|
On September 06 2012 08:28 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 08:24 BlackMamba24 wrote:
seriously, vigilantes need to kill ottox the dude is 100% scum please don't go retard-mode and think he's town over some wifom I'm having second thoughts about ottox. He reads to me like a horrendously deluded townie. Think about it - he hard defends Mattchew. That's absurd from a scum perspective - especially AFTER Mattchew was confirmed. It doesn't read like ottox really was playing with the extra information (knowing allignments), he would have STFU long ago. Combined with the fact that he seems genuinely upset and has been pretty active, I'm going to retract my suspicions on him. I think he's a bad bad bad townie. I'd much rather vigi-shot MiltonKram at this point, I'm wondering why you thought he wasn't scummy in your earlier post after the lynch.
because there are clear and very mafia-aligned motivations behind what ottoxlol is doing that make zero sense from any other perspective
"too scummy to be scum" is a BS argument dude, ottoxlol needs the noose
|
That satisfies me. I've been playing this game pretty lazily regarding certain aspects. I hope if I die and you survive be the voice of reason and push Ottoxlol as hard as you can. Read his filter and try to justify him being town. You can't. Everything reeks of mafia motivations. Too many gullible towns have fallen to arguments like "too scummy to be scum" and other ridiculous things like that before.
Vigilante, hit Ottoxlol. I have a feeling Gravan is going to die but I think we should hit Ottox and push to lynch someone else tomorrow, we'll probably get more productive discussion out of that and thus catch more scum.
|
You're right, just because ottoxlol defended someone who flipped scum says absolutely nothing about his alignment. If you paid attention, you'll notice that has very little to do with why I'm saying he's scum.
I just read MiltonKram's filter. He made a simple mistake regarding timing with DarthPunk, he voted for Mattchew, put a little pressure on you and you overreacted. Sound familiar? I've made worse mistakes in this game. Completely overlooking Goodkarma's vote which was the whole point of my case on him, etc. but you never called me out for that? Take the blinders off.
You remind me a bit of youngminii, a player who was otherwise okay but as soon as anyone questioned him or FoS'd him he'd flip his lid. He actually shot me twice (once as dayvig once as nightvig) when I was town because I was suspicious of him. Good times.
|
and don't coach me hapahauli please lol i've been here a while i don't need it
|
On September 06 2012 09:04 DoYouHas wrote:Now that we are sure about Matt, I think I have found scum in Hopeless1der. Hopeless and Broodking are the two people who posted cases on people other than Mattchew (Forumite and Toad, respectively) in the time period between when BC's attack and Palmar's confirmation. This I think is a very important period of time because the uncertainty of the town on how to deal with BC and Matt makes it the best time for scum to try and divert the wagon of their scumbuddy. Both Hopeless and Brood's cases could have been made with that intent, but I see Hopeless as scum easier than I see Brood. Brood had expressed his distaste for Toad earlier in the game and just doesn't fit the reluctant busser as well as Hopeless. I have already taken issue with some of his case on Forumite Here. But when you combine his case with the post he made a page earlier. You have to admit that it looks awfully like he is attacking BC (the main proponent of a Matt lynch) and then trying to divert to another target. Not convinced this is what he was doing? Here is the first line of his case on Forumite: Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 13:18 Hopeless1der wrote:
Supposing we table the nosy-neighbor discussion(which appears to still be going strong), I would like to point out my take on Forumite:
Moving on to his "voteswitch" Show nested quote +On September 04 2012 23:45 Hopeless1der wrote:
1.I never actually did vote in the first place, but anyways:
##Unvote: Forumite
##Vote: Mattchew
2.Reasoning: See the entire fucking thread. 1. - He never did vote Forumite. this reads to me exactly like he was trying to use his case to divert the Matt bandwagon, and after Palmar confirmed the fakeclaim, is trying to save face. (Funny how nobody seems to call him out for this voteswitch despite searching for defenders of Matt.) 2. - He doesn't seem to happy to be switching to a guaranteed fakeclaim that is very likely scum right here, odd.
After Hopeless' vote has settled onto Mattchew I note 2 more things that read scummy to me. First, in these two posts (1)(2) Hopeless jumps at the chance to be the information provider, a very easy way to 'contribute' and with someone as inactive as Hopeless a definite scumtell. Second, Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:19 Hopeless1der wrote:
-snipped massive nested quotes-
The whole point of his case is that you pushing DP wasn't a real scum read, it was errant Day 1 bullshit. Which most of the thread was at that point. I still think he's scummy because that's a shitty case at the time it arose, but it's reasonably consistent, despite the misinformation. This waffley statement is definitely something I would expect from scum.
To sum up, I think Hopeless1der fits a reluctant busser that is trying to slide by extremely well and I want to lynch him ASAP.
we should lynch doyouhas too, this is a post that was definitely posted in the scum qt a few times my intuition is flaring up like crazy over this
|
So because he lurked he's the scummiest player in the thread? So have a lot of other people. A lot of them are probably blues or ninjas.
Ottoxlol jumped on you immediately when you posted a picture like 10 seconds into the game before anything happened.
On September 04 2012 07:34 Ottoxlol wrote:
so many lurkers, no wonder scum is skewing the thread their way
He's unreasonable and negative from the beginning. His case on Toadesstern consists of Toadesstern ignoring his questions but he did answer the questions.
"Since no one made a case other than he's lying therefore scum. " This is untrue. He keeps repeating things like this that are false. Multiple people came up with other reasoning, especially me and BC. Later he lies and said I never explained my reasons even though I did, directly to him. He continues to get more and more belligerent. This is very odd behavior for someone who is simply defending "another townie".
His only other attack on Toadesstern is "nice scum slip there".
You think that counts as pushing? Sure, he was caught up in his argument but his argument was almost all straight up lying and ignoring people. He continues to say that no one has any reason and ignores me and BC saying over and over about Mattchew's lack of defense, lack of analysis, lack of any town actions behind his fake claim. You don't just look at a lie or a slip and lynch someone, but Mattchew had NOTHING that indicates a pro-town attitude behind it. Who gives up that quickly before the mod even confirmed the lie? Scum. It didn't make sense any other way but instead of finally responding to reasons beyond "he lied" he just ignores it and continues to say no one provided any.
|
That was an impulsive reaction and reading your filter, comparing it your town filters, it checks out.
@DYH
|
EBWOP should say "Why is mattchew scummy" not "why is maverick scummy" earlier
|
On September 06 2012 10:20 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 10:17 DarthPunk wrote:
Where is Shady? He had a 5 page filter Day One in my last game with him and loves to take a town leadership position right off the bat as town. I can understand your meta changing somewhat in a non-newbie/ game of this size. But this is a dramatic shift in style. Which game are you referring to. I would like a reference so I can get an idea of his town playstyle.
I was in Death Note Mafia with him and he was very active and aggressive in the early game. Could be blue/ninja though so it's best left until actually actively scummy people are all dealt with before we start looking at no-shows.
|
im not an idiot so i don't feel the need to inform the thread every single time my reads shift or i change my mind because it's cluttering
i tried talking to you before in death note mafia hapahauli and it didn't work because you are stubborn and horrible at scumhunting so im going to actually ignore everything you said
you're obsessed with milton
your whole case hinges on the fact that my reads seem to be changing which is something that happens to everyone. get a grip.
|
On September 06 2012 12:45 Hapahauli wrote:
Another point: I find it strange that DrH is willing to see "bad townie" in MiltonKram, but is completely unwilling to see any "bad townie" motivation in Ottoxlol. From my perspective, I think it's pretty clear that Ottoxlol is a deluded townie, and DrH really hasn't even considered the other side of things. He's been incredibly aggressive at getting Ottox vigi-killed - and this was all before BC brought up the 5-man team "scumslip" (which I still believe is a misinterpretation, but we've argued enough of that).
yeah scum me, is incredibly afraid of ottoxlol the guy that doesn't push his cases and just attacks everyone and creates chaos
your little thing about how miltonkram lurked after voting for mattchew, yeah that is bad, yeah he should be considered, but i don't think over ottox right now. basically, miltonkram is a lurker who falls in a group of players where scum is likely hiding. however, that is not enough to lynch or kill right now because a lot of people fit that description.
first lynch actively scummy people
then look into lurkers and pressure them when there's nothing better to do
go ahead and keep pressuring miltonkram,t hat's a pro-town thing to do but i'm by no means defending him and going after people for not worshipping your case is egotistical but not in a helpful way.
im not gonna validate you with responses anymore, people might think you're worth listening to
|
when i say not scummy at all that's equivalent to null read i.e. i read his filter and nothing jumped out at me as particularly scummy
|
On September 06 2012 13:04 Bill Murray wrote:
weird interaction between kobe and austin there, too, and coupled with him slipping in his wording? potential scumteam
uhhhhh do you know anything about basketball
lakers starting 5:
Steve Nash PG
Kobe Bryant (#24, nickname is the black mamba) SG
Metta World Peace SF
Jordan Hill PF
Pau Gasol C
until dwight howard gets off injury at least
he's jjust making cute basketball references. steve nash and kobe are literally on the same team.
|
yeah that was all really messed up, sorry. I was angry because it seemed to me that everyone was ready to just let ottox slide, you never really gave any reason for anything you said. You voted for Mattchew pre-palmar (still doesn't give you any town cred) and then didn't post until the night comes. I don't really think you're in a position to point fingers at people for lurking considering that.
What's wrong with questioning BloodyC0bblers alignment, do you know his alignment? Because I don't.
|
I missed BM clearing Maverick or forgot about it until later, I don't know if I mentioned that. Sloppy play. Doesn't mean anything.
Anyway, are you gonna push to lynch me now?
It's funny so many people are sour on me attacking BC (back when no one believed him lol) when he says himself he would have done the same thing.
|
On September 06 2012 13:41 Hapahauli wrote:
@ DrH - I'll drop it, that's pretty much all I needed from you - same type of defense as in DN + I'm willing to chalk an inconsistency up to active play. Might be something worth looking into if somehow you're alive on Day 4, but otherwise, I'm satisfied.
Still think you should reconsider ottoxlol, or atleast try to look through his filter through a townie perspective once. What you call "not pushing his reads" looks a lot like him getting lost and frustrated in an argument.
Lastly, I still want miltonkram to get shot up by a vig tonight. No changing that.
I did and it's a lot harder to justify as town than scum
Even if he is caught up in his arguments, there is no town-aligned explanation to how he intentionally ignores the answer to his own questions to continuously push his agenda. That indicates, to me, that he has a forgone conclusion and is not interested in actually thinking about it.
I even sat for a moment cause some of his first questions seemed pretty pro-town to me but it's not like scum don't try their hardest to sound pro-town when they can.
|
On September 06 2012 13:50 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 13:40 BlackMamba24 wrote:
yeah that was all really messed up, sorry. I was angry because it seemed to me that everyone was ready to just let ottox slide, you never really gave any reason for anything you said. You voted for Mattchew pre-palmar (still doesn't give you any town cred) and then didn't post until the night comes. I don't really think you're in a position to point fingers at people for lurking considering that.
What's wrong with questioning BloodyC0bblers alignment, do you know his alignment? Because I don't. You are right with the lurking - I got caught up with my little thing with DYH and haven't been lucid with my full reasonings behind each accusation. I do not however think it warrants misinterpretation or discrediting like that. There is nothing wrong about questioning BC's alignment, but you flat out said the Mattchew thing is alignment-inconclusive. This is beyond what I consider "healthy" paranoia, but that may be because you know what scum BC is capable of. Additionally I still don't see where you say "my read of Maverick was a misunderstanding", nor how that is the logical flow of reading the related posts.
I've been thinking about it. It's inconclusive and BC isn't cleared by any means. Mattchew could have been an intentional bus. I was very sure that it was when the night started but since I've thought about it more I don't. The reason I no longer think it was a bus was because Mattchew did lightly defend himself early on but was passive about it, as though he were setting up for others to defend him later. If they were scumbuddies together, they would have put on more of a show than that.
The Maverick thing went like this.
1. Night is over, I'm convinced ottoxlol is scum
2. Can't believe how many people are saying ottoxlol shouldn't get lynched or hit/etc.
3. Had my suspicions earlier about Bill Murray and remember him going in on DoYouHas and Maverick32x (specifically after I did, on both of them iirc)
4. Saw other people say the same stuff about Maverick.
5. Assume they are parroting BM (I overlooked his post where he retracted his accusation against Maverick) and I feel this may be a way of defending ottoxlol.
Hopefully that clears up my train of thought a little more. I'm all over the place and rarely take it upon myself to ever explain to town why my reads change when they do or when I change my mind. Whoever it was that came out with a case against Maverick did so fairly convincingly and I'll have to reread Maverick's meta to be sure. Basically, I think Milton/Maverick/Gravan/etc. all deserve a good look but there is such a thing as priorities.
@Haupa, You're prioritizing Milton because he attacked you and argued with you. Take the blinders off. You misread me in Death Note Mafia and made a terrible terrible case against HiroPro and you never seem to know when to drop it or prioritize. I understand you think ottox is just too bad or too disruptive to be scum but other people have come in and explained it pretty adequately. If I were scum, I'd advise him that he has to roll with it. Since no one besides me really and BC are pushing him, he could easily get out of it.
If BC/BM someone who knows me well is scum, they know I can't stand it when people attack me. It always throws me off majorly. I feel like Ottoxlol is an agent of disruption. And I know I'm a broken record here but LISTEN.
When townies make arguments or ask questions, they are curious. They are looking for answers or trying to get responses from people that indicate a certain alignment. That is not ottoxlol's intention. His intention goes far beyond "I think Mattchew is town so we shouldn't lynch him."
He provides very shaky reasons for Mattchew not being able to be scum that had already been set-up for him by others who speculated that Mattchew could be making a bad town aligned or third-party play. I thought he sounded pro-town when he brought up how other lynches like this gave little to no information but he kept on saying something very key (and I'm paraphrasing)
"You're lynching Mattchew for lying. However, no one has provided reasons as to why his lies or behavior are actually scummy."
Now, this isn't true. I provided them personally here:
On September 04 2012 20:46 BlackMamba24 wrote:
Oh, some suspicious notes about Mattchew before I go to bed
1) never outright accuses BC of lying and doesn't OMGUS at all, takes passive role in defending himself. result of implicit guilt?
2) hints at the fact that he might be blue without outright claiming. if he has reason to suspect BC is right he knows he's getting lynched and needs to claim right away. scum, unlike someone who is actually blue, need a considerable amount of time to think about a second claim and plan with the mafia, his posts during the time i was arguing with BC read to me like he was stalling while trying to think of something
3) by saying that BC must have PM'd Palmar he's basically admitting that BC is right that he was lying but yet does not actually defend himself for it which seems tbh really strange to me from both a town and scum motivation. he says "devils advocate" when he comes up with a town motivated scenario for lying as though he's trying to just tell BC what he is doing so he will drop it
i guess it comes down to what mattchew claims now
if he flips blue then that doesn't tell me anything about anyone else here really except for people who didn't say anything about mattchew until after palmar confirmed the bit about the nosy neighbor so i guess we will just have to take it as a lesson for blues from now on to be a bit more careful
i really just don't understand #3 but i have seen scum kinda give up when they get caught in lies before or martyr themselves so maybe it isn't so strange after all
Here I provide 3 odd behaviors of Mattchew that tell me he does not have a town aligned role. This is what Ottox was asking for. Other people gave other reasons, how the claim makes sense as scum because he's preemptively defending himself from a tracker whereas blue gains nothing from it except maaaaaaaaaaybe a tracker, but a tracker would defend himself, claim he was tracker, and try his best not to get lynched.
There were always other reasons. Other people kept telling him. But he never listened. He ignored that, insulted everyone who responded to him.
THEN Mattchew flips red. And instead of admitting he was wrong, he acts as though his shit doesn't stink and we're all a bunch of idiots. Not to mention misrepresenting me as a lurker or a person who voted without reason. I am if I'm not mistaken the person who went the furthest out of their way to justify the vote for Mattchew because simply lies are not enough.
SIMILARLY
Lurking is NOT a scumtell. Lurkers who behave scummily or with clearly mafia-aligned intentions are probably scum. Who else lurks?
Blues
Ninjas
Scared Newbies
People who are actually just busy
Be careful that you're not lynching one of those people. Yes, I think there are quite a few lurking/low post count scum. Look at the meta and more importantly, the content of the posts. Someone could just be busier than they were in a previous game or trying to post less but look at the way they attack people, they way they build their cases, etc. look for differences in psychology and behavior. Post count is just a number.
|
idk why i said similarly there at all
|
|
|
Yeah but look here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128&user=124671¤tpage=5
He's at least nice about it. "I'm frustrated that no one seems to be reading my posts."
The attitude is way different. filter
Good case, I can understand your reasoning.
He actually tries well and immediately to defend himself when he comes under suspicion. In this game he deflects it with insults and goes absent. The gameplay and meta is totally way different. How can you not see that?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
