EPTNewbie Mini Mafia XXIV
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Shady Sands
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Shady Sands
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On August 13 2012 15:07 Blazinghand wrote: 1 gate FE or 15 Nexus are both appropriate plays against a 1-1-1. Once you've realized a 1-1-1 is on the way, hit stride on a 1.5 base economy and pump units out of your warpgates, mostly zealots with a small number of sentries and stalkers, and make immortals from your robo. If you know he has cloak, you'll naturally be making an observer as well. Do not be afraid to chrono-boost your robo. Keep on making units and keep a stalker or two outside his base to see when he pushes out. Get out as many immortals as you can before he reaches your base. A Pylon out on the map (close to your nat, but located to flank his main attack) will let you warp in crucial flanking zealots. As your last immortal pops, push in using guardian shield as he sieges up-- your goal should be to begin moving in as soon as he wants to secure his location, and before any bunkers go up-- his first tank volley should have to make a choice between shooting immortals and zealots in melee with his own forces (or the small number of sentries and stalkers you have). Use FFs to prevent kiting, and remember he can't walk back through his own tanks. Don't worry too much about the banshees-- you'll be cleaning them up with a warpin of stalkers after the fight ends plus whatever AA you have left alive. This varies from map to map, as some maps are strong for 1-1-1 (Ohana and Shakuras come to mind) and some are weaker and give you more room to maneuver and delay him (Daybreak etc). Don't get choked up, don't overmake stalkers, and if you engage, you basically can't back off unless you've taken very little damage from his tank shots. BH is mostly right here. The hardest part about dealing with the 1-1-1 is how easily it can be disguised as a 1rax FE if you don't get an early scout in. | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 13 2012 15:35 DarthPunk wrote: Why are you buddying BH so hard? are you that desperate to establish your town cred before the game has even started?!?!? Blatant scum slip. SS IS SCUM! you heard it here first kids.  BH isn't even playing  OMGUS ##FoS Darthpunk | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 13 2012 15:07 Blazinghand wrote: 1 gate FE or 15 Nexus are both appropriate plays against a 1-1-1. Once you've realized a 1-1-1 is on the way, hit stride on a 1.5 base economy and pump units out of your warpgates, mostly zealots with a small number of sentries and stalkers, and make immortals from your robo. If you know he has cloak, you'll naturally be making an observer as well. Do not be afraid to chrono-boost your robo. Keep on making units and keep a stalker or two outside his base to see when he pushes out. Get out as many immortals as you can before he reaches your base. A Pylon out on the map (close to your nat, but located to flank his main attack) will let you warp in crucial flanking zealots. As your last immortal pops, push in using guardian shield as he sieges up-- your goal should be to begin moving in as soon as he wants to secure his location, and before any bunkers go up-- his first tank volley should have to make a choice between shooting immortals and zealots in melee with his own forces (or the small number of sentries and stalkers you have). Use FFs to prevent kiting, and remember he can't walk back through his own tanks. Don't worry too much about the banshees-- you'll be cleaning them up with a warpin of stalkers after the fight ends plus whatever AA you have left alive. This varies from map to map, as some maps are strong for 1-1-1 (Ohana and Shakuras come to mind) and some are weaker and give you more room to maneuver and delay him (Daybreak etc). Don't get choked up, don't overmake stalkers, and if you engage, you basically can't back off unless you've taken very little damage from his tank shots. Just as an aside, if you do go for this build, all the T has to do to cold counter you is blind switch reactor to factory, then go for a fast 4 hellion drop. 4 hellions will rack up at least 10-12 probe kills, and a banshee followup will instakill you. | ||
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Shady Sands
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I'm still really mad at Hapa for essentially winning on luck in XXIII. Had GK actually spoken up in the game, Hapa wouldn't have had the GK lynch to work off of and we scum could have safely NK'd him without worrying about a medic save. Howdy town. Let's kick some scum ass. A few policy notes:
That's all for now, good luck everyone. | ||
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Shady Sands
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 09:55 thrawn2112 wrote: Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player. If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK. Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference. Why are you so worried about the SK? SK is a bigger threat to scum than to town. | ||
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Shady Sands
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Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. | ||
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Shady Sands
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 10:10 Solarsail wrote: Because I've played one game of Mafia in my life, it was on another forum and that happened. But I forgot that "Newbie" in the title means that everyone is a fucking veteran and doesn't need to be told anything. I have no idea what a good post is, please enlighten me on how I can make completely flawless first posts with zero information. Stutters. Stutters said something perfectly townish which you tried to soft twist into scummy play. On August 15 2012 09:13 Stutters695 wrote: I'm not going to quote the entire post, but I'd strongly recommend the town to read Hapahauli's post following XXIII(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355874¤tpage=58#1160). Was watching that game while I was waiting for this to start and based off of his scumhunting track record it contains some good advice. Since it's probable we will mislynch we need to get as much out of Day 1 as possible. Then you say: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. You're basically accusing stutters without accusing him directly. Why? | ||
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On August 15 2012 10:12 mkfuba07 wrote: Is this normal? Just wonderin'  XXIII - goon for 0.5 then vanilla townie from then on. It isn't normal, but it should speed up our scumhunting tremendously. | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 10:11 thrawn2112 wrote: I am not really worried, but am trying to learn from other people's experiences if there is any reason to worry. I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1. Therefore I'm not going to continue posting about it until something happens along the lines of way too many unexplained town deaths. Cold evidence of an SK will happen with the second night with more than 2 townie deaths. Up until then, the best way for town to win is to focus on scumhunting. | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 10:20 Solarsail wrote: Lol you think in my first serious attempt at a game I'd start implying stuff with multiple layers of meaning? I wanted to post something day one that would at least show I had read the TL guides and was making an effort to participate. Feel free to read into it like I'm a pro though. Go on. Everyone IS DOING THE SAME THING today, which is trying NOT TO DIE AT THE FIRST MENTION OF AN INCONSISTENCY. If you don't stop I will vote you. Only scum focus on trying to survive. Town focuses on scumhunting. Why would you devote your first post to trying to show participation? | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 10:20 Solarsail wrote: Lol you think in my first serious attempt at a game I'd start implying stuff with multiple layers of meaning? I wanted to post something day one that would at least show I had read the TL guides and was making an effort to participate. Feel free to read into it like I'm a pro though. Go on. Everyone IS DOING THE SAME THING today, which is trying NOT TO DIE AT THE FIRST MENTION OF AN INCONSISTENCY. If you don't stop I will vote you. Also, could you please link your play from the other game from the other forum? So we can see your meta? | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 10:29 Solarsail wrote: Wow. Guess I'm scum then. ##Vote: Shady Sands Seriously this is not worth your amazing detective skills, case solved already, go look at someone else. Or just realise that I'm trying and shut up. LOL why are you voting me? | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 10:32 thrawn2112 wrote: Most of Solarsail's posts so far have contained quite a bit of emotion which has made his points less articulate than they otherwise would have been. Solarsail, if you are in fact town then I'm sure all the other townies would greatly appreciate it if you weren't so quick to use profanities and typing in all caps, it distracts from whatever arguments are being made. What's even more interesting that Solarsail didn't even try to defend himself from this accusation: Only scum focus on trying to survive. Town focuses on scumhunting. Why would you devote your first post to trying to show participation? Instead, he answered with sarcasm and an OMGUS vote. | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 10:32 thrawn2112 wrote: Most of Solarsail's posts so far have contained quite a bit of emotion which has made his points less articulate than they otherwise would have been. Solarsail, if you are in fact town then I'm sure all the other townies would greatly appreciate it if you weren't so quick to use profanities and typing in all caps, it distracts from whatever arguments are being made. Quick question: If you've never played with Solarsail before, how would you know whether his points are less or more articulate than they could be? Seconding your point on the profanities though. | ||
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Shady Sands
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These are the players that haven't posted yet: Darth GK Golbat Jhuyt Z-BosoN Ochrow YourHarry As a reminder, please link your filters and roles from prior games. Thank you. | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 10:41 thrawn2112 wrote: Sorry for the bother, but could you describe what OMGUS means? It's one of the several expressions I see used in the mafia forums of which I have no idea what they mean. http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=OMGUS OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, You Suck (for voting for me)!". it is sometimes used as a shorthand to indicate that you are voting for someone primarily because they voted for you. | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 10:36 Solarsail wrote: To get you to stop quoting me. It's NOT HELPING ANYONE. Go post about someone else. How is quoting you not helping anyone? Why should I post about someone else? And how does your vote get me to stop quoting you? | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 11:33 goodkarma wrote: Regarding lynch all lurkers: Yeah. Got me last game as scum with that but tbh I would have been just about as active day one as town. I still don't really have day one figured out, so don't expect me to go into hyperactive mode for day one this game. In the context of last game, it was used as a last resort which imho is the only time it should be considered. Active discussion of suspects and the cases created day one are far more valuable than trying for a "lucky lynch." And regarding the vote for Shady Sands: If you're going to make a vote try to make at least a few "case points" behind it. Otherwise we're going to have a pretty ridiculous situation where everyone finger points each other over pretty much nothing. Look at Mordanis's (who was town) play in NMM XXII. He started the game with a WIFOM case, and lo and behold was actively accused all game. That suspicion could have been better spent elsewhere, so make your cases thorough before voting please. Lastly: Now would be a great time to discuss policy. The ever-popular "lurker-lynch" policy is a great point of discussion. Also, if there's an experience that comes to mind that you feel we could benefit from via a policy feel free to bring it up .GK, could you put up filters from XXIII and XXII? | ||
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Shady Sands
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Great job keeping up the pressure on Solarsail. + Show Spoiler [Thrawn] + On August 15 2012 11:18 thrawn2112 wrote: Most of the discussion right now is about solarsail. I don't think there's anything wrong with this because so far his posts haven't seemed very useful but we have still yet to hear from several players. He could easily be town and just reacting to everyone immediately jumping on his case as soon as the game starts. In that case it would be easy for the mafia players to roll in later and pile more suspicion on solar and therefore away from themselves. As far as I could see most of the drama was based on your post asking why he is devoting his first post to appearing as town rather than use it to scumhunt. I think it's worthwhile pointing out that at the time of his original posting there were only a few D1 posts so far and not much to scumhunt on. I think right now we are still in a waiting game, people that haven't spoken up yet need to! In addition to questioning why Solarsail is devoting his first post to appearing as town, we should also be asking why he made this comment: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. Right after Stutters made the short comment about Hapa's XXIII postscript to open the game. + Show Spoiler [mkfuba] + On August 15 2012 11:19 mkfuba07 wrote: Dude, you're not helping your case. I didn't give anything that Shady had said any weight until you followed up his questions with overly emotional fluff and OMGUS. Your responses don't answer the questions he's raised, and provide nothing in the way of new content. While my read on you still says panicked townie, you have to cool off. Either respond to his questions seriously or make another case, or you're not helping town. Step it up. Playing the sarcastic martyr wins you no points. Great job keeping the discussion on track. Other than Solarsail, any other reads at the moment? @ Solarsail Note that when I began the entire train of questions at Solarsail, I was never directly accusing him of being scum: He immediately responded with hostility: On August 15 2012 10:10 Solarsail wrote: Because I've played one game of Mafia in my life, it was on another forum and that happened. But I forgot that "Newbie" in the title means that everyone is a fucking veteran and doesn't need to be told anything. I have no idea what a good post is, please enlighten me on how I can make completely flawless first posts with zero information. This is what I want everyone to focus on. Why would Solarsail do this? | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 11:43 thrawn2112 wrote: Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar? It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case. Still waiting for several people to post up... I'm gonna take a break for an hour or so and I will join back in once more people have posted. Basically I read this: Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out. And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.) The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?) Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail. ## FoS Solarsail | ||
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On August 15 2012 11:59 YourHarry wrote: @Z-boson, posting filters is pretty easy. Why not. @Shady Sands. You are accusing Solarsail of being hostile? You think scums are more likely to respond with hostility? Thrawn on the other hand is busy posting fluffs and WIFOM statement like "It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case." ##Vote Thrawn I agree here. Thrawn's first post on the SK was extremely WIFOM: + Show Spoiler [Thrawn on SK] + On August 15 2012 09:55 thrawn2112 wrote: Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player. If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK. Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference. Why is Thrawn so concerned with getting town's attention on thinking about a SK, when SK is actually a bigger threat to scum than it is to town? His response to my question was yet more WIFOM: + Show Spoiler + On August 15 2012 10:11 thrawn2112 wrote: I am not really worried, but am trying to learn from other people's experiences if there is any reason to worry. I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1. Therefore I'm not going to continue posting about it until something happens along the lines of way too many unexplained town deaths. Note the following sentence: I thought I was pretty clear that I was undecided on the importance of SK, and that if SK is unimportant in D1 it's a complete waste of time to worry about it. My current opinion is that it is something to worry about, but not on D1. Then he says he won't post about it until it becomes obvious there is an SK. Basically Thrawn is fluffing up his posts here with a mostly useless discussion. I'd like to see Thrawn commit to a case. Until then, ## FoS Thrawn2112 | ||
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On August 15 2012 12:09 YourHarry wrote: Did we just catch 2 scums?? Given that half the town hasn't posted yet, I think we should still be careful to jump into voting for Thrawn or Solar. Once the whole town has gotten a chance to talk and we have a full day's worth of posts to go off of, then I think we can say for sure who is scum and who isn't. But right now, Thrawn and Solar are looking like the leading lynch candidates. | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 12:16 thrawn2112 wrote: My last post might have seemed to be quite a stretch, but I am still of the opinion that solar's posts are somewhat likely to be emotional overreactions rather than scummy. Based on that opinion it's not a stretch to be suspicious of shady's motives and thus I made that post. All that being said, the more solar posts the more wary I am of him. All of his posts are sarcastic, attempts at humor, or name calling. Solar, you really need to make your posts more about content than your emotions so that if you are truly town we will be able to get a better read on you. Shady, the main focus of your attention on solar is based on this: I'm not sure I'm getting why you think this is scummy, could you explain? His posts since that point are what caused me to be suspicious of him, but I never quite understood the reasoning behind your initial interrogation. Not to repeat myself, but here's the reasoning: And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.) The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?) Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail. | ||
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On August 15 2012 12:18 goodkarma wrote: EBWOP: Vanilla Townie is NMM XXII Godfather is NMM XXIII Thanks GK. | ||
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On August 15 2012 12:27 YourHarry wrote: Shady, do you agree? Can you explain your reasoning? | ||
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On August 15 2012 12:34 YourHarry wrote: Right now is not the good time to explain. Really, you don't see it? This is going to get you FoS'd YourHarry. Remember this? If someone isn't forthcoming with information ("I have a read but I'm not going to share it because of blah") lynch them. | ||
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On August 15 2012 13:20 YourHarry wrote: Shady. I guess there is a small chance that I could be wrong. But if I am right, it is not a good idea to reveal this information. Let's move on for now. What is the information? Why are you so sure he's town? | ||
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On August 15 2012 13:41 YourHarry wrote: Shady, unless GK or someone starts accusing me I standby my decision. What do you think about mkfuba. He in one hand defends Solar against your case, but non-committingly adds that Solar is not acting against pro-town behavior. Scum mkfuba motivated to push Solar mislynch, expecting subsequent emotional and "snarky" behavior from Solar. Why would you wait for GK to accuse you before changing your decision? | ||
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On August 15 2012 13:41 YourHarry wrote: Shady, unless GK or someone starts accusing me I standby my decision. What do you think about mkfuba. He in one hand defends Solar against your case, but non-committingly adds that Solar is not acting against pro-town behavior. Scum mkfuba motivated to push Solar mislynch, expecting subsequent emotional and "snarky" behavior from Solar. Again, why are you so sure Solar is town? | ||
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Golbat Och Jhuyt YH, don't just take back your assertions when people ask for reasons--that's not pro-town casework. I want to know what made you think Solar was town. | ||
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On August 15 2012 17:39 DarthPunk wrote: Hey guys I have been in the Hospital all day. I kept up with the thread somewhat from my phone. Shady Sands The case that shady posted was incredibly weak. The first 'read' shady got certainly wasn't there. Even when shady clarified his reasoning it was a huge stretch. The whole 'soft accusing thing was nonsense and seems to be fabricated by shady out of thin air in order to pursue an agenda (this may be mis-lynching a townie or stimulating discussion) however something felt off about the whole thing, and was certainly not the same way shady was playing in XXII. I took a look through Shady's filter, the vast majority of posts contain one liner questions which add nothing to any cases. After this incredibly weak initial 'case' He does none of the 'scum hunting' that he has been speaking at length about nor adds to his case with anything but OMGUS until others board the bandwagon. In fact almost his entire filter is Fluff. All these posts from his filter. No scum hunting which he has SAYS is the most important thing to do. Simply policy talk, OMGUS and one weak case. then after others have actually contributed to the thread: Shady agrees with everyone who is inclined to jump on his bandwagon and congratulates them on keeping up the pressure on solar. He adds very little if anything to his already weak case yet tries to maintain momentum on this obvious bandwagon. The conclusion of his 'case' is not even a statement. It is simply a question of his motive. Something which requires little commitment and which you may easily back away from following a mislynch. What concerns me Is that he openly states that he would like everyone to focus on this. Focusing everyones attention on the mislynch of a bad townie is the perfect situation for scum. then we have this. Another weak case which follows the pattern established with his initial case on Solarsail. He takes a VERY EARLY post by thrawn and twists it into something that is at best a stretch. He accuses Thrawn of 'fluffing up his posts with mostly useless discussion' which shady himself is guilty of. And posts meaningless questions on why you would ask about a SK and presents them as some form of case. This is not the Shady Sands I saw in XXII, Something feels off. and thus, a FoS is declared. FoS## Shady Sands Given that XXII was my very first game of Mafia ever, it should be expected that my posting style has grown up between now and then. If you look near the end of the XXII game, you'll see me doing now what I was doing then--prodding people with questions and keeping the town's posting rhythm extremely high. That being said, I'm curious to know what you think about the Thrawn and Solar cases. You say they're weak. Why? | ||
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On August 15 2012 16:03 Stutters695 wrote: Good work guys. I go to play league for a couple hours and come back to this. Regarding Solarsail: I didn't see that post as a soft accusation of me. My reasoning for thinking this is that it was the second post of the game. Likewise to a few other people, the thought hadn't occurred to me until Shady brought it up. From a scum perspective he has absolutely nothing to gain by accusing me of being scum that early. Taking this as anything more than a null read currently is a mistake IMO. What's more telling currently is his responses to what should have been a joke of pressure that early in Day 1. His sarcastic arguing and OMGUS vote leave me a lot more suspicious. @Solarsail You need to stop trolling and try and get some info or you're just asking to be lynched, regardless of wether or not you're town. @Shady Sands In your first post you say that of policy that we should "stop OGMUS wars" (emphasis mine, kept the whole quote for context). Yet other than pre-game banter your only posts until halfway through the 2nd page of your filter are all about confrontations to Solarsail/defending your accusation of a very, very weak case. So far you've accused Solarsail for soft-accusing me and focused on administrative stuff (getting filters, posting who hasn't posted yet) for a combined 14 posts. I understand that you're trying to get conversation started which is great, but I noticed you missed or ignored Z-BosoN's post directed towards you about Meta-Analysis. He's asked this twice and you've ignored him both times. My question to you is: Why do you feel that getting filters is so necssary? The best way to catch scum is still to hunt in tthe thread with meta-analysis only serving as the final nail in the coffin. The repeated posts on this makes me feel like there is the possibility that you're using this to be active without really hunting (1 weak accusation and 1 glaringly obvious accusation so far). Your overall level of activity makes me believe this isn't the case but I want to hear your explination. I find filters a good way to figure out how people react to the stress of either being rightfully or wrongfully accused. For example, I tend to look at how someone responds when they're scum and they're being pressured, to then figure out better and more efficient ways to tunnel them and trap them. I think that every townie needs to have this sort of information on all other townies, in order to make this thread as stressful and difficult a place for scum to post as possible. | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 15:18 Golbat wrote: Hey guys! This is my second game (Not counting XXIII where I /obs'd after the reset). Hopefully I play better than I did in my last game t.t So far, I think that the scummiest person i've seen is thrawn. He's not really said much of substance, which is of course understandable being so early in the game, but his fixation on making sure people know there could be an SK in the game is a little bit strange. The other person I find a little bit unnerving is Shady Sands. I feel like after the fiasco that was day 1 of XXII, Shady might have learned that new players who make emotionally-charged defenses of themselves and generally overreact to being targeted by someone is a trait of someone who is town. Perhaps Shady preparing a wagon that is simple to wash your hands of after the flip ("Well he WAS acting pretty scummy") Golbat, please link your filter, thanks. Good points on the XXII read. The biggest frustration with Solar isn't that he's being emotional, it's that he's offering no logical defense of his own posting even though the entire town is asking for it. As for Thrawn, he's someone to watch out for, sure. Aside from his SK fixation though, what else about his posting strikes you as odd? Why is he your scummiest read? | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 16:56 Ochrow wrote: I feel like the general consensus is that shady was reading too much into Solar's first post, as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak. And along the same lines everyone seems to feel that Solar is now playing a pro-town style be this scummy or not I feel it is something we need to watch for as even if he isn't scum I think it will sidetrack a lot of discussions and hinder the scumhunting in general. How can you say that everyone seems to feel that Solar is now playing a pro-town style? Who has said this? | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 18:17 DarthPunk wrote: Your posting was substantially better in XXII but perhaps that was because you were masoned and then confirmed town/heavily coached by BH. Asking questions which is 90% of the content that you have provide thus far, does not constitute making cases or scum hunting. all it does is maybe evoke a response from others without actually making a case or forming an opinion yourself. A very safe playstyle. and right now after I have cast suspicion on your 'case making' rather than strengthen the cases you have made you ask me to comment. Trying to look like contributing without contributing. Asking others to comment rather than commenting. The cases are weak because the cases do not exist. They were a stretch and the reasoning behind their scumminess was extremely convoluted and nonsensical. The posts you based your cases on were in my opinion obviously null tells, and then descended into WIFOM and OMGUS without adding anything further. All further points, fluff posts, appearing to contribute whilst not contributing, you yourself are far more guilty of then they. It is entirely possible they are scum. However the weak cases you have submitted and the accompanying fluff make you far more suspicious to me at this point. I see basically two lines of accusation here. 1) I'm asking a ton of questions and making it look like I'm contributing without actually contributing anything. 2) My two cases on Thrawn and Solar are weak. In response to 1): First, since it's only 12 hours into D1, there's not much material to work off of. That's why most of the posts have consisted of throwing around questions rather than 400 word case posts. Second, evoking responses, at this stage of the game, is critical. Without a solid base of accusations and counter-accusations in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. In response to 2): I'm not certain how you can say your own case on me is any stronger than the cases I've put out on Thrawn and Solar. You seem to imply that since I called out Thrawn for being WIFOM/fluffy, and according to you, I've made more "fluff" posts than he has, then I'm more suspicious. But the case on Thrawn didn't rest on being WIFOM, it rested on the fact that Thrawn led off with an extremely long and odd rant on the SK; the case on Solar likewise didn't rest on that sort of accusation either--rather, it rested on the fact that he was actively being hostile to the town rather than defending himself AND his first post on what the scum was thinking was extremely suspicious. | ||
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Shady Sands
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YourHarry This post was what caught my attention: On August 15 2012 13:28 YourHarry wrote: Actually I find mkfuba suspicious. Although I think Solar did act somewhat scummy (and I voted him at one point), I think Solar is town. There were four people who thought Solar was scum: Shady, YourHarry, thrawn, and mkfuba. After three people expressed suspicion on Solar, Mkfuba opportunistically but non-committingly fuels Solar bandwagon: Mkfuba posted something that was perfectly townish which YH tried to twist into scummy play. So then I decided to look through YH's filter and this is what I found: 1) Scum need to look like they're trying to catch scum. YH has been voting (not just FoSing) Thrawn and Solar without critically examining the cases at hand. His casework has basically consisted of the following train of one-liners: On August 15 2012 11:59 YourHarry wrote: @Z-boson, posting filters is pretty easy. Why not. @Shady Sands. You are accusing Solarsail of being hostile? You think scums are more likely to respond with hostility? Thrawn on the other hand is busy posting fluffs and WIFOM statement like "It could be that you, as mafia, know he is town and are taking advantage of solar's emotional reactions by drawing them out even further and immediately sidetracking everyone onto solar's case." ##Vote Thrawn On August 15 2012 12:03 YourHarry wrote: OK. ##Unvote ##Vote Solarsail "Imagine how scared of posting you would be if you'd signed up for your first game and rolled Mafia. Your posts would be short, infrequent, and not hold any information that disagrees with the general direction so as not to stand out." On August 15 2012 12:06 YourHarry wrote: I think solarsail is scared ... On August 15 2012 12:09 YourHarry wrote: Did we just catch 2 scums?? On August 15 2012 12:09 YourHarry wrote: Shady, don't leave us. Let's find the third scum. On August 15 2012 12:24 YourHarry wrote: Never mind. I am confident Solarsail is town. Move on. ##Unvote 2) Scum fabricate excuses to find someone suspicious. These excuses can be found using common sense. Look at how YH is accusing Mkfuba--he's basically saying that Mkfuba is scum for calling out Solar's refusal to engage in pro-town behavior. That's extremely strange. Why? 3) Scum try to look suspicious of someone in no danger of being lynched so they can't be found guilty of pushing the lynch of a townie. This is where his sudden unvote of Solar and switch to Mkfuba look extremely strange. At a time when every single person who was posting was calling out Solar for being anti-town, YH comes in with this pair of posts: On August 15 2012 13:20 YourHarry wrote: Shady. I guess there is a small chance that I could be wrong. But if I am right, it is not a good idea to reveal this information. Let's move on for now. On August 15 2012 13:28 YourHarry wrote: Actually I find mkfuba suspicious. Although I think Solar did act somewhat scummy (and I voted him at one point), I think Solar is town. There were four people who thought Solar was scum: Shady, YourHarry, thrawn, and mkfuba. After three people expressed suspicion on Solar, Mkfuba opportunistically but non-committingly fuels Solar bandwagon: 4) YH feigns agreeing with me to make me think we are on the same page even though he logically claims to be on opposite sides from me. AKA appeasing me and sweeping it under the rug, as you might say. On August 15 2012 13:51 YourHarry wrote: Fine. Maybe I was paranoid. I expected Solar to continue to act against pro-town behavior and I thought you were trying to use that to further support his wagon. On August 15 2012 13:49 YourHarry wrote: You are defending Solar on writing and even pointing out that Shady's case seems insubstantial, but expecting Solar to continue his trolling behavior, you can use that to accuse him. On August 15 2012 13:54 YourHarry wrote: I found mkfuba scummy, but I may have been too focused on people trying to target Solar. On August 15 2012 14:17 YourHarry wrote: Mkfuba, good question! But not quite correct, I checked my PM before I posted. But you are in the right ball park. But let's forget everything I said about Solar. I will re-evaluate when more people post. On August 15 2012 14:26 YourHarry wrote: Shady, maybe I am wrong. I take back what I said about Solar. But for now, he seems be a newbie town that is overly confident based to his town alignment. Sorry, if I am not making any sense right now... There you go. That's what I think is our first big read of the Day. Based on the above posting behavior, I would highly surprised if he didn't flip scum. ## FoS YourHarry | ||
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Shady Sands
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On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote: Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.) So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours. The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town. The way I play this game is to tunnel people until they either convince me that they're town or they end up dead via lynch or NK. That's how each townie should play this game--letting analysis go before one is satisfied is how scum slip out of our fingers. That being said, I'd encourage you to take a look at the case on YH. I think we have enough material now for a full formal case on someone, and I think it should satisfy your need for analysis. | ||
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On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote: Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.) So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours. The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town. I just want to make this simple: are you committing to your read on me as the scummiest player so far? | ||
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On August 15 2012 18:45 DarthPunk wrote: Evoking responses is important, but so is providing analysis and content which you have barely done. Without a solid base of analysis and content (especially that which is not a near fraudulent interpretation of something near meaningless) in the first half of the day to work off of, there's no way to actually mine enough material to reliably identify and tunnel scum on the second half of the day. There is not much material to work off yet you have encouraged everyone to bandwagon on the back of your interpretation of one post and solars subsequent reactions. (which are far more suspicious than any case on him you have provided.) So my case on you is equally as weak as your cases? Yet you are presenting mine as invalid and yours as valid. The crucial difference between us is I have actually posted substantial cases based on the analysis of large amounts of posts in your filter and have followed the case up with additional content. You twisted near meaningless posts made at the very beginning of day one and have made a huge leap of assumption to even provide anything at all. And have followed that up with nothing further aside from fluff. My case is not nearly as weak as yours. The cases you made based on those posts were a gigantic stretch at best. Tunnelling these people without providing additional insight or content is harmful to town. The bigger issue, Darth, is why you are holding me responsible for a lack of analysis and content so far when I've been trying the hardest to get people to commit to reads on people and post more cases. Also, how is this post below: On August 15 2012 12:01 Shady Sands wrote: Basically I read this: And it didn't make sense to me. Why would Solar make this post if he's town? It's not pro-town to post on which style a scum might or might be playing. Then I read his post in context of the first post that stutters made, and it seemed like Solar is trying to soft accuse stutters--because stutters post was short, and didn't hold any information that disagrees with the general direction (as telling people to read a guide is about as plain as someone can get.) The second possibility here, aside from soft-accusing stutters, is that Solar is trying to look participatory. He states this himself, later. Why would a townie try to look participatory from his first post onwards? No one has accused Solar of anything yet, so why the desire to look like he's contributing (as opposed to actually saying something of substance instead of guessing at what the scum must be feeling?) Both these possibilities lead to a scum Solarsail. ## FoS Solarsail A lack of content and analysis? I note that you didn't include it in your long train of quotes on me, perhaps because it doesn't fit the picture you're trying to paint. So I ask you: How is the above case a bad case? How does it not provide content or analysis? If you can't find answers to those questions, then I'd respectfully ask you to start applying your own strict standards to YourHarry, who, by your logic, should be a far bigger scum than I am. | ||
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On August 15 2012 19:16 goodkarma wrote: Expect a meaningful case writeup on who I suspect to be likely scum sometime tomorrow. A couple quick comments before bed though... Regarding the suspicions going at Shady: Yes, he may have maintained a high degree of activity with few case points presented by himself, but to his credit he has gotten town talking and meaningful discussion rolling. I'm content to see him "prod" people, as someone needs to do this. And his case on YourHarry is definitely a good start in the right direction. Let's keep in mind there's three scum, not just one. So let's each try to give multiple scum reads where possible instead of tunneling one person at a time. Especially since if everyone tunnels the same guy today, and doesn't discuss other suspects in any detail, we pretty much go into day one all over again (if we mislynch) come day 2. I would have liked, for example, to hear a little more about Shady's "scum reads" on some of the people he's prodded prior and taken a break from, especially Solarsail. And regarding reading our filters from prior games: This is a newbie game, meaning filters are very sparse. A two-game "meta read" is hardly anything to go off of, as you can't honestly expect people to make exactly the same mistakes in their play over and over again. Everyone's gameplay will definitely change in the first few games. It's near-impossible to get a real "play pattern" off like two games, and I don't feel a "meta-read" is really going to be that valuable... If anything, it will make people over-suspicious of people who have a strong scum history, and overly-trusting of those with a strong town history. Thanks GK. One thing about Solarsail--I've let up on him a bit because he hasn't responded since this last post: Going off the lesson of JingleHell from XXII, I think continually aggravating him will discourage him from contributing. Plus, it's not going to get us a lot of information if we keep beating up on a cripple, so to speak. | ||
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On August 15 2012 19:24 DarthPunk wrote: So you dropped your cases on SolarSail and Thrawn because you were entirely satisfied? are you scum slipping out of my fingers? Link me to the posts in which you become satisfied enough to drop your cases. Or are you dropping them because you have realised they are backfiring. Hard. I will look at the YourHarry case. The way he flipped on and off of SolarSail was suspicious and I am therefore rereading the thread and his filter. What kind of question is this? What does answering this question contribute to town? I will analyse and present cases on whoever I see as suspicious time allowing. I have found others scummy, you were the first that particularly jumped out at me. Did I say I was completely abandoning the cases on Thrawn and Solarsail? I said we should drop them for a bit and look at YourHarry, since YH had made a train of scummy posts. Also, the question I asked you is to nail you down, Darth, because it seemed like you were saying I was scummiest player in the thread. But I think I misread your first post--thought you were FoS'ing me after reading through everyone else's posts, when you clearly hadn't done that at all. I look forward to seeing how your reads change once you've read more of the thread. | ||
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On August 15 2012 19:39 DarthPunk wrote: EBWOP: My FoS on Shady stands until I am satisfied, which I am not presently. I will re-read the thread and Your Harry's filter and post my thoughts. Okay. Looking forward to your reread. JHuyt, welcome to the thread. I find your first post a little wierd: My experience from other mafia games is that the first day is a dead day and accusations made on the first day rarely holds any water. Despite that I think that Shady's case against YH is good, he's very inconsistent which in my experience is how unexperienced scum behaves. I'm sorry, but I don't think I can be of any more use until new evidence is posted. This is just a flat lazy post. There's been nearly 5 pages of back and forth going on about not just YH, but Solarsail, Thrawn, even YH's quasi-case on Mkfuba, not to mention Darth's long FoS on me. Yet your whole summation is that 1) First day is a wasted day, and basically useless (subtly encouraging other people not to try very hard and make cases) 2) Inexperienced scum often post inconsistently, hence the poster who has been making the most posts (and hence runs the greatest risk of looking inconsistent) is likely scum Even if this was not borne out of a scum intent to weaken town, this is anti-town play. I'd recommend you take a good, hard look at the cases already posted and come back to the thread, else an FoS will be in order for: --extremely scummy first post --being the last one into the thread. | ||
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Also, the third reason for a probable FoS on you will be: --Pre-emptively excusing yourself from having to perform serious analysis until other people post more cases, giving you an excuse/opportunity to sheep people safely | ||
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On August 15 2012 19:36 DarthPunk wrote: I have read the thread twice. Your actions were particularly suspicious and thus I read through your filter carefully and presented my findings. You want to nail me down? are you implying that you find me scummy without going so far as to say it? My read on you won't change after I re-read the thread. Nothing you have said has quelled my suspicions of you. I may find others suspicious also. That does not require me to not find you suspicious as you are attempting to imply. No, I don't find you scummy. I'm doing this because town benefits when players formally commit to reads and are as explicit as possible. | ||
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On August 15 2012 19:32 DarthPunk wrote: I have mentioned that case several times. It is largely based on wild and convoluted assumptions in order to lead to anything meaningful. I have said previously you are either more guilty of the things you are accusing him of or are making assumptions based on a largely innocuous post. The not all, but the Overwhelming Majority of your posts are fluff. and the Analysis you do present is bad or a stretch. Which begs the question. Why would you be making such absurd stretches in your 'analysis' unless you are serving an agenda? I will look at Your Harry also. I have only been back for a short while and need to reread the thread. However I find it unusual that you are now, after suspicion has been cast upon you, casting aside your earlier cases without a clear or satisfying reason and trying to shift attention onto Your Harry. Again, you're saying my analysis is bad or a stretch without stating why they're bad. What's wrong with the case I've posted above? What are the holes? Until you can answer those questions, your case on me doesn't help the town. Furthermore, I am not casting aside those cases without a clear or satisfying reason. You're framing me for things I haven't done, which is anti-town. I explicitly stated that I'm moving to YH because I find his behavior even scummier than Thrawn's or Solar's. Furthermore, I stated why I think pushing on Thrawn or Solar when they're not in the thread and can't respond won't generate the sort of discussion that ends up helping the town. | ||
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On August 15 2012 20:19 DarthPunk wrote: I am not framing you for things you haven't done. Why such a melodramatic Defense? You case was bad, because it was based on an assumption and the convoluted scum motivation you presented alongside that assumption. It was a stretch because the assumption you made was a stretch. Your cases bring very little to the table, and unlike XXII you are not confirmed town and cannot get away with such questionable arguments. You explicitly stated you were dropping the cases on them for now. Why not just move on without saying anything? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With that being said. I strongly encourage everyone to read Your Harry's Filter It is so ridiculous that I feel bad I didn't jump on it sooner. @YOUR HARRY acting like you have some sort of outside information to make a PANTS ON HEAD series of posts is very suspicious and unless you have a rock solid excuse for what your filter currently consists of I have a very large; FoS## Your Harry It is 100% a good idea to reveal this information right now. You're saying I was abandoning the cases for no reason, when I clearly stated I was temporarily dropping them to look at someone who I thought was scummier. There's a key difference between those actions and I think we need to be on the same page as to what they are. As for my cases on Solar and Thrawn, what assumptions were they based on that you found faulty? You still haven't responded to the specifics in my case at all. I'm not giving you a hard time here because I think you're scum--on the contrary, it's because you're a pretty logical player that I feel I need to convince you. Glad to see we agree on YH. | ||
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On August 15 2012 20:35 Solarsail wrote: Good morning. I intend to be civil and not emotional from now on. My posts were very deliberately an attempt to get discussion going and see what people's alignments were, and this was a success in that I want to point out two people. My behaviour was consistently anti-town, so a good town player would be telling me to stop being erratic but not defending me. So, first I want to discuss Shady Sands. Apart from one-line questioning of me, and the unneeded insistence on filters as has been pointed out, he has done little else and none of his arguments have been reasonable or backed up by evidence. His enduring suspicion of me based on the first post doesn't make sense because it was just the second post and neither town nor mafia would have a motivation to start accusing someone at that point. If it was just to start discussion in itself why would he persist in asserting it for the next eight pages as if it was substantial. Secondly, the continued defence of me by Thrawn has no basis. I was clearly being anti-town. Some evidence: "I am still of the opinion that solar's posts are somewhat likely to be emotional overreactions rather than scummy." "Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar?" "Most of the discussion right now is about solarsail. I don't think there's anything wrong with this because so far his posts haven't seemed very useful but we have still yet to hear from several players. He could easily be town and just reacting to everyone immediately jumping on his case as soon as the game starts." "Suspicion of a soft accusation is hardly good evidence that he should be lynched especially when there has been so little discussion so far so I am not sold on your case against him." There is little reason to defend me so much unless your motivation is to defend someone he knows to be town player for deflection reasons. -- I am unvoting because my original vote was baseless and I want to hear Shady's response before making a serious attempt at voting him. Unvote The thread consensus has been that I'm town. Thus if I am mafia I have nothing to gain from changing my playstyle now. Solar, glad to see you come around. That being said, how can you say that Thrawn's soft defense on you seems scummy when YH basically did a 180 between voting you and unvoting you within the span of 40 minutes, on the basis of some mysterious read he had? Also, I'd recommend you look at what DP and I have been going over in the past 2 pages. Current town focus is on YH. | ||
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On August 15 2012 20:35 Solarsail wrote: Good morning. I intend to be civil and not emotional from now on. My posts were very deliberately an attempt to get discussion going and see what people's alignments were, and this was a success in that I want to point out two people. My behaviour was consistently anti-town, so a good town player would be telling me to stop being erratic but not defending me. So, first I want to discuss Shady Sands. Apart from one-line questioning of me, and the unneeded insistence on filters as has been pointed out, he has done little else and none of his arguments have been reasonable or backed up by evidence. His enduring suspicion of me based on the first post doesn't make sense because it was just the second post and neither town nor mafia would have a motivation to start accusing someone at that point. If it was just to start discussion in itself why would he persist in asserting it for the next eight pages as if it was substantial. Secondly, the continued defence of me by Thrawn has no basis. I was clearly being anti-town. Some evidence: "I am still of the opinion that solar's posts are somewhat likely to be emotional overreactions rather than scummy." "Shady, can you explain your reasoning for initially jumping all over solar?" "Most of the discussion right now is about solarsail. I don't think there's anything wrong with this because so far his posts haven't seemed very useful but we have still yet to hear from several players. He could easily be town and just reacting to everyone immediately jumping on his case as soon as the game starts." "Suspicion of a soft accusation is hardly good evidence that he should be lynched especially when there has been so little discussion so far so I am not sold on your case against him." There is little reason to defend me so much unless your motivation is to defend someone he knows to be town player for deflection reasons. -- I am unvoting because my original vote was baseless and I want to hear Shady's response before making a serious attempt at voting him. Unvote The thread consensus has been that I'm town. Thus if I am mafia I have nothing to gain from changing my playstyle now. Also, the whole point about prodding your second post was that it didn't make sense for town to post something like "oh I can't imagine how scared a newbie mafia member would be in a game like this" I still haven't heard a satisfactory answer as to why you could post something like that. Glad to know the subsequent hostility was all an act, though. Will keep your acting ability in mind. | ||
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On August 15 2012 20:18 Jhuyt wrote: Hmm, you're right, I should try to be more helpful. On Solar: This is just how he is in general from what I've seen on TL, so I don't have anything there. On Shady: Shady tries to control the game, which is an act that I don't often see in normal townies, I've most often encountered it when a scum tries to make everybody think he's the sheriff. It is, however, a game of high risk and relies heavily on the actual sheriff being useless. He might be the sheriff as well, and this is why I think the first day is kinda silly, I don't know what to think solely based on his posts, they seem consistent. I still think that YourHarry is something scummy simply because his posting behavior is strange, on everybody else, I need more evidence before making up my mind. First you soft defend Solar. Solar already said he was deliberately posting in an anti-town way. Then you say my posts are inconsistent and therefore scummy. Now you say you don't know what to think solely based on my posts, and that they seem consistent. What? Then you sheep what DP and I have been posting on YH. This isn't the sort of drastically improved posting I was looking for. ## FoS JHuyt | ||
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Then you say my posts are inconsistent and therefore scummy. Now you say you don't know what to think solely based on my posts, and that they seem consistent. What? Should read Then you switch from saying my posts are inconsistent and therefore scummy to saying you don't know what to think solely based on my posts, and that they seem consistent. What? | ||
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On August 15 2012 20:58 Solarsail wrote: On YH: Looking at his filter that's even more erratic than I was acting. Worthless vote, full on vote rescinded within a page, not sharing information are all indicators. I'm waiting for YH's response particularly on the 'information' he has. Shady, I still feel the same about you. - I understand why you said filters are useful. Why the insistence on everyone /posting/ filters? They are accessible to anyone who is interested, given that we at most have two previous games to look at, and you've mentioned it far more than just a few posts to remind everyone they exist. - The explanation for my post is what I originally said: I had this feeling once and I didn't know most in this game had far more experience than me so I wanted to point that out from experience. Nothing else intended by that. After I defended that (weak) accusation, you continued to press me on it instead of pressing me on my anti-town posting which was far and away the most standout thing about me. You actually underreacted to the fake vote and my responses to you. I want everyone to post filters because it's convenient that way. At first, I thought about simply congregating all the filter links myself into a mega-post, but I thought people would think that was spammy (after I got called out for doing a similar "list post" in XXII). But I do want those sorts of filters conveniently laid out, since that does help town. As for the underreaction, that was mostly because in XXII, I ended up really pissing off another townie by incessantly harping about how his responses were basically hostile ad hominems (kind of like yours), to the point where he just stopped participating in the thread right (told the entire town to "crash, burn, and die") as we were about to lynch the Godfather. I didn't want something similar happening again. | ||
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On August 15 2012 20:58 Solarsail wrote: On YH: Looking at his filter that's even more erratic than I was acting. Worthless vote, full on vote rescinded within a page, not sharing information are all indicators. I'm waiting for YH's response particularly on the 'information' he has. Shady, I still feel the same about you. - I understand why you said filters are useful. Why the insistence on everyone /posting/ filters? They are accessible to anyone who is interested, given that we at most have two previous games to look at, and you've mentioned it far more than just a few posts to remind everyone they exist. - The explanation for my post is what I originally said: I had this feeling once and I didn't know most in this game had far more experience than me so I wanted to point that out from experience. Nothing else intended by that. After I defended that (weak) accusation, you continued to press me on it instead of pressing me on my anti-town posting which was far and away the most standout thing about me. You actually underreacted to the fake vote and my responses to you. No worries about having that feeling once. I can understand what you're trying to say now. My suspicions will be better cleared if you can actually provide the link to the first mafia game you were talking about. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 16 2012 13:58 Archrun wrote: Sorry for being lurky, not intend just became last minute busy. As far as reads go I am going through the thread at will give my thoughts on the case against YH, thrawn, and GK as soon as I can, but right now I want to make a ##FoS: Jhuyt and Solar Case: Jhuyt puts: then Solar puts: May main concern is two-fold: 1) Jhuyt claims Solar is just an emotional by his previous TL post history, which later Solar claims to be a deliberate act. Futhermore, skimming through Solar TL post history it doesn't seem that emotionally based. In fact, it is closer to his current professionalism. I believe Jhuyt defense of him is a blatant lie. 2) Solar questions why Thrawn is defending him, but not Jhuyt. Other people defend Solar has a bad townies, and to shape up his posting, while Jhuyt explained Solar behavior (falsely) as that is the type of person solar is. This leads me wonder why would Solar question Thrawn's motives and not Jhuyt? This plays out four ways: If Jhuyt is townie and Solar is townie then Solar should of suspected his motives like he did with thrawn or both of them are mason and there is no need to question each others motives. I believe them being Masons is possible. If Jhuyt is townie and Solar is scum then why would jhuyt lie about Solar's posting? Futhermore, why wouldn't Solar call Jhuyt out like he did with Thrawn? The only why I can see is to put focus on one person. This seems dishonest. nor does it allievate Jhuyt roll. under those ground I reject this possibility. If Jhuyt is scum and Solar is scum then either a bus play could happen(which didn't) or they could protect each other. They could directly protect each other by offering counter arguments against both of them, (which only Jhuyt did in that one line lie) or indirectly by not bringing attention to each other(which would be a play that Solar made. I believe them both being scum is possible. Finally, if Jhuyt is scum and Solar is townie then by lying Jhuyt post (which occured before Solar) puts focus on Shady and potentially has some a townie on his side. Solar likewise either became a townie by his side(doubtful, because he didn't defend him against Shady's accusation) or Solar would of question his motive like he did with thrawn. I reject this possibility as stated above. This leads me to believe Jhuyt and Solar are Scum or Masons. Thoughts? Concerns? Did I miss something? I don't think Solar missed Jhuyt post because he was corresponding with Shady the entire page and part way through there correspondences Shady replied to Jhuyt. I want to emphasis I haven't look at the evidence agaisnt Thrawn thoroughly so I have no argument on him as scum or town at the moment. This actually makes quite a bit of sense. I'm thinking JHuyt is likely scum based on the above and his inactivity, but not our top lynch candidate. Right now, my shortlist is as follows: --YH: Inconsistent posting, swingy analysis. This doesn't necessarily mean he's scum, but it means he is not someone I want in town if town hits MYLO/LYLO. Action: warning, 1 scum point, shape up your posting. The mason read theory makes sense, but again, it's hugely swingy and not something many people will want to follow--and hence of limited use to town, since it's not likely it will ever gain enough popularity to submit it to the acid test of a lynch. --Thrawn: My suspicion on Thrawn has gone way up since his posting last night. Why? Thrawn feigns activity but in reality is only actively sheeping people. Thrawn hasn't come up with a single independent read on anyone from the very first case (me on Solar) onwards. Indeed, when the activity gets slow, he feels the best way to do something is to ask people what their reads are: On August 15 2012 13:52 thrawn2112 wrote: YourHarry, who do you find most scummy at this exact point in time? Why would he be asking YH this question instead of sharing his own point of view? (Which he still hasn't done) In addition, his posting is actively trying to slow things down and muddle the scumhunt: + Show Spoiler [super long post] + On August 16 2012 05:27 thrawn2112 wrote: Policy? A few people started talking about policy at the beginning and we never actually came to an agreement on that because of solar's trolling. Can we say whether or not we are going to FOS lurkers? Of course this doesnt not mean an automatic lynching, but it will help to keep everyone posting so that we can all get better reads. My vote is that yes, this policy should be put in effect, even though we have almost wasted the opportunity to do so. Concerning the YH topic: 3 possibilities immediately come to mind: One, that YH is being honest about him thinking that solar and gk are masons. That will explain basically all of his scummy sounding posting earlier in the game. Two, that he and solar are masons. This would explain his strong conviction that solar is town, and could also explain why he posted like he had information to hide. Three, YH and solar, or maybe just YH is scum. This would also account for the cryptic way he was posting. The only part that I'm having trouble with, is that 4 minutes after voting for me for being suspicious of shady, he unvoted me and changed his vote to solar. 21 minutes later is when according to him, he came up with his 'solar as mason' theory and unvoted again. So if YH is scum and solar is scum, why would YH ever vote for solar in the first place? It could be a sneaky manipulation but i doubt that is the case. This makes me believe that no, YH and solar cannot BOTH be scum. YH's quick changing of votes is what I'm currently looking at to see if I can make any reads as far as YH is concerned. At this point I think YH's alliance hinges on whether or not you believe his story about suspecting solar and gk of being masons. At one point in the game I was willing to indulge the thought that YH and solar were masons based off a weak read I was making, (the extra information YH was hinting at) so it is easy for me to believe that YH did the same. YH, for now I believe your story and do not think either you or solar are scum. Solarsail Just to confirm what I'm thinking, do we all trust solarsail's account of his first few posts, that he was trolling to get responses? I'm assuming we all do? Myself, I believe him. I don't think a player who posts like he initially posted would be able to post how he is posting now unless they were trolling. Initially he was the most scummy player, but at that point in the game less than half the players had even posted. As time went on I began to think that no he's not scum, but he's a town player who just doesn't understand what the tone of this game is supposed to be. Honestly solar you were posting like you had just come in from a sc2 tournament thread, it was very hard to know what to make of that. IMO you actually caused more harm than if you would have allowed the discussion to remain on policy talk. The first few pages of posting were very chaotic and full of people making baseless accusations set by the tone of how you chose to play the game. Yes, I do think that myself and maybe some other people are able to make reads off the situation you created, but I think that those reads could have come regardless of your trolling. mkfuba07, after reading my post do you agree with my claim that YH is town? If not, why not? So after he makes this post, he does the "slam dunk FoS on Archrun" for not posting. After that he moves to a "soft chainsaw" on Z-Boson for criticizing Ochrow (while again not offering his own reads): + Show Spoiler [The Soft Chainsaw] + On August 16 2012 08:29 thrawn2112 wrote: Z-Boson, are you thinking that Ochrow has a read on NH that he isn't explaining? What I got from that quote is that ochrow thinks NH could be town. The opening statement of that quote you referenced was "So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him" followed by "he too is giving off a town feel." I don't understand if you are saying Ochrow has a town or scum read on NH. On August 16 2012 09:04 thrawn2112 wrote: Yes, NH = YH, my bad. So to clarify since you didnt actually answer the question, were you saying that ochrow had a town or a scum read on yourharry? The "as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak" quote is a little ambiguous but I understood it as ochrow being suspicious of shady for shady focusing on solar's first post, but having nothing else to go on he was just leaving it at that, suspicion. What you have accused him of implying is a stretch. I have gone through ochrow's filter and can't a case of him keeping secrets about his read on solar. Could you find/quote/explain that one too? I do not think your case against Ochrow is very convincing and I believe that you are reading too much into his posts. On August 16 2012 09:42 thrawn2112 wrote: I don't think there's evidence of Ochrow hiding information in the "(ie Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it)" post. Ochrow wasn't saying that he had a secret read, he was saying that yourharry claimed to have a secret read on solar, which is here: and here: I think you misquoted Ochrow, that "secret read" statement wasn't about himself. Then finally settles on tunneling Archrun. This is where it gets a little interesting. Why Archrun for lurkerish behavior, when Golbat has only made 2 posts, and JHuyt 2 posts of terrible quality? This is where we tie something else in: Golbat early in D1 accuses Thrawn, who claims drunkenness and laughs off the post. Golbat never brings up the post again. Thrawn ignores Golbat. Both players almost deliberately made accusations against each other without following up on each other. This smells fishy, as a townie Golbat in XXII would have immediately jumped on something like that, and a townie Thrawn would have tried to lynch Golbat AND JHuyt for lurkerish behavior. But why are they playing nice with each other? My top read right now is Thrawn, and as such, I'm giving him my vote. ## Vote Thrawn2112 --Solarsail: This post by him makes me very suspicious: On August 16 2012 15:11 Solarsail wrote: I will be back in four hours with a full post but I want to address two things 1. I wasn't suspicious of Jhuyt because there was so little to work with. I have him down as a near-lurker and hence '?' for now. 2. Jhuyt and I have a specific history in a specific thread involving some deleted posts. It's understandable him and him alone would say that. There's essentially no way to verify the truth of this statement if only him and Solar can attest to it. I want to hear a clearer read between Solar and JHuyt, specifically why Solar believes JHuyt to be innocent and not worth a lurker lynch. --JHuyt: Still haven't responded, so my original case on him still stands. Strong FoS, and if he continues to lurk I may consider changing my vote to him to guarantee a no-lynch. Right now though, my top lynch target is Thrawn. From the first massively WIFOM Serial Killer post, to the WIFOM on Policy, YH, and Solarsail, to his soft defense of Ochrow against Z-Boson--all of this smells extremely scummy. Scum have to look like they're active, scum have to stay alive, and scum have to help each other. Thrawn's posting behavior fits all three motives to a T. Lynch Thrawn. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Ochrow and Thrawn are, at the very least, working together, and given how Thrawn's been so WIFOMy and sheepy for the game, I'd reckon they are not masons but scum. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
First post, all he's doing is trying to sound "fair and balanced" without offering a set opinion of his own one way or another: On August 15 2012 15:42 Ochrow wrote: Howdy. Like most of you here, still getting the hang of this especially since this is my first game of forum mafia (sorry Shady no filters or meta for me yet). What little experience I do have is from playing live with some TL friends of mine, and one trend that I remember a lot from that was that scum had a stronger tendency towards the deflection/OMGUS style of play. And so along the same line of though Solar does seem a bit scummy to me. I see what a few people, particularly Shady, have been saying about his first post and that seems logical to me, but more than that is his persistence with just the general "why are you attacking me attack him/her" stuff that makes me suspicious. So while I don't feel strongly enough to vote I do want to just throw it out there that Solar you should really try to focus on changing your attitude and respond to questions rather than just be sarcastic and/or deflecting. Then Ochrow moves to doing the "easy attack" on Archrun (even though Golbat and JHuyt at the time were even more lurkerish). On August 16 2012 05:27 Ochrow wrote: My two cents on Shady: My initial inclination when I see somebody being as aggressive as he is, this coming only from live games not forum, is that they are scum. However, every single time that I have been in this sort of situation and gotten a scum vibe from somebody being overly aggressive I have been wrong. So for me that history has me thinking that that Shady is town, just an incredibly aggressive one. However at the same time I think that he may be a bit overly aggressive and reading too much into people's posts, as he has made two rather strong accusations against Solar and JHyut that I feel are more or less unfounded. On Solar: As I originally said I felt that his play was not at all pro-town but, assuming he is telling the truth about the acting and that he didn't just pull it out of his ass, he has really turned around and is very much giving off a townie feel. On YH: So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him. While he was posting one-liners at the beginning, as he said he was actually able to get his point across in them, granted that his point wasn't always a great one to get across (ie Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it). But since his explanation, which to me seems to be entirely understandable, he too is giving off a town feel. As for any reads I have, in most of the games I've played there has been at least one scum that was just purely a lurker, and as such I get a bit of a scum feeling from Archrun. He has only three posts all only a few sentences, long enough to not be pointed out as one-liners but only just. I guess I also get suspicious of any first post that just focuses on O hai thar I'm a townie yay killing scum. While I know everybody is trying to prove themselves as town I just get bad feelings when the substance of somebody's post is: On top of that in his three posts he doesn't get into what he thinks about who might be scum but is just theorizing or throwing out a soft defense. I may be totally off on here but until he posts a bit more or contributes something of substance I am going to throw out ##FoS Archrun As per Solar's question I hope this helps, and if there was any curiosity about the reasoning behind my general consensus post, it seemed like a lot of people were in more or less violent agreement over the Solar issue so I wanted to throw out my understanding of events in the hope that it might lead to shorter and/or fewer posts beating that dead horse. Then, even after the gigantic discussion on me, JHuyt, YH, and Solar, all he does is claim "townie feel" on all everyone while focusing on posters with nearly 0 posts to analyze. This is wierd. Again, scum like going for low-hanging easy mislynches like this, and his blatant cooperation with Thrawn makes me hugely suspicious. One final note: look through Ochrow's filter: note how his posts always cluster around the same time Thrawn is posting, but he only mentions the existence of Thrawn once. Wierd, no? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
## Vote Thrawn2112, ## FoS Ochrow Everyone just do it. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 16 2012 19:58 thrawn2112 wrote: Shady, did you read my post about JHyut's claim? My suspicion of Archrun was independent of Ochrow's orignal post. When I began focusing on Archrun, there were 4 people who had posted 4 times or less. I checked each of their filters and Archrun was the only one who had not given an opinion on anything concerning scum reads or even suspicions of scum. His posts contained the least amount of useful information so he seemed like the 1st lurker I needed to pressure. I even posted this reasoning when I originally called him out the first time. As for your claims that ochrow and I are scum working together.....well I have no defense to that. If I am town, that is not a falsifiable accusation. Archrun, what did Gobalt ever say to me? Are you talking about his post 6 hours after the game started, when only a few people had posted so far, where he says I am the scummiest because of my SK comment? If you think that post was scum thrawn trying to distract from scumhunting, then you need to read it again: + Show Spoiler + On August 15 2012 09:55 thrawn2112 wrote: Does anyone have experience playing in a game where a serial killer was a possible role? If there did end up being a serial killer, how big a role did they play and how high would you rate the importance and achieveability of sniffing them out early? In other words, would it be a worthwhile use of the town's time and investigation to try to figure out who, if anyone, is the serial killer? I can see how it would be very important to find out who is SK early on, but I also can see how it might be way more difficult than figuring out who is mafia, and thus not a good use of time. One distinction between the serial killer and the mafia is that the mafia are in communication and will be working together while the serial killer is separated from both town and mafia. Any player who is suspected to be not of town affiliation could either be mafia or SK, so while in either case they are a good target for lynching, having knowledge of their actual role would be way more valuable than just an uninformed hit on a supposed non-town player. If there isn't an SK, then this line of discussion is a complete waste of time and we would be doing the mafia's job for them, which is why I asked if anyone has experience in games with an SK so that we all can get a better idea of what the risk/reward anaylsis should be on determining whether or not and when to focus on a potential SK. Concerning shady sand's post, this is my first game so I have no previous history to reference. I didnt not bold anything just now. I clearly stated that I knew that if there wasn't an SK then it would be a waste our time worrying about one. In fact the whole point of that post was to ask if anyone had any previous experience in a game that had SKs, and if they had any advice on how to approach the issue, or if to even approach it at all. I read it, and it doesn't matter to the case on you. But the issue with Archrun is you didn't compare him at all to the other lurkers. Nope. You just went ahead and joined in on Ochrow's accusation of Archrun without even offering any of your own analysis to back it up. Who were those other 3 people who had posted 4 times or less? Can you tell me who you checked? And of course you can't defend yourself from the blatant double-teaming you and Ochrow are doing. Anyone who has been in the thread in the past day can tell. Finally, on your SK post, why would you make a post that you knew to be a complete waste of time? Answer: scum who needs to look busy... or look cute by feigning ignorance as to whether there is an SK or not (when such information is available on in the OP to this thread.) Conclusion: Thrawn, you are scum. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Strong FoS: Ochrow, JHuyt Mild FoS: Solarsail Lurker alert: Golbat | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 16 2012 20:24 goodkarma wrote: My response to this can be summarized in one word: NO. The absolute last thing we need is for everyone to sheep onto a candidate. Everyone who hasn't voted needs to clearly spell out their scum suspects and their reasoning for voting for who they do. Our reasoning for our lynch candidates is just as important (if not more) than who we choose on day one. Sheeping leads to two scenarios: What information do we get on everyone's motivations if we mislynch? Pretty much nothing... Well, everyone voted for this one person because they were told to. It pretty much leads to day two turning into an extended day one. The vote will have meant pretty much nothing, since everyone blindly ganged up on the wrong candidate... If we lynch a scum, then great. Everyone celebrates and forgets how bad sheeping is. But it's just not worth it. Part of day one is encouraging a good town atmosphere, and sheeping is never a part of that. If you're going to try to position yourself as a town leader, then this is not the way to do it. I'd go so far as to give you a "light": ##FoS: Shady Sands Encouraging sheeping is very anti-town. From a town perspective, I think it's very plausible you're a little overexcited about your findings on Thrawn, and what you perceive to be a sure scum day one lynch, and that's why I'd call it a "light FoS." Honestly, though, this post was alarming to me, and looks like a great way to herd town behind a scum agenda. Got it. In no way should you interpret my post as telling people to stop thinking for themselves and just follow me. That being said, though, what do you think of the cases on Thrawn and Ochrow? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 16 2012 20:33 thrawn2112 wrote: I know, I was telling you because it should change your suspicion about jhyut. Your suspicion of him seemed to hinge on the accusation that he told a lie about solar. I have pointed out that it wasn't a lie, and anyone that wants to check this can go look at the posts on april 4 in the my little pony thread. Yes, I did compare him to other lurkers. You yourself allowed that I said I checked his posts against the posts of 3 other lurkers. The lurkers I checked on were gobalt, archrun, jhyut, ochrow, and stutters. I have explained my reasoning for targeting archun several times. Like I said before, there is nothing I can say to convince you that Ochrow and I are not coordinating our posts. There is really nothing I can say against this claim. You are taking this claim so seriously and are so insistent on it that I am beginning to think you might be scum. You say "Anyone who has been in the thread in the past day can tell," as if there is absolutely no way that everyone won't all come to the same conclusion as you. How convenient.... the part of your argument that you are most adamant about is also the only part of the argument that is impossible for me to disprove. I didn't know it was a waste of time, I was asking other people if looking for an SK was a waste of time. I completely dropped the issue after it was obvious that nobody else thought it was worth talking about. It was the 5th post of the entire game, there was nothing else besides standard policy being talked about. Basically your justification for digging Archrun is this: Of course I agree that focusing on scum reads is more important than focusing on who has posted the least, but when, as goodkarma said, the conversation is only happening between a handful of people scum reading is difficult. Translation: "Scumreading is hard! Therefore I'm going to attack whoever hasn't posted much yet, since that's easy." Except the thing is, you weren't the first one to notice Archrun (that would be your buddy, Ochrow). Also, at the time you were attacking Archrun, you had failed to notice that: --JHuyt had basically only made 2 posts (less than Arch) and hadn't contributed anything besides repeating the accusations made by DP and myself at each other and on YH. --All Golbat had done was accuse you based on the SK post. You had two easy targets you could have gone after using your own criterion of going after the least-contributing players, but you didn't. Instead you went after Archrun with a simple click of the quote button and a 3 sentence justification. Finally, you said you looked at 3 other players, then listed 4 people next to Archrun (Ochrow, Golbat, JHuyt, and Stutters). In your original post you said you looked at 4 people in total. So the question is, did you even look at other players or not? | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Here is proof of you and Ochrow coordinating off each other: On August 16 2012 07:11 thrawn2112 wrote: FOS Archrun Archrun, you have made 3 posts so far and none of them have had anything directly to do with scumhunting. Can you tell us what you think about shady's claims concerning solar, myself, and newharry? Why are you just using Ochrow's post as a justification for your own FoS on Arch? Furthermore, why are you defending Ochrow from Z-Boson on his behalf? + Show Spoiler [Chainsaw posts] + On August 16 2012 08:29 thrawn2112 wrote: Z-Boson, are you thinking that Ochrow has a read on NH that he isn't explaining? What I got from that quote is that ochrow thinks NH could be town. The opening statement of that quote you referenced was "So far I haven't really been able to get much of a read on him" followed by "he too is giving off a town feel." I don't understand if you are saying Ochrow has a town or scum read on NH. On August 16 2012 09:04 thrawn2112 wrote: Yes, NH = YH, my bad. So to clarify since you didnt actually answer the question, were you saying that ochrow had a town or a scum read on yourharry? The "as to any motives behind that I can't yet speak" quote is a little ambiguous but I understood it as ochrow being suspicious of shady for shady focusing on solar's first post, but having nothing else to go on he was just leaving it at that, suspicion. What you have accused him of implying is a stretch. I have gone through ochrow's filter and can't a case of him keeping secrets about his read on solar. Could you find/quote/explain that one too? I do not think your case against Ochrow is very convincing and I believe that you are reading too much into his posts. On August 16 2012 09:42 thrawn2112 wrote: I don't think there's evidence of Ochrow hiding information in the "(ie Oh I have a secret read but I'm not sharing it)" post. Ochrow wasn't saying that he had a secret read, he was saying that yourharry claimed to have a secret read on solar, which is here: and here: I think you misquoted Ochrow, that "secret read" statement wasn't about himself. --Why are you and Ochrow both agreeing on the JHuyt read? Both of you think JHuyt is innocent, both you FoS/Vote Arch within 30 minutes of each other, Och cites your posts when he is responding to Z-Boson. This is pretty blatant coordination. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Finally, why did you just not even bother to respond to Solar's mega post fingering you as the scummiest reaction to his trolling? All these things are pointing towards a scum Thrawn. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 17 2012 00:00 thrawn2112 wrote: Just to show you how absurd of an argument this is, I'd like to point something out. You said that you saw both ochrow and I, within 30 minutes of each other were "trying to get a train on archrun going." Well, you and Archrun both voted against me within 3 minutes. If I use the reasoning you used to link me with ochrow as both scum, I must also link you with Archrun as scum. That wasn't the only piece of evidence linking Thrawn to Ochrow. It started when he basically quoted Och's post word for word as your entire justification for starting the FoS on Archrun, and then defended Och from Z-Boson on Och's behalf. The back-to-back posts were just the icing on the cake. Really shady, your arguments against me have been quite a stretch, and over and over you have ignored my responses to your accusations. I do not think that if you are thoroughly reading my posts that you would still have the belief that I am scum. I will go over our conversation and try to figure out if I have been unclear in my responses to you, and I urge you to go through the conversation to see if you might have missed out on what I was trying to say. If we can't figure this out, then my only options are to think that you are scum and trying to set me up, or that you are town and making weak reads and terrible arguments. I think it is the former so I am going to vote for you. If it is the latter, I won't feel TOO bad about lynching a town player who makes bad arguments. Generally, threatening someone with a counter-lynch unless they acquiesce to one's defense is a clear scumtell. That being said, I think I've more than covered any defenses Thrawn's offered. The most coherent defenses he offered was simply copy-pasting what he wrote on Archrun again and rehashing your paragraph on Solar. Again, with the Archrun paragraph, there were a whole bunch of other posters such as YH and Solar and JHuyt which you could have gone after, but which he didn't, and regarding Solar, he never again mentioned his accusations against him after responding to them just once (just like his "response" to Golbat). Pulling up out of the details for a second, the bigger question is why, after the whole Solar/YH/me cases, would he feel that the best way to secure a D1 lynch would be to find lurkers who haven't posted content yet? There were three giant cases floating around that he simply discounted, instead choosing to focus on one case by Ochrow as the entire justification for his initial FoS on Archrun. Of course, he covered his ass with additional justifications on Archrun after people called you out on it, but it still doesn't mean you can hide the fact that you FoS'd Archrun with 3 sentences of justification. But again, this is not our only charge against him. When all of Thrawn's behavior is taken together, this is what it looks like: 1) Lots of soft-defenses of multiple players through the first half of D1 2) Jumping on the Archrun train with poor justification 3) Chainsawing a neutral player (Z-Boson) for attacking the player who you used to justify the Archrun FoS (Ochrow) 4) Continuing to FoS Archrun even after he posted content, sheeping Ochrow the same player who you were defending against Z-Boson 5) Coordinating *all* your reads with Ochrow (including the ones on YH and Solar, the two other contentious players in the game) 6) Threatening to OMGUS lynch me if I don't reread your defense and reconsider my accusations against you 7) OMGUS voting me anyhow Each of these points, alone, would already constitute anti-town behavior; taken together, they are a clear scumtell. So then Thrawn decides to shift the argument to the filters. Whatever happened to your campaign to get everyone posting their previous game filters? Based on what you have done since demanding filters from everyone, I don't see a pro-town motive for your request. Your reasoning in asking for them was that having filters can be very useful in getting reads on people's posts that are made in specific circumstances, such as what a player usually acts like when accused of being scum. After asking for everyone's filters, you haven't even brought the subject back up. What was the point of asking in the first place if you are not going to follow through with analysis? If you wanted to view the filters for your own sole benefit, it would have been way easier for you to just find the filters yourself. If you wanted the group to view the filters so that the town can make better reads, then why haven't you provided any analysis of a player's posting within this game to their posting within previous games? I can't figure out why you asked from them in the first place, which leads me to the conclusion that your filter requests were fluff. ##Vote Shady Sands Someone asked me about the filters earlier, and this is how I responded: I find filters a good way to figure out how people react to the stress of either being rightfully or wrongfully accused. For example, I tend to look at how someone responds when they're scum and they're being pressured, to then figure out better and more efficient ways to tunnel them and trap them. I think that every townie needs to have this sort of information on all other townies, in order to make this thread as stressful and difficult a place for scum to post as possible. The filters aren't there for people to quote and make cases out of. The filters are there so that every townie can see how other townies react to rolling red or green in any given situation, so that all townies are on a level playing field when it comes to finding the right pressure points to dismantle and tunnel someone else to a lynch. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Notice that his original case on Archrun has completely gone out the window. His justification on Arch, if we recall, was built on Arch being a non-contributing lurker. Now he thinks that the likeliest scum is me, someone who is pretty much as far from being a lurker as one can get... just because he thinks I am wrongly accusing him. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
On August 17 2012 01:05 DarthPunk wrote: still trawling through the thread. It seems to be a lot more difficult to read than XXII. Yeah shady. Any Town Cred you had just went flying out the window. To be honest I am having trouble following the narrative of the thread right now (perhaps I am just tired.) but this is a very anti-town post. Your case on thrawn2112 was OK. But attempting to stifle any further discussion and demanding everyone to sheep your reads (which is ironic because this is one of the things you are accusing these people of doing.) Is just flat out ridiculous. I want some clarity on what your case is. But the crux of the matter is this correct? You may have already clarified your case and I have not yet got to it. If so could you just make a brief summary of your case. Here's the summary of the Thrawn case: 1) Lots of soft-defenses of multiple players through the first half of D1 2) Jumping on the Archrun train with poor justification ("non-contributing lurker") 3) Chainsawing a neutral player (Z-Boson) for attacking the player who he used to justify the Archrun FoS (Ochrow) 4) Continuing to FoS Archrun even after he posted content, sheeping Ochrow, the same player who he was defending against Z-Boson 5) Coordinating *all* his reads with Ochrow (including the ones on YH and Solar, the two other contentious players in the game) 6) Threatening to OMGUS lynch me if I don't reread his defense and reconsider my accusations against him (based off the exact opposite justifications that he used to accuse Archrun) 7) OMGUS voting me anyhow Also, I was saying that I wanted town to lynch Thrawn. In no way should you interpret my post as telling people to stop thinking for themselves and just follow me. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
Also, GoodKarma, where's your read on the whole discussion about Thrawn? You posted about my call to lynch, and then disappeared. | ||
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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