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On September 14 2012 11:01 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 10:55 Keirathi wrote:On September 14 2012 10:48 Risen wrote:
Don't even get me started on how everyone in this game has the reading comprehension of a 2 year old.
Keir you're awesome man. Haha, wait. Are you saying that I have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old, or that I am awesome? Or maybe an awesome 2 year old!? No, town has the reading comprehension of a 2 year old. You are just awesome for how you played this game. You took advantage of a stupid town by claiming you were RB'd, and while to any competent town in this setup it wouldn't be alignment indicative, it somehow confirmed you as town. On top of this you were the most active/useful person in the game after me, and if scum is posting more usefully than town, something is wrong. For some reason lynching the most active player seemed like a good idea to town, but then lynching the second most active didn't. I really thought it was you/prpl early on, but then v7 and dirk pulled their inane nonsense and I got all fucked up in the head. Add onto this Zeph with the question that somehow made me scum even though I answered it perfectly fine? This game came down to town being at the level of a trash can, prpl being about equally as bad, and you doing very well. I'd like to see you as scum against some semi-competent townies, I think you'd still do just as well as you did this game.
hold on now. I apologized and all but
From Zephirdd's post
"Why do you think prplhz is scum? Tell us chronologically."
I never actually thought he was scum, he was just the scummiest guy in a thread of like 3 posters so he got the ball rolling. His reaction has not sat very well with me, but I really don't like your first sentence in that other post about me being town or at least playing to town meta or something. It just feels really superfluous to the point you were trying to make.
Is not a fucking good answer. It's terrible. When you are telling something chronologically, you are supposed to create a list of things and order by time of occurrence. You just mentioned that you never thought the guy was scum and even then he was the scummiest guy in the thread.
I don't even know why I apologized. I remember reading this partially and you saying "but I answered chronologically" and me thinking "oh maybe he did". Fuck no, you talked about your first post and threw some suspicion to my post.
If I ended up having more time during the last 24 hours, I'd probably pick someone else to lynch(or try), but you can't say you played this perfectly.
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Lol. Two things (note, I still haven't read this game, just enjoying the discussion afterwards). Risen, I have been in 2 games with you in which you were prime lynch candidate. In both games I was scum and in both games I was scum and it was very easy to push a mislynch on you (GoT and SSMB mafia for the record). Given your reaction here, it happened again. When that happens once you might call it coincidence or "bad town", but when it happens 3 times you have to start thinking about your playstyle and what you can change (and also whether you want to... ) to not get mislynched.
Secondly, nightkills are often a lot of WIFOM, but sometimes it is just plainly suspicious if someone is left alive. There are some players who, if they live past N2 are almost certainly scum. There is nothing much wifom there, because they are simply too dangerous for scum to leave alive, so if they're alive past time X (without a damned good reason... and sometimes even with it), they are scum.
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On September 14 2012 11:58 Keirathi wrote:
Also that's the same reason I didn't choose to let Zeph's night 2 check go through. He had a parity check on BL night 1, and I was pretty sure that he was going to check him against me on night2 since he seemed to have the strongest town read on me. So with the check, he would have seen that BL and I were of different alignments.
But why would scum BL let the check go through when he already knew there was a check on him? I mean, he *COULD* have done it to frame me, but the most obvious answer is that a scum BL would have blocked the cop check. Yes, its WIFOM to make guesses about what scum would do, but it would have put me too high on the radar and got people looking harder at me than I would have wanted.
I actually checked prplhz night 2. No reason to not roleblock me though.
I should have realized you were scum when you didn't die. marv wasn't confirmed at all, why the fuck would someone who is supposedly confirmed survive over him? That thought went through my head, and I washed it with "that's just scum trying to mess with me".
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I meant I had the wild idea to let Zeph's check go through night 2 only, then kill him night 3 if somehow there was a night 3.
That would have given Zeph a parity difference between me and BL in LYLO.
Obviously, Zeph was 100% expected to either be blocked or killed. If neither happened, he would wonder why the scum let the check go through.
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On September 14 2012 12:07 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:58 Keirathi wrote:
Also that's the same reason I didn't choose to let Zeph's night 2 check go through. He had a parity check on BL night 1, and I was pretty sure that he was going to check him against me on night2 since he seemed to have the strongest town read on me. So with the check, he would have seen that BL and I were of different alignments.
But why would scum BL let the check go through when he already knew there was a check on him? I mean, he *COULD* have done it to frame me, but the most obvious answer is that a scum BL would have blocked the cop check. Yes, its WIFOM to make guesses about what scum would do, but it would have put me too high on the radar and got people looking harder at me than I would have wanted. I actually checked prplhz night 2. No reason to not roleblock me though. I should have realized you were scum when you didn't die. marv wasn't confirmed at all, why the fuck would someone who is supposedly confirmed survive over him? That thought went through my head, and I washed it with "that's just scum trying to mess with me".
If you tried to use that as an argument against me, I would have been able to shut it down I think. Who would the mafia rather fight against in a LYLO situation: a well respected scumhunter with generally strong town play and really good arguer, or me, a relative newbie?
And also, I was in no way confirmed. People kept acting like I was, for some reason, but it was just a RB claim on night 1. That maybe could have bought me BotD for a day, but in LYLO it should have been treated as basically never happening.
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On September 14 2012 12:10 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:07 Zephirdd wrote:On September 14 2012 11:58 Keirathi wrote:
Also that's the same reason I didn't choose to let Zeph's night 2 check go through. He had a parity check on BL night 1, and I was pretty sure that he was going to check him against me on night2 since he seemed to have the strongest town read on me. So with the check, he would have seen that BL and I were of different alignments.
But why would scum BL let the check go through when he already knew there was a check on him? I mean, he *COULD* have done it to frame me, but the most obvious answer is that a scum BL would have blocked the cop check. Yes, its WIFOM to make guesses about what scum would do, but it would have put me too high on the radar and got people looking harder at me than I would have wanted. I actually checked prplhz night 2. No reason to not roleblock me though. I should have realized you were scum when you didn't die. marv wasn't confirmed at all, why the fuck would someone who is supposedly confirmed survive over him? That thought went through my head, and I washed it with "that's just scum trying to mess with me". If you tried to use that as an argument against me, I would have been able to shut it down I think. Who would the mafia rather fight against in a LYLO situation: a well respected scumhunter with generally strong town play and really good arguer, or me, a relative newbie?
I don't know how that would go, but as much as marv is a respected scum hunter, he is no where near the worth of a confirmed townie when the confirmed cop was paranoid of him earlier and he's known for also being pretty good as scum.
soo yeah, I should've thought that through 
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On September 14 2012 12:13 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:10 Keirathi wrote:On September 14 2012 12:07 Zephirdd wrote:On September 14 2012 11:58 Keirathi wrote:
Also that's the same reason I didn't choose to let Zeph's night 2 check go through. He had a parity check on BL night 1, and I was pretty sure that he was going to check him against me on night2 since he seemed to have the strongest town read on me. So with the check, he would have seen that BL and I were of different alignments.
But why would scum BL let the check go through when he already knew there was a check on him? I mean, he *COULD* have done it to frame me, but the most obvious answer is that a scum BL would have blocked the cop check. Yes, its WIFOM to make guesses about what scum would do, but it would have put me too high on the radar and got people looking harder at me than I would have wanted. I actually checked prplhz night 2. No reason to not roleblock me though. I should have realized you were scum when you didn't die. marv wasn't confirmed at all, why the fuck would someone who is supposedly confirmed survive over him? That thought went through my head, and I washed it with "that's just scum trying to mess with me". If you tried to use that as an argument against me, I would have been able to shut it down I think. Who would the mafia rather fight against in a LYLO situation: a well respected scumhunter with generally strong town play and really good arguer, or me, a relative newbie? I don't know how that would go, but as much as marv is a respected scum hunter, he is no where near the worth of a confirmed townie when the confirmed cop was paranoid of him earlier and he's known for also being pretty good as scum. soo yeah, I should've thought that through
I think you would have a hard time finding any scum team in the last 2-3 months that would have wanted to leave marv alive any longer than was absolutely necessary He basically destroyed the scum team in Mad Men, lol.
The only reason he didn't die night 1 was because I expected him to be protected, and I still think he would have been with almost anyone else as the medic. I know if I was town, I would have protected him. I made that mistake in dwarfs, not protecting him because I thought I had a read on him being scum. He might not have been the towniest person alive, but with a 78% chance of being town, its not worth the risk of losing him.
There's a reason he dies on n1 or n2 in almost every game
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On September 14 2012 12:17 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:13 Zephirdd wrote:On September 14 2012 12:10 Keirathi wrote:On September 14 2012 12:07 Zephirdd wrote:On September 14 2012 11:58 Keirathi wrote:
Also that's the same reason I didn't choose to let Zeph's night 2 check go through. He had a parity check on BL night 1, and I was pretty sure that he was going to check him against me on night2 since he seemed to have the strongest town read on me. So with the check, he would have seen that BL and I were of different alignments.
But why would scum BL let the check go through when he already knew there was a check on him? I mean, he *COULD* have done it to frame me, but the most obvious answer is that a scum BL would have blocked the cop check. Yes, its WIFOM to make guesses about what scum would do, but it would have put me too high on the radar and got people looking harder at me than I would have wanted. I actually checked prplhz night 2. No reason to not roleblock me though. I should have realized you were scum when you didn't die. marv wasn't confirmed at all, why the fuck would someone who is supposedly confirmed survive over him? That thought went through my head, and I washed it with "that's just scum trying to mess with me". If you tried to use that as an argument against me, I would have been able to shut it down I think. Who would the mafia rather fight against in a LYLO situation: a well respected scumhunter with generally strong town play and really good arguer, or me, a relative newbie? I don't know how that would go, but as much as marv is a respected scum hunter, he is no where near the worth of a confirmed townie when the confirmed cop was paranoid of him earlier and he's known for also being pretty good as scum. soo yeah, I should've thought that through I think you would have a hard time finding any scum team in the last 2-3 months that would have wanted to leave marv alive any longer than was absolutely necessary He basically destroyed the scum team in Mad Men, lol. The only reason he didn't die night 1 was because I expected him to be protected, and I still think he would have been with almost anyone else as the medic. I know if I was town, I would have protected him. I made that mistake in dwarfs, not protecting him because I thought I had a read on him being scum. There's a reason he dies on n1 or n2 in almost every game
In this setup the doctor can't save the same person twice in a row, so you might want to gamble, not save him N1, and save him N2 so he's alive at LYLO
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Yes, that's true. But its a gamble and WIFOM'ing around what the mafia is going to do
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Zeph just nominated you for best scum player Keir. I'm pretty sure if it was you/him/X in the end he would have been lynching X.
On September 14 2012 12:05 Acrofales wrote:
Lol. Two things (note, I still haven't read this game, just enjoying the discussion afterwards). Risen, I have been in 2 games with you in which you were prime lynch candidate. In both games I was scum and in both games I was scum and it was very easy to push a mislynch on you (GoT and SSMB mafia for the record). Given your reaction here, it happened again. When that happens once you might call it coincidence or "bad town", but when it happens 3 times you have to start thinking about your playstyle and what you can change (and also whether you want to... ) to not get mislynched.
Secondly, nightkills are often a lot of WIFOM, but sometimes it is just plainly suspicious if someone is left alive. There are some players who, if they live past N2 are almost certainly scum. There is nothing much wifom there, because they are simply too dangerous for scum to leave alive, so if they're alive past time X (without a damned good reason... and sometimes even with it), they are scum.
Fair enough. I'll change my play style then. I've always tried to operate under the assumption that posting a lot was pro-town. Get your thoughts out there for people to pick apart, and respond in a logical manner. I guess that's not how town operates on TL, so that's me needing to change and stop expecting TL town to change.
On September 14 2012 12:05 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 11:01 Risen wrote:On September 14 2012 10:55 Keirathi wrote:On September 14 2012 10:48 Risen wrote:
Don't even get me started on how everyone in this game has the reading comprehension of a 2 year old.
Keir you're awesome man. Haha, wait. Are you saying that I have the reading comprehension of a 2 year old, or that I am awesome? Or maybe an awesome 2 year old!? No, town has the reading comprehension of a 2 year old. You are just awesome for how you played this game. You took advantage of a stupid town by claiming you were RB'd, and while to any competent town in this setup it wouldn't be alignment indicative, it somehow confirmed you as town. On top of this you were the most active/useful person in the game after me, and if scum is posting more usefully than town, something is wrong. For some reason lynching the most active player seemed like a good idea to town, but then lynching the second most active didn't. I really thought it was you/prpl early on, but then v7 and dirk pulled their inane nonsense and I got all fucked up in the head. Add onto this Zeph with the question that somehow made me scum even though I answered it perfectly fine? This game came down to town being at the level of a trash can, prpl being about equally as bad, and you doing very well. I'd like to see you as scum against some semi-competent townies, I think you'd still do just as well as you did this game. hold on now. I apologized and all but Show nested quote +From Zephirdd's post
"Why do you think prplhz is scum? Tell us chronologically."
I never actually thought he was scum, he was just the scummiest guy in a thread of like 3 posters so he got the ball rolling. His reaction has not sat very well with me, but I really don't like your first sentence in that other post about me being town or at least playing to town meta or something. It just feels really superfluous to the point you were trying to make. Is not a fucking good answer. It's terrible. When you are telling something chronologically, you are supposed to create a list of things and order by time of occurrence. You just mentioned that you never thought the guy was scum and even then he was the scummiest guy in the thread. I don't even know why I apologized. I remember reading this partially and you saying "but I answered chronologically" and me thinking "oh maybe he did". Fuck no, you talked about your first post and threw some suspicion to my post. If I ended up having more time during the last 24 hours, I'd probably pick someone else to lynch(or try), but you can't say you played this perfectly.
Not only did I answer chronologically, when it turned out no one could read, I made the list you want later in the thread here
On September 08 2012 02:27 Risen wrote:
For clarity so scum zeph can't muddy the waters even more
Risen, chronologically tell the thread why you find prpl scummy
1)I never thought he was scum in my first post, he was just the scummiest of the posters before me so I chose him.
2) his actions since then have been scummy
What more do you want? It was early on in day 1. That's all I had to go on. You want more? There wasn't any more. That's why I felt he was most likely to be scum. So, chronologically, I came in with a nonsense case b/c prpl had been the "scummiest" in thread so far, and it was his response to that early case that made me feel he was scum. Anything missing there? Seems pretty chronological to me. Then again, I think the definition of chronological means ordered by time occuring, maybe you think something else? I talked about my first post and then I also expanded on why I felt he was scum now when I said his response was scummy. You see, I gave you why I made my first post, and then folowed that with my reasoning for finding him scummy AFTER my first post. To me, that goes then > after then. That looks pretty chronological to me. So if you'd like to go actually read the sentence AFTER the one where I explain my first post, instead of just stopping at the first sentence that would be great.
Anyways, I don't see why you find me thinking you're sketch after that as scummy. I don't know your alignment, how am I supposed to know your motives for posting anything. I had every right to come after you for talking about my meta and stuff. I was referencing this post with that sentence, by the way.
On September 06 2012 06:56 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 06:43 Zephirdd wrote:
Risen is not scum, or at least he doesn't look scum based on meta. I could tell you why, but it's information about an ongoing game. Suffice to say he flipped scum there and he looked very differently from these initial three posts.
On the other hand, a rule that seems to work a lot is Kenpachi Rule extended: everytime someone cares about some bullshit from the first post of a player, he's scum.
This applies for both prplhz and Risen here, but only one of them is an OMGUS.
That was quick huh
##vote prplhz Something to look at later. Why not just say I don't look scum based off meta? Scummy brosephemon.
Edit: In case it isn't clear... To me, and anyone else reading that, it looks like you somehow know I'm town. How would a townie know this? Only scum know everyone's alignment. You follow your claim that I'm not scum (a definite statement) with a small justification that leaves you open to "change your mind" later. Also, you hadn't claimed cop, so to me you were the same as anyone else. After the cop claim you would have been confirmed town in my mind.
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On September 14 2012 12:31 Risen wrote:Zeph just nominated you for best scum player Keir. I'm pretty sure if it was you/him/X in the end he would have been lynching X. Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:05 Acrofales wrote:
Lol. Two things (note, I still haven't read this game, just enjoying the discussion afterwards). Risen, I have been in 2 games with you in which you were prime lynch candidate. In both games I was scum and in both games I was scum and it was very easy to push a mislynch on you (GoT and SSMB mafia for the record). Given your reaction here, it happened again. When that happens once you might call it coincidence or "bad town", but when it happens 3 times you have to start thinking about your playstyle and what you can change (and also whether you want to... ) to not get mislynched.
Secondly, nightkills are often a lot of WIFOM, but sometimes it is just plainly suspicious if someone is left alive. There are some players who, if they live past N2 are almost certainly scum. There is nothing much wifom there, because they are simply too dangerous for scum to leave alive, so if they're alive past time X (without a damned good reason... and sometimes even with it), they are scum. Fair enough. I'll change my play style then. I've always tried to operate under the assumption that posting a lot was pro-town. Get your thoughts out there for people to pick apart, and respond in a logical manner. I guess that's not how town operates on TL, so that's me needing to change and stop expecting TL town to change.
There's literally no way he wouldn't have been suspicious of me in that situation, I think. Maybe I could have talked my way out of it, but why would I take that chance? Anyways, its all purely speculation, since prplhz wasn't lynched anyways, so its not important
As far as the second part, I think its more that when you post so much without thinking through what you're saying, you're bound to slip up and say things that mafia can jump on. Posting a lot and being open with your reasoning isn't necessarily that strong of a town tell if what you say can be perceived as scummy.
I mean, I didn't post as much as you day 1, but I still was pretty active comparatively. And that's about how active I am in all of my games, even as a townie. It's all about what you say and how you say it, not how many times you post.
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I'm still confused as to what I said that was scummy to people. No townie ever actually said anything other than "oh well his posting is scummy" that I didn't respond to.
Edit: I also think this is why I was pretty upset with town this game. No one would actually talk to me and let me defend myself, and when I did defend myself no one actually backed up their votes on me. From my perspective, it just looks like a lazy town filled with sheeple.
Double Edit: I also like how everyone in QT thought I was clearly town.
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Yea, well they thought I was too
Objectively, its things like the post where you gave the person you had a scum read on (prplhz) a way to be appear townie again. What's the town motivation for doing that? If you have a hunch that a person is scum, why would you ever tell them exactly what they needed to do to get back in your good graces? Granted, there's not much scum motivation for it, either, but as a scum you would already know that they are townie, so when it gets late game and someone questions why you don't still have a scum read on them, you can say "He started posting better and scumhunting!".
Also, all your WIFOM arguments against marv felt really out of place. Like, what purpose did they serve? You basically just used a bunch of WIFOM about playing as scum together to justify a "I'm paranoid of marv" read.
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On September 14 2012 12:48 Keirathi wrote:Yea, well they thought I was too Objectively, its things like the post where you gave the person you had a scum read on (prplhz) a way to be appear townie again. What's the town motivation for doing that? If you have a hunch that a person is scum, why would you ever tell them exactly what they needed to do to get back in your good graces? Granted, there's not much scum motivation for it, either, but as a scum you would already know that they are townie, so when it gets late game and someone questions why you don't still have a scum read on them, you can say "He started posting better and scumhunting!".
I actually typically advise people I attack on how to appear townie as a town player. Basically, if it's reasonable advice (write cases, give reads, etc) it forces them to either follow it or explain why they're not if your attack is good. The reason you do this is twofold: 1) no matter how sure you are you always want to give targets a chance to prove themselves townie and 2) it either forces scum to come out and engage you by taking certain actions, or for them to ignore your advice and look bad for it.
Telling people what they can do to be more townie is actually a good way to push town in the right direction and make scum uncomfortable playing an anti-town game.
The main reason the Risen lynch happened is that there was no clear counter-wagon.
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On September 14 2012 12:48 Keirathi wrote:Yea, well they thought I was too Objectively, its things like the post where you gave the person you had a scum read on (prplhz) a way to be appear townie again. What's the town motivation for doing that? If you have a hunch that a person is scum, why would you ever tell them exactly what they needed to do to get back in your good graces? Granted, there's not much scum motivation for it, either, but as a scum you would already know that they are townie, so when it gets late game and someone questions why you don't still have a scum read on them, you can say "He started posting better and scumhunting!". Also, all your WIFOM arguments against marv felt really out of place. Like, what purpose did they serve? You basically just used a bunch of WIFOM about playing as scum together to justify a "I'm paranoid of marv" read.
Because I've been in his position as town before and I wanted him to know that if he could find a way to start posting logically it would help him a lot. The WIFOM w/ marv stuff was probably a mistake, I agree. Is that indicative of alignment, though?
Edit: BH said it better than me.
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The main reason the Risen lynch happened is that there was no clear counter-wagon.
And I'll argue that this happened because town were either lazy or had no time at all. For me, I was really busy with a party, and then the hangover. I was like 'fuck this shit'. I'd probably call a bluelightz counterwagon if I wasn't so freaking wasted
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So, like I read 0.001% of the posts in this game, but BL's vote on Zephirdd and subsequent posts made me instantly think he's town.
For one, no "active" scum would do that unintentionally at all, since they will always keep 100% focus on anything that can out a blue and could confirm him or could cast doubt on him (to get him misslynched). Having a parity cop be confirmed town is not something any scum would miss nor forget, since that's kind of what they thrive on (to choose nightkills, etc)
So, the only way he'd do that as scum would be intentionally to cause disruption and chaos....but I didn't really see him follow up with that. Voting a confirmed cop is a very obvious blunder. For scum to plan something with that...they'd need to actually try to do something with it, OR make people believe it was a townie mistake since no scum would do that (if it was Risen that did that I'd lynch him in a heartbeat >_> <_< ). If not, it's more likely to be a stupid mistake from a rushed townie that's more eager to post than to think/read (which also kind of fits BL's meta).
Meh, I only read that post of his and then him stepping back and trying to make a case on prphlz/Dirk (didn't read anything else >_> ), but that's the impression I got, so in hindsight I think town could have avoided getting him lynched that last day.
EDIT: These days I'm mostly just forgetting about all games until around 0:00am GMT (if I got that time zone conversion right) and then I F5 like mad to see if there's any night/day post and see if town got some scum (I love it when town gets some scum!)
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On September 14 2012 12:59 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:48 Keirathi wrote:Yea, well they thought I was too Objectively, its things like the post where you gave the person you had a scum read on (prplhz) a way to be appear townie again. What's the town motivation for doing that? If you have a hunch that a person is scum, why would you ever tell them exactly what they needed to do to get back in your good graces? Granted, there's not much scum motivation for it, either, but as a scum you would already know that they are townie, so when it gets late game and someone questions why you don't still have a scum read on them, you can say "He started posting better and scumhunting!". I actually typically advise people I attack on how to appear townie as a town player. Basically, if it's reasonable advice (write cases, give reads, etc) it forces them to either follow it or explain why they're not if your attack is good. The reason you do this is twofold: 1) no matter how sure you are you always want to give targets a chance to prove themselves townie and 2) it either forces scum to come out and engage you by taking certain actions, or for them to ignore your advice and look bad for it. Telling people what they can do to be more townie is actually a good way to push town in the right direction and make scum uncomfortable playing an anti-town game. The main reason the Risen lynch happened is that there was no clear counter-wagon.
I understand your point. But look at marv's pressure vote against me on day1 for saying "I think" etc a bunch. He told me exactly what I needed to do to buy some free BotD. Had he not said that, I probably would have continued, and maybe there would have been something to make an actual case against at some point because he would have been scrutinizing me harder. Granted, that situation is a little different because I always post really iwshy-washy on day1 and get firmer as the game goes on, but the point still stands.
You can force people into playing your game and give yourself a better read of them in better ways, IMO. Ask them questions, ask for opinions, etc etc.
If it works for you, thats fine. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't like it.
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Blazinghand
United States25557 Posts
On September 14 2012 13:16 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:59 Blazinghand wrote:On September 14 2012 12:48 Keirathi wrote:Yea, well they thought I was too Objectively, its things like the post where you gave the person you had a scum read on (prplhz) a way to be appear townie again. What's the town motivation for doing that? If you have a hunch that a person is scum, why would you ever tell them exactly what they needed to do to get back in your good graces? Granted, there's not much scum motivation for it, either, but as a scum you would already know that they are townie, so when it gets late game and someone questions why you don't still have a scum read on them, you can say "He started posting better and scumhunting!". I actually typically advise people I attack on how to appear townie as a town player. Basically, if it's reasonable advice (write cases, give reads, etc) it forces them to either follow it or explain why they're not if your attack is good. The reason you do this is twofold: 1) no matter how sure you are you always want to give targets a chance to prove themselves townie and 2) it either forces scum to come out and engage you by taking certain actions, or for them to ignore your advice and look bad for it. Telling people what they can do to be more townie is actually a good way to push town in the right direction and make scum uncomfortable playing an anti-town game. The main reason the Risen lynch happened is that there was no clear counter-wagon. I understand your point. But look at marv's pressure vote against me on day1 for saying "I think" etc a bunch. He told me exactly what I needed to do to buy some free BotD. Had he not said that, I probably would have continued, and maybe there would have been something to make an actual case against at some point because he would have been scrutinizing me harder. Granted, that situation is a little different because I always post really iwshy-washy on day1 and get firmer as the game goes on, but the point still stands. You can force people into playing your game and give yourself a better read of them in better ways, IMO. Ask them questions, ask for opinions, etc etc. If it works for you, thats fine. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't like it.
Marv wasn't attacking you for saying "I think" because he wanted you to up your game, he attacked you because it was scummy.
Also, there's a big difference between telling people to stop doing scummy things and telling them what to do that would help town. "If you're a townie, you need to provide reads now" is 100% always a reasonable statement. The fact of the matter is, if scum follows all my suggestions and provides solid reads and cases and takes stances, they will out themselves: nobody's perfect.
There's a reason you can even CATCH scum: it's really hard to pretend to be town. The harder you try to pretend to be town, the more likely it is something you do will be different than what it would be as town. By cutting off player's ability to be anti-town, you are forcing scum into a very very tough position. It works for me, it works in general, and you're wrong, even if you don't like it.
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On September 14 2012 13:16 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2012 12:59 Blazinghand wrote:On September 14 2012 12:48 Keirathi wrote:Yea, well they thought I was too Objectively, its things like the post where you gave the person you had a scum read on (prplhz) a way to be appear townie again. What's the town motivation for doing that? If you have a hunch that a person is scum, why would you ever tell them exactly what they needed to do to get back in your good graces? Granted, there's not much scum motivation for it, either, but as a scum you would already know that they are townie, so when it gets late game and someone questions why you don't still have a scum read on them, you can say "He started posting better and scumhunting!". I actually typically advise people I attack on how to appear townie as a town player. Basically, if it's reasonable advice (write cases, give reads, etc) it forces them to either follow it or explain why they're not if your attack is good. The reason you do this is twofold: 1) no matter how sure you are you always want to give targets a chance to prove themselves townie and 2) it either forces scum to come out and engage you by taking certain actions, or for them to ignore your advice and look bad for it. Telling people what they can do to be more townie is actually a good way to push town in the right direction and make scum uncomfortable playing an anti-town game. The main reason the Risen lynch happened is that there was no clear counter-wagon. I understand your point. But look at marv's pressure vote against me on day1 for saying "I think" etc a bunch. He told me exactly what I needed to do to buy some free BotD. Had he not said that, I probably would have continued, and maybe there would have been something to make an actual case against at some point because he would have been scrutinizing me harder. Granted, that situation is a little different because I always post really iwshy-washy on day1 and get firmer as the game goes on, but the point still stands. You can force people into playing your game and give yourself a better read of them in better ways, IMO. Ask them questions, ask for opinions, etc etc. If it works for you, thats fine. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't like it.
The point here, is that it isn't alignment indicative. Look at my case on you here
+ Show Spoiler +On September 07 2012 02:49 Risen wrote:Keirathi your case is pretty bad man. I wish I had the patience to do the segmented response thing, but I'll just be responding to your points raised. 1) Keirathi should know discussion is the most important thing to get started on. Most games it comes in the form of setup discussion or a bad case. What other kind of case is there so early on in the day? You find something particularly disturbing in someone's initial post, and then you pressure them on it. Their response to said pressure, and the thread's response can be especially telling. Like calling someone out for getting discussion started. Then making inane points about how they're giving their "scum read" ways out.2) I'm giving a potential towny a way to come back. Guess what all scum have as a weakness, and inability to truly hunt scum, because they're just outing their teammates at that point. What does this force scum to do? Kind of like trying to force my lack of pressure on someone, who could just as easily be town as scum, as a sign of being scum. Lack of pressuring someone isn't a sign of being scum, it's a smokescreen used to give the appearance of scumhunting. 3)Not remembering a game I played with Marv where we were on different teams (note the I think in what you're calling me out on) is not a scumtell, nor is it misrepresentation of fact. I already answered where marv could potentially be bussing me, and trying to paint the use of bus instead of wagon as a scumtell is a sign of someone trying to push something that just isn't there.##unvote
##vote KeirathiSo maybe getting the game rolling wasn't such a bad idea  Prplhz THIS is how you respond to someone who has made a case on you if you genuinely think they're scum. Don't use OMGUS unless you're trying to convey that they wouldn't usually be this horrible, but are using being bad as a screen.
Regardless of someone telling you to step back, post logically, etc it's still a case that can be made. In the absence of scummy town people, scum have to slip up no matter what, so helping people out is pro-town imo.
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