EPTTL Mafia LVII
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On August 27 2012 12:33 DarthPunk wrote: Hi all. I am considering joining this game if there are spots open. But I would like to know if I am still to new and bad to play. (I have completed 2 newbie games). Any advice on the situation would be appreciated. Play! =D | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On August 30 2012 23:04 BroodKingEXE wrote: Let's start on FUNDAY! ![[image loading]](http://files.sharenator.com/300_rainbow_puke_Things_That_You_Will_Probably_Never_See_In_Real_Life-s522x399-286033-580.jpg) | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
/replacement Sorry! I really wanted to join the Death Note Mini Setup, and they need 1 more! | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Killed in DeathNote T_T | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
naw I got shot or somethin | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 03 2012 07:24 BlackMamba24 wrote: Whatever happens please no one come up with a retarded plan involving the watchers/trackers and make everyone claim to someone or whatever. Town circles/groups are ok if they form naturally and cautiously but dicussing all that Day 1 just gives the scum a big front to hide under. Read TL Mafia XXX analysis and look how harmful the focus on confirmed townies and blue roles was in that game. It's harmful in every game. It drives me crazy. If I'm mafia, ignore this advice =) | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oQoiR.jpg) Discuss. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 07:47 Ottoxlol wrote: I think you should start scumhunting or we will lynch you Rewok and austinmcc are my top scumreads - what are yours? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 07:56 slOosh wrote: Hapa, what is your idea of a town circle and how does it help us find / lynch / kill scum? Errr... well I wasn't planning on anyone taking that image seriously. I hate town circles. They're distracting to discussion and give people easy outs to "look" townie by "contributing" as opposed to scumhunting. I hate blue-oriented discussion in general really - it makes it easier for mafia to snipe blue roles by testing player reactions. Hell the idea of publicly determining blue actions is silly, considering it gives mafia the one information advantage that town has over mafia. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 08:06 Shady Sands wrote: Since no one's brought it up yet, I think we should lynch lurkers and posters that don't contribute D1. Again, this is not because lurking is a scumtell, but if we let people get away with it then scum have a place to hide. Drawing from my experience in XXIV, I'm going to say that it's a little early for cases. I'll be watching the thread though. What in particular about XXIV? Also, just because it's early for cases doesn't mean you have to resign yourself to "watching the thread." | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 08:28 slOosh wrote: No I want Hapa to answer for himself. Hapa, what did you mean by the bolded line? Mafia don't know what blues are going to do. Mafia's not going to know who the medic is saving or the blue is checking on a nightly basis, and can't play around their actions. Why should we publicly telegraph blue actions and give away the information advantage that blues hold? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 08:22 DoYouHas wrote: slOosh, my vote is neither stupid nor a throwaway. I have a friend who I consider a better player than me who has told me that getting BM out of the game quickly is always a good thing. It is meta as hell but it isn't stupid. Toad's aggression towards you is completely null. You seem to be playing into your town meta so far, but I really won't know for sure until your first/second case. ... so getting rid of a player (BM) is always a good thing even if he's town? What, is leaving him alive D1 a mafia win-condition or something? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 08:44 DarthPunk wrote: Things seem to have progressed quickly. I thought I would post to let you guys know I had popped into the thread. I look forward to playing with you all. (especially my XXIV alum.) Hey DP! Surely there's something you can comment on in the ~2 pages of the thread so far | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 09:12 Mattchew wrote: I am a nosy neighbor. Anyone else with this role should insta-claim as well. Hold up. Why would we want people with information roles to claim? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 09:26 Mattchew wrote: there is no information given to the role, it is a VT that (randomly) visits people. If a tracker or watcher see me on their check it could lead to a stupid mislynch Ah thanks for clearing it up. I'm just a bit wary of D1 claims in general after having seen SnB's "self-aware miller" claim in DeathNote Mini Mafia, justified or not. On September 04 2012 09:22 Toadesstern wrote: need an honest answer. What do you consider worse: a) People not thinking while posting / reading b) People defending other people 1 hour into the game when they have no reason to do such a thing and should be happy to see as much posts from the person in question defending himself rather than stopping the discussion defending him. Howabout c) People who pick fights with people who are trying to start conversation (slOosh) for the sake of picking fights? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 10:06 Toadesstern wrote: Actually no but it's a good one as well. So who/what are you referring to then? I thought it was my post that mattchew picked out as well. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 10:12 Z-BosoN wrote: Ah, I see, thanks  No, I haven't. So far I have only played in newbie xxiv, as scum. I've skimmed through the posts, and I'm still contemplating the implication of these new roles, and trying to figure out if it makes sense for noisy neighbors to claim. There are a lot of parallel discussions going on, but right now the filter I dislike the most is Sloosh's. Instead of attempting to make cases, he keeps asking questions and doesn't attempt to read peoples posts. 11/14 of his posts have questions, and I think this adds more confusion than it answers them. --Snip-- This is a scumread... really? Reads the exact opposite to me. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 10:16 Z-BosoN wrote: I would agree with you if these questions were to provoke discussion. Except that some of his questions: "Do you think I'm scum by my first post?" "Where did I do that?" "What makes you think I think that?" Seem like avoidable questions that can be answered just reading. Instead of reading thoroughly, he simply keeps asking questions and doesn't move the discussion forward. Seems like an easy way to look town to me. Do they not provoke discussion? Him and Toadsstern were the center of the early-game discussion, and it seems pretty silly to be critical of someone's filter when they took it upon themselves to get things going. He sounds like a townie that's poking and prodding, looking for answers. This won't make him popular in the early game, but it does give me a town read on him. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=15#285 In his only substantial post, he's very critical of the early-game play of two players. He calls mattchew's vote "retarded" but doesn't attempt to say if it's scummy or not. He doesn't ask questions about their motives - he's just critical, and that seems scummy to me. ##Vote DarthPunk | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 10:25 Toadesstern wrote: What gave you the impression that sloOsh's the one poking around and prodding while I am the evil mastermind trying to get people lynched? Where did I say that? I think you're both town - that much should be inferred from my post. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 11:12 Z-BosoN wrote: ... @Hapa You described a fine line between: -> Picking fights for the sake of picking fights 1 -> Picking fights for the sake of trying to start conversations 2 You defended sloosh based on him trying to start conversations. Can you be more specific on what is the difference between these two, for clarity?? ... Well firstly, sloOsh wasn't picking a fight with anyone as far as I could tell. He's been defending himself and questioning players, but he hasn't gone out looking for trouble. TBH, I just don't understand the purpose of your question. It should be pretty clear that #1 is more mafia-motivated than #2 (hence me believing that Toadsstern is town for now), but the question really doesn't apply to sloOsh. On September 04 2012 11:12 DarthPunk wrote: As to Mattchews alignment. He claimed Nosy neighbour. As far as I am concerned if he is not a nosy neighbour it will become apparent over time if he was lying. So I would like to take a wait and see approach. I don't feel like his posts are pro town. Perhaps I am missing things and it is going over my head. But clarity and Transparency are preferable to what has been going on during the last few pages. That's fair. Your responses seem townie enough - I'd ##unvote if votes in this thread actually counted =P | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 11:24 BloodyC0bbler wrote: you claimed miller. How would a miller know they are a miller? thus you are scum. You did read the setup right? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 11:36 BloodyC0bbler wrote: If you think I am wrong prove it. I wouldn't make the statement if I was not 100% sure I was right. As such you have defended a confirmed liar and are scum with him. Seriously people do you think I would call someone out if I didnt know my shit? -_- So your rationale is "How would a miller know they are a miller?" Well if he's telling the truth, he would know he's a Nosy Neighbor, because according to the setup rules, he would have knowledge of his title. Thus if telling the truth, he would know he's a miller. So... you're 100% sure he's lying? Something I'm missing here? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 11:48 BloodyC0bbler wrote: I am 100% sure. Nosy Neighbor is a miller role. A player never knows they are that role and a miller is always included in OP as a potential role. Again I say I am 100% right and nosy neighbours are for all intents and purposes a miller for this game and do not know they are a nosy neighbor. This is information 100% accurate given setup information. If you think I am lying prove me wrong, there is a way to do so. Let's do this the easy way: Is the "Nosy Neighbor" self-aware? Does he receive his exact title in the role PM? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Regarding the "Nosy Neighbor" claim, I just can't see mafia doing that. If the role isn't self-aware as you suggest, aren't you just shooting yourself in the foot from a mafia perspective? Because if no one else claims, you get auto-lynched. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I generally agree with everything that sloOsh said above. As far as I'm concerned, my vote will stay on him unless another nosy neighbor comes along and role-claims. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 19:29 Miltonkram wrote: Now that we're 99% sure Mattchew is scum I'd like everyone to turn their attention to Hapahauli. He chainsaw defends Mattchew after Mattchew recieves pressure from DarthPunk. All the while he avoids actually commenting whether he thinks Mattchew seems guilty or not. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. I'd like everyone to turn to Miltonkram for straight up lying about post history. This would be the biggest pile of crap I've seen in the thread if it wasn't for the Mattchew fake-claim. Scum coming in late and trying to make the best of a bad situation IMO. Then he spends time needling the conversation to a point where DarthPunk is willing to unvote Mattchew until BC comes in and blows that shit up (like a bauss). At that point in the game, DarthPunk hadn't voted for mattchew yet. DarthPunk never votes until Palmar confirms the lie. Looks like we have scum #2 - using misinformation to make a key component of his "case" stronger. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. Did I not seriously pursue DarthPunk for a little while? You're full of it, and it's pretty clear you're desperate to cast suspicion without reading the thread. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 22:22 Rewok wrote: New info makes Mattchew's "cool for a D1 vote" even cooler, IMO. We gotta get some blood today and Mattchew's BS seems lynchworthy to me. ##vote: Mattchew. PS. I bolded a bunch of null reads, but about 6 of my reads leaned one way or another. Not defending the fact I wrote a really, really long post  Can you specify which reads lean one way or the other? It's not entirely obvious (and open to much interpretation) when you bold "null read" next to every one of your reads. Also, any updates to the list in light of the events of the last few pages? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 04 2012 23:42 Ottoxlol wrote: My bad, I missed that scum has no way of tracking. FML Although he thought that millers are selfaware. He claimed and asked for others to claim, he can be a tracker, track everyone who claims. + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2012 12:35 Hapahauli wrote: @ BC Regarding the "Nosy Neighbor" claim, I just can't see mafia doing that. If the role isn't self-aware as you suggest, aren't you just shooting yourself in the foot from a mafia perspective? Because if no one else claims, you get auto-lynched. On September 04 2012 13:08 Hapahauli wrote: ##Vote Mattchew I generally agree with everything that sloOsh said above. As far as I'm concerned, my vote will stay on him unless another nosy neighbor comes along and role-claims. What? So Hapahauli thinks its not scum play, then sloOsh suggest that one of BC or Matt is scum (based on that BC is forcing 1-1 with Matt and he's lying so he is the scum) then immediately switches vote to Matt when votes started piling up on him. Don't get why this is suspicious. Did you read anything between those two posts? DarthPunk and BC addressed my question pretty well. Combined with sloOsh's post, I felt that BC's confidence in his read was enough to vote for mattchew (with BC essentially 1-for-1'ing himself and mattchew). | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Firstoff, people please take a look at my post here before you continue pressuring me/whatever: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=23#447 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=23#448 Miltonkram built a case on me based on straight-up lies, and I certainly can't find any townie motivation for it. I find it hard to believe that a townie wouldn't exercise much more care in making a case/pressuring when one basically-confirmed mafia is on the lynch block. Now on to the rest of it: @ Ottoxlol On September 05 2012 02:40 Ottoxlol wrote: So you voted Matt because of BC's confidence. ?! + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2012 02:31 Toadesstern wrote: 1) because, as already mentioned, that kind of play is the most stupid thing you could do as townie. It's like fakeclaiming a red check on someone because you think the guy is mafia. You just don't do that. Never. Ever. 2) Yeah and clearly I'm the guy trying to stop discussion. My filter just screams "don't talk about anything and just vote guys!"... 3) I'm not answering selective. I'm answering in a way that people have to think about what I'm posting. If they don't I'll realize that and frankly you're one of the people who are reading whithout thinking for at least a second what's actually in the post and you've just proven it again. So stop whining about answers and try to show the will to understand what's going on. 4) I said the fakeclaim has a purpose as mafia while it has none as town. The purpose as mafia would be to blend in if he assumes millers are self-aware. I never said it was successful. Another example of you not even thinking about what was posted and just answering in a hury. I don't like that. 5) I answered this with those 4 (now 5) bullet points to make it a little easier to understand from your point. Sorry, but you are still ignoring my question. I will make it easy on you: Why is it more probable to make a mistake as scum when you CAN have discussion about your actions with the other ones, then it is to make a mistake alone? Why are you not reading my responses? What part of that post says "I only voted because of BC's confidence?" I found BC's and DP's responses to my question sufficient, and combined with sloOsh's post, I voted for mattchew. It sounds like you want me to fudge some half-assed attempt at an "original contribution" when there was none for me to make. They convinced me and I voted. Simple. Now as for you, why the hell aren't you voting mattchew? It's beyond thick at this point. @ BillMurray On September 05 2012 05:51 Bill Murray wrote: I see. See, what is happening here is both distancing and trying to divert the wagon. Hapahauli also has scummy interaction with Doyouhas in the said suspicious post. Doyouhas's vote on me early reeks of scum pushing policy on town feels like a bus... Hapahauli has bad language use which makes him look like scum. Hrmmmm.... I'm interacting with all the people in the thread in the early game... must be scum... no townie motivation... Right. Didn't they tell you in the newbie games not to infer alignments/connections between people who haven't flipped? That's what I'm telling the newbies I'm coaching for crying out loud. DoYouHas must be mafia, therefore I must be mafia, therefore everyone who interacted well with me must be mafia? Yuh-huh. Wish I could comment more, but your suspicions are baseless. Going to get to miltonkram and StrongnBig next post | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 04:20 Miltonkram wrote: Or I just thought DarthPunk had voted for Mattchew already. My mistake. He had put pressure on Mattchew though and thus I would call Hapahauli's attack on DarthPunk a chainsaw defense. If you look at the back and forth between Hapa and Darth you see that Hapa backs off only when Darth starts backing off from Mattchew. 1 This sticks out to me because it tells me that Hapa's goal was not to pressure Darth, but to take pressure off of Mattchew. What had Darth done to deserve the BOTD from Hapa? 2 1) Bullshit. I don't even know how you can construe DP's post as "pressure" if you even bothered to even skim our exchange. I accused DP of not putting pressure on mattchew and instead only criticizing his play. That much you should've realized if you were townie and didn't fudge a case to start a bandwagon. There was no "backing off" because there was no "pressure." There's no way you would make this mistake as town. 2) My goal was to pressure DarthPunk, and then his responses seemed townie. He instantly replied to everything I had to say and refused to back off his word choice. To me, this seems townie. Am I unjustified here, or are you spouting more shit? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 04:18 strongandbig wrote: looks like you and me in the thread, toad. You do science, right? You just sitting around taking data too? Anyway, I just reread this post. Thought it was interesting that no one had commented on it yet. I certainly agree that misrepresenting history in posts to make your cases seem stronger is a scummy trait, but I'm not sure if that by itself is enough to call him scum#2 like that. However, given that it's milton's only post, it does draw attention. I'd like to hear something from Milton: - do you still think hapa is scum? - what do you have to say about his accusation that you misrepresented the facts? - do you think he was right or wrong about darthpunk? Does that matter to your read on hapa himself? Certainly it's not a 100% scumread, but it's pretty damn close. There's literally no townie motivation to lie to cast suspicion on someone. If it was simply a bad case (poor logic, whatever), it could come from a townie no problem. However, falsifying information is a different matter, and every player I've seen do so in one of my games has flipped mafia. His relative lurkiness doesn't help his case either. He had one or two fluffposts, then immediately came in on the mattchew bandwagon whilst simultaneously accusing me of being suspicious. Looks pretty damn scummy to me. Also interesting that he ignored that post until you brought it up SnB... hmmm? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Since you're in the thread, what you think of miltonkram? I've think I've lined out why he's scummy pretty well, and I'd like to hear some thoughts from other players. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=26#502 He continues his tunneling with more misinformation, which I address below: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=27#537 Why would he make two horrendous cases as town? Even after I pointed it out to him? He seems desperate to cast suspicion. Again, confirmation bias is one thing, but it's just misinformation one post after another. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 07:08 Miltonkram wrote: @ Hapahauli I didn't intentionally misrepresent you. I thought Darth had voted Mattchew before the little back and forth between you two. I was tired after a long day of work, and so I got things mixed around. You can see how scummy that would make you look from my perspective when I first made the case against you. @ BC I see your point. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. Problem is that it wasn't just the vote. You had a second bit as well, and that's way too coincidental: Other than that he's been plenty forthcoming with town reads, but he has yet to seriously pursue a scum read. Other than me not "seriously pursue[ing] a scum read" being absurd given the game length at the time (barely a few hours), you quoted the scumread I was pursuing in your own post. That's not just 1, but two lovely instances of you lying in the same post. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 07:19 Hopeless1der wrote: The whole point of his case is that you pushing DP wasn't a real scum read, it was errant Day 1 bullshit. Which most of the thread was at that point. I still think he's scummy because that's a shitty case at the time it arose, but it's reasonably consistent, despite the misinformation. imaninja o.o But in all seriousness, I'm trying to find out milton's standard for "seriously pursuing a scumread." What does he want me to do - spew suspicions all over the thread on hour 2 of the game? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
What do you think of Bill Murray? He actually called your case a "good observation." | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
@Milton another good catch. Notice the interaction with Doyouhas? Seems like scum coaching. "Hey, your vote on BM sucks" | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Does Ottoxlol's defense of Mattchew make him likely-mafia? While I consider his arguments insane (at best), I'd imagine that mafia are in full-bus mode on Mattchew no? I just don't see the mafia motive in going against the entire town to defend a guy who's basically confirmed scum. Regarding MiltonKram - I think the key difference between his case and your case in DN Mini (tunneling you for that long was a horrible play on my part) is the presence of misleading evidence. In the DN Mini, your case wasn't good (D1 Caveats of course) but it wasn't misleading. MiltonKram not only tried to point out a third party, but used false evidence. I think there's a high chance he's mafia. Now he could be a townie who made a bad play, but I find it unlikely given the content and timing of his suspicions. I also find it amusing that every time someone calls him out, he seems to fly into the thread, but is hush-hush otherwise. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Are we reading the same game? Why are you agreeing with me on Mattchew? I wasn't the one who made the case. Also, Grush is nowhere near a modkill - he has several posts and a vote already. In that list of lurkers, how is Lvdr "semi-lurking" - he doesn't even have a post! | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 09:48 Rewok wrote: Been keeping up my reading. Here's how the situation seems to me: We're voting Mattchew today. Pretty much no getting out of that. If he turns up scum, Ottox and a few others could be on the chopping block. If he's town, we've got a whole new set of reads. But it seems to me that our whole strategy hinges on how Mattchew turns up after he's killed. Is there any way we can get another read / another kill set up for D1? One which doesn't hinge on Mattchew's alignment? I'm asking because you guys are way more familiar with the way TL mafia runs. So you're supporting the Mattchew lynch then? Didn't you just say he was a likely assassin/bad-blue? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 09:51 BlackMamba24 wrote: GoodKarma - are you going to vote for mattchew right now? GoodKarma is scum for this reason - he says that mattchew is confirmed scum but then doesn't vote for him and tries to push suspicion onto me instead, appeals to BC (buddying up to a vet, classic newbie scum) basically the same as treehugger or whoever in tl mafia xxx who says "yeah youngminii is scum for sure but im not gonna vote for him and instead make a case on this random dude" The strange thing is that he buddied up to me and not to BC. Hell it's pretty clear from his post that he didn't read the thread, given his stances on Grush and lvdr. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=16#319 Yeah he's mafia. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 09:58 Rewok wrote: Sorry guys, basically meant this: Instead of just bringing up targets in passing, let's actually focus on it. Like, what's our priority here? My fav scum read right now is Ottox because of how hard he fought for Mattchew, even after the proof was up. Plus, he spreads a fair amount of dissent - I see his names in multiple filters. He'd be my reco for D1 / N1. But if someone has a better reason for someone else, we should talk about this. Think about it: if we get two kills day one (two GOOD kills) we're looking at a huge advantage. So do you think Mattchew is scum then? Why the sudden change in heart? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Firstly, it's a bad idea for any playertype. Now we need to figure out among which category is most likely: Town Most unlikely. Townies have no incentive to fake-claim a miller role. In addition, Mattchew's complete silence after his like being confirmed makes it even less likely he's town. Townies would be dumping reads and desperately trying to scumhunt. Blue Also unlikely. Blues want to claim vanilla townie, not another role. There is no incentive to lie to town as a blue. Similar to the VT reasoning, Mattchew's silence is very telling of a non-town alligned role. Assassin Possible, but unlikely, considering that Assassins can survive NK's (but not lynches), and thus have no real reason to clam. Mafia Most likely. While it's undeniably stupid to fake-claim as mafia, there is mafia mentality behind the move. Mafia wants to establish themselves as townie early in the game, and it's pretty clear that Mattchew thought the "Nosy Neighbor" was a self-aware miller. Given that it makes sense for self-aware millers to instantly claim, Mattchew fake-claimed to get an alibi and look townie (and excuse his scummy night actions). It also makes sense for mafia to lie to the town. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 10:39 ShiaoPi wrote: can you just shut up ottox, it gets annoying to see you harping around the same obvious nonsense all thread long.... Welcome back ShiaoPi - any scumreads besides mattchew? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 10:55 ShiaoPi wrote: @Ottox: thanks, have a good night and just cut it >_> @Hapa: Besides the ones that have been called out already (e.g. Ottox, goodkarma, Milton, all leaning scum for me, maybe with the exception of Ottox...) I do not really have some at the moment. Austin is way more inactive from the town-austin I know but that's a kind of weak meta argument right now. Also I am still waiting on Gravan Surely there's one or two that stick out to you in particular? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
BM24 had voted BloodyCobbler for withholding information from the town at the time. BC was deliberately withholding his read from the town and asking other players to "see the logic". Several players (including BM24 and myself) were pretty upset at this, and BM24 voted for BC. This was wholly reasonable IMO. Though I find it funny that you don't acknowledge the key rationale for BM24's vote on BC, then turn around and use the very same logic against BM24 - "withholding information from the town." In fact the logic of that entire post is pretty terrible. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=29#561 tl;dr "here are a bunch of semi-lurkers" "I'm suspicious of BM24" Lastly, wtf is that section on me about? I've "scumslipped" yet I'm townie? Where are my "scumslips?" What does your read even do? Also... semantics: you switched Grush and Lvdr... NOT Grush and Gravan. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 12:18 BlackMamba24 wrote: He's not using the same logic, I think he genuinely misunderstands why I voted for BC and new players have all been taught by other bad townies that posting a lot and posting your reads is good when it's trash so i'm not surprised i drop the fos on him completely, goodkarma isn't scum or at least if he is he hasn't revealed himself yet I'm not ready to make a conclusion until I hear some more answers. I really don't have enough information to infer his genuinity. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 12:47 BroodKingEXE wrote: Never mind about my last post. Ottox is pretty much the only person with doubt, its just that so many people shutting him down it seems like it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=29#570 What about Gravan? There's certainly some doubt in that post. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
BroodKingEXE brought up that Ottox isn't pursuing his scumreads. He seems remarkably unconcerned with Toadsstern (whom he has a vote on) over the last few pages. He comments how Toad isn't answering his questions and pretty much leaves it at that - never once appealing to other players to take a look at Toad. In addition, he has an FOS against me from a couple of pages back: On September 05 2012 02:15 Ottoxlol wrote: He not just fakeclaimed, he also asked everyone to do so :D I wrote down my thoughts about the scenario where he is a tracker, or an assassin, why do you ignoring it? Does it go against your easy D1 lynch plan? sloOsh and your "I'm confident so I'm town lets keep arguing about nothing so everyone can see us active" then your selective answers put you right into my fos along with Hapahauli's strange voteswitch. Yeah, he blend in perfectly with everyone voting him Not once has he actively tried to push his FOS, despite me and Ottox being active in the thread at similar times. He had plenty of opportunity to push it but completely forgot about his suspicions. At this point, what is the purpose of Ottoxlol going in and arguing about the Mattchew lynch? It certainly isn't going to stop Matt from getting lynched, and that much should be obvious to just about anyone in the thread. Ottox never once suggests that we shouldn't vote for Mattchew - he only attacks the argument against him, attacking the vocal/active supporters of the Mattchew lynch. But look at his recent quote: You say scum dont want to give away much. Thats my main concern too, no one has to add anything to why they vote Matt, thats why i am trying to get ppl to talk about it. Huh? This is completely inconsistent with his "strategy" - he's not trying to get lurkers to talk about Mattchew - he's doing the exact opposite by interacting with non-lurker players! Ottoxlol is not scum-hunting - he's just picking fights for the sake of picking fights. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Also, "I suggested to talk about Matt" is a pretty laughable description for the actions in your filter - you didn't suggest a conversation, you've been not-reading and pretty much ignoring every argument for Mattchew for insane reasoning. Why are you picking fights with people who are actively telling you why Mattchew is mafia? You said you were suspicious of... Those who started focusing on Gravan but ignored me. Those who voted Matt with a one liner. What part about your actions have pursued these people? They haven't. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 05 2012 17:31 Miltonkram wrote: @ Hapahauli Just catching up on the thread after work. Figured I should respond to this. You're a nullish read to me. There are things about your play that I'm not fond of, but after thinking on them I'm no longer convinced they are scummy. I don't understand the point BM is trying to make against you here or here @ BM Any chance you can clarify what you were trying to say in these two instances? You still haven't provided us with a single scumread. Also, when I asked you for thoughts on BillMurray, I was hoping you'd actually take a stance instead of passively questioning him. I'm kinda disappointed that you didn't take any initiative whatsoever here - I asked you for scumreads and an opinion on BillMurray. All you did was passively question BM without anything else. You're not interacting with players in the thread, nor are you providing reads. I still find you highly suspicious. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Care to elaborate on "lies"? Or really address anything in y post? Evidently my English skills are too poor to comprehend your immaculate writing style. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:31 Toadesstern wrote: Ottox still hasn't understood the difference between intention and what ended up happening. That's the whole deal here. He is saying it makes no sense for mafia to claim like that because it failed, therefore it was bad. As town it would / could have worked out according to him. That's his whole reasoning and he's not unterstanding that everyone is talking about the intention and not what ended up happening. I think the problem is that Ottox isn't rational. I think he's just trolling at this point, and we should be ignoring him. There should be enough information in his filter to decide whether he's scum or horrifically-bad townie. I think the first is much more plausible. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:52 Ottoxlol wrote: No he did not. All we know he played bad and lied. Thats not a scumslip. Why are you writing in all caps? Is it because you know your argument is invalid? Fact #1) Mattchew lied. We both agree on this. Fact #2) The purpose of Mattchew's claim was to prevent him from looking suspicious if he was tracked/watched. See the below quote: On September 04 2012 09:26 Mattchew wrote: there is no information given to the role, it is a VT that (randomly) visits people. If a tracker or watcher see me on their check it could lead to a stupid mislynch Fact #3) Mattchew has made no attempts to defend himself after getting his lie confirmed, and has only re-entered the thread to troll. #2 proves that he's not Town. He acknowledged that he was going to "visit" people. Townies don't "visit" people, hence he cannot be town. #3 proves that he's not Blue. A blue role would want to be helpful to the town before he died. He would also roleclaim if he was Blue. This leaves two possibilities: Mafia or Assassin. Assassin is unlikely, since they are immune to night kills and have no reason to put themselves at risk. The question of "stupid play for Mafia" is irrelevant, since it already happened. Given that he lied, the only plausible scenarios are he's Mafia or Assassin. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 06:57 Bill Murray wrote: @Hapa, in relation to your "case" on Ottoxlol - Who is more likely to be picking fights, mafia, or town? Why? I think that's a bad way to approach the question, since a lot of it depends on individual playstyle and context as opposed to "likelihood." Picking fights alone isn't mafia or town - Toadsstern was picking fights early in the game, but that was more to generate discussion in my opinion. In the case of Ottoxlol, he's picking fights, not to generate discussion, but to be generally trolly and avoid pursuing his scumreads. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 07:12 Bill Murray wrote: you're not implying, but outright saying he has scumreads wouldn't, he as scum, have a scumlist as opposed to scumreads? Sorry if you consider this semantics I think it's just semantics. Mafia and Town usually have have "scumreads" - the difference lies in sincerity. But he does outright have "scumreads" in the thread. He has a little-explained vote on Toadsstern and an FOS on me that he pretty much never pursued and never retracted. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 07:13 Bill Murray wrote: um... why are you parroting me? you're scum on my list again just for this post ... Says the guy who parroted MiltonKram's case on me? So from that list, you don't see Ottoxlol as suspicious. Why not? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 07:17 Bill Murray wrote: Also, Hapahauli, what is your read on Gravan? Scum or town? I don't want you using the word Null. Pick one. Scum or town? Consider yourself having a Gun to your head. Null. Deal with it. His posts/logic right now could come from either mafia or bad-townie. I don't have enough information to make a decision since hasn't posted much. Fortunately we have 48 hours to make a read on him. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 07:27 imallinson wrote: I'd say Gravan looks real scummy right now. He attempted the same thing as Ottox, defending Matt by saying he was probably an assassin, but much more quietly and backed away as soon as he realised it was a bad idea. If anything that looks more scummy than Ottox at the moment. I agree his logic is terribad (he's voting for an assassin, not mafia). However, I really think that logic can come from a bad player (given his low postcount). I also think his 'lurkiness' doesn't determine his alignment. He doesn't have many posts on the forum, and short of him being a smurf, I've seen maybe newbies do that. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
 | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Agree with everything except for MiltonKram. 3. At least one active person, probably Bill Murray. He's seemed to focus a lot on people like MiltonKram/Hapahauli neither of whom are scummy at all and meanwhile his rhetoric/language seems very much an attempt to buddy up with me or other people. I understand if you have more of a null read on him than I do, but "not scummy at all" seems ridiculous, given his bad D1 case and the fact that he fits "category 2" pretty well: 2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts Milton has been lurking and hasn't contributed at all since he dropped his case on me - he only popped in once to question BillMurray. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:24 BlackMamba24 wrote: seriously, vigilantes need to kill ottox the dude is 100% scum please don't go retard-mode and think he's town over some wifom I'm having second thoughts about ottox. He reads to me like a horrendously deluded townie. Think about it - he hard defends Mattchew. That's absurd from a scum perspective - especially AFTER Mattchew was confirmed. It doesn't read like ottox really was playing with the extra information (knowing allignments), he would have STFU long ago. Combined with the fact that he seems genuinely upset and has been pretty active, I'm going to retract my suspicions on him. I think he's a bad bad bad townie. I'd much rather vigi-shot MiltonKram at this point, I'm wondering why you thought he wasn't scummy in your earlier post after the lynch. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:27 Bill Murray wrote: ohhhh i get the bm/bm/bc thing now yeah we're the 3 most obvious pro-town... regardless of alignment possibly toad or even hapahauli... austinmcc is very pro-town as well, but i'd like to see more one liners from him For emphasis: pro-town... regardless of alignment You serious? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 08:48 BlackMamba24 wrote: because there are clear and very mafia-aligned motivations behind what ottoxlol is doing that make zero sense from any other perspective "too scummy to be scum" is a BS argument dude, ottoxlol needs the noose I know it's tempting to think so, but hard defending confirmed scum isn't at all scummy. It reads pretty bad townie actually. Though quite frankly I'm shocked that you can't attribute any town motivation toward ottoxlol while thinking that MiltonKram isn't scummy, and attributing town motivations towards his actions. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:04 BlackMamba24 wrote: You're right, just because ottoxlol defended someone who flipped scum says absolutely nothing about his alignment. If you paid attention, you'll notice that has very little to do with why I'm saying he's scum. I just read MiltonKram's filter. He made a simple mistake regarding timing with DarthPunk, he voted for Mattchew, put a little pressure on you and you overreacted. Sound familiar? I've made worse mistakes in this game. Completely overlooking Goodkarma's vote which was the whole point of my case on him, etc. but you never called me out for that? Take the blinders off. You remind me a bit of youngminii, a player who was otherwise okay but as soon as anyone questioned him or FoS'd him he'd flip his lid. He actually shot me twice (once as dayvig once as nightvig) when I was town because I was suspicious of him. Good times. Regarding MiltonKram - Let's drop the bad case. He's still lurking and hasn't contributed anything to the thread other than his case. How on earth do you think he's town? I understand Null, but Town?!? He even fits one of your categories quite well: 2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts Regarding Ottoxlol - I was suspicious of him "not pushing his scumreads" as well, but upon a second readthrough, I find it more convincing that he got too caught up in his argument. He actually "pushes" Toadsstern quite a bit when you consider that he quotes and attacks a lot of Toad's posts whilst having his vote on Toad. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:19 BlackMamba24 wrote: So because he lurked he's the scummiest player in the thread? So have a lot of other people. A lot of them are probably blues or ninjas. Ottoxlol jumped on you immediately when you posted a picture like 10 seconds into the game before anything happened. He's unreasonable and negative from the beginning. His case on Toadesstern consists of Toadesstern ignoring his questions but he did answer the questions. "Since no one made a case other than he's lying therefore scum. " This is untrue. He keeps repeating things like this that are false. Multiple people came up with other reasoning, especially me and BC. Later he lies and said I never explained my reasons even though I did, directly to him. He continues to get more and more belligerent. This is very odd behavior for someone who is simply defending "another townie". His only other attack on Toadesstern is "nice scum slip there". You think that counts as pushing? Sure, he was caught up in his argument but his argument was almost all straight up lying and ignoring people. He continues to say that no one has any reason and ignores me and BC saying over and over about Mattchew's lack of defense, lack of analysis, lack of any town actions behind his fake claim. You don't just look at a lie or a slip and lynch someone, but Mattchew had NOTHING that indicates a pro-town attitude behind it. Who gives up that quickly before the mod even confirmed the lie? Scum. It didn't make sense any other way but instead of finally responding to reasons beyond "he lied" he just ignores it and continues to say no one provided any. We're interpreting Ottox's posts vastly differently here. Ignoring people and not reading the thread =/= scum (aren't you defending Mattchew on this basis?). Does Ottox seem like he's playing with extra information? Answer to that is no no and no. So because he lurked he's the scummiest player in the thread? So have a lot of other people. A lot of them are probably blues or ninjas. Mattchew is the definition of the playertype you criticized here: 2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts ...yet you don't think he's suspicious at all? There's no sane reason for you not to find him suspicious given your own analysis. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 09:54 BloodyC0bbler wrote: For those who missed it the first time. He clearly states happa + toad are trying to defend their "mates" or in this case "mate" by trying to drop the matt discussion. This is 3 reds. He then states the other 2 mafia are lurkers who voted with no real content then generically lists a bunch of lurkers and DrH who has been one of the most active players in the game. But he told us 5. 2 defending 1 and then 2 in a group of lurkers. It wasn't I think there are two more or anything. he clearly outlines 2 defending their scumbuddy by shutting down conversation (lul as that wasnt the reason they argued with him) and 2 in lurkers. Guy outright mislabeled one of the most active players calling him a "lurker" and outed the mafia team # as 5. Burn him with fire. Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but isn't he suggesting 4 mafia members in that post? At the time he made that post, I was under the impression that he thought Mattchew was town. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Mind you this all occurs before the flip. At that time, Ottox doesn't think Mattchew is town (hence his vote on Toadsstern and defends of Mattchew). He calls Me and Toad two scum, and then 2 other scum lurkers. That's only 4 scum, and given how unlikely there are only 4 scum in a game of this size, I think it's him more not writing well than anything else. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:04 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Disagree. He clearly states defending their mates by not allowing the discussion to go on. The only person the discussion "defended" was mattchew. You nor toad were from what I read were defending a ton of people by shutting down that conversation, you were trying to stop dealing with a troll. The only person who was being defended in that entire conversation (by otto) was mattchew. We know mattchew was red, he gave 2 people ahead 2 people behind. I honestly believe its a scumslip I could have horribly misread it and if so I am certain more than you will inform me as such, however take this and apply it to everything said about otto by players like drH. Do you honestly see him otto as town? Can you explain his behaviour at all as something a town member would do. I sure as hell can't. Disagree as well - "defending their mates" is very different from "defending Mattchew." Note that mates is plural. Then consider that he mentions 2 other scum lurkers. I think it's pretty clear what his intentions are. But consider this hypothetical: 95% of the town thinks Player A is scum. Player A is confirmed scum. Hypothetical townie hard defends Player A. Does it make sense for this hypothetical townie to defend Player A when he's 100% sure to get lynched/shot the next day? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I've been arguing with him back and forth about Miltonkram, and DrH has taken a wildly inconsistent stance on him throughout the game. Note, that none of this depends on my read of Miltonkram - it's valid either way. Here is DrH's first mention of MiltonKram: On September 05 2012 09:11 BlackMamba24 wrote: Just like my early premature vote on Hapahauli in Death Note made me scum? It's not scummy. What's scummy, hapa, isn't his case, it's that he's avoiding talking about the relevant happenings in town and pointing out something completely different. Here's what happens when one scum has heat on him or one scum is majorly involved in some sort of town argument/drama: Little scum come out and say "oh, yeah this is interesting what's going on but look at random poster X, he did something kinda a little weird so we should lynch him instead!" And maybe it was a little weird. I personally don't like hapahauli's playstyle and it gave me the wrong impression of him in Death Note. A lot of people auto-assume I'm scum because I say policy lynches are stupid, I'll never vote for someone for lurking, I'll never post "reads", I don't answer peoples questions if I think they're dumb, etc. I think that Milton made a mistake worth looking into and if you couple that with the fact that he posted it how he did and when he did, yeah it's suspicious. I think vigilantes or trackers should take a serious look at this dude tonight. If Mattchew does flip blue or black or whatever though, then that means there isn't much of a case beyond someone made a kinda bad case or a mistake and that doesn't totally indicate alignment. Not enough to lynch him over all the shitstorm that will occur whenever mattchew flips what he does. Lookie lookie - DrH think's Miltonkram is suspicious. Suspicious enough to suggest a tracker check on Miltonkram. DrH doesn't mention Miltonkram again until this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=40#795 1. People who went actively or softly against the Mattchew lynch: Ottoxlol/Gravan 2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts 3. At least one active person, probably Bill Murray. He's seemed to focus a lot on people like MiltonKram/Hapahauli neither of whom are scummy at all and meanwhile his rhetoric/language seems very much an attempt to buddy up with me or other people. Whatwhatwhatwhat?!!? This is a huge shift in attitude! It's almost as if DrH forgot he was suspicious of Miltonkram. Look at "point #2" and then at Miltonkram's filter - Miltonkram fits point number 2 to a tee, yet DrH thinks Milton isn't scummy at all!!!!!! DrH continues to defend MiltonKram after this post. Notice that DrH is very reluctant to give a definitive read on Milton, and instead attacks me for "unjustly" tunneling him. You're right, just because ottoxlol defended someone who flipped scum says absolutely nothing about his alignment. If you paid attention, you'll notice that has very little to do with why I'm saying he's scum. I just read MiltonKram's filter. He made a simple mistake regarding timing with DarthPunk, he voted for Mattchew, put a little pressure on you and you overreacted. Sound familiar? I've made worse mistakes in this game. Completely overlooking Goodkarma's vote which was the whole point of my case on him, etc. but you never called me out for that? Take the blinders off. You remind me a bit of youngminii, a player who was otherwise okay but as soon as anyone questioned him or FoS'd him he'd flip his lid. He actually shot me twice (once as dayvig once as nightvig) when I was town because I was suspicious of him. Good times. and don't coach me hapahauli please lol i've been here a while i don't need it So because he lurked he's the scummiest player in the thread? So have a lot of other people. A lot of them are probably blues or ninjas. Again, whether Milton is town or mafia, this is horrendously suspicious. DrH made a sudden shift in suspicions for no rationale. In fact, his own analysis suggests that he should still find Milton suspicious. After I pointed out this contradiction, he was reluctant to give a definitive read on Milton and responded by attacking my play as opposed to clarifying his stance on Milton. I want some answers from DrH | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 10:39 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Fair, but I feel from reading that people to a degree really are ignoring his posts overall. I say the # is 5 because the only person they could be defending by shutting down the mattchew conversation is mattchew. By shutting it down and stopping thread from talking about it it would allow anyone to bring up another case and potentially force a misslynch. Keep in mind the arguments being done by otto that were being responded to were still for ages under the hypothetical situation that millers were self aware -_- As such in the case of "self aware millers" the only person being defended by happa / toad was mattchew. As dropping that discussion would let another potential lynch target be brought up. However they were arguing shit for awhile that didn't matter or wasn't possible given this setup. IE he names 2 reds, the person they were defending and 2 others given his horrible logic. I obviously am slightly bias'd as I think he's red and that screams scumtell to me. How do you explain the plural use of "mates"? If Ottox thought Matt was town at the time, why would "me and toad" be defending Matt? What makes more sense, is that he thought Matt was town, and we were defending our "2 lurker scumbuddies" by pressuring Mattchew so much. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
What do you think about my post on DrH here? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=46#916 As a further addendum, I'd also like to point out that MiltonKram didn't do anything of significance to absolve himself of DrH's suspicion between his sudden change in reads. Milton only tunneled me a bit and then retracted his read shortly after confronted. None of this should make him "clearly town" after DrH suggested a VigiShot/TrackerAction on him. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
This - he might be playing wildly and showing a blatant disregard for reading, but he seems pretty emotionally invested. Also, BC, I still really disagree with you on the "scumslip" thing (post below). I think it's pretty clear he was talking about 4 mafia, thus making it pretty unlikely that he knows the exact mafia total (given balance concerns) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=47#921 | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Voting is mandatory. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 11:59 austinmcc wrote: I'm not discussing the numbers crap and the scumslip. However, this part of your post has been addressed by numerous folks. The explanation is the bit about how doing a scummy thing and then quickly backing down might have looked scummier, so he had to stick with it, which he proceeded to do vigorously. As to your case on Steve Nash's teammate, I don't love it. I DO think that milton just got the times mixed up, that's a legitimate explanation from me. You can call it outright lying, but I just came from a game in which I thought 2 or 3 things had been said that weren't, and where one of our medics claimed to protect a dead person one night. I was town, he was town, we both "lied." It happens, and frankly, if you're talking about an actual fact (x happened before y), you're not talking about something scum can twist for their objectives, it doesn't really further scummy objectives when anyone can check the order and call you out. I think that's a legitimate reason to go into changing your read on someone, especially when almost 24 hours elapsed between the "vigis/trackers on this guy" post and the next mention. You can argue that if his read changed there should be a post when that happened, but...not enough for me to find Steve Nash's teammate scummy. Moreover, he had one of those little quotes that sticks out to me as something that only a townie could have written: That's not just an idea that should get you town cred, it's just a weird little thought thrown into a bigger post of his, and, in my mind, it's not what I'd come up with if I were just thinking about how to get townies to think I'm townie. I've said all I need to say on Ottoxlol. Considering his emotionality and unreasonableness during his defense of Mattchew, it reads pretty clear to me that he doesn't know allignments. I doubt he's scum caught in bad allignments, considering how many opportunities town gave him to back off his reads. He could've taken any one of them and looked fine, not scummy as you suggest. Him hard-defending Mattchew is nonsensical from a scum perspective - it shouldn't even cross his mind to defend Mattchew once he's confirmed scum by the moderator if he knows player allignments! As for my case on DrH, it has nothing to do with my suspicions on MiltonKram, so I'm not sure why you bring that up. It has everything to do with the sudden shift in suspicions. I realize 24 hours elapsed, but take a look at MiltonKram's filter. Between his case on me and his last post (neutral questioning of BillMurray), he does nothing to alleviate himself of suspicion or make him seem more townie. Also, you missed a key part of one of DrH's posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=40#795 1. People who went actively or softly against the Mattchew lynch: Ottoxlol/Gravan 2. People who came in after Palmar confirmed it and made fluff posts 3. At least one active person, probably Bill Murray. He's seemed to focus a lot on people like MiltonKram/Hapahauli neither of whom are scummy at all and meanwhile his rhetoric/language seems very much an attempt to buddy up with me or other people. Look at point #2 - that's exactly what Miltonkram was doing, and in the very same post, he calls Mitonkram "not scummy at all." This makes absolutely no sense. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Regarding the List - Again, I'm not saying that DrH needs to find Milton scummy. If he found Milton null, that would be fine, but "not scummy at all" is a blatant contradiction considering who he's suggesting the town to analyze. After that post, it would make more sense for him to take a closer look at Milton rather than give him a town read. Regarding why it makes him "scummy": Well first off, I'm not suggesting a vigi-shot on DrH or anything like that. I just found something suspicious in his filter that I want him to answer (since he hadn't been answering before). As for why it makes him "scummy," my interpretation is that he forgot about his read on Milton. I've seen this read with more active-mafia metas in other games (See Risen forgetting his suspicions on ShadySands D1 of Deathnote Mini Mafia). Also, It makes sense, considering that he wanted to use "townie Milton" as an excuse to point suspicion at Bill Murray (point #3). | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 12:51 Toadesstern wrote: Is Rewok a smurf or a new guy? Judging from the filter and his /in post, he looks new: Can I still /in? This sounds like fun. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Still think you should reconsider ottoxlol, or atleast try to look through his filter through a townie perspective once. What you call "not pushing his reads" looks a lot like him getting lost and frustrated in an argument. Lastly, I still want miltonkram to get shot up by a vig tonight. No changing that. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 13:37 Z-BosoN wrote: @Bill Murray I fail to see anything special on that interaction. Could you be more specific? Also, I think I have a decent case on Maverick. He clearly showed that he isn't worried about scumhunting. For the third time, can any clear-thinking soul respond? ffs Just read it. Your premise is that he's defending himself more than he's scum-hunting, and I don't necessarily think that's a scummy trait. As a newer town player, it's pretty easy to only enter the thread when you get attacked. In fact, he's pretty obsessed with defending himself whenever he makes a contribution - take a look at this: That being said- I'd like to draw a little bit of attention to the first voter for whom I feel like I can make an actual observation on- Toadesstern. The reason I want to focus on that is just because of the speed at which he strikes out just makes me wonder why that's beneficial from a town perspective? And I'm just wondering if he just wanted to try to promote chaos right away?? Also- consistently attacking other posters seems to be a trend.... This reads as really townie to me - it's not a good "case" by any means, but he shows a trend of sounding legitimately offended that people are voting for him. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 13:44 BlackMamba24 wrote: ... Even if he is caught up in his arguments, there is no town-aligned explanation to how he intentionally ignores the answer to his own questions to continuously push his agenda. That indicates, to me, that he has a forgone conclusion and is not interested in actually thinking about it. ... I don't think "ignoring the answer to his own questions" is scummy. Like it's pretty clear he's not thinking, but that's not a scummy trait. Pushing one's agenda also isn't scummy. Also, having a "foregone conclusion" reads to me as raving-insane confirmation bias. The #1 thing I'm considering is if he's playing with extra information (known player alignments as mafia). To me, there's no way this is the case. If he knew Mattchew was scum, he wouldn't defend him after the lie was confirmed. It's not a "too scummy to be scum" defense - it's more of a "mafia would not think like this considering their information advantage" defense. Looks like we're reading into this completely oppositely, so it's probably best to leave it at that. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 13:56 Z-BosoN wrote: Thank you! Being defensive is a general trait everybody has. But my main problem is that he said S&B had a red flag and was suspicious. Wouldn't a townie, even a newer one, be more insistent on this? I can't think of myself saying someone is really suspicious only to not bother attacking him at all.. If anything, I think newer townies are generally more passive in pushing their reads. They are generally lost and don't know how to push a case. I'd be more worried about this if he pointed a red flag against SnB and hadn't pursued it for several days. The one thing that really gives me a town read on him is his trend of drawing suspicion to himself. He constantly acknowledges the FOS's against him and does so in the most confrontational way possible against his assailants. This strikes me as much more townie than mafia. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319120&user=174863 Maverick is also pretty lurky in the early game, so I don't think his activity is indicative of his alignment. He really doesn't make too many significant contributions until mid-game, and he shows somewhat of a similar mentality to this game - slight pokes and prods, and an objection to an early vote. I'm not sure completely what to make of his "OMGUS" stuff against people who FOS'd him. It still reads as slightly townie to me (calling attention to himself), but he has yet to respond to any significant case against him. I really haven't seen anything in his filters that blatantly goes against his gameplay this game. Leaning town on him, but I hope to get more outta him in the next few days. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 14:32 slOosh wrote: Yea, I considered the new player stepping into the big stage being timid, but his history includes Space Station (big, themed game), and Aperture (the craziest game of all time), and you can see him standing his ground, speaking his thoughts, making stances. So he isn't timid, he isn't busy, he isn't afraid to do what he wants but this game shows a contradiction to his normal town play. Well Mav definitely isn't timid this game, considering that his main suspicions are those who FOS'd him. In Aperture, he doesn't really stand his ground until mid-way through the game, and coasts until people cast significant suspicion on him. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 16:16 BlackMamba24 wrote: Actually, thanks for pointing out his meta. It's completely damning. As town ottoxlol is not very aggressive, tries to be helpful and defends himself very actively. In this game he is very aggressive and extremely negative, gets caught up in arguments with a completely different attitude/tone. In Area Mafia he asks questions, seems to listen to other peoples posts, makes a lot of posts addressing general points rather than picking people apart and discrediting them. Ottox has done nothing to defend himself in this thread. Interesting. Anyway, vig hit ottox. Regarding Ottox Meta is a really dangerous road to go down when dealing with this type of player methinks. It's very easy to pick out the differences when his overall mentality seems the same to me. Being aggressive/angry isn't mafia-oriented. Think about it from his perspective; he thought he was being reasonable ("helping town discussion"), and a bunch of people railed on him for pages. That would make anyone angry/aggressive/whatever. Also, not defending ones-self when emotional is pretty understandable. In fact, there are parts of his meta that go to his favor; his stubbornness, his activity level, etc. This is the last I'll say on Ottox, but I'll restate my main point one more time: "Mafia Ottox" would have known Mattchew's alignment. Given this, it makes no sense for Ottox to hard-defend Mattchew after the lie is confirmed. Think about it - you know your teammate is mafia, and you know the entire thread knows he fakeclaimed. He just lost a member of your team, and his first impulse is to hard defend him?! Not only that, but to roll with it for pages?! Blinders man. Blinders. Regarding Miltonkram Let's talk about a hypothetical player within the factual setting of this game. The player's filter consists of:
I would shoot this hypothetical player on the spot, regardless of who his case was on or whatever. There are no blinders - this is the only lurker that I can attribute mafia-motive to so far. If you look at his filter, that's exactly how one would expect mafia to react to a buddy getting confirmed scum in the thread: Fluff intro post --> "lolscumslip" post --> ##Vote post "oh hey this guy is also scummy" post --> "my case is bad, chill out i was tired...errr...can you explain this suspicious thing to me BillMurray?" post Miltonkram's head needs to roll ASAP | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 06 2012 23:02 DarthPunk wrote: ... You have not answered me previously so I will ask again. Why are you so intent on defending who you seem to believe to be town Otto? Especially when you have leapt all over other players for far less scummy actions? There is no scum motivation. Think about what the objectives of hard-defending a teammate as mafia are. The goal of hard-defending a teammate is to prevent their lynch. It’s pretty clear that defending someone after they have 20-something votes on them is not going to prevent said lynch, so how can it be a mafia objective? It’s not a mafia objective, it’s screamingly bad townie. By contrast, If the lynch was close between two candidates, hard-defending makes sense from a mafia perspective. It’s not smart, but there’s mafia-motive. Regarding the whole “Mattchew was stupid therefore Ottox could be stupid mafia” – that’s a load of BS. As stated above, there’s a huge difference between stupid and mafia-motivated stupid. So as for your questions: I don’t find Ottox scummy. I see a lot of town motivation (even if stupid) behind his actions. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 07 2012 00:39 Z-BosoN wrote: Like I said, my mention issue with him is not lurkiness and being defensive, those are just toppings. It's the fact that he mentioned he has a red flag on someone, and did not pursue. His last game, regarding this, doesn't say much, but it does say that he is capable of making cases and establishing arguments, something in which he has not done this game yet, despite accusing someone of being highly suspicious. Yes he is capable of making cases, but he didn't in the early game of his townie games. That's more of a mid-game thing for him, and I don't think it's indicative of his alignment. While I lean town on him, it doesn't mean that I'm letting him off the hook by any means. I just think his behavior so far is not indicative of his alignment, and this is consistent with his meta. I think there's much more we need to hear from him, but I don't think he's extremely scummy or anything like that. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Welcome back - where the hell have you been? Did you not just read my damn post? I told you exactly why it's not scum motivated. The town motivation lies in him questioning a read he believes not to be true. Stupid? Absolutely. But as stated above, NOT mafia motivated. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 07 2012 01:00 Shady Sands wrote: Fell behind in this game and never got the chance to catch up. Voted Mattchew in this thread and got warned for it =S Alright, got it. I'm still leery of players like this though, because if this is how he plays town, are you sure we want him around at MYLO/LYLO? Yes, because there's a pretty good chance he's town. Again, does this make sense as mafia? This is the last I'll say on Ottox, but I'll restate my main point one more time: "Mafia Ottox" would have known Mattchew's alignment. Given this, it makes no sense for Ottox to hard-defend Mattchew after the lie is confirmed. Think about it - you know your teammate is mafia, and you know the entire thread knows he fakeclaimed. He just lost a member of your team, and his first impulse is to hard defend him?! Not only that, but to roll with it for pages?! Key here is the information advantage of mafia. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 07 2012 01:11 Z-BosoN wrote: Yes there might be! It would fit his meta as posting without thinking! The first instinct a scum would have is defending his little buddy. Nevertheless, you CANNOT use that as an argument to lower suspicion on someone. It boils down to WIFOM, how do you know that he didn't want you to think that? This exactly what I did, as scum, in XIV, I tried to desperately voteswitch on YH last minute thinking it would make me seem townie, but it had the extreme opposite effect. It can easily be both things, so no conclusion can be drawn from his actions. The reason I am inclined to think it goes on the scummier side of the fence is because of his meta, of how he just go ahead and sends posts without thinking about them. I am not convinced he is scum (I was after the "scumslip", but as you pointed out, it might have been meaningless as it implied having four mafia), but right now I am convinced that he is our best lynch. I don't think your case on Milton has enough on him to a point where he seems more scummy than otto. Not at this moment anyways. Can you explain this point in made on him: A couple of questions he never pursues? I don't recall this from your posts. Also, why is When backing down from bad case, he passively questions another player pointed out to him w/out taking a stance" scum-motivated? Also, if you want to include not going after his scumreads, making bad contributions, and general lurkiness, why do you still choose him over Mav? I personally think mav seems scummier because, unlike milton, he didn't even bother making a case on anyone. To me, that's scummier than making a bad case, as townies do it all the time. Big misapplication of "WIFOM." There's nothing WIFOM about it - there's no mafia objective that can be seen! Regarding your voteswitch on YH at the last minute, that's a hell of a different scenario. You were wildly inconsistent on YH, hence suspicion on you. Does Ottox look inconsistent about Mattchew? Hell no - he was up to his eyeballs in confirmation bias. I'm done discussing Ottox. You all are running around looking for suspicious things in his filter and ignoring the one thing that makes him blitheringly townie. He is not thinking like mafia. If he knew allignments, defending Mattchew after having his lie confirmed does not make any sense. Defending a confirmed mafia member and doing everything to attract attention to yourself when 20+votes are on said mafia member does not make sense, especially if you're 99% sure to get shot for it the next day. Regarding Milton - Milton is doing the bare minimum to act like he's contributing. His bad case (regardless of it being against me or not) doesn't help him. Also, his case was filled with misinformation as opposed to bad logic. The latter is townie, while the former is not. It's consistent with scum trying to contribute without actually contributing. Regarding Mav - We're just reading him differently. Again, I need to hear much more from him before I make a solid read. His meta suggests that his play so far is not indicative of his alignment. Bad townies are perfectly capable of not making cases, especially given the atmosphere of D1 (voting for confirmed scum, huge temptation to slack off). | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I believe the misinformation distinguishes him from the other lurkers in a scummy way. It's interesting that you bring up the whole "attacking active townie" thing, because the post he attacked me for was on page 2 (out of 6) on my filter. Seems pretty silly to determine who and who isn't an active townie only 2 hours into the game? For all he knows, I could go lurker-king after his accusation. Why should attacking a vocal townie or not determine whether or not he's mafia? Mafia-objectives are to cast illogical-suspicion to push for lynches; this is the core of their win-condition. Anywho, we can agree to disagree. Arguing will get us nowhere if neither of our scumreads are posting. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 07 2012 03:31 Z-BosoN wrote: ... Agreed, then. Shifting over, what is your take on H1's case against forumite? Forumite's vote + Pre-emptive defense looks really off. What really catches my eye is the bolded part below: Reading through the thread, my vote on Matt looks kind of odd. I made it after I got a PM-confirmation from Palmar but before I saw Palmars post in the thread. Why do people fakevote, then say "lol, I never really voted!" It´s irritating. Making a vote in this thread might not count but I think it´s bad form. Similarly it´s bad to stealthvote in the other thread without confirming it here. If you want to pressurevote, do it for real. ... After defending his "odd" vote, he goes and picks a fight over an issue that no one really brought up. What's the point of bringing up "fakevoting?" It doesn't read to me as genuine, and considering his relatively lacking filter, it bothers me. Also, his first post is suspicious to me: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=13#259 He walks into the thread, nitpicks 4 players, and walks out. Again, suspicious. I think Hopeless's case deserves attention. Forumite's pre-emptive defense of his vote should be catching some eyes. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
##Vote Miltonkram @ Grush On September 07 2012 07:31 grush57 wrote: Hmm, goodkarma suiciding on BC the vet I guess. Plus we got rid of Ottox so gj viggies Shouldn't you... uh... NOT be happy vigi shot a green role? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Well last night may have been a blessing in disguise considering GoodKarma flipped red. Now I'm going to be very careful going through GK's filter, since it's entirely possible his later posts are WIFOM bombs if he was planning to suicide-bomb people. However, from his earlier posts, I think we can make some educated opinions about player alignments. As a general note, I'm a bit surprised to see GK kill himself - losing 2 scum before D2 is a pretty big deal, which indicates to me that the current scum are comfortable playing from behind. (Might have to retract my Miltonkram vote based on this) Note: I'm especially wary of his fliter because he tried to buddy me all thread. I get the feeling this was an effort to get me lynched by association later in the game. GK's "suspicious lurker" lists First off, we need to decide when GoodKarma switched into "suicide mode." I find it unlikely that scum designated that GK would suicide bomb at the time he posted these lists. GK goes really silent after tunneling Ottox for a bit, and it's at that point that I believe GK locked into the suicide bombing. Thus I think we can infer a reasonable amount from these lists. Namely, that the people on them are very unlikely scum. On September 04 2012 18:38 goodkarma wrote: ... But we still should be trying to create a pro-town environment going into day two. Along those lines: The guiltiest lurkers are listed as follows, in no particular order: Gravan, austinmc, imallinson, Strongandbig, Miltonkram I look forward to hearing more from these people in particular. That being said, you can expect from me tomorrow afternoon (~12 hours from now) a case writeup highlighting my current scum reads. ... On September 05 2012 09:27 goodkarma wrote: ... Grush is at modkill-threshold. I don't expect he's going to be around all that much longer. Until he makes his first post, I consider any time spent pressuring him as a waste. On the other hand, Gravan, Lvdr, austinmc, maverick, ShadySands, and ShioPi all stand out to me as semi-lurkers. Some of them seem to have legitimate reasons (such as ShadySands), but that doesn't mean they aren't scum with legitimate reasons. ... As a side note, I really believe Gravan is town. GoodKarma mentions him casually too many times throughout his filter for him to be mafia IMO. Also he leads off with Gravan on both lists - this indicates to me that he wants to push him as a lynch. That's really all I'm willing to infer from this for now. I'll get more to this later. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=16#319 GoodKarma's first post FOS's Z-Boson on pretty inconsistent reasoning. He also interacts with Z-Boson a lot (who was attacking GK's logic) and I'm pretty comfortable with it being a genuine exchange. This is all generally consistent with my meta-read on Z-Boson as well, who's much more active in the thread than in his scum meta in Newbie XXIV. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
##Unvote Miltonkram http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=32#636 This post was made very early in GoodKarma's filter, and indicates to me that Milton is actually town. That's it for a while, more to come. As for Forumite's suspicion against me, believe what you want about "buddying up." I highly question your motives, and I'll have a lot to say about you later tonight. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
BroodKingEXE He has two very suspicious posts regarding two confirmed players: Mattchew and Ottoxlol. A bit before Mattchew is scum-confirmed (right around when a few players start voting for Mattchew), Broodking posts this unbelievably wishy-washy opinion on Mattchew. On September 04 2012 16:20 BroodKingEXE wrote: About Mattchew (who I think is town): Here's my breakdown of the situation : Matt's roleclaimed and given two reasons he claimed to avoid mislynch and/or draw a mafia shot. At first glance the roleclaim seemed like a great idea, but as I thought about it there were just too many holes. My initial thought was that it was a good idea and that could have been Matt's (based on the reasoning too). Another problem I find with lynching him is that what he has done (roleclaim) isn't verifiable until he is lynched. Right now its a coinflip and I haven't seen anything else that suggests he is scum. Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch, they're not even able to be confirmed until the lynch, so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy. Look at the logic - he first thinks its a great idea, then there are "too many holes." He doesn't want to lynch him because his "roleclaim isn't verifiable until he is lynched" - the hell? He said he's town originally, then says "its a coinflip" Then he says "Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch" and wants to wait until "mattchew sounds scummy". Again, the fakeclaim is the entire reason everyone voted for him. But wait! Two pages after the fakeclaim (and before Mattchew posted anything in the interim): On September 05 2012 00:12 BroodKingEXE wrote: Unvote ##Vote: Mattchew Wow. After stating earlier that the fakeclaim wasn't enough to lynch Mattchew, he votes Mattchew for that very reasoning. His viewpoints on Ottoxlol are the nail in the coffin: Goes from top scumread: No, his response was belivable based on posts he made after his sloosh interaction. Ottox has replaced him [ed note: Broodking's scumread on Toad due to the fact that he is pushing a "Matt is an assasin/townie scheme" instead of pushing his scum read toad. Then proceeds to push cases against Miltonkram, Shadysands, and Gravan while Ottox is his top scumread: Then says strange things about potentially townie Ottox while keeping a scumread on him. filter My 2 cents about the Ottox thing. I played with him in Area 53 and he's as stubborn as a mule. I could see him trying to derail a lynch from a town perspective. I just don't get why as town he wont push a lynch canidate (in all seriousness his isn't doing much to push toad or hapa). That's why Im keeping a scum read on him. Then SOFT DEFENDS OTTOX when talking to DrH On September 06 2012 16:03 BroodKingEXE wrote: It was later in the game from what I remember, just that he doesn't really listen (or ignores) others logic. BroodKingEXE is scum! ##Vote BroodKingEXE | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 07 2012 13:12 Maverick32x wrote: @DoYouHas- Solid defense, and you're right- I was probably tunneling too hard on filters. I still think the reliance on 'Meta' is not a reliable way to contribute to THIS game... @Forumite- I guess we have different perspectives when it comes to scum hunting? The majority of players are town.. so wouldn't it be smarter to do some 'innocent until proven guilty'? As opposed to just blasting everyone because everyone else is doing it? All this being said- I'm wondering if we should just lynch a lurker? I feel like allowing scum to lurk is a bad plan? Howabout lynching BroodKingEXE - what do you think? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=54#1062 | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 07 2012 14:48 Bill Murray wrote: id love to lynch maverick or hapahauli why are people voting BKE? can i get a summary of the case? BKE "Fail-Bussed" Mattchew Read the bolded segment below (occurs right before Palmar confirms the Mattchew fakeclaim). On September 04 2012 16:20 BroodKingEXE wrote: About Mattchew (who I think is town): Here's my breakdown of the situation : Matt's roleclaimed and given two reasons he claimed to avoid mislynch and/or draw a mafia shot. At first glance the roleclaim seemed like a great idea, but as I thought about it there were just too many holes. My initial thought was that it was a good idea and that could have been Matt's (based on the reasoning too). Another problem I find with lynching him is that what he has done (roleclaim) isn't verifiable until he is lynched. Right now its a coinflip and I haven't seen anything else that suggests he is scum. Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch, they're not even able to be confirmed until the lynch, so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy. BKE states that fake-claiming isn't enough to lynch Mattchew. Hell the entire post is wishy-washy for reasons I pointed out in the case earlier. It's a very scummy post overall, but the "fake-claiming" bit is the most important, because BKE turns around two pages later after the mod confirmation and does this: On September 05 2012 00:12 BroodKingEXE wrote: Unvote ##Vote: Mattchew Wow. Mattchew hadn't posted anything in the interim to, as BKE put it, "sound scummy." BKE went from not wanting to lynch Mattchew for a fake-claim, and then when everyone jumped on Mattchew, treated the fake-claim like a huge scum-slip. That's all you need to know really. It's indefensible. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=21#412 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=24#463 They are 4 hours apart. The first occurs after Sloosh, Me, and DoYouHas initially for Mattchew, before Palmar's clarification on the "Nosy Neighbor." The second occurs right after the burst of votes for Mattchew after the clarification. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 07 2012 21:59 imallinson wrote: Wow that flip with regards to the Matt vote is pretty damning. I don't see why a town player would ignore what he had just said just because other people were voting against it. I'd be very curious to see what BKE had to say about it. ##Vote: BroodKingEXE I'm still suspicious of Gravan (BKE trumps that at the moment). I'm not really buying the "he is newb town" argument, his filter still looks more scum than town to me. If BKE flips red, Gravan is 100% town. GoodKarma and BKE talked about him too much (and BKE was highly suspicious of him) to be a scumbuddy. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 08 2012 00:30 Maverick32x wrote: I have a list at home. Your label is 'Ultimate Lurker'. So.... That seemed reason enough. Are you concerned about the bandwagoning that is occuring? What makes you trust that their reads are correct? So are you voting ShiaoPi because he's the "Ultimate Lurker" or that he's scummy? To be honest, it sounds like you're really reluctant to comment on BKE at all. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
He already soft-defended BKE earlier on this page, and has this fascination with lurkers when he himself is a hardcore lurker. Coincidentally, BKE and GoodKarma also have posts showing a tunnel-ish attitude toward lurking players. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Any updates? Town/Mafia reads or otherwise? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 08 2012 03:12 BroodKingEXE wrote: I've got a break to post. The reason I didn't like the idea of voting for a fake-claim is because short of Mod-confirmation, we wouldn't have any way to confirm BC's theory 1. I switched my vote because the fake-claim was confirmed and Mattchew had made no attempt to explain the fake-claim from a town perspective 2. 1: That's pretty clearly a misrepresentation of your post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=21#412 Firstly, you weren't even thinking about the mod confirmation. Your quote below proves this: ...Another problem I find with lynching him is that what he has done (roleclaim) isn't verifiable until he is lynched... You explicitly state that his roleclaim isn't viable unless he dies. You very clearly weren't thinking of mod-confirmation. 2: Misrepresentation again. Palmar confirmed the lie 5.5 hours before your ##Vote post. You're telling me that you only gave Mattchew 5.5 hours to address his fakeclaim before you were convinced he was scum? You played off the entire thing as a mega-scumslip. Also, you explicitly mentioned that you weren't going to vote him based on the fakeclaim, and only if his posting was scummy. Fakeclaims aren't good basis for a lynch, they're not even able to be confirmed until the lynch, so I cant vote for him unless his posting sounds scummy. In what way does 5.5 hours of Mattchew's silence describe this complete 180? It doesn't. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Full Case: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=54#1062 Summary/Emphasis on Scumslip: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=54#1080 | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Read this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=54#1080 There's no rational reason why town BKE would make such a wild 180 in such a short time. When the bandwagon was starting on Mattchew, he expressed reservations and didn't vote him to protect his teammate. He explicitly stated that he didn't think a hypothetical fake-claim was a good enough reason to vote Mattchew. THEN, he votes Mattchew 5.5 hours after the confirmation with only the word "wow." It's pretty clear that he's treating it as a mega-scumslip from Mattchew now. No rationale, no reasoning - all of a sudden when everyone votes Mattchew, he consents to it in a way completely inconsistent with his previous actions. It's pretty clear that BKE forgot about his previous post and bussed Mattchew to blend in. Also, fun fact: he never voted Mattchew in the voting thread - he had his vote on Toadsstern officially the whole time. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 08 2012 04:46 Maverick32x wrote: That's awesome news then. I'm struggling because of the timing of his posts... And I'm not able to check them now... I'm concerned that people are using the "hindsight is 20/20" logic. Such as- well now that we know Matt is scum... Anyone who associated with him scum. So I guess looking at the time will be important.... That being said- I want to see how much Back to training ill clarify later. This is not my argument at all. In fact, BKE doesn't interact with Mattchew much at all. It's his attitude towards Mattchew's lynch that's proof of his alignment. And in mafia, "hindsight is 20/20" is actually a pretty good way to go about things. In mafia, you always make inferences from the past. Every time we get more information (alignments, flips, etc), we can infer more and more information from past posting. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Yah, that sentence should make BKE an insta-lynch. Also, if you're not convinced, check out the 2nd half of this post here and look at his views on Ottoxlol: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=54#1062 | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Does Grush hard defending BKE make him scum? I have no idea what hallucinogens he's on. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
That "goodbye" post looked so scummy to me, and I find things like this to be huge scumtells: tl;dr / Summary so far:
That leaves us with Foru and DrH. DrH still feels odd although I can't put my finger on it. Foru feels way to cautios when he's posting. 1) Toad had been screaming that he's "town" throughout the day. This is pretty excessive considering there's very little reasoning why he should be considered town at all. 2) Toad says he's town, then gives a bunch of reads without any reasoning. Like read his goodbye post, then read the quoted selection. He never gives any reasoning for his reads. 3) If toad thinks he's going to get shot, why is he claiming town??? This is the most absurd thing ever. Anywho, I have a scumread on toad, but I want BKE lynched first Good stuff Z-Boson | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 08 2012 08:12 Toadesstern wrote: wat? Number 1 was already explained and I said I did that on purpose. 1 Number 2 was already explained in the post itself as I said it's already quite a wall of text and I don't want to spam up the thread even more. I don't feel like posting way more cases right now either for that reason. We've got a bunch of cases and there's no need to spam more right now. 2 Number 3 is supposed to mean what? I claimed town, so what? Think mafia is going to shoot me because they now know I'm town, which they knew before I "claimed" as well? It's not like I claimed a role. Claiming town makes no difference about whether or not I'm going to get shot. It's not like they're going to say to themselves "crap, that dude just claimed town, we've got to deal with him NOW".3 1: You said you did it on purpose, and it had already served its purpose. There was no reason for you to continue doing it after alerting the thread to your "ploy." However, this ties more in to my response in #3 2: The last thing you should be concerned about when making a "goodbye I'm going to get shot" post is spamming up the thread, especially when you believe you have critical information that could help the town. WTF is the point of pointing out your reads to other players in a goodbye post if you're not going to provide your rationale? 3: It's more of a scumtell that marvellosity described to me a while back. When someone's trying to tell you they're town and tell you a bunch of other people are suspicious/scummy/whatever (without reasoning to boot), they're likely mafia. But claiming town literally makes no sense in the context of the post. It's a goodbye post. There's no reason to claim town in a goodbye post. If you think you're going to get shot, why the fuck would you claim town? It's pretty goddamn self-evident. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 08 2012 15:58 BroodKingEXE wrote: Guys this lynch is not happening. Its like 12:00 PST I'll make a good case in the morning, but Im forced to say Im Watcher. Night One I visited BC and got back GK -_-. This is impossible no? If GK indeed suicide bombed as many of us are assuming, isn't this a pretty obvious lie? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I think all of us agree that the likely order of events last night consisted of double-stacking one person, while suicide bombing the other (between BC and DrH). BKE's watcher claim suggests that it was BC who got double-stacked and BM24 who got suicide-bombed. Now unless something about the Day2 post suggests otherwise, this seems highly unlikely. BC was much more of a confirmed town (after outing Mattchew) than DrH was. To the average reader here, BC would seem like much more of a target for blue actions (watcher, medic, etc.) during the night. Isn't it much more likely for mafia to have suicide-bombed BC? There would be a much higher chance of blue's visiting BC after he caught the first mafia. I find it so unlikely that DrH was suicide bombed (over BC), and this is why I'm doubting the BKE claim. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 02:35 DarthPunk wrote: This is irrelevant and not evidence. Regardless of your own opinion, mafia could have Bombed DrH and NK BC. It is possible. and thus BKE's claim is possible. Your preconceptions on what you would have done does not necessarily reflect what others did, and thus this in no way disproves BKE's claim. I'm not disproving anything - I'm saying it's highly unlikely given the dynamics of town Day 1. I'm talking about likelihood here. If you disagree with this, tell me why instead of spouting this "irrelevant" nonsense. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 02:44 Toadesstern wrote: I thought the same thing but than again, what's the point of claiming he watched BM24? If he's mafia he could as well just swapped it and made it the other way around. He could have easily said "sup dudes, watched BM24 yesterday and BC got suicide bombed" as frankly most people expected it that way. What I'm taking from this is that he's telling the truth about who got suicide bombed either way. If he's mafia he said that because he didn't even think about it the other way around and just claimed what really happened + a fake for himself. No need to lie about who got hit / suicide bombed. If anything that's just more chances to screw up somehow if someone tracked him or watched something else. If he's town he said that because it really happened that way. Well said, and I guess this does explain why no blues were killed last night (since most of them probably targeted BC). Given your analysis, I consider the claim to be null. He's telling the truth of what happened last night either way, and he'd have access to this information as blue or mafia. I'm still going to be pushing for his lynch given the litany of scummy behavior in his filter - namely the Mattchew fail-bus which I think is indefensible. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 02:47 strongandbig wrote: yeah so i just read through za-bosom's filter. I agree with austin that there is stuff not to like there, but I think two things. 1. his case on goodkarma seems genuine. What I mean by that is it doesn't just seem like casual distancing, but rather an actual attempt to point out problems with his filter. Now, this doesn't mean that boson isn't mafia - they could have already known they were going to use the suicide bomb. But it seems a bit early to be saying 'bro your filter sucks and is inconsistent' in the thread rather than in the scum qt. 2. he hasn't really followed up his case on maverickx since the start of day2 - interesting. Yeah so atm I'd kinda rather lynch bkexe, but in general I think boson is definitely someone to keep a sharp eye on. Disagree on Z-Boson for now for three reasons: #1 - GoodKarma's opening post was an FoS on Z-Boson #2 - The GK/Z-Boson interaction seems reasonably genuine (they are not small, uninvolved conversations) #3 - My own meta read of Z-Boson (from his mafia-meta in Newbie XXIV) suggests to me that he's town based on activity and casewriting. All of this combined, and I'm leaning pretty heavily town on Z-Boson. I think there are many other lynch priorities over Z-Boson. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Also, personal attacks =/= scum. To me, he sounds pretty pissed off that you made a bad case against him, and I agree fully. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Okay admittedly I'm a bit biased because of my meta-read, and I sat down to take a look at your case again. The one thing I want some answers from Z-Boson is his ##Vote post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=21#413 I just don't understand what he's saying here. It's as if he criticizes the reasoning for voting Mattchew, then turns around and votes Mattchew. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I have no idea what happened with the NK's night one. They put a single stack on BC and presumably suicide-bombed DrH. Might have been a medic-save somewhere N1 - that's the only explanation I have. Going to take a dive through some filters tonight. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 07:19 Kreb wrote: Ok, gonna have to start asking a bit of question here to get into things. First, who is DrH? Cant find any name or role fitting that. BlackMamba24 = smurf for DrHelvetica (a.k.a DrH) | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Since BKE flipped town, this caught my eye: On September 08 2012 01:27 Rewok wrote: TBH with you, I'm a little hesitant to lynch BKE. I'll vote for him because it's better to get some blood than no blood, but it wouldn't hurt to open our search up a little bit. Don't we have more than 24 hours left? Personally, I've had Mav on my radar for awhile because of posts he had on both Mattchew and Ottox (will find them later - gotta run to work now.) And this recent ShaoPi thing seems rather fishy as well. So here's my ##vote BKE, with the readiness to unvote it and switch it up if we find someone better. First he's hesitant to lynch BKE. Then he wants to vote for him because "it's better to get some blood than no blood" - NOT because he thinks BKE is mafia. He then points fingers at two people (Mav and ShiaoPi). Vigi shot anyone? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
First of all, I don't like you making posts criticizing BKE's play. I'm still a bit stupified from the result, but in retrospect, he did all he could to defend himself. @Hapa: I don't like how you ignored/didn't see this possibility. Also, you hopped on austin's poor arguments needlessly, as it was clearly not going to get anything done, and even questioned a distant post I had made. His case against me seemed genuine (but stupid), your decision to hop on it + not even considering this point I made about a BKE fakeclaim out of the blue, after having said that you thought I was a "confirmed townie" did not. Austin doesn't necessarily have a poor argument. Your Mattchew Vote post does not make you look good. I know I mentioned that I thought you were town based on GoodKarma's filter, but the more and more I think about it, the more and more I think that GK's filter was a massive WIFOM mindbomb. I never said you were a confirmed townie I said you were "likely" town, and I'm going to have to throw that assumption out the window for now. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 08:42 Z-BosoN wrote: 1) Yea, jumping around his vote, ignoring his own cases, and looking to join the bandwagon with most votes on it seems extremely defensive. 2) How does it not make me look good? What's the theory? Are you gonna throw me in with the other dozen of people who could have maybe soft-defended Mattchew? And dare you not use the GK argument, as I have shown it to be terribad, and you actually agreed with it. Also, I don't absolutely neglect looking suspicious, my concern with you is more related to the timing of when you chose to go after me. What could you, as town, have possibly hoped to accomplish? The town focus should have been on validating the BKE lynch. Do you agree with this? Don't dodge, answer: yes or no. Did you read my post? Both you and austin have ignored the most important part of my post. Like I've stated, I think focusing on the veterans, for this night, should be ideal, as I have reason to believe at least one of them is. @ Z-Boson How does it not make me look good? What's the theory? Are you gonna throw me in with the other dozen of people who could have maybe soft-defended Mattchew? Theory is simple - why attack the person pushing the lynch and seemingly criticize the argument behind the lynch... then end up voting for the lynch. As town, it would make more sense for you to full-on support the lynch with your post. I find that stuff scummy, but no where near definitive (hence me not bolding your name red). Did you read my post? Both you and austin have ignored the most important part of my post. Like I've stated, I think focusing on the veterans, for this night, should be ideal, as I have reason to believe at least one of them is. I agree with you. I stated somewhere before in my filter that scum were willing to sacrifice GoodKarma. The scumteam's willingness to part with another member after the Mattchew lynch tells me that the scumteam was not afraid to play from behind. They must have been in very good standing after Day 1. There's a reason why they went all out to kill the two best scumhunters in the thread night 1. The town focus should have been on validating the BKE lynch. Do you agree with this? Don't dodge, answer: yes or no. Well of course yes, though I don't know what exactly the purpose of this question is. Also, I don't absolutely neglect looking suspicious, my concern with you is more related to the timing of when you chose to go after me. What could you, as town, have possibly hoped to accomplish? I thought I had BKE nailed as scum and was comfortable to pursue other reads. Again, your ##vote post really stands out to me. I'll have to read your filter and decide whether it makes you scummy or not. That's all. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
However, I do think we should look into vigi-shotting [b]ShiaoPi[b]. Shiao is hardcore lurking in comparison to his other games as VT. Absolutely no content in Shaio's filter, and there are a couple of posts that fingerpoint like mad: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=47#929 Shaio originally wasn't posting because of "internet concerns." I believed Shiao at the time, but now it's becoming a habit. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 11:42 Shady Sands wrote: Why are you calling for a vig shot on Shiao for lurking and no call for a vig shot on me for lurking? I'm fingerpointing too. Do you think you're a better vig shot than Shaio? Do tell. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 12:14 Shady Sands wrote: I agree. Hapa's usually a pretty good scumhunter. [b] His posts on Ottox in particular are just strange; almost inviting a vigi hit on Ottox but backing away enough to give himself plausible deniability. Town Hapa (in Newbie Mini XXIII) didn't play like this. You're full of it. Admittedly I thought Ottox was suspicious for a little while, but quickly turned around and [b]hard defended him when I started to think straight. Your bolded comment makes me think you didn't read the damn thread. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
As for why over you - you actually have a filter. Not reading is also consistent with your town meta. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 12:31 Shady Sands wrote: Or you turned around and hard defended him once the wagon got rolling and was nearly unstoppable. Your motivations here could be spun any which way but the truth remains that[b] town Hapa didn't play this way in XXIII. Describe this to me in detail while I sit back and giggle to myself. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 12:37 Shady Sands wrote: Why? What has he posted that shows a scum read as opposed to bad-town? 1) ShiaoPi has a reasonably active town-meta. ShiaoPi has no scum meta. 2) ShiaoPi is hardcore lurking this game, "internet issues" cited, but were not mentioned pre-game (odd, considering severity). His activity is very different from his 6 town games. He certainly hasn't posted anything that makes me think he's town. Some other newer players have posts that show effort, but ShiaoPi has shown none. As far as I'm concerned, the above makes him scummy. If he'd like to defend himself and convince me otherwise, he should take the opportunity to do so. Should I hold your hand too, or will that suffice? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Put-up or shut-up. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 12:14 Shady Sands wrote: I agree. [b]Hapa's usually a pretty good scumhunter. His posts on Ottox in particular are just strange; almost inviting a vigi hit on Ottox but backing away enough to give himself plausible deniability. Town Hapa ([b]in Newbie Mini XXIII) didn't play like this. Oh haha I missed this - weren't you ranting for pages about me cheating in that game and getting lucky? Sounds like someone twisting meta to their own advantage. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 12:53 Shady Sands wrote: Right, because nearly starting a counter-wagon to the BKE mislynch on grush57 does not qualify as a read. And in case you're wondering, right you and him are my top scumreads. You made a case on GRush - if you think that's an actual read, you either haven't seen GRush play or you're smoking something that I want real bad right now. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 13:15 Shady Sands wrote: Cases and reads are equivalent. If you think they're different, then, you, sir, are the drug addict. So you made a read on Grush. You started a counter-wagon against someone who is traditionally the easiest mislynch in the game - someone who is going to behave just like that regardless of alignment. Yay for reads that matter! Still waiting for an answer to this btw: On September 09 2012 12:52 Hapahauli wrote: Oh haha I missed this - weren't you ranting for pages about me cheating in that game and getting lucky? Sounds like someone twisting meta to their own advantage. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 13:18 DarthPunk wrote: Why are you upset that we wanted you to provide a reason for you Vig shot? and Shady is right. his meta is also WAY WAY off from all his other games. and yet you single out Shiao. I'm pissed because you didn't read my initial reasoning. Reading rainboowwwwww. Well then, am I wrong about suspecting Shiao? Secondly, if you feel that Shady is equally scummy, and deserves my suspicion/whatever, why aren't you questioning him? Really strange person to buddy in the thread. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 13:22 Shady Sands wrote: What does grush's prior meta have to do with the fact that he's behaving anti-town? If a player traditionally trolls all the time like YH or Chez, do we just give them a free pass? 1) you're championing a worthless read - he [b]always is anti-town regardless of alignment. 2) you can call it a "free pass" or whatever, but as it stands, there's no indication if he's town or scum. I like my chances building a case on a player that's actually readable at this point in the game - better than a 75/25 town/scum chance on Grush (or however the town/scum numbers are in this game). | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 13:29 Shady Sands wrote: If he's always anti-town, shouldn't he be a more valid target for a vigi hit than a lurker? So you want to vigi hit a bad player rather than scum? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 13:28 Shady Sands wrote: Anyhow, here's why I think Hapa needs to get whacked: D1, he soft-defends Mattchew until Sloosh gives him an easy out... then immediately tries to divert to Miltonkram. Hard pushes Ottox, then goes back and soft-defends him once the entire town is on the wagon. But when a lynch is on the line, pushes on BKE wagon regardless of what other people say. Why? He says BKE is scum because BKE went from a hard push on Ottox to a soft defense of Ottox. Pot. Kettle. Black. This + scumwagon on BKE was enough to get town to vote him. Finally, Hapa is usually an excellent town player. I have no idea why scum is letting him live this long, nor why he hasn't contributed better original reads than the ones he has. ##Vote Hapahauli You ain't reading Shady. You never have, and you never will. I'm not going to defend the stuff on Mattchew/Ottox whatever - if you read my filter, I give the reasoning for every single one of those. The bolded is proof that you don't read the thread. I created the case on BKE, I pushed for his case based on much more than his vote for Ottox (Mattchew "fail-bus"). Thirdly, you think scum would shoot me over two of the best players on TL? (DrH + BC) Lol. Like if you're town, you're doing your damndest to look as scummy as possible. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 13:32 Shady Sands wrote: Basically, a lurker playing off his meta is a little less pressing a concern than someone who actively goes around and shits up the thread while making themselves unreadable. Why? Scum will never kill them, so they'll end up surviving. As the game draws closer and closer to MYLO/LYLO that player becomes more and more damaging to town. I made that mistake with Chez in Normal Mini III and I'm not making it again here. So stop being a pussy about it and call the shot. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
So you felt that Ottox was town despite the fact he was scummy as shit. And you think Grush is town Despite looking scummy as shit. But you were 100% positive on BKE and tunnelled him all of day 2 without changing your read or your case because he 'flip-flopped' on Matt. DESPITE HIS CLAIM and with several of us making counter arguments? Based on Flip flopping on Matt. Good lord. I didn't think Ottox was scummy when I was defending him. For the 10000th time, hard defending confirmed scum isn't scummy - it's horribad town, and I made that clear so many times. Yes I thought BKE was scummy. That's why I pushed for his lynch all day. I didn't believe his claim, as with like 16 other people in the thread. I posted this on day one. You ignored it. Z - boson was similarly guilty. If you thought BKE was scum based on his interactions around Matt then you should have found Z - Boson suspicious also. And yet you don't mention him at all UNTIL Austin brings him up. So what? I didn't pick up on it. The fact that I actually acknowledged it with austinmcc should tell you that I took it seriously when I found it. Again, at the time, I had a town-meta read on Z-Boson. I'm leaning town once again on Z-Boson after looking through his filter a couple of hours ago. You repeat what I posted day one and what Austin had been saying. It is suspicious as hell and yet you continue to tunnel BKE. And state that Z - Boson is town. You are being very selective on who you believe is scum/town and it is based on no shared thought processes from what I can see. I explained this already. You don't read. I was convinced BKE was scum and pursued other reads. And don't give me this selective shit. I've made the most reads out of anyone this game. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
If he's always anti-town, shouldn't he be a more valid target for a vigi hit than a lurker? Basically, a lurker playing off his meta is a little less pressing a concern than someone who actively goes around and shits up the thread while making themselves unreadable. Why? Scum will never kill them, so they'll end up surviving. As the game draws closer and closer to MYLO/LYLO that player becomes more and more damaging to town. I made that mistake with Chez in Normal Mini III and I'm not making it again here. On September 09 2012 13:40 Shady Sands wrote: No, I'm calling for the shot on you and calling for the lynch on grush. I know I can get grush lynched, given how anti-town he's playing. You're a tougher nut to crack, especially with scumbuddies and misguided townies to soft-defend you. Lol sup scum. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 13:53 DarthPunk wrote: So you pursued a town read on Z-boson? Is that what I am missing. You obviously don't read as you fail to understand the point. Where the hell do you get that from? I had a town-read on Z-Boson at that point in the game and was pursuing other reads (MiltonKram). Why would I pursue someone I have a town read on. My question is, if you found Z-boson so scummy, why didn't you pursue your read on him? You found Z - Boson Townie and BKE scummy despite doing extremely similar things based on the Mattchew flip which was the basis for you entire case. Did you read my case on BKE? Clearly you didn't. I found BKE scummy for the 180 change in opinions over two posts. Z-Boson doesn't have another post to compare to. So you have made the most reads in the game? Too bad this means jack shit. And that does NOT EXPLAIN YOUR MOTIVATION. So you admit you're wrong about your "Selective" thing? Please read my 9-page filter and decide my "motivation" then. Let me make it clear. You are a heuristic that process the same information and arrives at different conclusions. That is why you are selective. I said jack shit about the quantity of your posts. I am talking about the content. But thanks for trying to once again derail the discussion. That's not the definition of selectivity that I know of. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
This reeks of town on town violence, and I'm done with it. Quite frankly I'm sick of getting tunneled by two townies who aren't reading my posts. Goodnight sirs and see you tomorrow morning. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
w/e, believe what you want. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 14:04 DarthPunk wrote: Right so because Z -Boson did a 180 degree in ONE POST and not TWO BKE was scum and ZB was town? Goddamnit you make it so hard for me to sleep. BKE was scum because of the 180 + other scummy stuff in his filter (ottox stances). I was wrong, and a bunch of townies were wrong with me. In the context of Z-Boson's play, I think he's town. Yes I find that post suspicious. Yes I acknowledged it with austinmcc's play. Yes I was thinking about that post earlier this night. However given the rest of Z-Boson's play and looking at his scum filter in XXIV, I think Z-Boson is town. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Why didn't you pursue your read of Z-Boson? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
You posted this on Z-Boson, and NEVER followed it up. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 14:11 DarthPunk wrote: Because I am lazy. Matt was being Lynched and Z- Boson seemed to post a lot better later on. But lolz why wouldn't town pursue Z-Boson readz if they find it scumy lololololololol Clearly t3h scum lol. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 14:11 DarthPunk wrote: Because I am lazy. Matt was being Lynched and Z- Boson seemed to post a lot better later on. But in all seriousness, you're blaming me for not pursuing Z-Boson when we were on the exact same page about why we thought he was town? | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 14:19 DarthPunk wrote: No. I am blaming you for tunnelling BKE and not even considering BKE could be town despite his claim. Even though you had made peace with another person being town whom was guilty of the same things you used in your case on BKE. And I DO NOT think Z - Boson is town. I am suspicious of him as I am of you and of everyone in this game. The only town reads I had were of BC and DrH. Let's go back to our states of mind at the beginning of D2. At that point, we both thought Z-Boson was town yes? At that point in the game (thinking Z-Boson was town based on meta), I went back through filters and saw BKE's post. I had no such meta read on BKE and thought BKE was scum. As for why I tunneled BKE without considering he was town - I thought he was scummy as shit. I had no reason to believe he was town. Should I have believed he was town in hindsight? I don't know. I liked my case and it was wrong. Shit happens. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 09 2012 14:40 slOosh wrote: Cool your heads - this is probably more detrimental than beneficial. Vig, decide for yourself what you want to do with your second bullet. Cross reference what you take out of the BKEXE mislynch with the Mattchew lynch and a lurker list. Well on the bright side, I got two strong town reads out of it. Anywho, it's almost 2am. Gnite for real this time. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Finally, Shiao's only standing read is an OMGUS against Maverick. Strongly suggest shooting him tonight. Also, I won't be as active for the next few hours, so I wanted to comment on... Bill Murray This is mostly based on his actions (inactions?) during the BKE lynch. Right around when I dropped the case on BKE, Bill Murray had a burst of 6 short posts, all compiled into one larger one for your convenience: id love to lynch maverick or hapahauli why are people voting BKE? can i get a summary of the case? Hapahauli's link doesn't count = 13 lines of rubbish he linked ON THE SAME PAGE If Doyouhas is town we don't lynch Hapahauli If Doyouhas is scum we lynch Hapahauli imo I'll be here for a few hours if anyone would like to discuss anything I had a post about associative tells, but honestly, I'm not even going to bring another one up. I'll be waiting to push someone on hard evidence, like what I found (not saying it was my case.. but filtering him, it glared out at me... so i found it as well) on Mattchew. I summarized the case for him and never heard back from him. The only post he made between there and after the lynch is this weak-sauce soft-push of BKE: On September 08 2012 15:40 Bill Murray wrote: considering... like... people (a guy named xelin, off the top) have had nosy-neighbor roles before? i disagree w this This is the only post he makes during the BKE push. Note that he doesn’t take a stance and simply disagrees with BKE’s defense. Then, after the BKE lynch... i cant believe you all lynched BKX You all need to listen to me, even if I've been drinking lightly. All of a sudden, he acts as if he was against BKE the whole time. Now I’m not sure if BillMurray is capable of doing stuff like this as town (his normal posting is scummy after all), but this specific thing seems scummy as hell to me. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Bill Murray reads to me like he didn't give a shit who got lynched on D2. Regarding ShadySands "case" or whatever I find most of the reasoning insane, so I'll dispatch of this as quickly as possible: This + Hapa flipflopping on Ottox, while remaining adamant about BKE based on the same reasoning that led him to flip-flop on Ottox himself. If Palmar has put a vet in the scumteam, Hapa looks like the biggest candidate. Already replied to DarthPunk's post, and he looks satisfied enough not to pursue it. I thought Ottox was town because he consistently hard-defended Mattchew. The more I saw him hard defend Mattchew, I eventually became convinced he was bad town. Yes, I thought BKE flip-flopped on Mattchew in a scummy way - BKE never explained his rationale for it and made a complete 180. I don't know what about this is "inconsistent" As for the Palmar putting a "vet" on the scumteam, how the hell am I a vet - this is my 5th game and 2nd non-newbie game? Hell why are you speculating on how Palmar chose teams? Plus within the bounds of your argument, Mattchew is a vet and already flipped red. 1) Hapa is playing off his meta while ignoring my shift on meta. 2) Hapa is being very selective/arbitrary in his scumhunting, and so far has led us to mislynch someone. Note that neither part of #2 is scummy on its own, but when taken together, are a clear scumtell. You still haven't described how I'm playing off my meta. You keep pointing to Newbie XXIII, while ignoring my scum-meta in XXII (where I was incredibly consistent in my reads I might add). Wtf does "selective/arbitrary" mean? I got a read wrong, shit happens. A mislynch doesn't make me scum. I find it strange you're blaming me for a mislynch considering our "history" together. You've been spouting stuff about how I'm a good scumhunter and wouldn't lead a mislynch based on Newbie XXIII, when in fact, you've otherwise been consistently accusing me of cheating/getting-lucky in that game. You need to explain this. #1 and #2 taken separately aren't scumtells. When someone puts them together and decides its a scumtell, they're on hard hallucinogens. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I'll have to look at his filter more if I'm alive tomorrow, but I still think he's town. @ Toadsstern - I'm starting to agree based on the post where he declared me and Maverick his top scumreads. He was really eager to jump on the BKE wagon (that I, one of his top scumreads, pushed), and spent most of the day tunneling BKE. He hasn't attempted to follow up on his reads on Maverick or I since that post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=361826¤tpage=53#1045 His lack of pursuit of Maverick especially bothers me, because he spent most of his early-game tunneling him. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On September 10 2012 06:16 Toadesstern wrote: I think I've seen Shady twice in newbie games and the general idea about his town meta seems to be something along the lines of "not posting at all, lurking not contributing" so I wouldn't say his play is off meta-based at all. Yeah it's hearsay because I haven't played with him myself but that's not a reason to lynch him. If it is you would have to say BM is mafia as well while we both seem to agree that BM looks somewhat townish. Shady looks bad because of posts that just scream "LYNCH ME" like those: I will say that while Shady has recent active scum and town meta, he did play a lurky mafia style in Newbie XXIII (both the aborted game in the beginning AND the reset game). That being said, I don't think his lurkiness is necessarily an indication of his alignment. I don't think he as mafia would go after me with a case when I have a reputation of OMGUSing the shit outta people, | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Summary in case I get shot: I have my eye on Bill Murray and Forumite for reasons posted earlier in my filter. I also have somewhat of a lesser-eye on Sloosh - even though he was the first to vote Mattchew, looking back at his filter, I do find it odd that he was so sure that one of BC or Mattchew was scum, even though I agreed with him at the time (they could've both been town). Also, he sheeped several cases on D1. Call it a gut feeling, but I think there's something to discover there. | ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
| ||
|
Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
GG! Props to ShaioPi for navigating through the endgame of my nightmares. | ||
| ||
