided. | ||
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On October 02 2012 18:10 DarthPunk wrote: Also. We need to consolidate on Either Alsn or Debears. I am happy with either. Would mildly prefer a debears lynch. But I think both are scummy as shit. So. Who are we going to Consolidate onto? Z- Boson? SDM? thoughts? I'm leaning Alsn and I'm hoping to have time to explain why with a good amount of time to the lynch. I agree about the consolidating, but I don't think we're in a hurry. With an early concensus it's easier for scum to blend in, whereas if we wait they'll potentially face the pressure of a bus or save situation (or wait until the last minute to make a decision, which is scummy looking). | ||
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On October 02 2012 16:21 Shady Sands wrote: However, he's only a moderate scumread. Depending on what happens between now and when I check in the thread in about 16 or 17 hours, I might change my mind. On October 02 2012 16:39 thrawn2112 wrote: You have about 12 hours 20 minutes left to vote! Deadline is at 20:00 GMT (+00:00) | ||
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On October 02 2012 21:03 Alsn wrote: Your final question about easy outs. At the time I objected to the supposed 100% scum slip based on the idea that he could have used "townie" as a replacement word for player. Ironically, that's the exact same explanation he used himself, which probably added to my feeling that he was getting framed. At the time I was merely giving him the benefit of the doubt though. His reasons that anything else felt awkward was pretty silly but I must have dismissed it for when I finally saw his reasons, I was in full "this is too easy" mode. Yeah, it is a bit ironic he used that exact reason. I was thinking maybe you had a better explanation to his slip, which would've made you less suspicious is my eyes. Downplaying the scum slip because you saw the easy out of him replacing person with townie while simultaneously claiming he's "writing up whatever is on his mind" seems weird to me. | ||
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While I feel like Debears has been acting like I would expect scum to act in a lot of the situations he’s been in, that doesn't make his motivations exclusively scummy. As an example, I've found Debears smoothly jumping Kush's wagon to be suspcious, but reading Debears' filter I don't end up convinced that's the case. For this to be suspicious, it requires the assumption that he had dropped his initial suspicions. Looking back at his posts around that time, I don't think that's clear: + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote: Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. Anyhow. I see two others who have suspiciously posted. I'm pretty sure I've made similar arguments myself, that we gain more information by focusing on multiple suspects. The same can be said for him dropping his suspicion on Djo. Throwing out light suspcicions early on in order to get things started isn't really anti-town. Looking back at his original case, he doesn't seem to push it that hard and honestly I don't find the inconsistency of dropping it as weird as a lot of others seem to: + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote: @Djoref Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Basically I think a lot Debears actions look scummy, but it's not farfetched to see various possible motivations in them. You can argue for a convergence of evidence type case, that when a lot of weaker evidence is pointing in the same direction, there’s often something to it. I think that’s a valid argument and barring scum slips like Kush’s that’s often how scum is found, but I don't think Debears’ story is as incoherent as Alsn’s. I think both have perfectly reasonable “scum stories”, but I find Debears' "town explanations" more believable. If I look at Debears’ story, I can see reasonable explanations for his actions. If I look at Alsn’s story, I just don’t see how I’d ever reach his conclusions. He’s defending Kush with arguments I find weird and I think those can easily be the result of artificially searching them (scum) rather than just naturally reacting (town). Alsn is also more clearly contradicting himself in my opinion. Particularly the part where, despite his introduction post d1, he’s still not liking a Kush lynch on d2 (aka Act IV). | ||
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On October 03 2012 01:54 Alsn wrote: I just realised that him having corrosion as his second biggest scum read isn't necessarily contradictory. He could still be town and legitimately suspect that me and him are the scum team. :/ Bleh, I'll really take a break this time, I need to clear my head. Yeah that's what I was thinking. I'm really dense right now after going through filters so I'm not sure I even fully understood your case. I will say though, that just because the two of you are top scum reads doesn't mean everyone's convinced your both are scum. Like I said to Remedy, I think one of you + a lurker is viable and there are other options too but at this point that's mainly speculating. I'm not even sure even sure that was a essential assumption for your argument. | ||
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On October 03 2012 02:13 Alsn wrote: No, the idea that I had that made me think he must be scum 100% is that I figured from my own point of view a metric fuckton of people think either me or debears or both are scummy. That being the case, I thought that if he was town genuinely suspecting myself of being scum instead of scum trying to desperately lynch someone else(I was the only other scummy target) that it meant him suspecting corrosion must have been a slip somehow and that it meant he must be scum. I'm still pretty sure he's scum, but I just don't think that particular fact is a guaranteed scum tell. I'm still not sure if I get it. Shady is confirmed town because he didn't stick to Corrosions' ideas. Debears attacks Corrosion and thus he's scum. Even if your Corrosion/Shady argument is 100% accurate (quite the stretch), townies can still suspect townies. Am I at least getting close? | ||
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Boson, I got a bit suspicious of Omni after my conversation with him last night. Haven't read his filter yet but I know there's at least one thing I'll bring up tomorrow, can't post it while on my phone. Also, I don't know if you've played with Stutters before, but I played both XXVI and XXVII with him and he played very similar to now (as town). Obviously his style of playing town isn't hard to emulate as scum and I'm not excusing his lacking post, but as far as reads goes he's null for me atm. Anyway, I'm out for the night. | ||
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On October 02 2012 05:10 Omniscient4983 wrote: I'm not jumping the wagon--I've always thought Debears would be a candidate for lynch. There are many points against him, including the association / defense of Kush, townie reference, meta-based arguments, etc... the only thing as of late that erks me is all the different cases. It seems as if he's diverting attention / spreading chaos to make the case against him seem insignificant as compared to those of others. Z-BosoN made an extensive case against him--reference it if you'd like. The long cases don't so much confirm the suspicion as they do add to it. First off, I don't know this "meta-based argument" you're going on? His other scum game isn't comprable neither is it really looking like his play here and we don't even have a town meta on him. You also think his defense of Kush is suspicious, but when Remedy asks you on your town read on Corrosion, you say: On October 02 2012 07:40 Omniscient4983 wrote: @RemedySC I'm sure a few people have mentioned this about Corrosion: the fact that he "attacked" Darth, or, as someone said, "cast a scummy shadow" on him. At this point, he doesn't totally trust Darth because it's d1, and Kush isn't obvious scum yet. Personally, it seems like he is trying to be objective about the issue at hand. He points out a totally plausible case. Later, he mentions that Kush is indeed suspicious but doesn't want to focus on one person like Darth is. I don't see it as scum-motivation or an attack on Darth. I see it as common sense. Huh, so now you see this as common sense? Yet when Debears defends Kush and use these exact same arguments, you think it makes him look scummy? Arguments: + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 11:34 debears wrote: @Darthpunk Do you have links to all your previous games? I see validity in your points. However, I need to see how you've played before. You are coming off really strong really early. On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote: @darthpunk You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation. Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Defense: + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 00:02 debears wrote: 2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address. On October 02 2012 10:54 Omniscient4983 wrote: I'll be reviewing the Alsn case tomorrow after my classes let out. I should be getting home just before lynch time, so I hope can get my thoughts in about Alsn. I'll consider changing my vote based upon these observations. Good night, gentlemen. See you at the gallows. And then yesterday he just leaves off with this. Making empty promises as scum is really easy. You feel you need to because you want to make it yourself look useful but actually following up on them is hard. He hasn't had any thoughts on Alsn except that he's "being null or slightly scum". Considering there were a crapton of arguments against him and he was the focus of a lot of discussion that comes off as scummy. Having thoughts on cases against a townie is really difficult as scum, because you know they're false and all you can see is the poor townie's real intentions. It's easy just to avoid it. Add to that his thoughts on Deabears are wishy-washy at best, his scum hunting is kept to a minimum. That doesn't prevent him from handing out 4 town reads, the same kind of newbie scum mistake Debears made in XXVII and I still curse I didn't follow up on. To sum up: Little to no scum hunting, inconsistent and wishy-washy reasoning for the scum reads he does make, likes giving out town reads. ##FOS Omni | ||
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Nothing of value posted until this: On September 29 2012 01:31 Omniscient4983 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On the whole Kush-scumslip ordeal... The game began, and people were stating their opinions about lurking lynching. DP notes that talk of this policy is simply a way to engage day 1 conversation, and that extended discussion of it can be suspicious. Kush then says: On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote: Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss? It's quite the arrogant remark, to be honest. DP may have been a little stern with his wording, but he certainly didn't come off as an "asshole boss" to me. In my opinion, Kush came on too strong regardless of his role--and i certainly don't like the play. People have mentioned his "scummy meta", but I don't read it as scum, just inconsiderate. This remark catapulted into the DP-Kush arguments. When Kush refers to DP as an "active townie", DP accuses him of a huge slip. On September 28 2012 11:27 DarthPunk wrote: How do you know I am town? You are SCUM The accusation was simple reciprocation. Kush was strong with DP, and now DP is going hard on him with evidence. Fair enough. While the aforementioned scumslip could have been a townie error, I find Kush's response underwhelming, and still, a bit arrogant. On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote: 2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use. Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro. To me, "The most active player; the most active person" don't seem awkward to me. The excuse is weak. And the "bro" at the end is telling of people with weak defenses that need to seem confident. Those are just my thoughts on Kush so far: Reckless, overconfident, and a little suspicious. This happens after Kush's scum slip and after a lot of people had commented on it and all hell broke loose (Darth vs Debears, Darth vs Kush, Boson vs Alsn etc). Omni pops in simply restating what happen and making a very non-commital post. Makes a couple of passive attacks on Stutters and Debears. Over an hour after his initial post he's asked to be more decisive and he responds with a short: On September 29 2012 02:40 Omniscient4983 wrote: + Show Spoiler + @ Z-BosoN The narrative was intentional; both to reiterate events and to weave my thoughts into it. My stance is pretty clear on Kush. He's definitely a possible lynch candidate in my eyes, but I wouldn't go as far as to vote him just yet. Poof, he's gone again. Until this: On September 29 2012 09:44 Omniscient4983 wrote: + Show Spoiler + Woosh, I get back from a little dinner and find Kush complaining about 2 votes and giving up on the world. From a gameplay perspective, I don't feel the whining is conveying any sort of innocence. The dramatization / apologizing is being overplayed. As debears put it, Kush is either: On September 29 2012 09:08 debears wrote: 1) Mafia trying to pity your way out of being lynched. or 2) A little bitch ##Vote: Kush At this point Kush is clearly getting lynched. He's qouting Debears (the guy he just claimed to have scum slipped and was suspicious of+ Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 03:08 Omniscient4983 wrote: I was suspicious of Debears ever since I questioned his claiming Djodref as town He's still produced a grand total of zero scum reads, the first read he makes is a defense of Corrosion: On September 30 2012 06:27 Omniscient4983 wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 30 2012 06:09 Djodref wrote: I would like people to focus more on corrosion than debears because corrosion tired to cast a scummy shadow on Darth while deabears looks more genuine. I agree we should take the focus off of Debears, as Z-BosoN did a fair job of outlining the points against him. But why Corrosion? I realize he opposed the fact that Darth was so heavily attacking Kush, but I don't think he was casting him in a "scummy shadow". His case against Darth was based on nothing, really; just the fact that he thought pursuing the scum-slip and ignoring everyone else was a poor idea. I don't read Corrosion as scum at all. And Debears in no way looks more genuine than him. Then his only original case in the game is attacking Remedy for making a case on Corrosion. Seems more of an attack to defend his town read, which of course is an easy case to make if you know Corrosion is town: On September 30 2012 07:21 Omniscient4983 wrote: + Show Spoiler + I've been reading through RemedySC's filter. I found his last post in particular a bit odd. + Show Spoiler + On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Let me just state the reasons that my vote is on Kush right now: I'm sorry, but I don't believe these are reasons a town would choose to make a vote. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: 1) I think his explanation of the slip was poor. If he had given a good explanation, I might have believed him. So the scum slip itself doesn't give you good reason to vote for him, but his poor defense does? A mafia making a scum slip could have the best explanation in the world. That doesn't exonerate them. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: 2) I've been thinking about who would benefit if the result is a no-lynch. I'm thinking mafia is likely to benefit the most from a no-lynch. So your second reason isn't even something that Kush has done. Wouldn't you also say that mafia would benefit from a mis-lynch more than from a no-lynch? Could you elaborate more on the bolded part, because you give no explanation as to how a mafia would benefit more from a no-lynch. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote: Right now, I think that there's more than a 25 % chance that Kush is scum. Therefore, I'm voting for him. I'm not sure if any of these points are original. I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread, because I tend to get hanged up in details. You would think a town would want to be more than 25% sure the person they are voting for is scum. You don't even have any cases made against kush. No questions asked. Very vague reasons given... I find it odd that RSC was attacking Corrosion for voting Kush. At this point in the game, RSC had already cast his vote for Kush, and his best reason was: On September 29 2012 12:14 RemedySC wrote: You [Kush] are not creating an ideal atmosphere. RSC doesn't really have much motivation for voting Kush, other than the fact that he's disruptive to the gameplay environment. Yet, he picks apart Corrosion for voting him. I don't understand why he'd attack Corrosion's "poor reasons" at all. Take a look at the bolded part of the spoiler. He condemns Corrosion for not having made any cases again Kush, yet RSC himself hasn't done anything of the sort. RSC hasn't posted anything in regards to Kush being scum besides the "creating a bad atmosphere" and "not posting in a pro-town manner" argument. RSC doesn't seem to be any more sure than Corrosion is about lynching Kush, yet he is condemning Corrosion for having bad reasoning. His post seems hypocritical to me. @RemedySC Why, if you had voted Kush with such little evidence, were you outing Corrosion for doing something similar? You almost seemed as if you were defending Kush for no reason in this post. I'm curious, and would like to hear your opinion on things. He's quickly backing off from this case though, not pushing for anymore information once Remedy responds claiming a misunderstanding. All good, everyone friends, Corrosion still town. | ||
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But disregarding his last posts which obviously could be the result of leveling, is his case stronger than the one I just made? Maybe it's the excitement of novelty, but really? At least I'd say Debears play has been way more pro-town. He has his scummy-looking inconsistneies for sure, but at the same time he was aggressive d1. He tried making cases, get the thread started. He took attention because he was willing to, compare that to Omni who's just cruising by. At least I encourage you to pop out of the Debears bubble we've all been in to look at it. Also, to Debears benefit, does scum really hang on this long when faced by pages and pages of accusations? I know I gave in quickly in XXVI because it seemed pointless. And look at Kush's reaction. That's the only examples I have myself from experience, maybe Debears is different. And maybe you can question if a townie would hang in this long. At least Alsn did. | ||
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I think the better question is: why the complete disinterest in the Alsn case and who was getting lynched? Lesrah flipping red obviously means that if Omni is scum, neither Alsn nor Debears is. That would explain why scum would not be interested, it was a town/town wagon all along. | ||
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On October 03 2012 21:12 Djodref wrote: Hey Remedy ! As far as know, Omni didn't even vote for Alsn. I think he really wasn't in the thread because everyone else switched. That was his point, he was distancing himself. I don't think it's valid for the reasons I explained. | ||
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On October 03 2012 22:12 Djodref wrote: @SDM Last time I've checked Omni's filter, I had a slight town-read on him. I think he is a newbie town sheeping onto cases. To be honest, I think the same of the late corrosion, Remedy and Omni. I guess my filter has a little of the same flavor. So I easily sympathize with them and don't try to look more into it. I think we are too gullible and take the cases from more experienced players as the truth itself. After that we are just reading the thread with confirmation bias so it seems natural and ok to jump on bandwagons. But at the same time, we don't want to admit that we are just sheeping so it ends up looking very washy-washy. So when Omni says "I could reference Z-Boson case", I think he just has a strong town read on him and he is sheeping him. Your points are correct nevertheless and I hope they are going to push Omni to shape up and produce better posts. There has definitely been a lot of this going on considering all sheepers can't possibly be scum. The problem is I see a lurker circle jerk where everyone are friends and confirm eachothers townieness. Not through actually looking townie and contributing but because "he looks newbie just like me, probably newbie town". It would suck to lose the game just because we justify sheeping like this. You yourself have really upped both your activity and quality level since I made my case, so kudos. | ||
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On October 03 2012 22:41 Djodref wrote: I would like to propose a plan for tomorrow to promote discussion. Cast enough vote on debears at the beginning of the day for him to be lynched. Then start to discuss who to lynch next in the improbable case where he flips town. If we come up with a better target than debears (I would say 80% mafia now for me because of his last posts and I'm less heated up), we can still switch our votes onto him. By doing things this way, I hope that we can avoid to waste too much time on debears and lurkers to lurk even more. What do you think about this plan ? Shady and I are going to vote him up so we need 3 more guys. Who's in ? What's the in getting a majority at the start of the day? If all who would agree on it has the same opinion by the end of the d3 Debears is getting lynched anyway and if we announce he's getting lynched already we're putting pressure of scum in case he's not. | ||
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On October 03 2012 23:35 DarthPunk wrote: I will vote debears if I am alive. alsn flipping town does not mean Debears is town. Although with Lesrah being red I could see scum Being a lurker. That being said I implore you to look at Shady and Djodref as they are the two other candidates that look scummiest IMO. I was starting to get a town vibe from Djo but Shady, Remedy, Omni and Djo all needs to be looked into in detail. I'm having a sneaking suspicion that Omni won't be the only one who'll come off as scummy. | ||
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On October 04 2012 00:27 DarthPunk wrote: Gah. Should have made the case today. It is there. I feel bad that I didn;t put any effort in today. Hopefully I won;t die. But i certainly don;t like my chances. Any way. sleep then school, i'll check when i get back from uni. BYE ALL <3 What? Case on who? If you die at least you've left us with an intriguing cliffhanger :p | ||
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Oh yeah I'm being dense. I agree on Stutters, his meta is null for me and d1 play townie. For now not a candidate. | ||
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Boson, looking at the role list there is only JK and scum roleblocker. | ||
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On October 04 2012 11:10 Djodref wrote: EBWOP:
Which points do you think he hasn't addressed? Make sure to sum them up before lynch time, because this just looks like a wayyy oversimplification of the case. | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg145/scaled.php?server=145&filename=skrmklipp.jpg&res=landing) I never looked into Corrosion's filter in detail but Shady is coming off suspicious. He first drops in and puts a vote on Alsn d2. Now he just drops in and put a vote in on Debears, a target where there has seemed to concensus in the past and there is unlikely to be resistance. If he's scum he's in a position where there seems to likely be two targets he can pick off really easily and town loses several days. Other than that he's doing nothing at all. Darth was suspicious of him as well, I'll be looking into Shady next | ||
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On October 04 2012 19:27 Djodref wrote: This post is a prepared post to explain my slight town-read on Omni while he is on the spot at the beginning of D3. I'm not going to post it as soon as finish so it might be irrelevant depending on the events in the thread. But as everyone is sleeping or dead, I think it should be ok. Before reading my post, I recommend everyone to check his filter twice with the assumption that he is scum then the assumption that he is town. It's not hard nor long and you can forge your own opinion this way. Nevertheless, here is the points in his filter which speak for him:
But he really needs to post more so... I don't get how any of this speaks for him but yeah, don't defend him any further and wait for him to reply. | ||
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On October 04 2012 19:41 Djodref wrote: Owww shit it looks like I've just clicked on the wrong button... I wanted to say that Omni he's back to a null-read after the redaction of my previous post. I'm really looking forward to see his defense and I hope to see more original cases from him in the future. I also have myself a small point against him that I would like him to comment. What did you do to deserve a chocolate chip ? and Trying to be nice and cute and small attempts to buddy me. What are your motivations behind this ? With the few posts you have, you should better spend them on scum-reads than town-reads. Trying to just get along has scum motivations. It's a if I got your back you got mine type of deal where the one getting the town read goes: "this guy knows I'm town, what a lovely fella! he's probably town too!". Not only is it easier for scum to give out town reads because they know they are correct, but it will also buy sympathy/protection/comfort. | ||
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On October 04 2012 20:25 Djodref wrote: So should I be suspicious of Z-BosoN because he is saying that I'm cute  ?Well, you do come off as quite the cutie :p But seriously, if you look at Boson's play you can hardly accuse him of cockriding. He's been aggressive and pro-town from the start and there's a difference between being able to give out town reads and cockriding. Obviously being aggressive and seemingly pro-town doesn't make one town, but that's the direction I'm leaning in. On October 04 2012 20:30 Djodref wrote: @SDM By the way while you are here, what is your take on the "reluctance" of debears ? We've been discussing the Debears case for almost a week now, it's about time we focus on others. I'll get back with thoughts when we're getting closer to EOD. | ||
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On October 02 2012 16:21 Shady Sands wrote: I'm still not sold on Debears yet. Every time people push him as a lynch and everyone just nods along and agrees (this is based on a cursory ready through 30+ pages of filter late at night, so pardon me if I'm totally wrong about this), I get a wierd feeling in the pit of my stomach. Why? Because scum is already down one, there is almost zero chance they'd accede easily to a second consecutive bus. So if everyone is nodding along on Debears, and scum isn't going to roll over and bus again, then, WIFOM as this reasoning is, it doesn't seem reasonable that Debears should be scum. How do you choose Debears over Alsn because everyone "nods along" to his case? Where did you get the impression anyone was oppose the Alsn wagon? On October 03 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote: Alright, since Lesrah wasn't posting through D2 then that means that if debears was the other scum there was no other scum trying to stop his lynch. Hence the lack of opposition to his lynch becomes less of a town-tell to me. This, coupled with the earlier case on him (which he hasn't adequately responded to, imo) makes me view him as scum. ## Vote debears I mean like... what? The lack of resistance for the Debears wagon was the only reason you didn't like it? And instead choose the Alsn wagon which had just as little resistance? Nothing else, other than that he hasn't "adequately responded" to his earlier case. Not even mentioning which part of the case you think makes Debears suspicious. Not only do your weak reasoning make you suspicious of Debears, it makes you certain he is scum? On October 03 2012 13:16 Shady Sands wrote: Why should I? It wastes a nightcheck on someone I'm certain is scum. Such complete and ridiculous sheeping, unfortunately you're not the only one. On October 04 2012 17:08 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Shady is coming off suspicious. He first drops in and puts a vote on Alsn d2. Now he just drops in and put a vote in on Debears, a target where there has seemed to concensus in the past and there is unlikely to be resistance. If he's scum he's in a position where there seems to likely be two targets he can pick off really easily and town loses several days. Other than that he's doing nothing at all. | ||
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On October 05 2012 00:18 Z-BosoN wrote: I take RSC to be town. His posts seem genuine, despite posting less, and he's made some good points on corrosion (now shady) and omni, my two main suspicions. It seems like his townie meta, I'd like someone who's played with him to confirm. This only leaves SS and Omni, both players who attacked kush in a non-convincing manner early in day one and hopped on not too impressively on the Alsn wagon. I still have to read more carefully, but from my readings on my small-screened cell phone in class, It seems this way. SS and Omni seem like good lynch contenders for the second edition of battle for the noose What do you guys think? I played XXVII with Remedy but I got NK n1 and only followed the game casually after that. Didn't pay too much attention to Remedy (town), he kept quite a low activity level and didn't really stick out (I was a bit suspicious of him but I think it was mostly because of his low activity). If anything my feeling is his posts are of higher quality this game but I don't have any scum meta from him and I'd need to go through his filter in order to get a better read. Yeah, I think both Omni and Shady look like two good lynching candidates. They really need to get into this thread and start contributing/answering questions. Seriously, last couple of days Shady, Omni and Stutters have been basically completely missing and a handful of others don't post a lot at all. | ||
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On October 05 2012 00:43 debears wrote: ebwop @sonic yeah Post those notes if they're readable. Or otherwise some summary of what you found. | ||
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On October 05 2012 01:28 Djodref wrote: Also I would agree that Remedy has the strongest town posts among the newbie lurkers. But it could still be not so difficult to produce such a play as scum, doesn't it ? I mean that he mainly kept his eye on the newbies... He's null to me right now. Like you say his low activity level style play is easy to emulate as scum. | ||
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##Vote Omniscient4983 This doesn't mean you're off the hook, Shady. Both of you need to start posting. | ||
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On October 05 2012 13:04 RemedySC wrote: Why have such an out of the blue description of what could have happened? He seems to know a lot about what scum would have done in this situation. For mafia motivation I can see him trying to lead us to three lynches, which we've already done one. I know Drazak slipped his medic role in XXVI after his night action and Xatalos picked up on it (that's why I don't really like blue role discussions after night actions). This is not how he slipped though, Drazak slipped it by talking about the rationale of the medic. I feel like this could easily just be scum trying to passively suggest three mislynches (we should lynch Debears, Djodref and Alsn, not because I want to but because Darth wants to) or just a green speculating. Or possibly a medic, but the risk of him being medic AND missing to save Darth seems rather low to me. You need two rather low probability events to coincide for that to be true. Basically I just don't make much out of this post. | ||
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On October 05 2012 14:19 Shady Sands wrote: By the way, I'm reading through the thread. Right now, my top scumread, believe it or not, is Z-Boson. His interaction with Kush D1 was just... strange (it almost feels like half of the discussion there was occurring somewhere else, like in the Scum QT), his unvote of Debears and transfer to Alsn is also wierd, and finally his constant fingerpointing without any commitment D3 fits the profile of being the very last scum trying to stay alive and set up mislynch chains over the next few cycles. ##FoS Z-Boson Is this the point where you disappear again? You might want to answer these questions: On October 04 2012 22:16 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Just went through the Shady part of the filter... not a lot of posts but the ones there are certainly aren't convincing. How do you choose Debears over Alsn because everyone "nods along" to his case? Where did you get the impression anyone was oppose the Alsn wagon? I mean like... what? The lack of resistance for the Debears wagon was the only reason you didn't like it? And instead choose the Alsn wagon which had just as little resistance? Nothing else, other than that he hasn't "adequately responded" to his earlier case. Not even mentioning which part of the case you think makes Debears suspicious. Not only do your weak reasoning make you suspicious of Debears, it makes you certain he is scum? Such complete and ridiculous sheeping, unfortunately you're not the only one. Now I'll give you, making a case against Boson doesn't come off as very scummy to me since it'll definitely give you some attention, but it could easily be that you've read my "just cruising by" argument against and realize you need something new. This needs to be something better than a "His interaction with Kush D1 was just... strange" quality argument. Point out what about the discussion you think is occuring somewhere else. | ||
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On October 05 2012 14:30 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Is this the point where you disappear again? Confirmed. I'll just say right away I'm not jumping a late Boson wagon, at least not if those are the arguments. Shady's post is a joke, what does this even mean? On October 05 2012 14:19 Shady Sands wrote: his unvote of Debears and transfer to Alsn is also wierd I have no idea what's going on here. | ||
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On October 05 2012 15:07 Djodref wrote: Seriously guys, we have to be careful. Looking at today's discussion, in the case of a town Omni, this is just a golden day for the last scum ! He can just drop by, cast his vote on Omni with a good reason because it's true that he does look scummy and disappear without anyone noticing him. In my opinion, Omni is a lurker above anything else and we have yet to hear from him. With his posting habits, I doubt that he is going to have enough time to defend himself... And what's your counter suggestion? Push a lynch on Boson who no one other than Debears seem to have looked into in detail until just a few minutes ago? What happened to your conviction to lynch Debears? | ||
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On October 05 2012 16:11 Djodref wrote: And right now, I want to lynch debears much much more than Z-Boson. I think you have misread me. Also regarding the vote of Z-Boson during D2, I really felt that he reserved his right to vote after his "battle for the noose post". By unvoting just after this post (let the best scum survive) and voting at the end of day for the wagon of his choice, it could have been a very safe way to cast his vote, if he was scum. I don't know what you're trying to say. Under the assumption Boson is scum, it was a town/town wagon. | ||
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On October 05 2012 16:41 Z-BosoN wrote: This is very intriguing... Thanks for that post SS, it brought out some very interesting reactions. Of course, your case is laughable, as usual. Of course, as scum, I would want to switch my vote towards a townie, in favor of, let's see, another townie. I will definitely bother producing a fuckton of text just for that. Anyways, djodref managed to be even worse. Please reread your points against me, and think of how they could come from me as scum. Think about what your FOS accomplishes for town here today. I'll be accepting donations to make up for you making my eyes bleed. If Omni doesn't answer, it's either debears/djodref/SS imo. Pointless lynching a modkill. Will decide come tomorrow, I gotta go sleep. SDM, I'd love to know your input on who you'd rather lynch save Omni. I'm sleepy as hell and will go to sleep, but probably during class tomorrow I'm gonna make up my mind. RSC, same thing. Gnight! Not sure, Shady was my second pick until my brain just recently exploded. Djo's FOS was totally of the blue but I don't necessarily see a strong mafia motivation. If he's mafia maybe he wanted an easy wagon on you and backed off once Debears and I replied? Seems kind of unlikely. | ||
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On October 05 2012 20:09 Shady Sands wrote: This is exactly the sort of post which I don't like seeing from Z-Boson. Let's see what it does for him here: 1) It makes him look pro-town without contributing independent analysis 2) It lets him potentially join a wagon on nearly anyone in the town without looking suspicious 3) It puts all the onus for scumhunting on other people while not putting his own neck out for anyone 4) It lets him have an excuse to get the last word in/join a wagon late without his timing looking suspicious at all You haven't even clarified why you voted Debears. | ||
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On October 05 2012 20:32 Shady Sands wrote: ebwop I see what you mean here. I voted Debears because he was playing scummy, and because other than him, there was no good lynch candidate. But if Z-Boson is scum, then Debears can't be, and it makes me view the case on Debears (a large part of which came from ZB) in a new light. Does that make sense? No, not at all. For starters, explain why Debears can't be scum. | ||
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On October 05 2012 20:37 Djodref wrote: So why shouldn't we lynch debears first to have his alignment ? I think we can have a consensus today on debears and hopefully Omni gets modkilled. What do you think about this proposition ? If we lynch Debears it should be because we think he's a likely scum. I'm not totally opposed to that idea, but do you think his alignment will tell us? Besides I'm more suspicious of this Shady guy than I am of Debears atm. | ||
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On October 05 2012 20:46 Shady Sands wrote: No I know Alsn is town. I know ZB is trying to avoid pushing hard for a Debears lynch D2/3 even though he pushed a Debears lynch D1. Thus ZB's case on Debears feels insincere. Thus most of the case on Debears gets thrown out by me. At the same time, I ask why ZB would want to push for a D1 Debears lynch even over Kush. Answer: Save Kush since Lesrah is AFK. I also ask why ZB would suddenly back away D2/D3. Answer: Avoid having town realize that the D1 push on Debears was a mislynch, accrue towncred, survive till endgame. I cannot find any townie motivation why ZB would flip from pushing Debears over Kush D1 to accepting Alsn D2 and FoSing half the town over Debears D3. That's actually an interesting case. It's true Boson ignored the Kush case d1. He had a good case on Debears imo, so I didn't really find it weird he was pushing his own case (we all tend to be biased towards our own cases, at least that's true for me). I need to go back and look up his filter myself. He did switch to Alsn and I can't remember his reasonings. I feel like the individual pieces of evidence you have are not that strong, but they paint an interesting picture. One question I have right off the bat, if it was all a big master plan, why did he initially vote for Debears d2? Seems like it could've caused the noose battle to become one-sided. Anyway, I'll go back and check his filter, I'm not 100% sure of those events. What do you think of the Omni case? Having to read both of your filters I doubt I'll have time to make up my mind on this and I still like it. | ||
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Alsn by Darth 1-1 Debears by Alsn 2-1 Debears by Omni 3-1 Alsn by SDM 3-2 Alsn by Debears 3-3 Alsn by Shady 4-4 Unvote + BotN by Boson 3-4 Alsn by Remedy 3-5 Alsn by Djo 2-6 Alsn by Stutters 2-7 Alsn by Boson 2-8 I'd need my conspiracy goggles on to see Boson pushing Alsn here. Read the links, it doesn't looks like Boson tries to nudge the decision in Debears favor. The case doesn't necessarily hinge on this, but it makes it considerably weaker. I'd need more time to read filters... | ||
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On October 05 2012 22:55 Z-BosoN wrote: EBWOP lynch him the next day if we decide he is scum. Also, sdm. Save my filter for the night. If you don't have enough time, decide between SS and djodref. This idea to bring up a ridiculous case on me in late day 3 when I'm not even a lynch choice is typical shady's dumb thinking, which mostly manifests itself when he is town. Also, doint ignore the fact he ignored your case. Anyways, I'm leaning slight town on him (plus, corrosion bothered writing a list before he left, as if he genuinely wants to help town. I feel if he were scum, he would just abandon this game and not care). omni seems scummy but is a wasteful lynch if he gets nodkilled, so that only leaves djodref, from my pov. Now that, from a skim of his filter, I can definitely see him as sxum, I want to lynch him atm. I have no idea what to make out of all this. It doesn't look like a bad case but I'm having a feeling the more I look into it, the more farfetched it becomes. Or you are fucking genius. I mean, both the d1 against Debears and the d2 case against Alsn are good. All of us found them so good we voted at least one of them. I'm still leaning Omni, since he's both very scummy and a complete lurker. but I still got a few more minutes to read filters. | ||
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On October 05 2012 23:27 Z-BosoN wrote: Then please use your remaining time on djodref. I'm likely going to push a lynch on him when I get home. I'm feeling pretty confident he's our last remaining scum. The thing about omni is I recall a post where I get the feeling he is genuinely going after kush. He claims him "a little suspicious", and still presses on later. His town case still feels weird as fuck, but ill grant that rsc asked him for it. Anyways, granted he is getting modkilled most likely, I'd change focus. I'm actually pretty damn confident now. Gah can't wait to get home!! No, pretty sure the only thing he does is give a wishy washy answer to Darth's question and then disappears. | ||
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On October 06 2012 01:25 debears wrote: @Djo Considering you were third on my scum list, and numbers 1(Omni) and 2 (SS) aren't sensible lynches atm, you are now my top scumread. Omni will most likely get modkilled. SS has posted a case using a similar line of thinking that I did earlier. Also, he took head on the most/2nd most townie person here. What kind of scum would do that when the scum could focus on me, omni, you, or stutters and get easy mislynches? You, on the other hand, sheeped onto his case, which would be easy for mafia to do, as SS would take the blame. You just repeat Shady's reasoning, and now when Z-Bo attacks you, you instead just transfer back to me after FOSing Z-Bo. Your actions don't make sense from a townie perspective. They make plenty from mafia perspective. That, considering the rest of your actions this game, give me a strong mafia read. ##Vote: Djodref Consider that we need to consolidate 5 votes on one player. If Stutters and Omni doesn't show up and Shady doesn't return, the only ones we can consolidate on seems to be Stutters and Omni. Obviously Stutters isn't an option, which leaves Omni. And Omni is a cancerous lurker and scummy as hell. But if Stutters and Omni doesn't show up they might be modkilled anyway. Or is this even guaranteed? What a fucked up situation. | ||
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Do we need 5 votes or is 4 enough? | ||
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On October 06 2012 01:26 debears wrote: Also @Shady and SDM Would you like to see my notes on Z-Bo in terms of meta? Yes. | ||
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On October 06 2012 01:25 debears wrote: @Djo Considering you were third on my scum list, and numbers 1(Omni) and 2 (SS) aren't sensible lynches atm, you are now my top scumread. Omni will most likely get modkilled. SS has posted a case using a similar line of thinking that I did earlier. Also, he took head on the most/2nd most townie person here. What kind of scum would do that when the scum could focus on me, omni, you, or stutters and get easy mislynches? What were your reasons for wanting to lynch SS earlier? | ||
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And where the is Remedy, I'd imagine he'll show up at least. But not even that's for sure. | ||
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On October 06 2012 02:12 debears wrote: is shady not coming back? Who knows? Judging by his past posting habits my best guess is no. | ||
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On October 06 2012 02:34 thrawn2112 wrote: The number of votes needed to lynch is 4. If Stutters and/or Omni don't show up, they will be modkilled. Oh, Omni will probably get modkilled anyway and Stutters is back. Yeah, I think it makes sense to vote Djo. | ||
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On October 06 2012 03:21 debears wrote: Yeah you're right SDM If mafia claimed cop, and they were godfather, they would know there's a cop. If mafia was a framer, they would know there's a cop. If mafia was a goon, they would be risking a claim on the fact that there would not be a cop when there still could be I've seen setups with miller without a rolechecker in earlier newbies (or some game on TL, not sure what), don't think you can reason this way. Seem like a high % legit claim, is there any way to be 100%? | ||
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On October 06 2012 03:34 Djodref wrote: I would like to add that you shouldn't take any of my results for granted. I'm quite sure that we have a gf and that they are irrelevant. Nah, they're not irrelevant. Anyone checked is less likely to be scum. | ||
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On October 06 2012 03:39 debears wrote: @SDM How so? I could see it if we were talking 2 scum left. Is this under the assumption that there isn't a godfather and instead a framer or goon lefT? If you work with probabilities it means the chance is lower, but of course you never know. Kind of like when you play poker and hit a pretty good hand, the chance of you winning is higher but you never know. Worst analogy ever. | ||
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On October 06 2012 03:51 Stutters695 wrote: If suggest throwing your vote on z-boson just in case you don't make it back. Worst case nothing happens/you can change it but it gives us another swing option if we decide on him. What's your argument for Boson? The fact that he disappeared or something else? | ||
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On October 06 2012 04:11 Stutters695 wrote: Just wanted to keep our options open in case he isn't back. With "he" you're referring to Debears right? I think I misunderstood first time around. | ||
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On October 06 2012 04:16 RemedySC wrote: Well Z-bo or Debears would probably give us the most information, since Omni is likely to be modkilled. What do you think SDM? My biggest scum read is set up for a modkill. Shady just got peeked and I wasn't entirely convinced before hand either. Next on my list would be Debears but I haven't given him much thought today until all this happened. Wasn't convinced about the Boson case and my state of mind isn't optimal for great decision making right now. I wouldn't mind a no lynch. | ||
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Seriously Debears, wtf? Your case reeks of desperation. I don't get how on earth you end up getting me associated with Kush. It seems to me Kush was less inflammatory against people not cursing at him or telling him he was scum in bolded, red versals. That might have something to do with it, I don’t know. What a weird argument coming from someone who tried to avoid pushing Kush despite him looking scummy as hell. Overconfidence: I'm not sure you understood what made me suspicious of you in XXVII. XXVII stuff in here: + Show Spoiler + One part was because you made a lengthy defense of thrawn for no real reason. I think this was the legit part. The other part was something I still think was a genuine misunderstanding (thrawn's intentions), which was why I thought the case was made weaker. My #1 scum read d1 was Sharrant. I really liked that case and it had 2-3 good motivations behind it. After I was killed off n1 I just followed the game in the Obs QT. On d2 I was confident Stutters was scum. On d3 I was confident Atreides was scum. So basically all my 3 strongest reads in XXVII turned out wrong. You couldn't know this because you were still in the game so I'll give you a pass on this one, but this is all in the XXVII Obs QT. Time and indecision: Shady's post on Boson pissed me off at first because he had been dodging my questions for a long while. I responded barely reading his case because given the quality of his earlier cases I was sure it was complete crap. When Shady started replying I realized I had to go back to understand wtf he was talking about, as anyone can see my attempts in replying to him were just messed up at first. Open-ended answers: Seriosuly, what kind of argument is this? In the first bolded part it's clear I think (based on my experience) it's less likely for scum to hang on for this long. But since my experience is limited to two games I was looking for opinions from others as well. The second bolded part, I just don't think the argument they were making held much weight and it made sense to point that out. Contributions: I thought Djo came off scummy d1/n1 and I pointed it out. In the end I thought Boson's cases made more sense. Considering the validity of other cases kind of seemed to be a good idea. And I don't get why you'd say my Omni case wasn't original or at least added a lot of weight to it with new argumetns. About Alsn, wtf? My arguments against him wasn't based on him pointing out that focusing on others would be good for town, but that he was directly defending him (read my post again) using weird arguments. I by no means "cleared" you because you suggested focusing on others, but at least it could have town motivations. Indecisive again: I was being indecisive here for sure. How on earth wouldn't I be? If you go read my d3 filter I basically never considered you for lynch d3. I was highly suspicious of Omni and Djo, quite suspicious of Shady and had moments of doubts wrt Boson. In the end Omni was likely to head for modkill, Djo just claimed cop, Shady had been peeked and I decided the Boson case was weak. All of a sudden all my d3 considerations had gone out the window. And at this point you expect me to me mr decisive? Last time I pushed a last minute switch I hadn't thought over I caused the mislynch of Drazak. When i got back all hell had broken loose. The only thing I had time to react to was that Boson had seemingly become a lynching target and claimed vet. Lynching him made no sense at all. And somewhere you also argue that my recent absence from the thread is somehow scummy? Gah, how is all this not just an act of desperation? ##Vote Debears | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
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Sonic Death Monkey
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On October 08 2012 09:00 debears wrote: First, SDM SDM, you suddenly found me to be a townie after d2's lynch. Let me go back and examine why. + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2012 01:34 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: About the Debears case: My argument for wanting to lynch Alsn instead of Debears is that between the two of them, I think Debears' motivations are less clearly scummy. While I feel like Debears has been acting like I would expect scum to act in a lot of the situations he’s been in, that doesn't make his motivations exclusively scummy. As an example, I've found Debears smoothly jumping Kush's wagon to be suspcious, but reading Debears' filter I don't end up convinced that's the case. For this to be suspicious, it requires the assumption that he had dropped his initial suspicions. Looking back at his posts around that time, I don't think that's clear: + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote: Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG". Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come. Anyhow. I see two others who have suspiciously posted. I'm pretty sure I've made similar arguments myself, that we gain more information by focusing on multiple suspects. The same can be said for him dropping his suspicion on Djo. Throwing out light suspcicions early on in order to get things started isn't really anti-town. Looking back at his original case, he doesn't seem to push it that hard and honestly I don't find the inconsistency of dropping it as weird as a lot of others seem to: + Show Spoiler + On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote: @Djoref Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times. Basically I think a lot Debears actions look scummy, but it's not farfetched to see various possible motivations in them. You can argue for a convergence of evidence type case, that when a lot of weaker evidence is pointing in the same direction, there’s often something to it. I think that’s a valid argument and barring scum slips like Kush’s that’s often how scum is found, but I don't think Debears’ story is as incoherent as Alsn’s. I think both have perfectly reasonable “scum stories”, but I find Debears' "town explanations" more believable. If I look at Debears’ story, I can see reasonable explanations for his actions. If I look at Alsn’s story, I just don’t see how I’d ever reach his conclusions. He’s defending Kush with arguments I find weird and I think those can easily be the result of artificially searching them (scum) rather than just naturally reacting (town). Alsn is also more clearly contradicting himself in my opinion. Particularly the part where, despite his introduction post d1, he’s still not liking a Kush lynch on d2 (aka Act IV). Then, your next post that talks about me more than one line. + Show Spoiler + On October 03 2012 20:43 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I don't know what to make of Debears post-d2 posts because it's putting me in total WIFOM mode and I should probably just ignore it. But disregarding his last posts which obviously could be the result of leveling, is his case stronger than the one I just made? Maybe it's the excitement of novelty, but really? At least I'd say Debears play has been way more pro-town. He has his scummy-looking inconsistneies for sure, but at the same time he was aggressive d1. He tried making cases, get the thread started. He took attention because he was willing to, compare that to Omni who's just cruising by. At least I encourage you to pop out of the Debears bubble we've all been in to look at it. Also, to Debears benefit, does scum really hang on this long when faced by pages and pages of accusations? I know I gave in quickly in XXVI because it seemed pointless. And look at Kush's reaction. That's the only examples I have myself from experience, maybe Debears is different. And maybe you can question if a townie would hang in this long. At least Alsn did. Ok let's summarize your reasons for me seeming town. 1) I was aggressive d1 2) Scum doesn't hang on that long faced with pages of accusation Two pretty piss poor reasons to view me as town, especially when you say that I definitely have my scummy looking inconsistencies. Also, based on your argument earlier, right now I am town. I am being extremely aggressive and active. I have the spotlight. And I am hanging on and contributing what I can before I get lynched while looking scummy. Contradiction no? Here is the main thing that showed me that SDM is scum. The rest of the my original case is stuff I found looking back hard at his filter. Finally, @SDM WHY DID YOU NOT GO OVER MY FILTER AT ALL DURING ALL OF DAY 3 WHEN YOU SAID MY ACTIONS WERE SCUMMY AND I WAS THE OTHER MAIN LYNCH CANDIDATE? WHY DID YOU NOT VOTE ME RIGHT BEFORE LYNCH, THEN DISAPPEAR AFTER A MOVE THAT WOULD BE STUPID FOR A TOWNIE TO MAKE? WHY WAS YOUR VOTE PARKED ON OMNISCIENT WHO WE KNEW WOULD GET MODKILLED? Remember, Z-Bo, SS, and RSC, mafia make mistakes too. I feel that this was a HUGE scumslip by SDM. Look at his rebuttal post. HE DOES NOT MENTION THE MAIN POINT OF MY ARGUMENT AGAINST HIM. Why? BECAUSE HE IS SCUM AND HE KNOWS I'M RIGHT. HE HAS NO DEFENSE. + Show Spoiler + On October 08 2012 04:23 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: I'm up to date again. Seriously Debears, wtf? Your case reeks of desperation. I don't get how on earth you end up getting me associated with Kush. It seems to me Kush was less inflammatory against people not cursing at him or telling him he was scum in bolded, red versals. That might have something to do with it, I don’t know. What a weird argument coming from someone who tried to avoid pushing Kush despite him looking scummy as hell. Overconfidence: I'm not sure you understood what made me suspicious of you in XXVII. XXVII stuff in here: + Show Spoiler + One part was because you made a lengthy defense of thrawn for no real reason. I think this was the legit part. The other part was something I still think was a genuine misunderstanding (thrawn's intentions), which was why I thought the case was made weaker. My #1 scum read d1 was Sharrant. I really liked that case and it had 2-3 good motivations behind it. After I was killed off n1 I just followed the game in the Obs QT. On d2 I was confident Stutters was scum. On d3 I was confident Atreides was scum. So basically all my 3 strongest reads in XXVII turned out wrong. You couldn't know this because you were still in the game so I'll give you a pass on this one, but this is all in the XXVII Obs QT. Time and indecision: Shady's post on Boson pissed me off at first because he had been dodging my questions for a long while. I responded barely reading his case because given the quality of his earlier cases I was sure it was complete crap. When Shady started replying I realized I had to go back to understand wtf he was talking about, as anyone can see my attempts in replying to him were just messed up at first. Open-ended answers: Seriosuly, what kind of argument is this? In the first bolded part it's clear I think (based on my experience) it's less likely for scum to hang on for this long. But since my experience is limited to two games I was looking for opinions from others as well. The second bolded part, I just don't think the argument they were making held much weight and it made sense to point that out. Contributions: I thought Djo came off scummy d1/n1 and I pointed it out. In the end I thought Boson's cases made more sense. Considering the validity of other cases kind of seemed to be a good idea. And I don't get why you'd say my Omni case wasn't original or at least added a lot of weight to it with new argumetns. About Alsn, wtf? My arguments against him wasn't based on him pointing out that focusing on others would be good for town, but that he was directly defending him (read my post again) using weird arguments. I by no means "cleared" you because you suggested focusing on others, but at least it could have town motivations. Indecisive again: I was being indecisive here for sure. How on earth wouldn't I be? If you go read my d3 filter I basically never considered you for lynch d3. I was highly suspicious of Omni and Djo, quite suspicious of Shady and had moments of doubts wrt Boson. In the end Omni was likely to head for modkill, Djo just claimed cop, Shady had been peeked and I decided the Boson case was weak. All of a sudden all my d3 considerations had gone out the window. And at this point you expect me to me mr decisive? Last time I pushed a last minute switch I hadn't thought over I caused the mislynch of Drazak. When i got back all hell had broken loose. The only thing I had time to react to was that Boson had seemingly become a lynching target and claimed vet. Lynching him made no sense at all. And somewhere you also argue that my recent absence from the thread is somehow scummy? Gah, how is all this not just an act of desperation? ##Vote Debears I have made big cases on every single person in this game besides Lesrah and RSC. I have not shared most of them with you guys. Why? Because I only present ones that make the most sense to me. OUT OF ALL MY CASES THIS GAME, THIS ONE MAKES THE MOST SENSE. Jesus, read my filter. The second post of mine is arguing why I think Omni is more suspicious, not proclaiming you as town. I also said we needed to focus on others because we had been discussing you for a week. On October 04 2012 20:59 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: We've been discussing the Debears case for almost a week now, it's about time we focus on others. I'll get back with thoughts when we're getting closer to EOD. I never did, because when Shady stumbles into the thread with all kind of messy posts, I got more suspicious of him. On October 05 2012 20:44 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Besides I'm more suspicious of this Shady guy than I am of Debears atm. I also had to make up my mind on Boson because the final Shady case made kind of some kind of sense (so i checked the d2 voting and after that considered it weak). Djo came off as weird as well d3, I didn't know what to make of him jumping on the Shady's silly ideas instantly. And he was being quite insistant on his town read on Omni eventhough I found that case really good (finally giving in and voting on him because it'd make him post better). I didn't know what to make of that and closer to EOD I checked Djo's filter as suggested by Boson. This is where my focus was. When it all finally blew up with the cop claim, I had put no focus on you whatsoever and was quite happy to make sure my #1 scum read would get killed off. If he didn't flip red we'd still be in a good d4 situation where we actually could think things over instead of having a repeat of the Drazak fuck up. And I addressed this in my last post, I just didn't spell it all out in detail because it's all in my fucking filter that you've supposedly read. | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
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On October 08 2012 09:04 debears wrote: As an FYI, I am done defending my actions. I will be lynched. I don't care. I'm in full attack mode. That's a lie. Let me quote the beginning of my case against you. + Show Spoiler + On October 07 2012 16:23 debears wrote: Aright guys, I'm gonna put something new into the thread. Considering that Djo and Z-Bo are pretty much confirmed at this point, I was wondering why we are having so much trouble this game with finding the last mafia. My conclusions: The last mafia is playing a hell of a game. Looking at this, I've been wondering who is capable of this. At this point, I'd see Z-Bo, SDM, and SS. Z-Bo is confirmed. SS has said some scummy things and is at threat of being lynched. However, one person has managed to avoid the spotlight throughout the whole game. He has not had anyone actually attack (besides Z-Bo day 1, but that was an argument over the validity of my defense of SDM early). That person is SDM. Recently, his refusal to vote me in the lynch set off some alarms in my head. I've looked through his filter and found some things that don't make townie sense. In no way do I say Z-Bo is likely scum. I say he is confirmed town. YOU ARE LYING Where in God's name did I say you thought Boson was scummy? | ||
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Sonic Death Monkey
Sweden991 Posts
Seriously, you even bring up me pointing out that players peeked as townies being are less likely to be scum as me trying to keep off the topic on who to lynch. Even though I was responding to your question, where you seemed fond of the idea of that players peeked townie were just as likely to be scum. Convenient huh, considering you were not peeked townie. And this was supposedly a way for me to keep the topic off of lynching you, when at the same time lynching you would've been beneficial to me if I was scum. How does any of this make sense? It doesn't, because you're pushing a silly desperation case. | ||
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On October 08 2012 12:06 debears wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 08 2012 09:45 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Jesus, read my filter. The second post of mine is arguing why I think Omni is more suspicious, not proclaiming you as town. I also said we needed to focus on others because we had been discussing you for a week. I never did, because when Shady stumbles into the thread with all kind of messy posts, I got more suspicious of him. I also had to make up my mind on Boson because the final Shady case made kind of some kind of sense (so i checked the d2 voting and after that considered it weak). Djo came off as weird as well d3, I didn't know what to make of him jumping on the Shady's silly ideas instantly. And he was being quite insistant on his town read on Omni eventhough I found that case really good (finally giving in and voting on him because it'd make him post better). I didn't know what to make of that and closer to EOD I checked Djo's filter as suggested by Boson. This is where my focus was. When it all finally blew up with the cop claim, I had put no focus on you whatsoever and was quite happy to make sure my #1 scum read would get killed off. If he didn't flip red we'd still be in a good d4 situation where we actually could think things over instead of having a repeat of the Drazak fuck up. And I addressed this in my last post, I just didn't spell it all out in detail because it's all in my fucking filter that you've supposedly read. This is a bs excuse. You thought my actions were scummy, yet you never in d3 looked at my filter? What kind of scumhunting is that? The only reason i don't check someones filter at least once a cycle is if i am pretty sure they are town. Why in the hell would you not check my filter if you are town, if you found me scummy, and if you are actually scumhunting. Hell even when i had a town read on you i checked your filter from this game and other games. You're argument makes no sense from a townies perspective. You're no lynch makes no sense from a townie perspective. I'm getting tired of this. I don't have the time to check everyone's filter every cycle. Who the fuck has the time to do that? I try to focus on what is important, which was peolpe we hadn't discussed for a week straight. I'm trying to look at townie motivations for what you're doing, but I can see none. If you really are townie, where the hell did your SS suspicions go? The trap you set? Or the fact that he was completely missing from the last minute lynch talk? Him leaving his vote on Boson then disappearing, nearly causing a mislynch, convinced you he was townie? | ||
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Sweden991 Posts
[QUOTE]On October 08 2012 09:48 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: [QUOTE]On October 08 2012 09:04 debears wrote: As an FYI, I am done defending my actions. I will be lynched. I don't care. I'm in full attack mode. [QUOTE]On October 08 2012 05:40 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: Steaming off a bit I have no idea what your town motivations would be, Debears. How did you switch so fast between SS being scum and onto me? Your case against starts with you saying both of us are likely scum and somehow ends with you being willing to bet anything on me being scum. It makes no sense unless it's a scum desperation move.[/QUOTE] Where in God's name did I say you thought Boson was scummy?[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]On October 08 2012 12:21 debears wrote: Nice attempt to lie and get away with it. Luckily I'm not retarded and I'm not desperate[/QUOTE] What the fuck are you saying? I don't mention Boson one time in this quote. I'm clearly talking about me and SS. That's why I mention SS and not Boson. | ||
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@Boson, yes. I'm leaning towards SS, but Remedy has been lurky and I've barely looked into his filter because my intuition had me leaning townie early. He's more or less null and him being one of the remaining two I consider possible scum overlooking that risk would be stupid. | ||
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However, I don't feel like Shady's story adds up. We all know Shady's entrance to the thread, jumping the Alsn bandwagon, so I'm not going to get into that. In itself it's not necessarily scummy because he was new to the game, but it's the start. D3 it continues. He makes a short and weak case for voting on Debears, who seems to be the guy everyone's going to wagon: On October 03 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote: + Show Spoiler + Alright, since Lesrah wasn't posting through D2 then that means that if debears was the other scum there was no other scum trying to stop his lynch. Hence the lack of opposition to his lynch becomes less of a town-tell to me. This, coupled with the earlier case on him (which he hasn't adequately responded to, imo) makes me view him as scum. ## Vote debears I questioned him about this earlier without a response (read it): On October 04 2012 22:16 Sonic Death Monkey wrote: + Show Spoiler + Just went through the Shady part of the filter... not a lot of posts but the ones there are certainly aren't convincing. On October 02 2012 16:21 Shady Sands wrote: I'm still not sold on Debears yet. Every time people push him as a lynch and everyone just nods along and agrees (this is based on a cursory ready through 30+ pages of filter late at night, so pardon me if I'm totally wrong about this), I get a wierd feeling in the pit of my stomach. Why? Because scum is already down one, there is almost zero chance they'd accede easily to a second consecutive bus. So if everyone is nodding along on Debears, and scum isn't going to roll over and bus again, then, WIFOM as this reasoning is, it doesn't seem reasonable that Debears should be scum. How do you choose Debears over Alsn because everyone "nods along" to his case? Where did you get the impression anyone was oppose the Alsn wagon? On October 03 2012 10:01 Shady Sands wrote: Alright, since Lesrah wasn't posting through D2 then that means that if debears was the other scum there was no other scum trying to stop his lynch. Hence the lack of opposition to his lynch becomes less of a town-tell to me. This, coupled with the earlier case on him (which he hasn't adequately responded to, imo) makes me view him as scum. ## Vote debears I mean like... what? The lack of resistance for the Debears wagon was the only reason you didn't like it? And instead choose the Alsn wagon which had just as little resistance? Nothing else, other than that he hasn't "adequately responded" to his earlier case. Not even mentioning which part of the case you think makes Debears suspicious. Not only do your weak reasoning make you suspicious of Debears, it makes you certain he is scum? Instead of replying to my questions, he later pops into the thread with a FOS on Boson. Completely out of the blue and without explaining why he dropped his certain scum read that was Debears: On October 05 2012 14:19 Shady Sands wrote: + Show Spoiler + By the way, I'm reading through the thread. Right now, my top scumread, believe it or not, is Z-Boson. His interaction with Kush D1 was just... strange (it almost feels like half of the discussion there was occurring somewhere else, like in the Scum QT), his unvote of Debears and transfer to Alsn is also wierd, and finally his constant fingerpointing without any commitment D3 fits the profile of being the very last scum trying to stay alive and set up mislynch chains over the next few cycles. ##FoS Z-Boson So, after being accused for scummy sheeping he ignores the questions and decides to make an original case. Note how he later uses this case to argue that it's not something scum would do. This is BS, after people putting focus on others than Debears (mainly Omni and himself) and him taking heat for sheeping, it's what he had to do in order to try to stay off the radar. He simply couldn't sheep anymore. (The case in itself is decent but if you just look at the d2 voting and the posts around it, it becomes pretty clear Boson wasn't the one nudging the decision towards Alsn. And it would have to be one hell of an elaborate plot which in itself is unlikely) On n3 he remains suspicious of Boson and when Debears posts his "scum slip trap", Shady reacts like this: On October 06 2012 08:22 Shady Sands wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 06 2012 08:10 debears wrote: Why would you say you were vote switching among townies when you think I'm certain scum or shady is? Definite scumslip ##vote z-boson Wait, I didn't see this coming in. Wow. Yeah, everyone who is still on the fence about ZB: READ THE ABOVE TEXT PLEASE So when Debears makes this argument, Shady buys it. I don't see how a townie would buy this silly argument from what he earlier considered clear scum and now seemingly is his #2 suspect + Show Spoiler + On October 06 2012 13:44 Shady Sands wrote: If Z-Boson flips town, then Debears is probably the last scum. On October 06 2012 09:06 Shady Sands wrote: + Show Spoiler + Think for a second here, Debears. I've been pushing for a Z-Boson lynch since before anyone even brought him up as a candidate. I've been trying to lynch him for an entire votecycle. Ergo, isn't it completely logical for me to support arguments from other townies that support a ZB lynch? No, it's really not. Nothing makes me more paranoid than when people nods along with an argument I make that I later realize is stupid. Particularly when it comes from someone you've been suspicious of all game. Also, Shady is referring to Debears as one of the "other townies". Has he really gone to be that confident Boson is scum? Despite the case's flaws having been pointed out? Despite the roleclaim? And Djo getting NKd is all that is needed for him to 100% clear Boson and make Debears his #1 suspect? It doesn't add up. On October 06 2012 09:18 Shady Sands wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 06 2012 09:12 debears wrote: My argument was illogical. You jumped on it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=353315¤tpage=38#745 Finding scumslips in a "if-i-was-scum" statement is exactly how Ange found the first scumteam member in XXII. That moment pretty much saved the town in that game. That's why I agreed with you. This is just completely wrong and probably just a way to try to brush off his mistake. If you look up the thread he's linking to, you can see that Ange brings down Zorkmid because he makes an "if-I-was-town" argument, which is obviously scummy because a townie would not have to put himself in an "if-I-was-town" hypothetical. What Boson said is nothing like that. And then there's this, replying to Djo after he's dead using silly arguments seemingly designed to wash himself clean: On October 07 2012 05:30 Shady Sands wrote: + Show Spoiler + On October 06 2012 22:29 Djodref wrote: And now here is my analysis of Shady's filter ! His actions pretty much speak for themselves Please notice first how Corrosion's leaves the thread with a no-lynch vote. I think this move was advised by the mafia coach to let all options open for the replacement when he comes into the thread. So let's look at Shady's first real post. My comments are in red bold font in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 16:21 Shady Sands wrote: So at this point I have a moderate scum read on Alsn and strong town read on Darthpunk. Picks up Alsn as a target while distancing himself from the lynch I'm still not sold on Debears yet. Every time people push him as a lynch and everyone just nods along and agrees (this is based on a cursory ready through 30+ pages of filter late at night, so pardon me if I'm totally wrong about this), I get a wierd feeling in the pit of my stomach. Why? Because scum is already down one, there is almost zero chance they'd accede easily to a second consecutive bus. So if everyone is nodding along on Debears, and scum isn't going to roll over and bus again, then, WIFOM as this reasoning is, it doesn't seem reasonable that Debears should be scum. Alsn, however, feels scummy to me. Why?
The points add nothing new. He is clearly sheeping right now (as a lot of us did). I'm quite sure he did pick Alsn over Debears because he was afraid of Alsn potential in the future of the game. All four points are not damning guilt in and of themselves. But combined, they point a pretty compelling picture of a scum Alsn. Right now he's my strongest read and as such ##Vote Alsn However, he's only a moderate scumread. Depending on what happens between now and when I check in the thread in about 16 or 17 hours, I might change my mind. Distancing himself and disappear And comes back just to vote on debears with this post First of all, he doesn't give any kind of reasonable explanations for his vote. He is just sheeping on our previous cases on him which he was not buying yet, as he stated on his previous post. Plus, I'm sure now that I've found a serious scumslip in this post. I've checked all filters carefully and the few mentions of a cop role that I saw were referring to the game where DarthPunk was cop. Before him, nobody has ever mentioned nor imagined the possibility of a cop. At this time, he is the only one with me who know that we are playing a cop setup because he is the Godfather ! Please also notice how he wants me to check Omni or Remedy rather than Debears. He knows that Debears is town and doesn't want the cop to defend him the following day. Unfortunately, things don't go according to his plan during D3. Except me, nobody wants to lynch Debears anymore. And the focus is starting to get very close to him again (Omni and SS were the candidates for the second edition for the battle for the noose which never happened). He decided to confuse everybody by doing this I fall into his evil trap and town goes scatter. We need two consecutive blue claims to avoid a mislynch, SDM brain has exploded, Z-Boson is super angry. Debears and me are running in circles. But now it is the end, the last scum is going to fall. So, Shady, how about you concede ? Obviously since you're dead I can't really respond to you. First, I assumed the existence of a cop because I thought the N1 kill was stopped by a medic or JK. In all the newbie games I played in the past, every time there was a medic/jk, there was either a cop or mason(s) to go along with it. Second, how is me accusing Z-Boson in any way helpful to me surviving as the last scum? Think about it for a second: as the last scum, I want to be as non-controversial yet active as possible. Me accusing Z-Bo and then going AFK means that I accomplish neither. Why wouldn't I just lurk quietly or try and agree with everyone else on the popular lynch candidate (debears?) Moreover, if I was scum, and I was trying to mislynch Z-Bo, I should have started backing off as soon as you were wagoning me because then it would quickly become apparent I led a mislynch. But I haven't done any of this. Instead, I've stuck with a highly controversial scumread at the cost of what (little) towncred I had entering the game. Does this fit with what the last scum would do? Addressed earlier. Third: If I am GF, then why would I kill you? You wouldn't be able to check me, you'd be as useless as a hanging paperweight in that instance. Why wouldn't I kill someone who is held up as a confirmed townie, like Stutters, instead of you, who is on several lynch lists anyhow? That's BS, you can't leave a confirmed townie in the game for LYLO, you had to kill him. Fourth: now that you're dead I'm going to do a 180 on the Z-Bo case. I am not the medic, and I doubt a medic exists in this game. If there was a medic you'd be the obvious save and you wouldn't be dead. Hence Z-Bo's vet claim makes sense (notwithstanding him talking about how likely it was that there was a medic). Ergo, if Z-Bo is vet then the last scum is probably between me and debears. "Come hell and high water I'm not going to change my vote!", unless of course there's no medic and Djo gets killed (he already acknowledged he thinks a medic is unlikely when addressing Darth getting NK). This is just keeping up the Boson case charade that he never really believed in. Fifth: why Debears? The guy has been trying to agree with people without pushing substantial independent cases for two complete cycles now. First he wagons Alsn (admittedly, all of us did), then he pushes lists of candidates which have little analysis tied to any one suspect, then flip flops between me and Z-Bo in accusing each other with a weak "fakeclaim scumslip trap" which ironically is a pretty good piece of evidence against Z-Bo. Again, indirectly using the Boson case to show how Debears is much more scummy than him. Fifth: so now I'm going to urge everyone to consolidate on either me or debears to figure this out. If this means I have to vote for myself to get a lynch as opposed to a no-lynch, then so be it. But for now, I'm going to ##Vote debears since I think he's still a lot scummier than I am. So my SS lean is definitely stronger. At this point I doubt Remedy being the final scum, but I'd still like to go through Remedy's filter more carefully and I haven't looked into Corrosion's part of the filter yet. | ||
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I fucked up badly d3 and I think the only part in your analysis which is wrong is me being confident I was going to win :p GG town and great work Debears, you are indeed a hero for saving town. I found it weird Boson didn't pay much attention to your case because it was fucking great, but it seems he did. And a well played to you too, Boson. | ||
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On October 10 2012 04:34 Hapahauli wrote: GG! I think you still had a shot SDM - Remedy and Shady weren't 100% sold on you being scum yet. Yeah, probably a 10% shot at most or something. I feel kind of bad for giving in because it's kind of against the spirit of the game but honestly I'm quite glad it's over with. The Mafia QT is the 300 post long ramblings of a crazy person :p | ||
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On October 10 2012 04:42 Dandel Ion wrote: More like 2% imo  Most likely yeah :p | ||
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On October 10 2012 04:42 thrawn2112 wrote: Hmm. Well that's game! I didn't quite expect it to end like this so I don't have flavor prepared... I'll probably edit this post later when I think of something. obs qt scum qt Thanks to prplhz for hosting, to all the players for playing, and of course to marv and hapa for coaching Extra special thanks to SDM for being a boss and playing lone scum all game, as well as providing this gif: kush trying to blend in.Lol, I actually prepared a illustration of how d1 went down from my perspective . A true story based on my gifs in Mafia QT: ***Prelude*** Kush and I were born: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/304948_527100410638619_2080342859_n.jpg) ***Game starts*** Kush trying to blend in with the crowd: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/160sK.gif) Kush trying to put the pressure back on Darth: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://a.imageshack.us/img651/2436/vipob8.gif) Me being late on the ball with the Kush bus: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://www.2epix.com/pictures/0fd7e4f42a8b4b4ef33394d35212b13e.gif) Meanwhile in Portugal, Lesrah is trying to figure out the mechanics of the game: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc168/Monkeypox55/feedingfail.gif) Me sending in my n1 actions: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vl6CA.gif) ***Finale*** Me thinking I might pull off the win: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zw7RG.gif) | ||
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On October 10 2012 05:23 Z-BosoN wrote: But his no-lynch thing actually left us out of mylo. I honestly just took it as a lapse in his brain. I also didn't get the scum motivations for him saying "I wouldn't mind a no-lynch" in his post. When I read it, afterwards I just assumed that he went full retard for whatever reason. Why wouldn't a scum safely lynch his top read and make town go into mylo? I had no idea Stutters would get mod killed. Edit: If I knew that I would've pushed Debears. | ||
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Association with Kush: The way he talked to me stuck out. I don't think this by itself would hold much weight though. Overconfidence: This is something I didn't really think was much different from my XXVII meta (aside from with Kush). It's possible I just didn't realize it myself. Time and indecision This was most certainly a big scum tell. I kind of felt guilty and had to say that I would do stuff and I wouldn't do this as town. Not sure if this is a universal scum tell but for me it certainly is. Open-ended answers I feel like this was the only point Debears brought up that wasn't valid. Contributions I definitely contributed more with original cases in XXVII whereas in XXVIII I did a lot of sheeping. Big tell. The lynch or lack thereof Probably the biggest scum tell of them all. Debears should've pushed more on this in his case. Going to sleep Why on earth would I go to sleep 30 minutes before my #1 scum read is about to get killed and win us the game? I was legitimately exhausted having only slept 2 hours but that doesn't matter. Big brain fart that could've been pushed more. Overconfidence wrt Kush The best new point made by Boson, certainly true. Me bussing Kush after Stutters attacks him I was planning to bus Kush before Stutters made that case. I cursed that Stutters got there before me. I think any scum should bus Kush asap in that situation (but in a less obvious way than I did) because it's obvious he'll get lynched if not d1 most likely d2. I don't think Stutters deserved as much town cred because I think he'd go for the bus as well, but I didn't want to point it out because it'd remove my own town cred :p Why I fucked up at the d3 lynch 1) I had figured out Djo was cop and I wanted to NK him instead because that way it'd be more difficult to track his peeks and for some reason I thought pushing his lynch (which was what I'd do as townie) would make me look bad when he claims. That was obviously terrible reasoning. 2) When Omni was about to get mod killed, for whatever reason I thought I would look less suspect not pushing for an additional mislynch. So both fuck-up 1) and 2) was based on me deliberately not acting like I would've as townie because for some reason I thought it would make me look bad. Big fuck up. 3) It also crossed my mind that I wouldn't mind having Debears still in the game, but I don't think it was the main reason (I didn't think Stutters would get mod killed, that would've changed things). 4) I hadn't thought about lynching Debears so that part was true and I choose to stick to it, but the obvious reason I hadn't thought of lynching Debears is because I was scum :p In the end I fucked up in many ways, but I think I probably would've gotten away with it if it hadn't been for my huge d3 meltdown. | ||
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1. As scum in pressured situations, just do whatever you would've done as town and don't start fucking WIFOM yourself. 2. What Debears said: If something doesn't make any sense from a town perspective, it's scummy. You don't need to know the exact motivations. 3. If you're an aggressive townie (like DP and Boson in this game or me in XXVII), don't be suspicious of players who get in your way. The last thing I wanted was to in your way, be suspicious of the cockriders. In XXVII I got suspicious of Debears immediately jumping mine (and thrawn's) case on Sharrant, but I was so fucking proud of my Sharrant case that I decided not to care about it. The same thing happened early on in this game. | ||
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On October 10 2012 09:06 debears wrote: @SDM Hell of a game as scum. Yeah if you lynched me d3 you would've most likely had it in the bag. I was actually afk during the last 10-20 minutes of that lynch (or hour and 20) so I was fully expecting to be lynched. When it was you that didn't put in the final vote, everything just clicked cuz I know you are way better than that as town Also, the open ended answers thing was something I believed I notice in ver's XXX analysis. On the posts I quoted you just ran in a circle with your thought and didn't really make a statement. I might be wrong on this. Marv or Hapa any input on that point? I agree those type of posts are scummy as hell (putting a thought out there without having an opinion about it yourself, letting others draw the conclusions). I tried to stay away from making them because it's really tempting as scum. I just didn't think they were clear example of such posts. Well, the first one is, but making one such post over the span of the game isn't scummy imo. And yeah, thanks to the hosts and Hapa. If it hadn't been for Hapa I would've truly gone insane in the QT. Oh, and the biggest brain-fuck in the game for me was deciding on the n2 NK. I knew either Boson was vet or DP was medic, but I couldn't know which. Then Boson and DP starting talking about blue roles and I WIFOM my way into NKing DP, which was still a kind of a lucky shot. I also framed Boson n2 so if Djo would've gone ahead with his idea of checking him we would've had a funny d3 where Djo claims cop and peeking Boson scum and Boson counterclaiming vet. No idea what wuold've come out of that :p | ||
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On October 10 2012 09:34 Djodref wrote: I really enjoyed my first game so I would like to thanks everyone for playing, hosting and coaching. I'm a little disapointed that all my scum reads were wrong and that SDM picked me up as the cop during D3. I actually got you right for the wrong reason. It's actually hilarious how wrong I was while still getting it right. For various reasons I managed to narrow down possible cops to either you, Omni or Remedy. Basically you being so apologetic was why I started suspecting you over the others. After that, this is what went down in the QT (I'm mostly talking to myself here): Now I'm pretty sure Djo is cop. I've been sure before though. But Shady stumbles into the thread with a half-assed post and 30 mins later Djo is on his cock. Djo peeked Corrosion n1 and Omni n2. He alsos refuses to take a stance on Omni until he gets back. My prediction is that if Omni comes back, he'll buy his arguments straight off. If he doesn't, Djo doesn't have to look weird trying to defend him. Best case scenario is Omni modkilled and Shady lynched. Djo probably wouldn't claim and I can kill him n3. That would leave only one confirmed townie. Djo confirmed cop. Super-duper-confirm. He peeked Shady n1, Shady tells cop to peek Remedy or Omni n2, Djo peeks Omni. Now I can't decide on if I want to jump the Djo wagon. I'm 4000% sure he's cop. "Let's just assume that Omni, SS and me are town. Who is going to be your next scumread ? " Subtle cop is subtle. WTF he had checked Remedy I got the correct cop but none of the checks I thought he did matched xD | ||
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On October 10 2012 09:59 thrawn2112 wrote: sonic it was so hard watching you talk yourself into targeting the vet n1.. Lol, if that was hard to watch, what about my analysis afterwards? :p Trololol, Darth medic? Darth medic! Itchy scratchy, must kill Darth. Fuck me. I'm going crazy having no one to talk with. Darth must be medic or JK. Or did I just get jailkept? I wouldn't get a notification right? Holy mother of God. More likely Boson got saved. | ||
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On October 10 2012 10:09 Z-BosoN wrote: All your scum reads were wrong? Dude, look at me! I've successfully led lynches against 2 townies and a cop whilst thinking the scum was a town read all game long and not wanting to lynch the first scum in day one. The only correct read I've made wasn't even mine. Was good for me to realize that I was finding people scum for the wrong reasons, and what kind of things I should be looking for. Gonna tackle Liquid City now ;D Lol, I feel you. The only way I ever make a correct read is if I know everyone's alignment :p | ||
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On October 10 2012 13:30 Hapahauli wrote: But after talking about how he didn't mind a no-lynch, after the town actually no-lynches, he does a complete emotional 180: He posts this seconds after the no-lynch: he shouldn't mind this result judging from his previous postings, yet all of a sudden he cares? Scumtell here. This wasn't wrt the no-lynch, but to Stutters getting modkilled. I was completely surpised and I could've easily gotten modkilled myself here. | ||
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On October 10 2012 22:19 marvellosity wrote: I would like to note that SDM's bus of kush isn't as 'obvious' as it may seem in hindsight. Especially in newbie games, scum players have a really hard time bussing players decisively (or at all). And even in relation to non-newbie games, the early timing of the bus was impressive and something many scum players aren't capable of. Good scum play is often fast thinking and decisive, like that bus. The beautiful flip side to this is SDM's actions at the no-lynch where he was confused and indecisive and got caught for it. Yeah, my bus probably wasn't too bad. After I get caught doing something really stupid d3 it's easy to go back and make up a good scum rationale for everything I did. I feel like it's equal part logic and confirmation bias, kind of like how Debears and Boson interpreted my absence from the thread: 1) Debears used it to argue I was really scared 2) Boson used it to argue I was really confident They make the same observation, their analyses of it are polar opposite but their conclusions are still the same: I'm scum. In reality I never avoided the thread on purpose (at least not for the long stretches of time in question). | ||
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On October 11 2012 00:20 marvellosity wrote: Your play on kush could have been done by scum or towny; the problem for the other townies was that they couldn't see the scum perspective for a long time. Yeah, realizing they had handed out unjustified townie cred was crucial. Kind of like how I got townie cred in XXVI from voting Stutters instead of Cubu (flipped green) d1, without them even knowing the alignment of Stutters. | ||
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On October 11 2012 01:55 debears wrote: I wasn't (at least intentionally) saying that you were scared. I found it awkward (if you were town) to suddenly disappear after a giant amount of confusion without explaining why you did what you did, especially when Z-Bo called you out for bad town play. That's a fair observation actually. Maybe they're not as contradictory as I fist thought. It just pissed me off a little bit that all three times I was absent from the thread 20h+ it was used as an argument for me being scum, while whether I'm town or scum this will always happen. The timing when you pointed it out it was pretty legitimate though. | ||
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On October 11 2012 14:11 kushm4sta wrote: Sonics bust was real obvious. He even prefaced it with "trying to make a case on kush is like trying to kick open an already open door." Like he was trying to get in on that suspicion so bad even though he had nothing to add to it. ALSO IMO such a big scumtell was how he tried to nk the most obvious person d1. This is such a bad idea but SDM did it because it worked for him in 26 when he NK thrawn, the obvious town leader, N1. He did the same exact thing here, except it didn't work. Town should have noticed IMO. Really good job SDM even if you did cause my first loss Do you even realize I tried to kill Boson n1? The confirmed townie was Darth, if there was a medic or JK he'd save Darth. Boson was a sure success as long as Darth wasn't medic/JK or Boson vet. If anything was obvious about my bus it was you acting completely different towards me than you did towards others. At least that's the only thing anyone picked up on. | ||
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On October 11 2012 14:42 kushm4sta wrote: I don't think this is gloating. I dind't mean my loss was SDM's fault. Scum LVP definitely goes to me lol. Also i would have seen that NK and I would know it was SDM instantly I think. You really didn't follow the game, did you? Boson was vet. That's why no one died n1. And your conclusion after n1 would've been that I was scum because it was apparent scum tried to NK Darth (wrong) and I'm the only one dumb enough to try to NK Darth (wrong)? Great analysis. | ||
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