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On October 02 2012 18:10 DarthPunk wrote:
Also. We need to consolidate on Either Alsn or Debears. I am happy with either. Would mildly prefer a debears lynch. But I think both are scummy as shit.
So. Who are we going to Consolidate onto? Z- Boson? SDM? thoughts?
I'm leaning Alsn and I'm hoping to have time to explain why with a good amount of time to the lynch.
I agree about the consolidating, but I don't think we're in a hurry. With an early concensus it's easier for scum to blend in, whereas if we wait they'll potentially face the pressure of a bus or save situation (or wait until the last minute to make a decision, which is scummy looking).
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Shady's vote might be final.
On October 02 2012 16:21 Shady Sands wrote:
However, he's only a moderate scumread. Depending on what happens between now and when I check in the thread in about 16 or 17 hours, I might change my mind.
On October 02 2012 16:39 thrawn2112 wrote:
You have about 12 hours 20 minutes left to vote! Deadline is at 20:00 GMT (+00:00)
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Alsn, I encourage you to answer my post.
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On October 02 2012 21:03 Alsn wrote:
Your final question about easy outs. At the time I objected to the supposed 100% scum slip based on the idea that he could have used "townie" as a replacement word for player. Ironically, that's the exact same explanation he used himself, which probably added to my feeling that he was getting framed. At the time I was merely giving him the benefit of the doubt though. His reasons that anything else felt awkward was pretty silly but I must have dismissed it for when I finally saw his reasons, I was in full "this is too easy" mode.
Yeah, it is a bit ironic he used that exact reason. I was thinking maybe you had a better explanation to his slip, which would've made you less suspicious is my eyes. Downplaying the scum slip because you saw the easy out of him replacing person with townie while simultaneously claiming he's "writing up whatever is on his mind" seems weird to me.
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About the Debears case: My argument for wanting to lynch Alsn instead of Debears is that between the two of them, I think Debears' motivations are less clearly scummy.
While I feel like Debears has been acting like I would expect scum to act in a lot of the situations he’s been in, that doesn't make his motivations exclusively scummy. As an example, I've found Debears smoothly jumping Kush's wagon to be suspcious, but reading Debears' filter I don't end up convinced that's the case. For this to be suspicious, it requires the assumption that he had dropped his initial suspicions. Looking back at his posts around that time, I don't think that's clear:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote:
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Also, let the man defend himself instead of trying to rally everyone active behind your cause so early. If he is scummy, the votes will come.
Anyhow. I see two others who have suspiciously posted.
I'm pretty sure I've made similar arguments myself, that we gain more information by focusing on multiple suspects.
The same can be said for him dropping his suspicion on Djo. Throwing out light suspcicions early on in order to get things started isn't really anti-town. Looking back at his original case, he doesn't seem to push it that hard and honestly I don't find the inconsistency of dropping it as weird as a lot of others seem to:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote:@DjorefShow nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:51 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Nevermind you look just more confident to get a scum on D1 than me.
Regarding my plan, I think we need general directions to follow because of the majority lynch.
It is a way to gather everybody around 2-3 suspicious players and secure a lynch. I'm assuming everyone agree on a no-lynch to be stupid.
Djoref, I don't like that statement at all. That's the second post you bring up about the likelihood of lynching a townie d1. As town, you should never have that mentality. I would probably less likely to bring this up if you were a total nooby. However, you said you "know Kush's meta" which means you have some decent understanding of the game for a noob. By saying this, it seems that you are setting yourself an excuse to be indecisive later in the day when the lynch voting comes around. Alone, it isn't much. However, your other posts don't help. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:44 Djodref wrote:
@Darthpunk
Considering that we are likely to lynch a town on D1, don't you think it's a lesser wrong to get rid of someone inactive ?
Inactivity means no scumhunt and room to hide for the mafia...
After playing mafia last game, I feel like heavy lurking is a bad play for mafia. It puts too much pressure on you are as a scum. Instead, posting lightly without much substance is more mafia indicative. Yet again, I feel you are just looking like you are contributing without saying much. Especially when you already covered your thoughts in a previous post. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 08:36 Djodref wrote:Hello everybody ! About meThis is my first game ever on forum but I've been playing on SC2mafia and also irl. But I've been lurking on the TL Mafia forum for a while (so I know your meta kush^^) and I decided to join this newbie game. I'm also a French guy and I live in Korea so my english is not on top and it's going to ne difficult for me to be around at deadline (5.00 am KST). Lurker policyFrom the games I've seen, unless you have a golden scumslip on d1, it's very difficult to lynch a scum the very first day.
So I have no problem ending up voting for the most suspicious lurker at the end of the day. I define most suspicious lurker as a semi-lurker just trying to blend in.Day PlanI don't think to be able to be around for the first deadline so I would like to propose a day plan to secure a lynch as we are using a majority vote. First 24 hours to find lynch candidates while scumhunting and next 20 hours to decide who is the scummiest. Last 4 hours to consolidate the vote or switch to a lurker. Please discuss  Notice how you are just repeating points? It isn't helpful to us. Next post Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:09 Djodref wrote:@Kush thank you now I won't be nk Was it also a joke ? How can you be so sure you are not going to be NKed ? A two sentence, two question post. I don't like these. They are worthless. Also, this question came quite a bit later after darthpunk already was asking questions about joking. You seem to be sheeping onto darth's case against kush. Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 11:53 Djodref wrote:On September 28 2012 11:22 kushm4sta wrote:
Because the most active townie is tunneling me?
I would also like to hear you explanations about this specific part. I don't have a read on Darth on the moment considering he has only been hard tunneling you. As you said yourself you have a scummy meta so you are an easy target for early game to put pressure on. So what makes him so much town ? Yet again, this post is just repeating what darth is saying. Another question. I don't like this. Your early posts are indicative of a semi-active scum. Sheeping, question posts, and rehashing things already said multiple times.
Basically I think a lot Debears actions look scummy, but it's not farfetched to see various possible motivations in them. You can argue for a convergence of evidence type case, that when a lot of weaker evidence is pointing in the same direction, there’s often something to it. I think that’s a valid argument and barring scum slips like Kush’s that’s often how scum is found, but I don't think Debears’ story is as incoherent as Alsn’s. I think both have perfectly reasonable “scum stories”, but I find Debears' "town explanations" more believable.
If I look at Debears’ story, I can see reasonable explanations for his actions. If I look at Alsn’s story, I just don’t see how I’d ever reach his conclusions. He’s defending Kush with arguments I find weird and I think those can easily be the result of artificially searching them (scum) rather than just naturally reacting (town). Alsn is also more clearly contradicting himself in my opinion. Particularly the part where, despite his introduction post d1, he’s still not liking a Kush lynch on d2 (aka Act IV).
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On October 03 2012 01:54 Alsn wrote:
I just realised that him having corrosion as his second biggest scum read isn't necessarily contradictory. He could still be town and legitimately suspect that me and him are the scum team. :/
Bleh, I'll really take a break this time, I need to clear my head.
Yeah that's what I was thinking. I'm really dense right now after going through filters so I'm not sure I even fully understood your case.
I will say though, that just because the two of you are top scum reads doesn't mean everyone's convinced your both are scum. Like I said to Remedy, I think one of you + a lurker is viable and there are other options too but at this point that's mainly speculating.
I'm not even sure even sure that was a essential assumption for your argument.
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On October 03 2012 02:13 Alsn wrote:
No, the idea that I had that made me think he must be scum 100% is that I figured from my own point of view a metric fuckton of people think either me or debears or both are scummy. That being the case, I thought that if he was town genuinely suspecting myself of being scum instead of scum trying to desperately lynch someone else(I was the only other scummy target) that it meant him suspecting corrosion must have been a slip somehow and that it meant he must be scum. I'm still pretty sure he's scum, but I just don't think that particular fact is a guaranteed scum tell.
I'm still not sure if I get it. Shady is confirmed town because he didn't stick to Corrosions' ideas. Debears attacks Corrosion and thus he's scum. Even if your Corrosion/Shady argument is 100% accurate (quite the stretch), townies can still suspect townies.
Am I at least getting close?
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Is there anyone else in this thread who'd like to share their arguments? I need to leave in a little while and I might not be able to get back before deadline.
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Meh, now I feel really bad for Alsn. Although it didn't come across like that to me, he put in a fuckton of time to try to clear himself and being an assett. And one of the scums he was frustrated he couldn't find was the lurkiest of all lurkers. Besides I really enjoyed obsing XXVII with him.
Boson, I got a bit suspicious of Omni after my conversation with him last night. Haven't read his filter yet but I know there's at least one thing I'll bring up tomorrow, can't post it while on my phone.
Also, I don't know if you've played with Stutters before, but I played both XXVI and XXVII with him and he played very similar to now (as town). Obviously his style of playing town isn't hard to emulate as scum and I'm not excusing his lacking post, but as far as reads goes he's null for me atm.
Anyway, I'm out for the night.
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Alright, my suspicion of Omni. Yesterday I was questioning Omni for his reason jumping the Debears wagon, they just seemed really weak.
On October 02 2012 05:10 Omniscient4983 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2012 04:18 Sonic Death Monkey wrote:
I get really paranoid when people jump the Debears wagon with this kind of reasoning. He's making too many long many cases? Really, that's what confirms your suspicion? I'm not jumping the wagon--I've always thought Debears would be a candidate for lynch. There are many points against him, including the association / defense of Kush, townie reference, meta-based arguments, etc... the only thing as of late that erks me is all the different cases. It seems as if he's diverting attention / spreading chaos to make the case against him seem insignificant as compared to those of others. Z-BosoN made an extensive case against him--reference it if you'd like. The long cases don't so much confirm the suspicion as they do add to it.
First off, I don't know this "meta-based argument" you're going on? His other scum game isn't comprable neither is it really looking like his play here and we don't even have a town meta on him.
You also think his defense of Kush is suspicious, but when Remedy asks you on your town read on Corrosion, you say:
On October 02 2012 07:40 Omniscient4983 wrote:@RemedySCI'm sure a few people have mentioned this about Corrosion: the fact that he "attacked" Darth, or, as someone said, "cast a scummy shadow" on him. At this point, he doesn't totally trust Darth because it's d1, and Kush isn't obvious scum yet. Personally, it seems like he is trying to be objective about the issue at hand. He points out a totally plausible case. Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 04:29 corrosion wrote:One of the first things Darth did was to antagonize Kush: + Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 08:34 DarthPunk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2012 06:58 kushm4sta wrote:
@sonic
getting everyone's thoughts on lurker policy is important. Don't argue about it but share your views on the matter please.. No it's not. It is simply a mechanism to get the discussion going and allows scum to seem to participate and to potentially mislynch an inactive townie. Any more talk of policy will get you FoS'd. I'm thinking that this could easily be an attempt to start a fight that would result in derailing the thread. Later, he mentions that Kush is indeed suspicious but doesn't want to focus on one person like Darth is. I don't see it as scum-motivation or an attack on Darth. I see it as common sense.
Huh, so now you see this as common sense? Yet when Debears defends Kush and use these exact same arguments, you think it makes him look scummy?
Arguments:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 28 2012 11:34 debears wrote:
@Darthpunk
Do you have links to all your previous games?
I see validity in your points. However, I need to see how you've played before. You are coming off really strong really early.
On September 28 2012 13:24 debears wrote:
@darthpunk
You could also say that you are too convinced in your reasons. What I am cautious of at this point is that you stated directly before the game that you were after kush if he plays like he has in his past 3 games. I feel like that may be clouding your judgement in this situation.
Our main goal is to lynch mafia. Yes, kush has said some scummy things. However, I'm not gonna go around parading this early saying "kush is scum. Kush is scum. OMFG".
Defense:
+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 00:02 debears wrote:
2) Next, you say that I don’t attack DarthPunk. While I never attacked DarthPunk (he had good reasoning for suspecting kush), I did tell him to cool his jets and stop trying to convince others to his argument so early in the game, especially since kush was afk at the moment darth attacked kush. Now, because of his early hardcore tunnel, we are in a situation where the lynch is one sided. That doesn’t do really any good for us unless he is mafia. If he turns town, we gave the mafia a veil to hide under. Another townie side Z-Boson failed to address.
On October 02 2012 10:54 Omniscient4983 wrote:
I'll be reviewing the Alsn case tomorrow after my classes let out. I should be getting home just before lynch time, so I hope can get my thoughts in about Alsn. I'll consider changing my vote based upon these observations. Good night, gentlemen. See you at the gallows.
And then yesterday he just leaves off with this. Making empty promises as scum is really easy. You feel you need to because you want to make it yourself look useful but actually following up on them is hard. He hasn't had any thoughts on Alsn except that he's "being null or slightly scum". Considering there were a crapton of arguments against him and he was the focus of a lot of discussion that comes off as scummy. Having thoughts on cases against a townie is really difficult as scum, because you know they're false and all you can see is the poor townie's real intentions. It's easy just to avoid it. Add to that his thoughts on Deabears are wishy-washy at best, his scum hunting is kept to a minimum. That doesn't prevent him from handing out 4 town reads, the same kind of newbie scum mistake Debears made in XXVII and I still curse I didn't follow up on.
To sum up: Little to no scum hunting, inconsistent and wishy-washy reasoning for the scum reads he does make, likes giving out town reads.
##FOS Omni
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We've all been so focused on Alsn and Debears it's ridiculous. More on Omni, he's coming off suspicious as hell.
Nothing of value posted until this:
On September 29 2012 01:31 Omniscient4983 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On the whole Kush-scumslip ordeal... The game began, and people were stating their opinions about lurking lynching. DP notes that talk of this policy is simply a way to engage day 1 conversation, and that extended discussion of it can be suspicious. Kush then says: On September 28 2012 09:01 kushm4sta wrote:
Sorry but who appointed this asshole boss?
It's quite the arrogant remark, to be honest. DP may have been a little stern with his wording, but he certainly didn't come off as an "asshole boss" to me. In my opinion, Kush came on too strong regardless of his role--and i certainly don't like the play. People have mentioned his "scummy meta", but I don't read it as scum, just inconsiderate. This remark catapulted into the DP-Kush arguments. When Kush refers to DP as an "active townie", DP accuses him of a huge slip. On September 28 2012 11:27 DarthPunk wrote:
How do you know I am town? You are SCUM The accusation was simple reciprocation. Kush was strong with DP, and now DP is going hard on him with evidence. Fair enough. While the aforementioned scumslip could have been a townie error, I find Kush's response underwhelming, and still, a bit arrogant. On September 28 2012 20:12 kushm4sta wrote:
2. My supposed scumslip: huh? What else should I have called you? Player? Person? Maybe but to me those things sound awkward. Townie just seemed like the most non awkward word to use.
Innocent until proven guilty. That's how we do it in America bro.
To me, "The most active player; the most active person" don't seem awkward to me. The excuse is weak. And the "bro" at the end is telling of people with weak defenses that need to seem confident. Those are just my thoughts on Kush so far: Reckless, overconfident, and a little suspicious.
This happens after Kush's scum slip and after a lot of people had commented on it and all hell broke loose (Darth vs Debears, Darth vs Kush, Boson vs Alsn etc). Omni pops in simply restating what happen and making a very non-commital post. Makes a couple of passive attacks on Stutters and Debears.
Over an hour after his initial post he's asked to be more decisive and he responds with a short:
On September 29 2012 02:40 Omniscient4983 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +@ Z-BosoN
The narrative was intentional; both to reiterate events and to weave my thoughts into it.
My stance is pretty clear on Kush. He's definitely a possible lynch candidate in my eyes, but I wouldn't go as far as to vote him just yet.
Poof, he's gone again. Until this:
On September 29 2012 09:44 Omniscient4983 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Woosh, I get back from a little dinner and find Kush complaining about 2 votes and giving up on the world. From a gameplay perspective, I don't feel the whining is conveying any sort of innocence. The dramatization / apologizing is being overplayed. As debears put it, Kush is either: On September 29 2012 09:08 debears wrote:
1) Mafia trying to pity your way out of being lynched.
or
2) A little bitch
##Vote: Kush
At this point Kush is clearly getting lynched. He's qouting Debears (the guy he just claimed to have scum slipped and was suspicious of+ Show Spoiler + On October 02 2012 03:08 Omniscient4983 wrote:
I was suspicious of Debears ever since I questioned his claiming Djodref as town
He's still produced a grand total of zero scum reads, the first read he makes is a defense of Corrosion:
On September 30 2012 06:27 Omniscient4983 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 30 2012 06:09 Djodref wrote:
I would like people to focus more on corrosion than debears because corrosion tired to cast a scummy shadow on Darth while deabears looks more genuine.
I agree we should take the focus off of Debears, as Z-BosoN did a fair job of outlining the points against him. But why Corrosion? I realize he opposed the fact that Darth was so heavily attacking Kush, but I don't think he was casting him in a "scummy shadow". His case against Darth was based on nothing, really; just the fact that he thought pursuing the scum-slip and ignoring everyone else was a poor idea. I don't read Corrosion as scum at all. And Debears in no way looks more genuine than him.
Then his only original case in the game is attacking Remedy for making a case on Corrosion. Seems more of an attack to defend his town read, which of course is an easy case to make if you know Corrosion is town:
On September 30 2012 07:21 Omniscient4983 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I've been reading through RemedySC's filter. I found his last post in particular a bit odd. + Show Spoiler +On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote:
Let me just state the reasons that my vote is on Kush right now:
I'm sorry, but I don't believe these are reasons a town would choose to make a vote. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote:
1) I think his explanation of the slip was poor. If he had given a good explanation, I might have believed him. So the scum slip itself doesn't give you good reason to vote for him, but his poor defense does? A mafia making a scum slip could have the best explanation in the world. That doesn't exonerate them. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote:
2) I've been thinking about who would benefit if the result is a no-lynch. I'm thinking mafia is likely to benefit the most from a no-lynch.
So your second reason isn't even something that Kush has done. Wouldn't you also say that mafia would benefit from a mis-lynch more than from a no-lynch? Could you elaborate more on the bolded part, because you give no explanation as to how a mafia would benefit more from a no-lynch. On September 29 2012 21:59 corrosion wrote:
Right now, I think that there's more than a 25 % chance that Kush is scum. Therefore, I'm voting for him. I'm not sure if any of these points are original. I'm having trouble keeping up with the thread, because I tend to get hanged up in details.
You would think a town would want to be more than 25% sure the person they are voting for is scum. You don't even have any cases made against kush. No questions asked. Very vague reasons given...I find it odd that RSC was attacking Corrosion for voting Kush. At this point in the game, RSC had already cast his vote for Kush, and his best reason was: On September 29 2012 12:14 RemedySC wrote:
You [Kush] are not creating an ideal atmosphere.
RSC doesn't really have much motivation for voting Kush, other than the fact that he's disruptive to the gameplay environment. Yet, he picks apart Corrosion for voting him. I don't understand why he'd attack Corrosion's "poor reasons" at all. Take a look at the bolded part of the spoiler. He condemns Corrosion for not having made any cases again Kush, yet RSC himself hasn't done anything of the sort. RSC hasn't posted anything in regards to Kush being scum besides the "creating a bad atmosphere" and "not posting in a pro-town manner" argument. RSC doesn't seem to be any more sure than Corrosion is about lynching Kush, yet he is condemning Corrosion for having bad reasoning. His post seems hypocritical to me. @RemedySC Why, if you had voted Kush with such little evidence, were you outing Corrosion for doing something similar? You almost seemed as if you were defending Kush for no reason in this post. I'm curious, and would like to hear your opinion on things.
He's quickly backing off from this case though, not pushing for anymore information once Remedy responds claiming a misunderstanding. All good, everyone friends, Corrosion still town.
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Thread dead, wake up America.
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I don't know what to make of Debears post-d2 posts because it's putting me in total WIFOM mode and I should probably just ignore it.
But disregarding his last posts which obviously could be the result of leveling, is his case stronger than the one I just made? Maybe it's the excitement of novelty, but really? At least I'd say Debears play has been way more pro-town. He has his scummy-looking inconsistneies for sure, but at the same time he was aggressive d1. He tried making cases, get the thread started. He took attention because he was willing to, compare that to Omni who's just cruising by. At least I encourage you to pop out of the Debears bubble we've all been in to look at it.
Also, to Debears benefit, does scum really hang on this long when faced by pages and pages of accusations? I know I gave in quickly in XXVI because it seemed pointless. And look at Kush's reaction. That's the only examples I have myself from experience, maybe Debears is different. And maybe you can question if a townie would hang in this long. At least Alsn did.
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About the distancing from Alsn, I thought about it but it doesn't make sense. Omni made it clear he favored a Debears lynch long before it was clear Alsn would get lynched.
I think the better question is: why the complete disinterest in the Alsn case and who was getting lynched? Lesrah flipping red obviously means that if Omni is scum, neither Alsn nor Debears is. That would explain why scum would not be interested, it was a town/town wagon all along.
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On October 03 2012 21:12 Djodref wrote:
Hey Remedy !
As far as know, Omni didn't even vote for Alsn. I think he really wasn't in the thread because everyone else switched.
That was his point, he was distancing himself. I don't think it's valid for the reasons I explained.
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EBWOP: Oh, I see your point now Djo. I still don't think it explains the points I made. Do you got any thoughts on them?
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On October 03 2012 22:12 Djodref wrote:
@SDM
Last time I've checked Omni's filter, I had a slight town-read on him. I think he is a newbie town sheeping onto cases. To be honest, I think the same of the late corrosion, Remedy and Omni. I guess my filter has a little of the same flavor. So I easily sympathize with them and don't try to look more into it.
I think we are too gullible and take the cases from more experienced players as the truth itself. After that we are just reading the thread with confirmation bias so it seems natural and ok to jump on bandwagons. But at the same time, we don't want to admit that we are just sheeping so it ends up looking very washy-washy.
So when Omni says "I could reference Z-Boson case", I think he just has a strong town read on him and he is sheeping him.
Your points are correct nevertheless and I hope they are going to push Omni to shape up and produce better posts.
There has definitely been a lot of this going on considering all sheepers can't possibly be scum. The problem is I see a lurker circle jerk where everyone are friends and confirm eachothers townieness. Not through actually looking townie and contributing but because "he looks newbie just like me, probably newbie town". It would suck to lose the game just because we justify sheeping like this. You yourself have really upped both your activity and quality level since I made my case, so kudos.
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On October 03 2012 22:41 Djodref wrote:
I would like to propose a plan for tomorrow to promote discussion.
Cast enough vote on debears at the beginning of the day for him to be lynched.
Then start to discuss who to lynch next in the improbable case where he flips town.
If we come up with a better target than debears (I would say 80% mafia now for me because of his last posts and I'm less heated up), we can still switch our votes onto him.
By doing things this way, I hope that we can avoid to waste too much time on debears and lurkers to lurk even more.
What do you think about this plan ?
Shady and I are going to vote him up so we need 3 more guys. Who's in ?
What's the in getting a majority at the start of the day? If all who would agree on it has the same opinion by the end of the d3 Debears is getting lynched anyway and if we announce he's getting lynched already we're putting pressure of scum in case he's not.
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On October 03 2012 23:35 DarthPunk wrote:
I will vote debears if I am alive. alsn flipping town does not mean Debears is town. Although with Lesrah being red I could see scum Being a lurker. That being said I implore you to look at Shady and Djodref as they are the two other candidates that look scummiest IMO.
I was starting to get a town vibe from Djo but Shady, Remedy, Omni and Djo all needs to be looked into in detail. I'm having a sneaking suspicion that Omni won't be the only one who'll come off as scummy.
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EPT
