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On September 14 2012 11:45 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:43 Risen wrote:On September 14 2012 11:42 Keirathi wrote:
Maybe. I still think I would have been in a pretty good spot with Me vs Dirk+BL, though. You would have won easily b/c you don't kill Zeph who you're near confirmed status with. Assuming that you kill Zeph, though, I think you still have a fair shot at getting BL lynched. No. No, no, no. There's absolutely no way I could leave Zeph alive, and kill Dirkzor. Zeph might have been mildly suprised that marv died instead of me on n2, but there's no way he believes scum kills Dirkzor over me on night 3.
That's very WIFOM.
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On September 14 2012 11:51 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:48 Risen wrote:On September 14 2012 11:45 Keirathi wrote:On September 14 2012 11:43 Risen wrote:On September 14 2012 11:42 Keirathi wrote:
Maybe. I still think I would have been in a pretty good spot with Me vs Dirk+BL, though. You would have won easily b/c you don't kill Zeph who you're near confirmed status with. Assuming that you kill Zeph, though, I think you still have a fair shot at getting BL lynched. No. No, no, no. There's absolutely no way I could leave Zeph alive, and kill Dirkzor. Zeph might have been mildly suprised that marv died instead of me on n2, but there's no way he believes scum kills Dirkzor over me on night 3. That's very WIFOM. it's not just WIFOM. I won my newbie game (as town) by "wifoming" over night kills, and the thing was the argument was totally compelling. Night kill shit isn't just wifom.
You're right. Night kills usually wouldn't be WIFOM in my mind, unless it left only 3 people alive with one person confirmed town.
On September 14 2012 11:51 Keirathi wrote:
But it's the truth. The status quo was that one of the two of us would be killed. Zeph because he was confirmed, or me because everyone had a town read on me and was extremely active. Both of us living through the night would have immediately sent up red flags, IMO.
See above.
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On September 14 2012 11:58 Keirathi wrote:
Also that's the same reason I didn't choose to let Zeph's night 2 check go through. He had a parity check on BL night 1, and I was pretty sure that he was going to check him against me on night2 since he seemed to have the strongest town read on me. So with the check, he would have seen that BL and I were of different alignments.
But why would scum BL let the check go through when he already knew there was a check on him? I mean, he *COULD* have done it to frame me, but the most obvious answer is that a scum BL would have blocked the cop check. Yes, its WIFOM to make guesses about what scum would do, but it would have put me too high on the radar and got people looking harder at me than I would have wanted.
From Zeph's perspective: BL can't let any check go through b/c he knows it will return opposite to me. So now he has to RB me from now on. BL gets lynched. Well I had to RBd every night just in case I checked the person who happened to be scum.
How is this telling about you at all?
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Zeph just nominated you for best scum player Keir. I'm pretty sure if it was you/him/X in the end he would have been lynching X.
On September 14 2012 12:05 Acrofales wrote:
Lol. Two things (note, I still haven't read this game, just enjoying the discussion afterwards). Risen, I have been in 2 games with you in which you were prime lynch candidate. In both games I was scum and in both games I was scum and it was very easy to push a mislynch on you (GoT and SSMB mafia for the record). Given your reaction here, it happened again. When that happens once you might call it coincidence or "bad town", but when it happens 3 times you have to start thinking about your playstyle and what you can change (and also whether you want to... ) to not get mislynched.
Secondly, nightkills are often a lot of WIFOM, but sometimes it is just plainly suspicious if someone is left alive. There are some players who, if they live past N2 are almost certainly scum. There is nothing much wifom there, because they are simply too dangerous for scum to leave alive, so if they're alive past time X (without a damned good reason... and sometimes even with it), they are scum.
Fair enough. I'll change my play style then. I've always tried to operate under the assumption that posting a lot was pro-town. Get your thoughts out there for people to pick apart, and respond in a logical manner. I guess that's not how town operates on TL, so that's me needing to change and stop expecting TL town to change.
On September 14 2012 12:05 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:01 Risen wrote:On September 14 2012 10:55 Keirathi wrote:On September 14 2012 10:48 Risen wrote:
Don't even get me started on how everyone in this game has the reading comprehension of a 2 year old.
Keir you're awesome man. Haha, wait. Are you saying that I have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old, or that I am awesome? Or maybe an awesome 2 year old!? No, town has the reading comprehension of a 2 year old. You are just awesome for how you played this game. You took advantage of a stupid town by claiming you were RB'd, and while to any competent town in this setup it wouldn't be alignment indicative, it somehow confirmed you as town. On top of this you were the most active/useful person in the game after me, and if scum is posting more usefully than town, something is wrong. For some reason lynching the most active player seemed like a good idea to town, but then lynching the second most active didn't. I really thought it was you/prpl early on, but then v7 and dirk pulled their inane nonsense and I got all fucked up in the head. Add onto this Zeph with the question that somehow made me scum even though I answered it perfectly fine? This game came down to town being at the level of a trash can, prpl being about equally as bad, and you doing very well. I'd like to see you as scum against some semi-competent townies, I think you'd still do just as well as you did this game. hold on now. I apologized and all but Show nested quote +From Zephirdd's post
"Why do you think prplhz is scum? Tell us chronologically."
I never actually thought he was scum, he was just the scummiest guy in a thread of like 3 posters so he got the ball rolling. His reaction has not sat very well with me, but I really don't like your first sentence in that other post about me being town or at least playing to town meta or something. It just feels really superfluous to the point you were trying to make. Is not a fucking good answer. It's terrible. When you are telling something chronologically, you are supposed to create a list of things and order by time of occurrence. You just mentioned that you never thought the guy was scum and even then he was the scummiest guy in the thread. I don't even know why I apologized. I remember reading this partially and you saying "but I answered chronologically" and me thinking "oh maybe he did". Fuck no, you talked about your first post and threw some suspicion to my post. If I ended up having more time during the last 24 hours, I'd probably pick someone else to lynch(or try), but you can't say you played this perfectly.
Not only did I answer chronologically, when it turned out no one could read, I made the list you want later in the thread here
On September 08 2012 02:27 Risen wrote:
For clarity so scum zeph can't muddy the waters even more
Risen, chronologically tell the thread why you find prpl scummy
1)I never thought he was scum in my first post, he was just the scummiest of the posters before me so I chose him.
2) his actions since then have been scummy
What more do you want? It was early on in day 1. That's all I had to go on. You want more? There wasn't any more. That's why I felt he was most likely to be scum. So, chronologically, I came in with a nonsense case b/c prpl had been the "scummiest" in thread so far, and it was his response to that early case that made me feel he was scum. Anything missing there? Seems pretty chronological to me. Then again, I think the definition of chronological means ordered by time occuring, maybe you think something else? I talked about my first post and then I also expanded on why I felt he was scum now when I said his response was scummy. You see, I gave you why I made my first post, and then folowed that with my reasoning for finding him scummy AFTER my first post. To me, that goes then > after then. That looks pretty chronological to me. So if you'd like to go actually read the sentence AFTER the one where I explain my first post, instead of just stopping at the first sentence that would be great.
Anyways, I don't see why you find me thinking you're sketch after that as scummy. I don't know your alignment, how am I supposed to know your motives for posting anything. I had every right to come after you for talking about my meta and stuff. I was referencing this post with that sentence, by the way.
On September 06 2012 06:56 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 06:43 Zephirdd wrote:
Risen is not scum, or at least he doesn't look scum based on meta. I could tell you why, but it's information about an ongoing game. Suffice to say he flipped scum there and he looked very differently from these initial three posts.
On the other hand, a rule that seems to work a lot is Kenpachi Rule extended: everytime someone cares about some bullshit from the first post of a player, he's scum.
This applies for both prplhz and Risen here, but only one of them is an OMGUS.
That was quick huh
##vote prplhz Something to look at later. Why not just say I don't look scum based off meta? Scummy brosephemon.
Edit: In case it isn't clear... To me, and anyone else reading that, it looks like you somehow know I'm town. How would a townie know this? Only scum know everyone's alignment. You follow your claim that I'm not scum (a definite statement) with a small justification that leaves you open to "change your mind" later. Also, you hadn't claimed cop, so to me you were the same as anyone else. After the cop claim you would have been confirmed town in my mind.
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I'm still confused as to what I said that was scummy to people. No townie ever actually said anything other than "oh well his posting is scummy" that I didn't respond to.
Edit: I also think this is why I was pretty upset with town this game. No one would actually talk to me and let me defend myself, and when I did defend myself no one actually backed up their votes on me. From my perspective, it just looks like a lazy town filled with sheeple.
Double Edit: I also like how everyone in QT thought I was clearly town.
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On September 14 2012 12:48 Keirathi wrote:Yea, well they thought I was too  Objectively, its things like the post where you gave the person you had a scum read on (prplhz) a way to be appear townie again. What's the town motivation for doing that? If you have a hunch that a person is scum, why would you ever tell them exactly what they needed to do to get back in your good graces? Granted, there's not much scum motivation for it, either, but as a scum you would already know that they are townie, so when it gets late game and someone questions why you don't still have a scum read on them, you can say "He started posting better and scumhunting!". Also, all your WIFOM arguments against marv felt really out of place. Like, what purpose did they serve? You basically just used a bunch of WIFOM about playing as scum together to justify a "I'm paranoid of marv" read.
Because I've been in his position as town before and I wanted him to know that if he could find a way to start posting logically it would help him a lot. The WIFOM w/ marv stuff was probably a mistake, I agree. Is that indicative of alignment, though?
Edit: BH said it better than me.
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On September 14 2012 13:16 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:59 Blazinghand wrote:On September 14 2012 12:48 Keirathi wrote:Yea, well they thought I was too Objectively, its things like the post where you gave the person you had a scum read on (prplhz) a way to be appear townie again. What's the town motivation for doing that? If you have a hunch that a person is scum, why would you ever tell them exactly what they needed to do to get back in your good graces? Granted, there's not much scum motivation for it, either, but as a scum you would already know that they are townie, so when it gets late game and someone questions why you don't still have a scum read on them, you can say "He started posting better and scumhunting!". I actually typically advise people I attack on how to appear townie as a town player. Basically, if it's reasonable advice (write cases, give reads, etc) it forces them to either follow it or explain why they're not if your attack is good. The reason you do this is twofold: 1) no matter how sure you are you always want to give targets a chance to prove themselves townie and 2) it either forces scum to come out and engage you by taking certain actions, or for them to ignore your advice and look bad for it. Telling people what they can do to be more townie is actually a good way to push town in the right direction and make scum uncomfortable playing an anti-town game. The main reason the Risen lynch happened is that there was no clear counter-wagon. I understand your point. But look at marv's pressure vote against me on day1 for saying "I think" etc a bunch. He told me exactly what I needed to do to buy some free BotD. Had he not said that, I probably would have continued, and maybe there would have been something to make an actual case against at some point because he would have been scrutinizing me harder. Granted, that situation is a little different because I always post really iwshy-washy on day1 and get firmer as the game goes on, but the point still stands. You can force people into playing your game and give yourself a better read of them in better ways, IMO. Ask them questions, ask for opinions, etc etc. If it works for you, thats fine. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't like it.
The point here, is that it isn't alignment indicative. Look at my case on you here
+ Show Spoiler +On September 07 2012 02:49 Risen wrote:Keirathi your case is pretty bad man. I wish I had the patience to do the segmented response thing, but I'll just be responding to your points raised. 1) Keirathi should know discussion is the most important thing to get started on. Most games it comes in the form of setup discussion or a bad case. What other kind of case is there so early on in the day? You find something particularly disturbing in someone's initial post, and then you pressure them on it. Their response to said pressure, and the thread's response can be especially telling. Like calling someone out for getting discussion started. Then making inane points about how they're giving their "scum read" ways out.2) I'm giving a potential towny a way to come back. Guess what all scum have as a weakness, and inability to truly hunt scum, because they're just outing their teammates at that point. What does this force scum to do? Kind of like trying to force my lack of pressure on someone, who could just as easily be town as scum, as a sign of being scum. Lack of pressuring someone isn't a sign of being scum, it's a smokescreen used to give the appearance of scumhunting. 3)Not remembering a game I played with Marv where we were on different teams (note the I think in what you're calling me out on) is not a scumtell, nor is it misrepresentation of fact. I already answered where marv could potentially be bussing me, and trying to paint the use of bus instead of wagon as a scumtell is a sign of someone trying to push something that just isn't there.##unvote
##vote KeirathiSo maybe getting the game rolling wasn't such a bad idea  Prplhz THIS is how you respond to someone who has made a case on you if you genuinely think they're scum. Don't use OMGUS unless you're trying to convey that they wouldn't usually be this horrible, but are using being bad as a screen.
Regardless of someone telling you to step back, post logically, etc it's still a case that can be made. In the absence of scummy town people, scum have to slip up no matter what, so helping people out is pro-town imo.
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Man look at that case on you Keir. I'm willing to vote for you right now man. I wish other people had :<
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On September 14 2012 13:27 Zephirdd wrote:everything looks easy and obvious on hindsight tho
I know, right? XD
I really wish Dirk hadn't come in like he did...
Edit: Also, of the 4 votes on me early, both scum were on me. I mean shit, at one point it was 2 prpl, 2 me. How on earth did people justify voting me over prpl when the vote count was like that. His play was way, WAY more scummy than mine early on. I didn't even flip my shit until later on in the thread when everyone was already on me.
Double Edit: I mean gosh, look at his vote onto Keir and the reasoning behind it then his swap back to me. I pointed these things out in thread. AWRnfkj 4awngflwngflknawlgnktlawnktglk
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On September 14 2012 13:36 Keirathi wrote:
@BH: It's really easy to say that, but then why do people like Marv win every game as scum? Does he just get good luck with setups and terrible towns every time that never pressured him? No, he wins because he can pretend to be a townie without all that much trouble.
Do I think my play was perfect? Hell no. It was my first scum game. But I honestly feel like I did a pretty decent job of pretending to be a townie, because I did play this game with the mindset of a townie. Which, as odd as it is, is exactly what a good scum's mindset should be.
I think this statement speaks more to the quality of towns on TL than anything else. Not even saying that marv isn't brilliant as scum.
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On September 14 2012 13:38 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 13:33 Acrofales wrote:@Risen: to give specific advise I would have to actually read this game and I don't have time right now. What I remember tripped you up in SMBB was that you did post a lot, but every post had a different opinion. iGrok was scum, no Grush, no iGrok after all, together with Tali. By the time you actually got it right, it was easy to dismiss as "throwing blame around to see where it'll stick" and paint you as scum. Hell, I am not even sure anybody was actually convinced you were scum by the time you died in that game, but you had no credibility either way. So yes, on the one hand it's a good idea to post a lot and keep your ideas flowing. On the other hand, you mustn't want to post every little theory you come up with. Write them down for yourself to keep them in mind and gather evidence for and against. Then make a post about it when you are more convinced which hypothesis is true, rather than posting them all. But this is all based on a different game and I don't know if it's remotely similar to what happened here. In GoT mafia your problem was mainly going all nuts at WBG  Also, yea you did that a lot. By the time you died, you had literally accused 6 out of the 8 people of being scum, and all of them after their vote for you (except for prplhz).
Yeah I'll look into that when playing in the future. It's just when people started voting for me they ALL looked scummy to me b/c their reasoning was so horrible 
I don't know how to not point out scummy behavior...
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On September 14 2012 14:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2012 01:04 Risen wrote:
Hmm, I can't tell if Marvel is actually an upset towny (though why would he be, from an outsiders perspective look at all the juicy posting that has occured!) or scum trying to make the appearance of bussing me. I think I've only ever played with him as "scum", and he's always posted a lot less. He knows this, though, and he's a smart cookie. Is he posting more now BECAUSE he knows I'm in this game and since he's scum he can' tplay like he did, or is it b/c he's genuinely town?
Verdict: WIFOM as fuck. At least with this much posting if he is scum it won't come down to something retarded like in Death Note (ITSMARVELBABYYY YEAHHHHH) Show nested quote +Risen wrote:
Well that's going to go down as one of the dumbest things a towny has ever done if I get lynched off that rofl.
I love you I think I made that post jokingly, though. I didn't think anyone would possibly want to lynch me lol.
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Mannnn, when I was writing that wifom stuff I just wanted town to be aware of how slippy marv could be. I guess I should have just relied on people to know that, or maybe went about saying it in a different manner, but I didn't trust anyone else to actually think T_T
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What justifies Dirk being best townie? He's the only real reason the lynch on me got off the ground.
I think that honor belongs to Ange.
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On September 14 2012 14:23 EchelonTee wrote:
Ange, you're always a good nightkill in my book :D
Agreed. I'm really afraid of ever running into a scum ange b/c I love the way he played this game. I called him in the obs QT as the n1 kill b/c he was playing too smart.
Edit: he is apparently a she. My b yo.
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On September 14 2012 14:26 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 14:22 Risen wrote:
What justifies Dirk being best townie? He's the only real reason the lynch on me got off the ground.
I think that honor belongs to Ange. No one ever thought of lynching Dirkzor except a rampaging Bluelightz, and this is even though he survived until LYLO. That's really what you gotta do as townie, make sure no one is on your back.Ange777 didn't do anything this game at all since she was lynched on day1. I'm sure there would have been some more from her later (she even admits this after she died in the "man, i was just getting time for this game"-post). I mean she wasn't bad or anything but she simply wasn't alive enough to be any good.
I disagree. I always thought the objective as town was to find scum, something Dirk did 0 of this game.
Edit: In fact, the thing that made me so convinced of Dirk being scum was that he ignored prpl, found Keir scummy and did nothing about it not even really building a case, and then voted me for reasons that didn't even make sense.
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On September 14 2012 14:30 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 14:27 Risen wrote:On September 14 2012 14:26 prplhz wrote:On September 14 2012 14:22 Risen wrote:
What justifies Dirk being best townie? He's the only real reason the lynch on me got off the ground.
I think that honor belongs to Ange. No one ever thought of lynching Dirkzor except a rampaging Bluelightz, and this is even though he survived until LYLO. That's really what you gotta do as townie, make sure no one is on your back.Ange777 didn't do anything this game at all since she was lynched on day1. I'm sure there would have been some more from her later (she even admits this after she died in the "man, i was just getting time for this game"-post). I mean she wasn't bad or anything but she simply wasn't alive enough to be any good. I disagree. I always thought the objective as town was to find scum, something Dirk did 0 of this game. Establishing yourself as town is at least almost as important as finding scum, if not as important. Look at Newbie XXVI that just ended. Scum crumbled because there was a townie circle forming and one guy picked up that because of it, the 3 scum were obvious. Granted, that only happened because of some poor NKs, but still!
I don't see how Dirk established himself as town. If I was any of the other players he would have been my d2 lynch choice, and then my d3 lynch choice.
Edit: Prpl how on earth was dirk established as a townie? He was scummier than you, in my opinion, and he ended up being town lol
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On September 14 2012 14:32 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 14:30 Keirathi wrote:On September 14 2012 14:27 Risen wrote:On September 14 2012 14:26 prplhz wrote:On September 14 2012 14:22 Risen wrote:
What justifies Dirk being best townie? He's the only real reason the lynch on me got off the ground.
I think that honor belongs to Ange. No one ever thought of lynching Dirkzor except a rampaging Bluelightz, and this is even though he survived until LYLO. That's really what you gotta do as townie, make sure no one is on your back.Ange777 didn't do anything this game at all since she was lynched on day1. I'm sure there would have been some more from her later (she even admits this after she died in the "man, i was just getting time for this game"-post). I mean she wasn't bad or anything but she simply wasn't alive enough to be any good. I disagree. I always thought the objective as town was to find scum, something Dirk did 0 of this game. Establishing yourself as town is at least almost as important as finding scum, if not as important. Look at Newbie XXVI that just ended. Scum crumbled because there was a townie circle forming and one guy picked up that because of it, the 3 scum were obvious. Granted, that only happened because of some poor NKs, but still! I don't see how Dirk established himself as town. If I was any of the other players he would have been my d2 lynch choice, and then my d3 lynch choice. Edit: Prpl how on earth was dirk established as a townie? He was scummier than you, in my opinion, and he ended up being town lol
Quoting b/c I edited it and someone came in and posted after the edit happened oops :S
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I would like to know how there was such a huge disconnect between the people in the QT and the people in the game in terms of whether I was town or not, then :/
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On September 14 2012 14:35 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 14:32 Risen wrote:On September 14 2012 14:30 Keirathi wrote:On September 14 2012 14:27 Risen wrote:On September 14 2012 14:26 prplhz wrote:On September 14 2012 14:22 Risen wrote:
What justifies Dirk being best townie? He's the only real reason the lynch on me got off the ground.
I think that honor belongs to Ange. No one ever thought of lynching Dirkzor except a rampaging Bluelightz, and this is even though he survived until LYLO. That's really what you gotta do as townie, make sure no one is on your back.Ange777 didn't do anything this game at all since she was lynched on day1. I'm sure there would have been some more from her later (she even admits this after she died in the "man, i was just getting time for this game"-post). I mean she wasn't bad or anything but she simply wasn't alive enough to be any good. I disagree. I always thought the objective as town was to find scum, something Dirk did 0 of this game. Establishing yourself as town is at least almost as important as finding scum, if not as important. Look at Newbie XXVI that just ended. Scum crumbled because there was a townie circle forming and one guy picked up that because of it, the 3 scum were obvious. Granted, that only happened because of some poor NKs, but still! I don't see how Dirk established himself as town. If I was any of the other players he would have been my d2 lynch choice, and then my d3 lynch choice. But no one else found him scummy (except a scum). Ange777 figuratively had no impact on this game. I'm sure she would have done well if she had been allowed to survive past night1 and had time to show her worth but unfortunately (for her) she was an underrated townie and that spells doom when there is a medic around.
What are you talking about? There was absolutely 0 scum hunting after day 1. Day 2 was lynch the liar, and day 3 was lynch the cop vote. If there had actually been scum hunting day 2 and day 3 I think Dirk would have showed up easily as a lynch target.
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EPT
