EPTSince you like direct questions,
which accusations, specifically, do you find bullshit and why?
Mad Men Mafia - Page 6
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
Since you like direct questions, which accusations, specifically, do you find bullshit and why? | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 06 2012 14:58 XsebT wrote: Especially the list that I responded to last time. There I also asked you to ask direct questions instead. The best you could come up with is "who do you think is scum". Well, Ive now made that quite clear. Be more specific. I made a list calling a lot of people suspicious for various reasons. Spell out what in that list really caught your eye. Do you agree or disagree with what I said about those specific people? Is it the fact that such a list was there in the first place? Have you read my filter at all? The direct question I asked you IS the best question that anyone can come up with. It's the essential question common to all mafia games, ever. Furthermore, Why is it your attitude in the first place that you can't be bothered to say who you think is scum or do anything without someone asking you a direct question in the first place? | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 06 2012 15:13 XsebT wrote: That he was role blocked? Thats a cute story and i case of it being true, horrible mafia play. To clarify, are you suggesting I'm lying about being roleblocked? | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 06 2012 15:27 XsebT wrote: Yes, in calling you out as mafia I also suggest that you lie. Jeez lol. That list came at a time where your main hope was to change our focus from you. Though you were fortunate enough to not be in the main spotlight due to other peoples fuck ups. Take this as a slight compliment. Because listing without much basis at such an early time in the game as it was, would be plain stupid as a townie. Ok cool this makes you town I think as a scum player should know the correct argument for why I would still be scum. A scum player should try to link me to the night kill of sloosh in some way, but xsebt completely ignores this. Basically scum knew that by roleblocking me, they would have a roleblock claim from me in public. Therefore they have come into today prepared to make the following arguments: 1) That my repeated calls for medics to protect sloosh were a gambit to distance myself from the NK, which was double-stack and 2) That by having the scum roleblocker roleblocking within the scum team I could claim RB'd without fear of couterclaim (they could also argue that sloosh was RB'd or something too) and that I did this to further get towncred, which they would argue I needed after D1. Xsebt hasn't thought this through at all, unless he's being cleverly dumb. I suppose it's still possible that scum were completely unaware about RB notifications but I find that unlikely. In any event, I'm going to chalk xsebt up as misguided town. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
Yes I still think it was a doublestack and I think grush was vig'd. We'll see when other people post if it gets claimed or not. On the last point I'm talking from the perspective of the mafia team trying to call me mafia so I'm talking as if I'm mafia. It's convoluted sounding but really pretty simple: mafia can RB a member of their own team, say a goon or mason or whatever. Then that person can claim RB'd, for some weak towncred. Mafia in RBing me knew I would be notified, but weren't worried about it making me look townie because they knew they would be able to argue that there was just an intra-mafia RB on me because I would want towncred. They pair that argument with all my stuff about protecting sloosh as further evidence that I want towncred. etc etc. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 06 2012 10:00 VisceraEyes wrote: My take on talismania is that he's spent entirely too much time trying to figure out who the blue roles are and entirely too little time talking about what he finds suspicious or who he finds suspicious. Posts like this: lead me to believe that he's trying to justify his lack of having an opinion of....like anyone. He just goes after whomever is the flavor of the page asking inane questions and then does not give his opinion or any conclusions he's drawn. What I find to be the most suspicious however is his unrepentant attempt at rolefishing. Like...come on guy. COME ON!!! It doesn't get any more anti-town than trying to fish for information about everyone's roles. Yet talismania has repeatedly asked for nameclaims from the town, or asked if people are breadcrumbing X, or referring to people by their claimed character name. It's all BS and I want it out of my town. One of the hallmarks of scum play is that they tend to be lazy when making their cases. Townies go through the thread sometimes multiple times. Townies read filters. Scum latch onto one or two things, usually things that just happened recently in the thread, and make a case out of it. The end result is that they make cases for the wrong reasons. This what just happened with VE, in my opinion. VE states "...lead me to believe that he's trying to justify his lack of having an opinion of....like anyone." How can this be possible? Even xesbt, who isn't paying that much attention to the thread near as I can tell is calling me scum BECAUSE of the accusations and opinions I've had. VE ignores posts like these... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=20#386 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=20#399 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=27#538 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=29#563 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=35#696 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=37#726 ...in which I very clearly am stating plenty of opinions on many different players in the game. Yet VE says I don't have any? This is strong evidence number one that VE did not even bother to take the time to check my filter before writing his post. VE also writes "He just goes after whomever is the flavor of the page asking inane questions and then does not give his opinion or any conclusions he's drawn." Yet this is entirely inaccurate. In fact, sloosh, from whom he borrows the phrase "inane questions" initially thought I was scum because I was asking questions that were IRRELEVANT to the thread, certainly not pertaining to the "flavor of the page". VE got it backwards! And if he had checked my filter and re-read the thread, wouldn't he see all those questions I asked last night? Yeah no one was in the thread but me. That was me methodically going through the entire thread, picking out little nuggets of interest to pursue further. It clearly was not just asking questions about the "flavor of the page". This is strong evidence number two that VE did not really even think that hard about what he was accusing me of. He just rehashed it from memory, combining the phrase "inane questions" from sloosh along with the idea toad already posted that I just ask questions and don't necessarily follow through with conclusions. Finally, VE writes "What I find to be the most suspicious however is his unrepentant attempt at rolefishing. Like...come on guy. COME ON!!! It doesn't get any more anti-town than trying to fish for information about everyone's roles. Yet talismania has repeatedly asked for nameclaims from the town, or asked if people are breadcrumbing X, or referring to people by their claimed character name." There are several interesting observations here. First, I never really rolefished. I character-fished. True at one point I sort of wondered whether BC had made the characters true to the show. I mainly pursued it for my own amusement, to see if I was right. If a lot of things started lining up, I would feel like a genius. Also, it's interesting that he can't really bring himself to say why I would do this is as scum. He dances around the issue, calling it anti-town and saying later that he wants me "out of his town". This is very different from saying that something is scummy. And this is the thing that makes him "most suspicious" of me! Truth is - and he should realize this - what the hell would my motivation be for blatantly asking for people's character names as scum? I guess I'm capable of it but even I can't imagine myself doing something that puts me in the spotlight like that as scum. Second, this statement reveals in fact that he HAS been paying attention to my posting, at least early on. He remembered this obscure post I made about Hier: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=23#455 He also apparently references this post, which is the only one I can find in my filter where I refer to someone as their character name: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=29#569 So what gives? I think he clearly was paying attention early in the game, otherwise he doesn't remember those posts. My guess is he's continued to pay attention as the game goes on (he responds to my questions from last night, for instance). Yet when it comes to building a case on me, it's as though he's entirely ignorant of my filter except for little portions relevant to the character thing. The reason? He's not a townie seriously considering me as scum. He never would make the statements he does in this post if he were. He was simply rehashing what he thought were things other people had said, but ended up getting them a bit wrong. The case is lazy and unresearched, typical of scum play. I think VE is scum, and I think his case on me exemplifies why. There are some other reasons too. 1) His meta is off. Even comparing to bureaucracy he seemed to be his normal loose self. (he also makes much better cases there). 2) I think he was telling the truth about masoning WBG to some extent. I think he did want to prove his innocence with WBG. But I think it's because he's scum, not a townie looking to establish their innocence with a vet so they can focus on scumhunting or whatever reason he gave. 3) If he were scum he would definitely want the mason role, so that at least fits. ##Vote: VisceraEyes | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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talismania
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I kinda agree with you on wbg. I have a twisted hunch that wbg is just trying to see how much stuff he can get away with as scum. The case on xsebt was far too facile and seemed subpar. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On August 07 2012 00:56 CountDropula wrote: Zephirdd, it's time. I'm calling you out. This post is not me bashing you as a player. I'm picking up on general trends in your play and and using our interaction as an extended example. It's written in the second person because I'm confident you will crack under the pressure. You know this too, don't you?  Zeph. You don't think I read your previous games before our confrontation on d1? You were all about facts and concrete arguments in normal mini mafia 2. So when I tried acting level-headed and nooby (the profile of someone I think your town-self would be comfortable with) to gauge if you were the same town Zeph from that game, you acted in the exact opposite way town Zeph would have. Everything you have against me is against me personally. Little did you know, I was the one baiting YOU. Your first posts looked suspicious, but I wasn't sure yet, so I tried to elicit some kind of response. You then validated my suspicion. You blinked first and outed your "plan" to the thread. You weren't being patient. Your goal was not to build a case. Your goal was to make an excuse for the sake of your appearance. This whole game, all your posts have done is feed the chaos. You don't focus. Examples. You are saying nothing. Ok now this is interesting. Calling town reads a scummy move, yet posting town reads. Your play is getting worse. This last post is swiss cheese. Full of holes. This is such a complete contradiction of your town play that it's absolutely ridiculous. Here is a post from normal mini mafia II. No compulsion to go crazy in response to suspicion because you are town in this game. In Mad Men, you say that nothing is concrete because you don't want it to be. You thrive on chaos. And another one from normal mini. Note the importance he places on facts. Day and night. All you are posting in this game is speculative, your case against me is not complete and irrefutable - actually it's the opposite since its based on so little. Town Zeph would never have done this. This is expected from a lazy scum case. Same thing with that "minicase" on talismania. It's well below the standard of your previous town game. You voted me at 8.59 August 4. I had one post at the time. one. Ever since then you've been pushing me as scum. How can you draw a conclusion like that from nothing? You know something we don't, and you were trying to create a distraction from more relevant issues. If you respond with a crazy belligerent post you just lynched yourself. Honestly you are dead with any response you make, because you are so irredeemably bad at playing scum that you will make a mistake and I will pick you apart with it. Now who's the noob scum? Guys, don't bury this post. Please give it serious thought, cause I've got a really strong read on this guy. If I'm wrong about this, I deserve to be lynched. Get this guy into the spotlight and he will crack. Please. Lets lynch Zephirdd and start killing mafia. Ok so this stuff doesn't quite add up. If I follow, what you're saying is that in reading Zephirdd's posts, you thought he might be scum early on. You then went to research previous games of his. After researching it, you noticed that zephirdd was "comfortable" with people that acted "level-headed and nooby". So first question, 1) Can you give us an example from that game of someone acting "level-headed and nooby" and then zephirdd reacting by being "comfortable" with them? You then decided to lay a trap for him. You yourself would act level-headed and nooby by making a case against him, to see how he would respond. He then snaps back at you, and you call this scummy because he didn't wait to build a case on you with other information. Ok I follow that even though it's kind of a stretch. But this is where things go off for me You've laid a trap based on eliciting a particular meta-response He falls for it You... vote for wbg, ninja switch to me, ninja switch to prp, meekly say "oh my votes were kind of rash and jumping the gun. It's a mistake but is it really suspicious?" (paraphrase). Well ok let me think this through. Perhaps it still holds consistency. After all you are accusing zeph for being scummy by springing a trap too early. You had yours, but you didn't want to spring it yet because you wanted more time to build a case. I can sort of buy that. You then accuse him of "feeding the chaos". Personally I don't really see this at all. Has anyone else felt that zephirdd has made this game chaotic? I haven't. The point about calling town reads scummy and posting town reads is a stretch. He's talking about me being scummy because I posted several town reads without explanation. That's different from saying that it's outright scummy to post a town read at all. I think this is confirmation bias looking for more evidence. Next, you can't just say "this post is swiss cheese. Full of holes" and not point out what the holes are. I mean you should give his case an honest response, not just dismiss it out of hand. The last part you should also spell out more. Like you're stating a meta-difference from NMM II to now but you're sort of stating it and going "here, see?" but I'm too obtuse to figure out what exactly is different. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
So you're scum too!? The excitement/activity test strikes again :-) Seriously though I can't be certain I'm just OMGUSing but the case you just made against me is bad for almost the same reasons VE's was bad. + Show Spoiler + On August 07 2012 01:07 Synystyr wrote: Talismania is scum. He pushes this action to confuse town. If Sloosh dies in the night, it gives Talis tons of town cred because he said that medics should protect Sloosh. A little reverse psychology action too by claiming he would kill Sloosh if he were mafia. A hit on Sloosh appears to be be only negative for him and thus making him look innocent by association. He reflects heat off of his scum buddy and himself with this line. Many times throughout the thread, Talis gives WBG a onceover with a "probably town" read and then accuses someone new. Talis is scum with WBG and is trying to protect him. He also wants DTs to check other players other than himself/WBG to avoid being caught. He defends himself before anyone has even pointed a finger at him. This post feels like mafia bait to me, but is instead used so he can point fingers at the person who will make the argument and deflect heat off of him. With the death of Sloosh, it gives him an extremely concrete defense as a townie. Mafia team-roleblock him to make him look like a medic, then doublestack Sloosh in case of a medic. Talis' reasoning to medic sloosh was good, but other players like Toad, Erandorr and SnB come off as town to me and good candidates to be protected over sloosh in the night. There could have been two medics on Sloosh last night, but obviously that was not the case as Sloosh is dead. With that, Talis has everything to gain defensively and gives him a really powerful position to manipulate town as Mafia. His aggressive finger pointing without concrete evidence is his way of appearing town. I'm not buying it. ##Vote Talismana 1) The NK and my alignment is nothing but WIFOM. I mean, help me out other people in this game, but on the outside I wouldn't look at sloosh dying and go "yep that must have been talismania he was doing it for towncred". It could have been, but it just as easily could not have been. It's literally pure WIFOM. So why is this a central plank in your case? By the way - raise your hand out there if you saw the night kill and gave me a ton of town cred. Anyone? 2) Are you really making the argument that I'm scum because WBG is scum, and you're not voting for WBG because you think I'm more likely to be scum yet some of that is predicated on WBG being scum and and and That's why connection cases don't work until you have a flip. For the record, I don't really know what to make of WBG. At the moment, I'm nursing the idea (which you conveniently missed me posting) that actually be scum just trying to get away with as much as possible as a test. Then he can be all superior and yell at us in the endgame. Your DT point also shows you didn't seriously make this case. It's like VE all over again. Yes I said (for good reason) that I would like DTs to check VE and hassy, two of my strongest scumreads at the time. Then I realized after sloosh posted that DTs were just rolecops, not alignment cops so I rescinded everything I said about DTs. But you ignore that completely. And come to think of it my ignorance of how DTs work (as well as toad) is kind of an unintentionally strong town tell. Scum would all know exactly how DTs work because their GF gets to pick what role he appears to DTs, so they would have discussed that somewhat (or at least read the role description) amongst themselves. 3) This is seriously the exact same stuff VE did. I'm "defending myself before anyone has pointed a finger at me" with regards to being roleblocked and the night actions? Well I guess if you took that post in isolation and assumed it was the first post I made on the subject, then yes. But guess what? That wasn't my first post. That was a clarification post. The first post, which you must have seen is here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352668¤tpage=43#850 And it's pretty clearly not me "defending myself before someone accuses me". No it's explaining why I think xsebt is likely to be town, because he seemed genuinely unaware of the correct scum argument. I was aware of the scum argument from daybreak, but there was no need to post it until then, when I think it's a very critical point to make as it directly speaks to this guy's alignment. You cherry-picked this case. What do you make of my case on VE? Does it look like scum wrote it or town wrote it? How and why? If you're going to call me scum, you're going to have to do it based on my whole filter. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:12 JingleHell wrote: Don't forget that Talis has also been attacking anyone who goes after Erandorr, who somehow got away with mostly dismissing the cases that were made against him while he was helping lead a mislynch. Pretty please can you get out of the erandorr tunnel for just a little bit! You talk about no one else and it's starting to concern me. It sounds here like you're setting yourself up for a vote on me later... so what's your take on me? What about toad, who also thinks erandorr is town and actually led the mislynch? Why aren't you mentioning him? | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
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talismania
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talismania
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I think you should mason me. We both think the other is scum, therefore our interactions should be of great value to the town. You can ask me a lot of questions, I can ask you a lot of questions. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
My hunch is that scum has used their masons, and that they are VE and hassy. 2 scum, 3 town. Unless there's more grushes out there. | ||
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talismania
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talismania
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talismania
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talismania
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talismania
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@hier: just read my posts for why I called for protecting sloosh. He is a town leader. He gets votes together and keeps discussion on track. Regardless of who he is pushing this is a good reason to get rid of him. But if mafia was convinced that I was an easy lynch (which I kind of think they were given that I think one of them is VE) then removing sloosh helps their cause, precisely because someone like you could say what you just said (or synystyr, for that matter). | ||
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