EPT/in
I will not be replaced!
I Can't Believe it's not Themed MiniMafia
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
/in I will not be replaced! | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 10 2012 08:06 VisceraEyes wrote: This is a NMM Hopeless. Bugs is just extremely creative with his naming. Hopeless meant Newbie, not Normal. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
So obvious. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 11 2012 06:57 marvellosity wrote: ... if all the people I've hosted/coached/watched from the Newbie games gang up on me, I shall be rather displeased D: Don't worry, I only hold grudges until Day 3. | ||
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Keirathi
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Keirathi
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On July 12 2012 07:07 Vivax wrote: We should lynch Mattchew cause his avatar is a zerg. Keirathi is the serial killer.I know it. You caught me. Game over  | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:22 s0Lstice wrote: hey all, I'm happy to report that I rolled town again. lots of familiar faces for me in this game, which is a bonus. I think I've played with most of the people here, and I've read a game Keirathi was in. let's kill scum. Which one? I hope you mean XIX and not VIII :o | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 12 2012 07:33 s0Lstice wrote: yea XIX were you scum in VIII? Nah I was VT, I just got caught up in a desperate situation arguing for a dumb policy. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
sciberbia wrote: I'm not a big fan of lynching lurkers. Obviously, lurking hurts town, but I don't think lurking is all that alignment-indicative. Seeing as our goal is to lynch scum, I will only give slight preference to lynching the lurker over the active player, everything else being even. I'm not convinced that masons, millers, or roleblockers should claim, but I've never played in a setup quite like this before and I haven't thought much about it. I'll read up on the issue and see if I agree with you guys. Well, ideally since this is not a newbie game, we shouldn't have townies lurking much. Its a bit different in newbie games because people don't really know how to play, and since everyone here should have a decent idea of how to play, then people lurking is strategy rather than ignorance. That's not to say that I think lynching lurkers is a particularly good idea, but looking into lurkers has more merit in this type of game than a newbie one. As far as claims, I myself haven't played in a game where masons/roleblockers claimed, so I'll have to look into it, but I agree with the points made about RB'ers so far, so that at least makes sense. An unclaimed miller causes more confusion than its worth though, and I can't really think of a situation in which a miller wouldn't want to claim. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 12 2012 08:45 talismania wrote: mmm safe to say RB regardless of claiming should NOT use their power unless it makes sense (lategame, etc). I still don't see the harm in claiming given the threat of protection. hell if we have millers, masons, and a rber in public this game shouldn't be that hard. Course if we had all those we probably wouldn't have doctors or medics so ups and downs I suppose. We don't have doctors anyways. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around... why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. | ||
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Keirathi
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But it needs to be used with extreme caution because you probably have a higher chance (or at the very least, equal) of blocking a town blue than blocking a KP if you just pick randomly. There are certainly situations where it can be a useful power, of course, but its much safer just to not use it until you have good, solid reads. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 12 2012 15:14 DropBear wrote: People have in fact said that it shouldn't be used period. Gonzaw talismania Then I completely disagree with them. I'm still not positive they mean that there is a never a situation where RB can be useful, but if they think that then I encourage them to think harder. On July 12 2012 15:14 sciberbia wrote: @keirathi, @Dropbear, @Risen Do you guys have any suspicions yet? Maybe you could comment on my post about risen/marv or about gonzaw's accusations of risen/strongandbig/Mattchew? This thread is too quiet for my liking -- please share some of your thoughts. No, I really don't have much to add. First impressions mean virtually nothing in this game. Its all about pattern recognition and connecting the dots. The only things that have thrown up yellow flags so far were people proposing less than optimal (read: bad) policy plans, ie talis, but I don't feel that was necessarily out of a scum mindset, just didn't think it through very well. However, like I said, its about patterns in behavior which is why I keep notes the way I do (which you saw in NMM XIX). | ||
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Keirathi
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On July 12 2012 17:21 Vivax wrote: ##unvote strongandbig ##Vote Miltonkram Well you said you were watching something on tv yesterday and would start calling out scum soon, so I thought you were monitoring the game. Anyway, that was a pretty informative post about marv, you have my seal of approval for unlurking. Now I wanna see something from Milton :p. He said when he joined that he was going to be afk for 12-24 hours when the game started. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 12 2012 08:50 talismania wrote: pardon me for some half-assed musing: + Show Spoiler + since we've got majority lynch to deal with, what about some sort of nomination system? I don't like how majority allows townies and scum alike to save their opinions on people, especially day one and just hop on whatever bandwagon is happening near the end of the day. It would be nice if, say, 24 hours in everyone puts up a list of three players they want to see in consideration for the lynch and reasons why. Then all that gets tallied up or something and we decide between the popular choices. Actually you wouldn't even need to tally or enforce that. Just having everyone put up three names with reasons should be good enough to move discussion towards a consensus lynch candidate or two (hush s&b yes I am and always will try to get people to post their impressions of others). So I was going back through the thread looking for more information, when this leaped out at me. When I read it the first time through, I didn't think anything of it because I don't have previous experience with you, but if you propose the same plan in every game you play in, then how is it "half-assed musing" this time? It feels like you're pre-emptively making an excuse for a bad plan. And why, as a townie, are you half-assing things anyways? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 13 2012 04:02 Mattchew wrote: are you actively lurking or is it a coincidence that you respond quickly when you are mentioned and then are quiet in other times Err what? On July 13 2012 02:20 talismania wrote: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 02:00 DropBear wrote: ##Vote Vivax the hell? any reasons beyond what marv said? On July 13 2012 03:04 talismania wrote: + Show Spoiler + if you mean this On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote: Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? then I don't see you calling him suspicious, but just asking him questions. Implied suspicion I'll give you, but not calling him out as being suspicious by any means. Also good to know you're just as angry as in bastard 2 :-) On July 13 2012 03:37 talismania wrote: + Show Spoiler + it's half-assed because of the form it took. what I've pushed before is "everyone make case" or "everyone list impressions" and the like. I was trying to think of a way to beat the day one doldrums somewhat and thought of that on the spot and posted it. I figured no one would agree to it but at the very least it would stir the pot. Those posts are reasonably close together, and his response to me was the only one where he had been mentioned. Granted, its just the last 3 posts in his filter before you made this accusation, but it seems like a pretty baseless accusation. Pre-Post edit: sorry I'm replying to this late. I've been working through the 75 posts that were made while I was asleep/at work making notes. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 13 2012 05:46 gonzaw wrote: Keirathi: This post seems a very "I'm trying to contribute here!" one. Spends WAY too much time talking about lurkers and policies, and doesn't even take any interesting stance in the mason/RBer issue (i.e if he had an interesting stance it would be actually a contribution). He just spouts some fluffy stuff about them that only serves to make his post bigger Way too much time? I guess I'm sorry that I'm not Mattchew and can get my full thoughts out in a 1 liner. On July 13 2012 05:46 gonzaw wrote: solstice called him out as "verbose" (which was right): Yet he keeps doing the same thing. He's still "verbose", and his post doesn't contribute shit at all. He says "I'm verbose because of something irrelevant" and "Rehash of what other people said". Not only that, he acknowledges himself that he's rehashing what other people said....yet that doesn't prevent him from posting it and doesn't prevent him from trying to find something else to contribute. I was specifically asked what I thought about the plan. I'm not sure what you really wanted me to say. I came up with an argument against it that was similar to what Mattchew said, but different enough that I thought it was worth posting. On July 13 2012 05:46 gonzaw wrote: His other posts don't call too much attention, yet then he comes out of nowhere with this: ...???? This is so out of place it's not funny. Like, Vivax had 2 votes on him and a case against him, some other FoSes were flowing around (marv on S&B at first, then Vivax on Mattchew, etc); yet when Kei posts he thinks it's more useful to discuss tali's plan again? Not only that, but discuss something so pointless and irrelevant like tali's "motive" for making the plan because it was "half-assed" or some shit? Like....he completely ignored everything else in the thread, wtf? Yea, I admit this was a bit weird to come back and comment on something from 16 hours ago. I was just getting in from work and catching up on the ~70 posts that I missed while I was sleeping and at work. But my initial no comment on it was out of ignorance of his meta of proposing a similar plan every game, which was one of the first things pointed out in my catching up of the thread. | ||
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Keirathi
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On July 13 2012 06:18 marvellosity wrote: Keirathi, can you stop catching up and provide your views on a person or two? Certainly. strongandbig + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote: Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He comes in by leaving himself an excuse for his inactivity that he can fall back on later, then proceeds to lay out basically an entire case based on pure speculation. On July 12 2012 20:46 strongandbig wrote: Plus he even referred to the fact that he does this as town and I find him scummy for it in the same post where he did it. So why are you letting him have a free pass for doing it this time? Together, I feel this is a decent case for him being scum but his recent reply to gonzaw's post gives him so townie cred back in my eye. I'm still keeping an eye on him. DropBear I'm mainly suspicious here of his vote for Vivax. On July 13 2012 02:58 DropBear wrote: I called him out as being suss last page, do you read boy? When his previous calling out of Vivax was simply asking questions + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote: Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? As an aside, its pretty frustrating that so many arguments in this game are based on meta. As someone new to TL, I feel like I am disadvantaged when you all have so much extra information on each other. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 13 2012 07:13 Mattchew wrote: Keirathi cause he's posting super carefully, and his reads seem forced Thats because they were kind of forced. I was specifically asked to make reads, so I responded with the two single scummiest things I've noticed. But I have a method to the way I play this game. Take a look at this. I take notes like this for a reason: so I can recognize patterns in people's play, rather than harping on one or two scummy things they've done. That's why I'm hesitant to make hard reads early. | ||
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Keirathi
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On July 13 2012 07:43 Mattchew wrote: So you know that you do this as town, whats to stop you from doing so as scum? That's the kind of WIFOM crap that gets new people lynched for no good reason. There's been so much arguing about meta in this game so far. The real problem is that you just don't have a meta for me, so you can pick apart things I say without having all this other history to contradict you. The same argument could be made for literally every argument that someone was town because of how they played in the past, including you. | ||
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Keirathi
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On July 13 2012 08:15 strongandbig wrote: - keirathi is probably scum. combination of gut read plus he posted a couple things that look like what I would have done in my scum game when i was uber nub. look at his filter - he accuses two people but doesn't commit to either accusation. That in itself is suspect but not necessarily scum; but the accusations are for reasons that don't make sense. he accuses tali for saying his own plan is stupid and he accuses me for not calling tali scum b/c of his plan, when I was actually saying how I did exactly that in a previous game and tali was town. ##vote: keirathi (for now). No, I called you out because you are giving him a free ride for a bad plan just because he was town and proposed a similar plan when he was town in another game. That doesn't make sense. Either you think proposing the plan is scummy so you push him (like you said you did in the previous game), or you don't think its scummy. You're being inconsistent to the point of defending him for bad play. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 13 2012 08:38 sciberbia wrote: These posts give me the feeling that Keirathi is just looking for easy posts to make. Especially the last one. I don't know why Keirathi feels the need to defend Talis from a very minor accusation from Mattchew. Why wouldn't I defend a completely baseless accusation? He was flat out wrong. People making accusations keeps the game flowing. People making wrong accusations builds false cases and gets mislynches. On July 13 2012 08:38 sciberbia wrote: I could probably look through every other player's filter right now and find an original, insightful reason for accusing somebody. But all of Keirathi's accusations are based off evidence that had already been mentioned or just seems trivial and unconvincing. Not really much I can say to that, because people made their points while I was sleeping. I was specifically asked what things I found scummy, so I replied. If I refused to reply, then I would have looked scummy too. On July 13 2012 08:38 sciberbia wrote: Here is the first time Keirathi talks about anything he finds even mildly suspicious, and only after I prompted him for it. He repeats the already-covered "bad plans" but doesn't really go anywhere with it. I asked him for suspicions and he wrote a few sentences which say basically nothing. Again, I was specifically asked pressed for information. What am I supposed to do, stay silent? I said it before, and proved it in Newbie XVIII: patterns are more important than any single thing. There obviously hadn't been enough time to develop consistent patterns. On July 13 2012 08:38 sciberbia wrote: I don't buy into his point here at all. He brings up talismania's plan yet again, and makes some very easy criticism of Talis. "pre-emptively making an excuse for a bad plan" isn't convincing scum motivation to me. Talis's post is easy to criticize, but I think it's a stretch to say it's scummy. Then we agree to disagree. Giving yourself an out when you're called out for bad play is mafia mentality. The key point I was trying to make with that post, however, was why was talis saying he was proposing a plan without thinking it through (half-assing it), when it was clear to everyone else that had played with him previously that he had proposed a similar plan in those games. He even SAID that his intention was to generate discussion about it. So he had obviously put thought into what he was doing. Why say that he didn't? On July 13 2012 08:38 sciberbia wrote: marv demanded some real reads and Keirathi posted this in response:+ Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 06:55 Keirathi wrote: Certainly. strongandbig + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote: Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He comes in by leaving himself an excuse for his inactivity that he can fall back on later, then proceeds to lay out basically an entire case based on pure speculation. So why are you letting him have a free pass for doing it this time? Together, I feel this is a decent case for him being scum but his recent reply to gonzaw's post gives him so townie cred back in my eye. I'm still keeping an eye on him. DropBear I'm mainly suspicious here of his vote for Vivax. When his previous calling out of Vivax was simply asking questions + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote: Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? As an aside, its pretty frustrating that so many arguments in this game are based on meta. As someone new to TL, I feel like I am disadvantaged when you all have so much extra information on each other. Both of these reads are easy criticisms of players that have already been criticized. Keirathi said strongandbig left himself "an excuse for inactivity that he could later fall back on". This seems like another stretch. strongandbig just said he was watching a movie. That's not a great excuse for inactivity and even so only buys him a couple hours. I highly doubt that a scum strongandbig would be scheming about how to get out of posting for 2-3 hours. Keirathi also criticizes strongandbig's post on marv and balance, but again this had already been covered by other people. No, his excuse for inactivity was being in Europe and not having a cell phone data plan. That gives him an excuse to be inactive any time he wants it. On July 13 2012 08:38 sciberbia wrote: His suspicion of dropbear was based off the vote on vivax. This is yet another easy point to accuse somebody on (a random vote) and again had already been covered in the thread. Again, I agree that it was already covered. I can't magically make up things when someone asks me what my reads are. I pointed out the two scummiest specific events because I was asked to. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 13 2012 10:58 s0Lstice wrote: what do you think of Miltonkram, Marv? I'm not marv, but I'll give my initial impression of your case against him. Your case mostly seems to be about his meta arguments, but all of them were based on games he actually played with those people, not on overall meta. Maybe you're right that he should have gone back and looked at the overall talis meta, but I don't fault him too much for just using meta from games that he was actually a part of and not pouring over thousands of posts of other players to figure out their meta. As an aside: your case against Risen feels stronger than your case against Milton anyways. I'm kind of suprised you voted the way you did. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I'm not saying that that is a bad thing, but people are making arguments about me and no one can refute them with "well he always plays town like that" like they have for most of the other cases in this game. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I have a different way of looking at the game and I don't particularly like the whole "point at finger at everything until something sticks" way that day 1 tends to play out as. I'm fairly good at making reads from connections and patterns, but not from this day 1 bullshit. If that is enough to get my lynched, then so be it. I'll play this way any time that I'm town. But at least you aren't killing off a blue, so I'm not really that upset about it. | ||
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Keirathi
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On July 13 2012 16:46 DropBear wrote: I want to firmly stand by Keirathi, he is one of my strongest town reads right now. Err, what? How do you have a town read on me when literally everyone else has a scum read? | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 13 2012 04:47 gonzaw wrote: About Vivax: (Fuck I need to use these tags again >_>) Marv, I don't agree with your read on Vivax either I don't see a "relatively noob" scum posting like this as soon as the game starts. He "jokingly" accused 3 people by that point, and seemed cheerful about it. That's not how noob scum play (why would they try to "joke" accuse people if it puts them more in the spotlight as SOON as the game starts?), hell they even rarely post at the very beginning of the game at all, and they never appear cheerful or anything. Why? Because they are scum that's why, they have to check their scum QT, check their buddies, talk to them, think how they are going to proceed, etc. Someone more experienced could pull this off, but I even doubt that. That's what made me think Radfield wasn't scum on iGrok's game and I was right, basically no scum jumps right into the action at the very start of the game and start joking around and posting without hesitating at all. I also don't see him posting like this as scum. His vote+unvote on S&B wouldn't make much sense to do it as scum. Why would he do that as scum? Why would he vote someone when almost nobody else had voted at all, and then unvote him immediately after when that guy posts and never speak of him again? It doesn't seem to cause any confusion or push any scum agenda, since if he wanted to cast doubt on S&B he could have continued to do so after his post. That's not entirely definitive to think he's town, but for me it's VERY definitive for not lynching him on D1. | ||
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Keirathi
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Risen + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: For example: this could be DropBear bussing/giving his teammate a way to backtrack on his plan or it could be scum calling out a townie. I'm not saying I even have a scumread on drop as he seems to want a pro-town environment, which is something I'm all for, but this is something that could be used to confirm a connection in my mind at a later point in time. On July 12 2012 15:22 Risen wrote: EBWOP: He could also just be a townie doing pro-town things. This is the most likely option. He's being extremely non-commital. Unlike Vivax, I'm not going to make a case that this was a scumslip, but it doesn't make much sense and doesn't really say what he thinks about the situation. Then: + Show Spoiler + On July 12 2012 16:38 Risen wrote: Yes, this is going places. I like your thinking. I just like your style, my dude. You have my vote! ##vote: Vivax This vote could be forgiven if I had a read on him as townie, since it was a bit out of the blue for Vivax to vote S&B, but he hasn't done anything to push pro-town sentiment yet, so this is a suspiciously easy case to jump on and get a bandwagon. + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 04:06 Risen wrote: Reading through I'm thinking vivax/keirathi/s0Lstice(or gonzaw) team. I'm not as confident on s0Lstice, though. I think he's actually reading me based on my meta, which is fine day1 since there isn't much else to go off of. Keirathi's soft defense of my strongest scum read makes me really weary of him. Vivax, of course, is my strongest scum read and I'm having a pretty difficult time believing that a town gonzaw would defend him. Looks like my vote will be staying on Vivax. I really thought austin's case on me that concluded with a town read was just scummy b/c seriously who goes into that much detail just to end up buddying me? (Goes to the whole, he knows I'm town and therefor just found some stuff in my past games to support his "town-read" case) I'll be gathering everything on Vivax into a single post, but I really don't think we should be lynching anyone else. So I'm confused. You make a read that the scumteam is Vivax, me, and solstice, but you go on to make a case against austin? So do you think austin's town read on your is scummy or not? You certainly make it sound like you think it is, but he isn't in your scumteam. I don't get it. DropBear I still think his vote on Vivax was suspicious, but that's been talked to death, so I'll continue. Along with tali, I feel like he was been entirely overaggressive and disruptive with thinks like + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 02:58 DropBear wrote: I called him out as being suss last page, do you read boy? However, with Risen being my strongest read right now, this really bothers me: On July 14 2012 02:40 DropBear wrote: I do not support a Risen lynch. He stated that he is busy and I liked some of his earlier stuff once he got past filler about smilies. Maybe a scum wouldn't just outright defend a teamate like that on day1, but its such a flimsy reason that it feels like he could get away with it later if they are both scum. Last point: he really hasn't made much of a case on Vivax despite voting him and continuing to vote him. His only posts that even mention Vivax at all: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote: Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? On July 13 2012 02:00 DropBear wrote: ##Vote Vivax On July 13 2012 02:58 DropBear wrote: I called him out as being suss last page, do you read boy? On July 13 2012 17:01 DropBear wrote: I'll defend Milton for you  He started late so hasn't posted as much. We knew that was happening before the games started. Your point 1 directly helps people get a read on him. This is extremely positive town play. In your point 2, you say how the plan allows pointless posting and how that doesn't help town, but then turn around and lambast Milton for pointing this out. Contradiction much? There is no real pressure from talismania on austin at all. Milton is right, talismania IS only defending the plan and not committing to accusations. Three reads is enough for day 1, no? Posting your read on every single person is just clutter. You should be less obvious in defending your buddy. SCUM TEAM Vivax talismania On July 14 2012 02:40 DropBear wrote: HOST YOU MISSED MY VOTE FOR VIVAX I am not going to be here for lynch time, it's 4am my time. I am voting for Vivax still. I would like to see the lynch between him and talismania. I do not support a Milton lynch. I have already said this. I do not support a Risen lynch. He stated that he is busy and I liked some of his earlier stuff once he got past filler about smilies. On July 14 2012 02:55 DropBear wrote: This aimed at gonzaw. Made perfect sense, the thread was barely 4 pages old and gonzaw was saying people were lurking. This because Vivax is scum. There's not a case in there, just a lot of saying Vivax is scum without any reasoning to back it up. Pre-post edit: @austin - regarding Vivax, his early play being in the spotlight, plus him being Crazy(TM) as town (in Newbie XVIII he fake claimed DT as town, and even though he was right, cost us a lot of timer arguing and would have lost us the game if he was wrong), I just feel like for now that he's reasonably townie. | ||
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On July 14 2012 05:16 Risen wrote: Keirathi please update your thoughts on me regarding the case I have just posted......... I will if you will respond to what I said about you, particularly the part involving austin. | ||
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On July 14 2012 05:25 Risen wrote: What about it? I thought he was being scummy b/c who makes a case that big and concludes towny? After logical thinking on my part, this isn't a reason to vote for him. As I said when I originally posted I would be voting for him I was driving and mainly just skimming the thread on my phone. I also like how in order for you to actually do your job as a towny I have to respond to you. Really? You asked me to update my thoughts on you. How you responded to the most important section of my post has more bearing on my thoughts towards you than your case on Vivax does. I'll agree with you that your case on Vivax has some merit, but I feel like Vivax is playing like the crazy Vivax I've played with before as a townie. Not that that is proof, but its reason enough for me not to vote him today. | ||
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On July 14 2012 05:34 marvellosity wrote: already commented on Vivax, see above I said earlier I didn't want to lynch Dropbear, now I'm not so sure. He's pushing Vivax on the basis of practically nothing, and he came out strongly defending Milton - I believe others thought scum wouldn't do this - only because he was having an argument with his scumread Vivax He also says Keirathi is a strong townread with no explanation. What have we got to hold Dropbear accountable for so far?? He said he meant Milton, not me. It was a strange slip though. | ||
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On July 14 2012 05:47 Risen wrote: Hey marv wanna see something funny? Now you're reaching. He said talking about meta is a way of contributing without contributing, not that using meta in arguments is useless. | ||
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On July 14 2012 05:51 Risen wrote: EBWOP: And NOW I'm reaching? So everything before is ok, but NOW I'm reaching. If I've only just started reaching what do you think of my case Keirathi? I already said what I thought of your case. | ||
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On July 14 2012 05:32 Keirathi wrote: I'll agree with you that your case on Vivax has some merit, but I feel like Vivax is playing like the crazy Vivax I've played with before as a townie. Not that that is proof, but its reason enough for me not to vote him today. | ||
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On July 14 2012 05:56 Risen wrote: That's your response. That's your reasoning. My case has merit, but whatever I'm still not voting for him b/c of meta. Got it. I think there are better cases today than Vivax. I fail to see how that is bad reasoning. Does your post have merit? Yes. Does it have more merit than cases against you or Drop? Not to me. I'm not really sure what to make of you coming in all of a sudden at the deadline and balls-to-the-wall tunneling someone. So I'm going to: ##Vote DropBear For now. | ||
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DropBear I still think his vote on Vivax was suspicious, but that's been talked to death, so I'll continue. Along with tali, I feel like he was been entirely overaggressive and disruptive with thinks like + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 02:58 DropBear wrote: I called him out as being suss last page, do you read boy? However, with Risen being my strongest read right now, this really bothers me: Maybe a scum wouldn't just outright defend a teamate like that on day1, but its such a flimsy reason that it feels like he could get away with it later if they are both scum. Last point: he really hasn't made much of a case on Vivax despite voting him and continuing to vote him. His only posts that even mention Vivax at all: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 01:39 DropBear wrote: Vivax I am very confused as the reasoning behind your voting so far. Why did you choose strongandbig initially? What do you mean by an informative post? Cos he made a case he must be town or something? What are the differences in sciberbia you talk about? On July 13 2012 02:00 DropBear wrote: ##Vote Vivax On July 13 2012 02:58 DropBear wrote: I called him out as being suss last page, do you read boy? On July 13 2012 17:01 DropBear wrote: I'll defend Milton for you He started late so hasn't posted as much. We knew that was happening before the games started. Your point 1 directly helps people get a read on him. This is extremely positive town play. In your point 2, you say how the plan allows pointless posting and how that doesn't help town, but then turn around and lambast Milton for pointing this out. Contradiction much? There is no real pressure from talismania on austin at all. Milton is right, talismania IS only defending the plan and not committing to accusations. Three reads is enough for day 1, no? Posting your read on every single person is just clutter. You should be less obvious in defending your buddy. SCUM TEAM Vivax talismania On July 14 2012 02:40 DropBear wrote: HOST YOU MISSED MY VOTE FOR VIVAX I am not going to be here for lynch time, it's 4am my time. I am voting for Vivax still. I would like to see the lynch between him and talismania. I do not support a Milton lynch. I have already said this. I do not support a Risen lynch. He stated that he is busy and I liked some of his earlier stuff once he got past filler about smilies. On July 14 2012 02:55 DropBear wrote: This aimed at gonzaw. Made perfect sense, the thread was barely 4 pages old and gonzaw was saying people were lurking. This because Vivax is scum. There's not a case in there, just a lot of saying Vivax is scum without any reasoning to back it up. | ||
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On July 14 2012 06:45 marvellosity wrote: I might get in trouble for this tomorrow but I'm starting to think i'd prefer a vivax lynch over a dropbear lynch Why? | ||
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On July 14 2012 06:47 Vivax wrote: Since noone even sees my case on Risen after his spamming seizure, let's at least get some lynch and hope for the best, but I don't have a good read on this guy, sadly: ##unvote ##Vote DropBear What discomforts me about this is that Milton voted for him, and I find Milton scummy. That's pretty terrible reasoning. | ||
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On July 14 2012 06:55 sciberbia wrote: oh ow NOW vivax is giving me a really townie feel. Does anybody else see his last two posts as townie? Of course. This is exactly the way Vivax played townie in Newbie XVIII. Desperate fighting once he is liable to be voted. He even went to far in that game as to actually fake claim DT. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. | ||
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On July 14 2012 07:05 gonzaw wrote: What a shitty day. Only Vivax flipping scum would lighten it up but I doubt it at this point, specially since S&B/Keriathi/etc all voted Vivax without much incentive (at least from what I read, maybe I missed something when I skimmed it) I didn't vote Vivax at all. I refused to vote him, in fact. | ||
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On July 14 2012 07:57 marvellosity wrote: Am I allowed to shout at Risen for shouting at me for defending Vivax now? No. You were right about him but voted him anyways. You dont get the right to shout at someone about your arguments being correct if you didn't really believe them yourself. In fact I would make the argument that it gives people the right to shout at you. | ||
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On July 15 2012 06:48 marvellosity wrote: there isn't much more than i've said in my filter. I thought Dropbear's contribution was pretty bad but the all round aggression made me think he was townie I defended Vivax on his meta and then basically I had to choose who was more likely to flip scum between him and Dropbear. In the end it was just the fact that I'd got some townie vibes from Dropbear this game rather than thinking someone was townie because of other games I guess. I find it pretty difficult to explain actually (i tried shortly after the lynch and just ended up deleting it). I'm not at all used to lynching people who aren't my choice (as either alignment!) Did you even say who your choice was? All I seem to remember was a bunch of non-commital reads and saying you were frustrated that there wasn't an easy target. | ||
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I will make a quick note that that I'm pretty flippin' suspicious of sciberbia. I'll look more into the tali cases, and post my case against scib in the morning though. | ||
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sciberbia wrote: I'm feeling like vivax would be my personal top choice right now followed by Keirathi, but nobody else seems that interested in lynching them. sciberbia wrote: That said, I'd be willing to consolidate on dropbear because the only players I find definitively scummier than him (you and Vivax) don't seem to be getting lynched. sciberbia wrote: I think there is least resistance to a dropbear lynch. I'd be willing to consolidate on dropbear. Is anyone strongly opposed to a dropbear lynch? sciberbia wrote: @marv vote vivax already. he has a lot of votes and you're suspicious of him I can't really say why this bothers me, but the fact that Vivax ended up being lynched really made this series of posts stand out as strange to me, especially the last one. Marv had voiced suspicions on literally everyone that was a lynch candidate at that point (Vivax, Drop, and Risen) and wanted an austin vote which scib strongly disagreed with. + Show Spoiler + On July 15 2012 20:42 sciberbia wrote: I feel much better about my reads right now than I did D1. Here are top 3 most suspicious: 1) talismania: I really want to lynch him. 2) gonzaw: I have a few minor points against him, but other than that it's gut feeling. He reminds me a lot of mafia Xatalos from NMM XV. gonzaw and talis are linked as scumbuddies in my mind. I want to see talis flip red before we lynch gonzaw. 3) keirathi: still seems somewhat suspicious; mostly for reasons I've already stated I really need a break from this game so I'm just going to make a case on talismania before getting some much-needed sleep. It's almost 7am here. I'll post thoughts on other people tomorrow. My case on talismania fixation on his plan This has already been talked about in other cases; those of austinmcc and miltonkram I believe. It's a bit weird how wrapped up he gets in proposing his plan, defending his plan, and analyzing reactions to his plan. In particular, I find his assemblage of reactions suspicious: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 00:43 talismania wrote: Reactions to talismania's Shitty Plan (for those who care) + Show Spoiler + marvellosity On July 12 2012 09:47 marvellosity wrote: naw, I'm not killing anyone based on one post right at the beginning of the game (especially as pregame was quite active/friendly, it spilled over) I'd rather lynch talis for his never-ending bullshit on listing names and reasons. Seriously, 24 hours into day 1 and we're supposed to come up with reasons on 3 different people for why they might be scum? It's just nonsense. Or... wait for it... I have an idea! If someone says something a person finds scummy, they can call them out and bring it to the thread! Wow, marv, you say - an amazing plan! People shouldn't be 'forced' to make effort, the making of the effort willingly is what helps gives us our reads on people. Predictably shits on it, suggests policy lynching me out of his annoyance that I keep proposing these dumb plans. gonzaw On July 12 2012 09:36 gonzaw wrote: So, if the lynch was right now I'd want to kill one of these 3 guys: You can see the recurring theme in all 3 (just 1 post, promising something/appearing they are eager to start but not doing anything else later). marv, talismania, anybody active, what do you think about these guys? If you had to kill one of them which one would you choose and why? (if you don't want to kill anyone then say so). Also this guy could die too: But at least he put a little bit more effort (although that's not town-telling) Dropbear and Milton haven't even posted, but well we can't do anything about it. Actually follows the plan - as I said seems rather townie. Especially the timing. Mattchew On July 12 2012 10:46 Mattchew wrote: Also, talis has the worst plan ever with his 3 people thing. That just allows people to half ass push some stupid reads and then connections theories run wild and everything turns to shit shits on it solstice On July 12 2012 11:04 s0Lstice wrote: Keirathi, assuming you are still around... why so verbose about lurkers? what do you think of talismania's plan? I actually don't see him reacting to it at all yet he asks keirathi about it. Interesting. He did react to gonzaw's post reacting to mine. austinmcc On July 12 2012 11:33 austinmcc wrote: That's because there's basically nothing to my first post except "Millers claim," which isn't helpful. What I can add is that I think talismania's 3-case plan is bad, but that seems to be the general sentiment. Forcing arbitrary requirements on everyone isn't really going to help us, and is going to clog up the thread later. People are going to make halfhearted cases to try to reach that number, someone will inevitably only find 1-2 people scummy and we'd end up in some "does x not making 3 cases = scummy?" discussion, and we also might end up lynching people that EVERYONE finds a little bit scummy rather than someone that a few people have a strong scumread on for good reasoning. Can also add that I haven't played with gonzaw, but I've obsed his recent games. Anyone here feel like they do a good job reading him, and if so, can you post some tips? I've found that I almost always end up reading him as scum, because he is active enough and posts enough that I keep finding scummy things to latch on to. Had him scum at the end of liar game just prior to the katina lynch, but also found him really scummy in the recent MTG because I felt like some of the plans he pushed hard were anti-town (check the obsqt early on, although I didn't post much there). So...any magical tricks for getting the right read on Gonzaw? Actually this reads scummy again on the second go-round too. He says he's about to "add" something but literally just copies/expands on what marv said and doesn't add anything at all. Keirathi On July 12 2012 11:54 Keirathi wrote: Sorry was getting dinner. I was verbose because I have some shared experience with sciberbia, whom I was replying to. I know that most (all?) of his TL mafia experience was in newbie games, and the dynamic is just different when you can assume that people know how to play the game. As far as talismania's plan, I feel like it makes it too easy for mafia to blend in. The more townies you have making arguments against other townies, the easier you can push mislynches and not have to take any blame for them. There are other things wrong with it, but Mattchew and austin beat me to it. No need rehashing what they said. Mmm I think this is innocuous. He might not even have responded if he hadn't been asked to. DropBear On July 12 2012 15:18 DropBear wrote: This is silly. This isn't going to happen and would just waste time. On the majority lynch, day 1 this tends to be a right kerfuffle. I can't think of any system that has ever worked on day 1 in games I have been part of. So fuck a system, we deal with it when the time comes. There should be solid candidates by then anyway. Actually this doesn't sit that well with me at all. Conversation had started to move on and then he brings it back to my plan and says the same shit everyone else did. I also don't like his misrepresentation of my views on the roleblocker's use of their power. strongandbig On July 12 2012 16:51 strongandbig wrote: Hey bros For people who weren't in ssb or mtg mafias, just wanted to let you guys know I am currently in Europe, where I don't have a cell phone data plan. This means I can only post when I have wifi, which is a change from my normal method. I've also been busy at work so please don't expect much from me before 8pm CET. Now for serious stuff: I'm going to be watching marv like a motherfuking hawk. I think hosts tend to try to "balance" games sometimes by tweaking their scum team selection; however, that can and has led to extra info from town through balance speculation. Marvellosity makes an extremely tempting player for hosts to do this kind of balancing, because his scum play is empirically very good, but he isn't a "veteran" so he's not likely to be the subject of balance speculation. I also suspect bugs of doing this kind of balancing. + Show Spoiler [reasons, from wheel of fortune.] + The last of his c++ games I played in was wheel of fortune. That was a stacked game and I was one of the worst players in it, although I did eventually manage to figure out the scum team (and got shot for having correct reads before I could push some of them). With the benefit of hindsight, that scum team looks almost perfectly balanced for the player base. Radfield was town, ace was scum. VE and Forumite were both good players, but only on the edge of being full-on vets. I firmly believe that town would have won that game if Radfield hadn't decided to use a DT check on Ace, who was godfather. That kind of closeness is the sign of a well-balanced game; and the odds that both town and scum would have their best player as their best power role are very small from pure chance. So what does this mean? I am NOT proposing to policy lynch marvellosity; if he's town he can be a great asset, and besides that's totally against the spirit of the game. What I AM saying is that I think when someone points out something scummy he does, we should take it pretty seriously. Pure chance wouldn't explain why he has rolled scum in something like half his games since our first game together (noob 6) while I have rolled it once - him being good and me not does explain that. NOW: having told you why you should pay attention, I'm going to point out something scummy marv has done. That thing is: propose/say he would be okay with lynching Talismania. Talismania's plan IS anti town. When Ace is host and he tells an obs QT how good a plan is for scum, you better believe he knows what he's talking about. Systematic case proposing plans give scum an excuse to make shitty reads and blend in, because everyone is making shitty cases and dumb reads. That kind of plan dilutes good information and adds bad information. HOWEVER: Talismania proposes this plan as town. All the time. Like, every game. Usually "pushing scummy plans" is a decent scum tell; but this specific player pushing this specific plan is not. And Marvellosity should know this. Marv has obs'd at least two games where Talismania proposed this plan or a variation of it (ssb, bangbang). Tali has proposed this in other games. Marv is the kind of player who pays attention; he should also know that I've pushed tali hard for these plans in the past, as have others. Marv putting tali forward as his first lynch candidates comes down to an easy push on an easy target for reasons he should know are bad. Marv, I'm watching you. + Show Spoiler [on Talismania, briefly] + I'm not saying tali is an easy target in general, like kenpachi or grush would be. He's not that kind of shitty player slash bad case magnet. It's just that for marv to propose him for lynch based on that plan is scummy. He's right about me always pushing this idea althoguh I think he's overreacting to marv's reaction. So actually not that many people commented on it even though I thought like everyone did oops. My views: scummy responses: austinmcc, dropbear null responses: marv, mattchew, keirathi, strongandbig townie response: gonzaw did not respond directly although was in the thread: Risen, sciberbia, solstice This just feels like one of those busy-work summaries that scum do to make it look like they are contributing. It also ties in with his insisting that his plan has promoted discussion. Overall, all this talk about the plan is unproductive and slightly suspicious. consistently wishy/washy Here are some examples of some wishy/washiness. Several of these raise yellow flags for me: + Show Spoiler + On July 13 2012 07:54 talismania wrote:I don't like milkton's last post either. There's a touch of omgus to my feelings there but I also think his argument he just made about me doesn't make much sense. Although come to think of it I dunno why he would come in out of the cold and start making a case on me does seem a bit random as scum. austin's reply to my poke at his post was rather overwrought which fits with my model of him as nervous scum but I guess that could just be the way the guy is too. solstice you said you know him - what do you make of it? + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 01:32 talismania wrote: solstice: I really like the case marv made on him, actually, but for some reason I don't know if I can move beyond a null on him. Like I think the first half of his filter is scummy (the part marv showed), the second half townie. Overall he is playing fairly relaxed, which is usually a town indicator as well. On the other hand he's also been fairly focused on just a couple players, which is a scum indicator. Keirathi: Well he's conditional town or conditional scum at this point. Like I think he was way too neutral in the beginning as someone else pointed out but he's also onto dropbear as I am. + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 01:43 talismania wrote: actually that is a decent question. I originally ranked them that way in my head from way back when I analyzed reactions to my posts and it sort of has stuck since then. Mmm I guess thinking it over I can't think of a fantastic reason for one over the other to be honest with you. + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 06:00 talismania wrote: @risen I don't know what to make of the risen v vivax to be honest. I liked your case against him but I'm still stuck on dropbear. and if dropbear is scum I can't see vivax being scum either. mmm I better not be tunneling again like I did last time to HiroPro. + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote: I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit. + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote: I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. especially that last one. seriously wtf.. I don't like his approach to the lynch I feel like we were just lynching between a bunch of townies yesterday. If I had to guess, I'd say there is only 1 scum between our many lynch candidates: dropbear, vivax, miltonkram, s0Lstice, austinmcc, risen, and keirathi. So I think the mafia must have felt very at ease and not really cared too much who actually got lynched. Talis was just too calm in the hour leading up to the lynch. For example, what was he doing in between these two posts: + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 06:08 talismania wrote: I dunno. I'm starting to think my case on austin is actually stronger than my case on dropbear was in the first place to be perfectly honest. However milton and keirathi also brought up good points on dropbear I think. Unless they were just trying to nudge a bandwagon along? Mmm shit. Where has gonzaw gone? I kinda expect him to be in here cracking the whip near deadline. On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote: I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. This was a crucial 31 minutes. I don't think any of us actually had any idea who would end up being lynched at this time. But what was talis doing? Looks like he was just sitting around waiting for us to lynch a townie. In the last hour before the lynch, he really does nothing productive at all. He just says a bunch of neutralish things that don't really go anywhere. I also have serious problems with this post just after we lynched vivax: For reference, here is the full extent of his defense on Vivax: Seriously? He says that he hopes he is "completely wrong" about vivax, but he hardly defended Vivax at all. If he really felt strongly about Vivax being town, he should have been positively shouting at people like me/marv/austin/strongandbig to put votes on dropbear instead of vivax, especially seeing as dropbear was supposedly his #1 scumread. But he was just saying useless shit like this: + Show Spoiler + On July 14 2012 06:39 talismania wrote: I kinda want to but I kinda don't. My feelings atm are that worst comes to worst, if I have to be wrong about someone I'd rather have a dead town dropbear than a dead town austin because at least austin seems to be trying. On July 14 2012 06:54 talismania wrote: argh wtf I don't want to swtich but I will if we need too. On July 14 2012 06:57 talismania wrote: jesus risen why are you so excited? According to what talis has said, he really thought dropbear was scum, and he really thought vivax was town. I was a hell of a lot less sure than talis supposedly was, and even I was more invested in the lynch. All of his posts leading up to the lynch seriously bother me. throws suspicion on easy targets (my townreads) He throws suspicion on a bunch of easy targets: dropbear, austin, risen, s0Lstice, milton. In fact, he threw suspicion onto just about every lynch candidate, and onto nobody that was not a lynch candidate. His reads are just going with the flow. I feel like he is just gonzaw's parrot. He's quite friendly with both gonzaw and marv (people with most thread control IMO). does not defend his townreads He never makes an against-the-grain townread. In his entire filter, I don't think he defends anybody at all. He supposedly had townreads on vivax, strongandbig, and mattchew, all 3 of which were under fire at some point, and none of which he did any defending for. This is suspicious to me. I have a really good feeling about this case. Can we please lynch talis today? ##Vote talismania This is his case against tali. A lot of it is a strong case (particularly the first 2 points) that I could get behind, but besides the obvious misunderstanding of tali's post at the end of d1 that was already gone over (point 3), I feel like the last 2 points are just stretching to add some more depth to your case and hoping no one checked up on it. 1) "Gonzaw's parrot" - + Show Spoiler + gonzaw Townie Reads: Vivax, solstice, scib, tali, me; Risen, me; austin, Scum Reads: Risen, S&B, matt; austin, S&B, me, drop, risen; S&B, tali, austin; Tali, Drop, solstice, matt, risen, me; Null Reads: marv, austin, Risen;; Arguments against: Drop, Risen, Milton, matt; matt, Risen; Matt, Risen, votes: Drop, me, vivax;;tali (Note: the ;'s indicate changing from day to night and vice versa) That's just a quick list and I probably missed some. You could claim that literally anyone was gonzaw's parrot and you'd be mostly correct. As far as I can tell, tali has only really made pushes for Drop and austin, so its a pretty weak argument imo. (As an aside, it also bugs me that you use particular phrases that other people have used i.e Risen calling s0lstice "Vivax's parrot" and gonzaw saying marv was trying to "lynch all his town reads". I don't think this is a particularly strong point, because the phrases arent unique, it was just something I noticed.) 2) The defending town reads point - I don't find those town reads. Care to point them out? | ||
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But by this point, I had already done all the "towntelling" things that you give matt poins for pointing out in your Matt defense post. What happened to change your mind when I really didn't do anything during the night and was out of town for basically the entire day? | ||
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Also I really don't know what I think about tali. There's so many cases against him, and they are all decent, but none of them are damning I think. Maybe enough little things adds up to him being scum, but I remain unconvinced. Almost everything about him is either directly relating to his plan, or relating to things that branched out from his plan. I agree that his plan was really bad and I don't want to support bad play, but like Milton pointed out, he was entirely too invested in it. I don't really see scum as staying that invested into pushing something to intentionally bring attention onto himself. Something about this case and being so little opposition just feels bandwagonny. If I'm wrong, it probably means I get lynched tomorrow because of this post though | ||
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24 hours ago, his lynch was by no means certain. Reminds me of a post someone made yesterday about there being 2 options: 1) Scum Tali: Correct play is to push other targets while deflecting attacks on you 2) Town Tali: Correct play is to push other targets and defelect attacks on you Neither of the correct responses is to disappear for 24 hours. I feel like disappearing is more of a frustrated townie trait than a frustrated scum one. | ||
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On July 17 2012 06:05 austinmcc wrote: If you don't want to vote for talis, then who DO you want to vote for? My top 3 candidates are (in no specific order): sciberbia, Mattchew, Risen With big MAYBES on talismania and DropBear. I wouldn't really feel comfortable voting anyone else, and probably won't vote Tali even though I have him as a maybe. | ||
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On July 17 2012 06:12 s0Lstice wrote: you are assuming he plays 'correctly.' what's the incorrect town response? Erm. An incorrect response is anything but the correct response :o | ||
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On July 17 2012 06:23 gonzaw wrote: So talis has 6 votes only, the minimum amount to lynch If someone unvotes talis you better have a fucking good reason to, since you'll force NL. Keirathi what are you planning to do? And will you answer those questions I presented to you? (I.e I want your thoughts on other issues, not just talis/sciberbia). I'm not sure I can write up a solid post in 30 minutes before the day ends, but I can just give you some freehand thoughts about each of them. Risen - I laid out a case against him on day1, then I was thrown for a loop by his balls-to-the-wall posting style at the end of day1. It initially gave me cause to vote Drop instead of him because I wasn't sure what to make of it, but when Vivax flipped town and he started the moaning about being suprised he was so long, I started leaning back more towards him being scum and the whole thing was a ruse. Coupled with the fact that he hasn't done much today, I feel like he is a reasonably strong candidate. Mattchew - Obviously everyone has already talked about him being absent and leaving his vote on sciberbia d1, then not giving much in the way of explanation. But I'm actually more interested in the sciberbia+mattchew connection. His vote on day1 was a total throwaway vote on sciberbia who had 0 chance of getting lynched, his case against tali came just a few hours after sciberbia's case against Tali (and objectively felt pretty weak, but that's neither here nor there), and then sciberbia came to his defense and wrote out a long post about him being townie. None of that is particularly terrible, but if you think about it with them as a scumteam, it's pretty fishy. s0lstice/s&b - I'm pretty staunchly null on both of them. Running out of time so I'll give more info on them after the flip. | ||
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I don't really think Drop or s0lstice are great cases either. So who the eff to vote for. My gut read on a throwaway vote, or the popular read with no conviction?! | ||
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On July 17 2012 06:54 sciberbia wrote: fuck gtg talis's last couple posts are giving me a sickly feeling, but I feel like we have to lynch him. I hope to god he is scum cuz I'm going to feel great if he is and terrible if he's not I'll be back in a little while x_x That's the exact same shit you did on day1 All the conviction until the last minute then suddenly you don't believe it anymore when its already too late to do anything about it. | ||
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On July 17 2012 07:03 gonzaw wrote: LOL I actually thought sciberbia or someone got a scum check on him (as cop), but that may seem impossible since he's GF Yea the thought crossed my mind too for why he was pushing so hard. | ||
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On July 17 2012 07:15 strongandbig wrote: wait holy shit he actually broke his wrist that wasn't a lie? and he still flipped scum? Talismania if you tried the "I broke my wrist" gambit I would be in so much admiration. Also sounds a lot like Ace lynching a townie. I was super ready to jump all over mattchew but the fact that talismania flipped scum makes me feel a lot better about matt. I think Matt is smart enough that he could/would have bussed Tali. It does make me feel better about scib though. | ||
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On July 17 2012 08:21 sciberbia wrote: @gonzaw I have not considered all your setup discussion scummy as of yet, but now you're blatantly contradicting yourself. Seriously dude, wtf is with this? @Keirathi I know I promised you a response to your post, but some stuff has come up and I kinda wanna take a break from the game anyway. I'll respond in like 2-4 hours. Does anyone else have the feeling that there is no framer in this setup? Having both a framer AND a godfather AND the possibility of millers seems like anti-cop overkill. If there is indeed no framer, then all cop checks from now on are guaranteed accurate. If anybody tries to claim miller AFTER there is a guilty on them, I will be extremely suspicious of them since we all agreed they should claim. Keep in mind framer cannot self-frame You are right, I doubt there are all 3. And no Millers claimed, so I think Godfather + Framer is a decent possibility with no one claiming being roleblocked n1. | ||
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On July 17 2012 10:53 austinmcc wrote: SnB changes his vote from dropbear to talis and was the hammer. Very interesting. | ||
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On July 13 2012 08:24 Keirathi wrote: No, I called you out because you are giving him a free ride for a bad plan just because he was town and proposed a similar plan when he was town in another game. That doesn't make sense. Either you think proposing the plan is scummy so you push him (like you said you did in the previous game), or you don't think its scummy. You're being inconsistent to the point of defending him for bad play. Just reposting this. Anyone else find it more suspicious now that tali flipped scum? | ||
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On July 18 2012 06:53 s0Lstice wrote: Lol, what happened to me being town because I am goin after you hard? Err what? Am I missing something in his filter? I read over Night 1 and yesterday again and I don't see that sentiment anywhere, but I seem to remember someone saying it. Bleh guess I'll go back through the thread :o | ||
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On July 18 2012 07:05 NoSmurfHere wrote: Day 3 Austinmcc, marine squad leader (mason) had his limbs ripped from his body. 48 hours to get your votes in. 9 alive, 5 to lynch. Holy... Interesting. | ||
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On July 18 2012 07:10 Risen wrote: I wish you could know the alignment of your mason buddy. Even with whoever it is claiming there's no way to know that he's town. (Unless I'm missing something?) I'm hoping he breadcrumbed it. Going to look through his filter and see if I can find something. Also try to find who spent a decent amount of time defending him. | ||
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On July 18 2012 07:11 Risen wrote: EBWOP: Nvm, I misunderstood mason role. Awesome! Please whoever was his mason buddy claim RIGHT NOW. Well, scum could still claim to be the other mason, but I'm not really sure it would be in their best interest to do so, because when the real second Mason claims, then they are pretty boned. | ||
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Pretty sure I know who the other mason is, but I'll let them claim. | ||
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On July 18 2012 07:24 Risen wrote: Town in my eyes me strongandbig s0Lstice dude whatever it's summer miltonkram dropbear keirathi sciberbia mattchew (completely dependent on gonzaw flip or mason claim) scummy as fuck gonzaw (I'm going to hold that the misspelling of milton's name was a scumslip, also see other cases posted) ##vote gonzaw List order is from town in my eyes to scum in my eyes. If gonzaw flips scum Mattchew becomes scummier in my eyes (unless he's the mason partner in which case confirmed town). I don't think milton is scummy b/c why would his teammates misspell his name. Dropbear and tali beign scum would mean double scum up for lynch d1 and I don't see that as likely. Scib and Keir could be swapped, I can't tell whether my dislike of Keir is b/c he doesn't like me or b/c I genuinely find him scummy. I would really like to claim so if the mason could claim right now I'd be pretty pleased. There's a good chance that with mason claim we might just be winning (regardless of gonzaw alignment) Completely off topic, but this might be my favorite post ever. I'm literally laughing at how blatantly obvious it is. | ||
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On July 18 2012 07:58 gonzaw wrote: I knew I wouldn't die tonight, that doesn't make me "confirmed scum" Hmm, I don't know if I'll have the time before going to the gym of doing shit, since I'm working a little bit more on Bureaucracy mafia. However, there is one thing you guys can do: Read Mattchew's case, read my filter, and post if you agree that I'm scum or not (if you agree I guess you could vote me maybe) Wait... Was austin masoned with someone? If so...why didn't both CLAIM ON D1????? I'm inclined to think there are either 3 or 1 masons and austin was on his own rather than they didn't choose to get 2 confirmed townies by D1 (I'd like to think of austin not as dumb as that >_> ) Hmm, still doesn't matter right now since they weren't misslynched or killed on N1. Err what, I don't think 1 mason is even possible? There would be no point whatsoever because he's then just a VT. | ||
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On July 18 2012 08:08 gonzaw wrote: Mattchew made that "case" against me and some people were starting to tingle with the idea of me being scum Holy crap this bandwagon is worst than I thought. This post right here is so bad Are you just not reading the thread or just trying really really hard to make it seem like you aren't? | ||
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On July 18 2012 08:18 gonzaw wrote: Yes I did, and I didn't understand shit of what happened Okay, I'm not understanding anything here. Can someone please explain to me wtf happened right now? Risen said the mason should claim, then said that he wanted to claim but he didn't, then people took it like he already claimed (making me think he claimed mason) but that doesn't make sense with what he said earlier. Now I'm "confirmed scum" and if I'm scum Mattchew is scum as well (wtf?), and me not dying means solstice is confirmed town somehow. You can see why I am confused as fuck over here. I'd like some explanation. If that's the best read of this situation that you can come up with, then even if you are townie I don't trust basically any conclusions you would draw for the rest of the game. | ||
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I still like parts of the case against gonzaw, but I'm more wary of the claim now. ##unvote | ||
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On July 18 2012 09:44 Risen wrote: Yup I've been focusing on not being shot, but with mason claim (provided it isn't you or s&b) we pretty much have this game in the bag. Not sure how that makes you unvote gonzaw, though, unless you think the scum team is s&b and I, in which case that's quite the about face. Regardless, I think you have to lynch gonzaw or me today. I'll flip cop and then you lynch gonzaw or you lynch gonzaw and he flips either town or scum, if scum I die at night b/c scum can't afford me checking around and if town it's pretty WIFOM on whether scum lets me live another night so I get lynched the next night. That's the thing. I think no matter what, you don't die tonight since you don't actually have an investigation on gonzaw. It would make more sense to kill the 100% confirmed townie in the mason and say you were bussing gonzaw in exchange for clearing yourself. I'm not really sure what the best course of action is though, since we have 2 mislynches available barring any JK saves. | ||
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On July 18 2012 11:04 gonzaw wrote: Risen stop fooling around. Did you check me or not? You claimed cop with check on S&B on N1, and what check on N2? s0lstice was what was implied. | ||
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With Risen alive, none of his information amounts to a hill of beans, because we can't trust it. The timing is odd. the investigations were odd, and there's no scum result to test with. Plus, since Milton claimed he was RB'd, then I feel like Risen would be RB'd every night and never killed even if he is cop, because the longer he lives, the most suspicious he seems. However, if we lynch him and confirm cop, then s0lstice and s&b are 100% clear for the rest of the game, along with the Mason, and we're at 6v2 with 3 confirmed going into the night. If he fake claimed, then we're down to 7v1 with 1 confirmed. Therefore, I think the best thing we can do today to get a town win is probably a Risen lynch. Anyone else have any thoughts? | ||
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On July 18 2012 13:27 Risen wrote: Why are you neglecting the possibility of strongandbig/s0Lstice being the mason. I'd like to think that the mason isn't one of those two so we have 4 confirmed townies but I now believe one of those two is the mason b/c I haven't seen a mason claim yet. This means only 3 confirmed townies which is still good, but I can wish it was 4. I'm not negating the possibility, but 1) s0lstice was here so I'm not sure why he wouldn't have claimed already, and 2) I feel pretty certain that the Mason is sciberbia because of how hard he defended austin when austin started getting pressured d1. | ||
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On July 18 2012 13:48 Risen wrote: Also waiting for anyone to respond to my thinking on milton. That being roleblocked claim makes no sense... Do VTs get a message saying they were roleblocked? I've never been RB'd as a VT, so I wouldn't know, but I don't see a reason why they would since they don't have a role. | ||
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On July 18 2012 13:52 Risen wrote: From the OP "All roleblocks will result in the target being notified." Ah, that's weird. Although I guess it makes some sense, its just not a rule I've ever played with that I can remember. I specifically asked if anyone was RB'd n1 though, and no one said they were, so :o | ||
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The longer you stay alive, the more worthless your investigations are. Good god, lynch me if you have to. Then lynch Risen tomorrow, because theres no way the mafia will kill him, then we can at least have 1 confirmed townie left in the LYLO day. | ||
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There are 2 options: 1) Risen is actually cop. How do we confirm that he's cop, when he doesn't have a scum read? If he had a scum read, we could lynch the read because we still have 2 mislynches to play with to test his claim. The only way to confirm his claim, and therefore investigations, is if he dies. But what motivation does mafia have to kill him, especially if they have a roleblocker (which we don't know, but Milton claimed, which I admit is suspicious). 2) Risen is fake claiming. How do we confirm? When he dies, which obviously won't happen at night. Even if we lynch gonzaw and he flips scum (which seems likely considering his outburst after the cop claim), that doesn't PROVE that Risen is cop, since Risen doesn't have a scum investigation on him. A fake claim into bussing a teamate isn't completely out of the realm of possibility. Literally the only way for your investigations to mean *ANYTHING* is if you die, which makes me question why you even decided to claim in the first place. | ||
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I think ideally, I would like every single person to tell me that they weren't RB'd n1. If everyone says they weren't RB'd n1, then Milton getting RB'd is extremely, extremely suspicious and basically just told us he was scum. I feel like maybe someone was RB'd though and just didn't know if they should claim it or not. | ||
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On July 18 2012 14:55 Risen wrote: Who would think that? Why would someone be silent on that? That makes no sense... I dunno. In my last newbie game, I got RB'd as cop on night 3 (which was when I replaced in), but no one else had claimed being RB'd the entire game when I did. Which was why I asked the question about VT's getting RB messages. | ||
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On July 18 2012 15:43 Risen wrote: You have a hard time believing that and yet you're completely ok with a scum risen claiming cop with two town reads. That makes sense... oh wait no it doesn't #keirathiisscum Err, what? I never said that you claiming cop as scum would be a good idea. But at least I can make a case as to why a scum would fake claim cop in a non-MYLO/LYLO situation. I can't think of any case where it benefits scum to claim they were RB'd on n2 when no one claimed they were n1. | ||
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On July 18 2012 16:02 strongandbig wrote: scum can't leave a town cop alive, he might check them What about if the mafia has a roleblocker? They've effectively turned him into a VT for the rest of the game, and the longer he lives the more suspicious his claim is. I can think of another case where they would leave him alive, but there are probably too many nights left for that to be viable. | ||
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I got wrapped up in Newbie XVIII arguing all day over a similar situation, and it ended up costing us the game. Even though I don't necessarily think my idea is as bad as some people seem to think, I agree that lynching scum is better than lynching a cop to confirm his claim, so lets do that. | ||
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On July 18 2012 16:46 Risen wrote: It's hilarious how scummy keirathi's posting is. (i guess I'm the only one seeing it though since you have to take my being a cop as true to see it that way) And maybe strongandbig sees it. Then fucking lynch me today so you can get past your tunnel vision that you had with Vivax and maybe make an actual good read. I'm serious, as much as I don't want us to lynch a townie today, I would rather Risen not be biased and tunneling me and not trying to find the real scum. ##Vote: Keirathi | ||
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On July 18 2012 19:33 sciberbia wrote: @Keirathi What is with this attitude? If you are town, please play to win. You're saying that we should kill you so that we realize you are town and can turn our attention to finding the real scum? Gimme a break. I don't think I have to explain to you why this is anti-town logic. This is making me slightly more suspicious of you. Please play to win. Also, I am a bit surprised by the overwhelming anti-gonzaw sentiment. Did you guys think Risen had a guilty on gonzaw? As far as I know, only Mattchew and I expressed any serious suspicion of gonzaw prior to the daypost. Despite the rather odd bandwaggon on gonzaw, all signs seem to be pointing towards gonzaw being scum. I still want to reread more of D2, but gonzaw's D2 behavior seems suspicious. I'll make a post about him before I leave for work. Arguing with him left me exasperated and extremely frustrated. If he is really cop, which I still have some difficulty believing, then at least if I die today he won't waste his night check on me and might actually find a scum instead of confirming another townie. Or if he gets NK'd then we have 3 confirmed townies in the 5v2 day, which is a 50/50 chance of hitting scum. My vote was entirely because I thought Risen had a scum check. I dunno if his goal was to mislead, but thats what I took from his post when I first realized he was cop. Then I thought through it more and realized we had only had 2 nights, so him saying gonzaw was "pretty much confirmed scum in my eyes" was just trying to pull the wool over people's eyes. @s0lstice: yea I had been thinking about the possibility of there being JK+masons+cop. I dunno how likely it is, but I haven't seen a mini with 3 blues yet in the few I've read through. | ||
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gonzaw wrote: Hmm, the ONLY way I could see scum Risen fake-claiming like that, is if solstice is his scumbuddy. That's not even the scariest situation in which Risen fake claim makes sense imo. The scariest situation is more like Risen+Mattchew being scumteam. Mattchew comes out today make a case against you, and Risen claims cop with some more doubt on you (his "scummy as fuck" comment, even if he later retracted it. Lets say this is enough to get you killed, and that you are town. Then they kill off either S&B or s0lstice. Risen then makes a case against me (don't forget, he said "If you're [gonzaw] scum Mattchew is in a rough spot, if you're town scib/Keir are pretty much dead men" earlier) and its enough to get me lynched. I flip town as well, then the other of S&B/s0lstice are NK'd. Now we're down to 5 people alive, with 2 scum and 1 confirmed townie (the mason who hadn't claimed yet). Mattchew throws Risen under the bus, and gets Risen lynched flipping scum. Kills the mason. Now we're down to 3 people (Mattchew, and 2 out of Milton/DropBear/sciberbia). I'm not sure Mattchew is likely to be lynched in that situation. Okay, so that's my worst case "OMG WIFOM" situation. I know it's WIFOM. I'm just saying that it is a possibility, and one that I am scared of. | ||
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On July 19 2012 06:19 Risen wrote: I just think if Keir is scum you're the only logical partner.maybe gonzaw but I like him :/ Keri is trading himself 1 for 1 here btw guys. If you lynch gonzaw tonight we're still ok, but I really think Keri is scummy as hell. Look at him harping on my "misleading" people. How the hell? I never claimed a check on gonzaw, my posting clearly shows my check was on s0L. He's muddying up the waters to try and trade 1 for 1 since that's about as good as it gets for him now. Trading 1 for 1 with you make NO SENSE WHATSOEVER. If I'm scum, and you're cop, then I leave my 1 teamate against 3 confirmed townies. | ||
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On July 19 2012 03:26 strongandbig wrote: okay so wait a minute actually risen when you said + Show Spoiler [this] + On July 18 2012 07:24 Risen wrote: Town in my eyes me strongandbig s0Lstice dude whatever it's summer miltonkram dropbear keirathi sciberbia mattchew (completely dependent on gonzaw flip or mason claim) scummy as fuck gonzaw (I'm going to hold that the misspelling of milton's name was a scumslip, also see other cases posted) ##vote gonzaw List order is from town in my eyes to scum in my eyes. If gonzaw flips scum Mattchew becomes scummier in my eyes (unless he's the mason partner in which case confirmed town). I don't think milton is scummy b/c why would his teammates misspell his name. Dropbear and tali beign scum would mean double scum up for lynch d1 and I don't see that as likely. Scib and Keir could be swapped, I can't tell whether my dislike of Keir is b/c he doesn't like me or b/c I genuinely find him scummy. I would really like to claim so if the mason could claim right now I'd be pretty pleased. There's a good chance that with mason claim we might just be winning (regardless of gonzaw alignment) @Risen any response to this? | ||
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On July 19 2012 06:46 Risen wrote: Thinking about this and Matt/gonzaw are the two lynch candidates tomorrow if you lynch me here and then shoot away from those two. Gonzaw will probably then get lynched and then what? Then there are 5 people left, with 2 confirmed townies (okay, only 1 if the other mason is either s0l or S&B), and 2 scum. That sounds like pretty good odds for town to me with a guaranteed townie on the last day. | ||
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On July 19 2012 06:50 Keirathi wrote: Then there are 5 people left, with 2 confirmed townies (okay, only 1 if the other mason is either s0l or S&B), and 2 scum. That sounds like pretty good odds for town to me with a guaranteed townie on the last day. Err disregard that, I forgot one of the nightkills. | ||
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On July 19 2012 07:05 DropBear wrote: Or bugs trolled us all and there is no second mason. Yea, like s0lstice said, austin said "gl to town + my mason buddy" when he died. He could be trolling too but I doubt it :p | ||
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On July 19 2012 08:07 Miltonkram wrote: I need to backtrack a bit. I find Keirathi's "giving up" post extremely scummy. If he were town I think he would continue to try and push a Risen lynch for the reasons he has claimed, to either hit scum or get close-to-confirmed town players. Keirathi giving up does nothing to help town or help us figure out whether Risen is truly a cop or not. Because of this, the only motivation I can see for Keirathi "giving up" is as a gambit to get town players to view him as town. Furthermore the timing is off. Keirathi gives up when there is still plenty of time to pursue cases. I've seen plenty of town players give up close to the deadline, but never 24 hours before it. This makes me think Keirathi's frustration is a ploy. Where did his suspicion of Risen's cop claim go? He states "I would rather Risen not be biased and tunneling me and not trying to find the real scum." It seems like he's treating Risen as if he knows Risen is town. If Keirathi is town, he would pursue a case against Risen harder and search for reasons to distrust Risen's cop-claim. I don't think he's come up with any decent reasons not to trust the claim. I'm not done reading Keirathi's filter, but this screams scum to me. ##Vote: Keirathi Read my next post. I'm still willing to die. And I wouldn't really say I'm giving up, I'm giving Risen a chance to be useful if he is actually the cop. Its a terrible play from a townie perspective, and I feel bad for saying it, but if I do die, then when I lay out my cases and flip town, you can look back and read them without the bias of thinking that I'm scum. | ||
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Why does town Risen claim in the first place? I can make a case for scum Risen, but I still can't think of solid motivation for cop Risen to claim. But why would scum Risen want to 1-for-1 trade? | ||
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On July 19 2012 07:26 DropBear wrote: Ok one last post before bed. I did read his filter. Breadcrumb is here. BEFORE talismania's flip. At this point Risen has had only ONE check, which came back as townie. At this point any possible mafia role is in play, including framer. For the life of me I can't see any reason why you would be so obvious at this point. This is also before austin's flip confirming the existence of a mason/masons. Not only this he is under significant suspicion at this point. You yourself were pushing him quite hard. There is no reason why mafia would shoot him before his breadcrumb/claim that I can think of. I don't get the claim at all. Quoting this because it was never answered. | ||
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If gonzaw flipped scum, I wouldn't necessarily say that "OMG MATTCHEW IS SCUM", but I wouldn't discount the possibility either. I feel like he just leeched off of your cases both of the last 2 days with rather weak arguments compared to yours. I'm not sure why he would double-bus, though, nor do I understand why Risen believes that. Basically what I'm saying is that even if gonzaw flips scum, I wouldn't look into Mattchew too much until it was LYLO. Then I would think carefully about the possibility of a double bus, especially if it was the day with 3 people left. | ||
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On July 19 2012 09:57 Risen wrote: I'll lynch gonzaw if you promise me to lynch keir if he flips town and matt if he's red. (I'm dying tonight, no questions asked. Scum absolutely can't afford me living) Matt you should be ok with this since it's 1 for 1 and you get all tomorrow to make a case on who to lynch after you're dead. As it stands, though, my vote is staying on keir because he's in the lead to get lynched and he's my read. If it comes down to one vote I'll vote gonzaw, not otherwise. If I'm alive tomorrow I'll report the results of my check and then we go from there (likely a risen lynch but then we have another confirmed terran or red check) Why can't I be scum with gonzaw? If you really think I'm scum, then I'm not sure why the gonzaw flip would matter. I've neither pressured gonzaw nor defended him to any extent. | ||
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You've given scum ammunition. You've laid out your plans for what you want to do. What if the mafia has a framer? You just told them who you were going to check. What if mafia has a roleblocker? They have no reason to ever kill you if they can just relegate you to "extremely suspicious VT" for the rest of the game until you die. If they can keep you alive until the LYLO day, then they've basically won anyways. | ||
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What will you do moving forward if I am lynched today and I don't flip scum? I'm not even asking you to believe that I'm not scum, just from a purely hypothetical context, I would like you to explain what your next course of action would be. You were so convinced Day 1 that Vivax was scum, and you were wrong and then disappeared and "grieved" over how wrong you were. Will it be the same? | ||
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On July 19 2012 12:28 gonzaw wrote: Framers only frame townies to get a red check (never heard of framers being able to frame their own buddies to get them to check "town"...that's what Godfathers do). That was my assumption of what framers do as well. That being said, the only experience I've ever had with Framer's was in sc2 mafia, which has its own list of weird rules, but in that you can only frame townies to appear red, not friendlies to appear green. | ||
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On July 19 2012 12:49 Risen wrote: Lol did anyone bother reading the OP? First, gonzaw plays dumb with my cop reveal, now he's playing dumb with the miller thing. So scummy wtf... Miller thing? I ctrl+f'd miller on this page and the only result was your post just now mentioning it? | ||
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I certainly hope when the game ends that he has a good explanation, but right now its just frustrating. Even just 1 confirmed townie makes a huge difference in the way this day plays out. | ||
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On July 19 2012 14:38 Risen wrote: Also, it happened. Lost my cool. Mission failed. A valiant effort. | ||
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On July 19 2012 15:05 Miltonkram wrote: @ gonzaw I didn't realize my vote was still on Keirathi. Thanks for clearing that up. ##UnVote: Keirathi ##Vote: gonzaw Regarding your question, in Keirathi and I's previous game together, Newbie Mini XIX, he put in a ton of effort. He had this "never-say-die" attitude that caused him to be incredibly active. Keirathi giving up doesn't fit in with the picture I have of him from that game. There are two reasons for a player to give up, they are frustrated or they're giving up as a scum ploy. I originally thought Keirathi giving up was extremely scummy, but thinking over the situation and rereading his responses gives me the impression that he's actually frustrated. I find Mattchew's case against you more convincing anyways. Newbie XIX was much, MUCH less frustrating than dealing with Risen  At least there I was fairly sure I was right. Hell, I'm not even sure that Risen is fakeclaiming, but all the arguing is clouding my judgement on OTHER PEOPLE besides just him. Its frustrating thinking about two townies arguing with each other so hard while the two scum that are left are just laughing their way to the bank. I really didn't see any other way out of the situation than for one (or both) of us to die. | ||
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On July 19 2012 15:17 gonzaw wrote: -He was the 7th vote on talis, meaning he basically prevented a NL to save talis (albeit he HAD to vote or be modkilled) 7th vote is just insurance. With 11 people alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Being 7th is actually a null point to me, or maybe SLIGHTLY on the scummy side of the line. Not enough to be damning anyways. On July 19 2012 15:17 gonzaw wrote: -This cop claim doesn't make much sense if he's scum since it's not an "obvious" attempt to disrupt or confuse town, it actually gives us lots of info (about S&B and solstice for instance). I don't really understand this point. There are definitely situations in which Risen flipping scum causes confusion depending on how long he actually lives. On July 19 2012 15:17 gonzaw wrote: His gambit of attacking me and then dropping it doesn't seem too suspicious I think. Basically because I don't think he'd do it as scum, he'd be VERY happy with me getting lynched, so I doubt he'd try a gambit that avoids that when other people were intent on lynching me. I half-agree. It really does seem pretty far-fetched to think he would do that as scum, but he already gave himself an out (paraphrasing "if gonzaw flips red, Matt is scum, if he flips green, keir is scum"). So if we read that sentence with the assumptions that 1) Risen is scum, 2) you are town, 3) I am town, I think you can see how it could potentially play out in scums favor with Risen trading 2 for 1 and his scumbuddy bussing him on the Day-of-5. (Yes, I know that is purely speculation. I'm not saying that I necessarily think that I am right, but I haven't discounted the possibilty yet, and it IS a possibility). On July 19 2012 15:17 gonzaw wrote: His attack on Keirathi isn't that good...but well his attack on Vivax wasn't either, and him not playing that great doesn't equal him being scum. I agree. I think there are things that warranted him attacking me, and I'm trying my best not to just OMGUS. I think there are some holes in his logic, but I'm not sure if that makes him scum or just playing badly because he's frustrated too. On July 19 2012 15:17 gonzaw wrote: Now let's analyse this logically: 1)Risen claimed cop with a green check on S&B and solstice 2)The Godfather is dead 3)There is only 1 Godfather at most 4)Because of (2) and (3), there is no GF alive this game 5)One can only distrust green checks when a GF is alive 6)Because of (4) and (5) one can trust any green check this game 7)Because of (1) and (6), if Risen is town, then we can trust his green check 8)Because of (7), if Risen is town, S&B and solstice are town. 8.a)If Risen is town, then S&B is town 8.b)If Risen is town, then sosltice is town I think Risen is town, therefore I think S&B is town and solstice is town. Thats an awful lot of steps to state something that was pretty obvious already :o | ||
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On July 19 2012 15:45 Risen wrote: Framers don't make scum look town. That was my assumption coming into the game too, because thats how framers have worked in previous mafia games I have played. But some people seem to think differently, so mod confirmation would be great. | ||
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Its 2 am, so I'm going to get some sleep. Maybe I can divine some new perspective or something. | ||
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On July 20 2012 01:16 DropBear wrote: Ok I'm moving on from Risen, I want to lynch Keirathi. There are five main points against him for mine. 1. Firstly, he backs up and sheeps tali's case against me on day 2. Not really anything to say about this. Yes, I did. On July 20 2012 01:16 DropBear wrote: 2. His avoidance of voting for tali day 2. He clearly doesn't want to vote for tali, but doesn't give any other options. Not only this he puts in a martyr at the end. I didn't give any other options? I posted my thoughts on sciberbia BEFORE i made that post. On July 20 2012 01:16 DropBear wrote: 3. So who does he vote? Who does he vote? sciberbia, the first person to make a case against tali. I mentioned I was out of town. I get back to the thread with 7 votes on my teamate (if we're assuming that I'm scum here). Why wouldn't I just hop on the wagon? Why would I go after the person attacking him? I mean, there was no way scib was going to get lynched at that point. So what would be the benefit for me as scum to even make a case or vote him? On July 20 2012 01:16 DropBear wrote: 4. Next he jumps rapidly onto the gonzaw bandwagon. Sole reasoning here. Note that a lack of explanation behind a vote was a key reason he voted for me on day 1, this is a double standard. What can I say? I think hopping on someone for no reason is dumb. I obviously thought gonzaw was a red check from the cop. He keeps saying that that was never his intent, but thats what I thought when I read his claim post. On July 20 2012 01:16 DropBear wrote: 5. Lastly his ragequit. If he was actually a townie, he's arguing for a deliberate mislynch here. He mentions the real scum a lot, but his lynch plan was the same as mine, lynch Risen to confirm two townies. No scumhunting there. Also, I have only seen a ragequit like this once before; ilovejonn in mafia 39 who was scum and was backed into a corner so this is what he did. ##Unvote ##Vote Keirathi [/quote] You are right, I was arguing for a deliberate mislynch. Because I didn't (and maybe now still) believe that the whole Risen vs me situation isn't going to resolve until one of us dies. And, despite Risen constantly saying otherwise, I think the mafia will do whatever they can to keep him alive for absolutely as long as possible. | ||
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I assume you mean "And, despite Risen constantly saying otherwise, I think the mafia will do whatever they can to keep him alive for absolutely as long as possible." They could have a framer too. You've already made abundantly clear who you plan to investigate if I get lynched today. Also, if gonzaw is town, they could just leave you alive anyways, but that would leave 2 confirmed townies in the day of 5 so I doubt that. | ||
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On July 20 2012 02:35 Risen wrote: Lol wtf is this? If you're town you're doing a horrible job defending yourself. If they have rb I claim rb'd and get lynched tomorrow to confirm. If they have framer he better do a good job of guessing bc a smart cop will place his investigations where they aren't expected when there's a possible framer. Night one I almost literally threw a dart at a board of people to determine my check. If there is a framer and they want to let me live he and I will be doing the dance of wifom. On July 19 2012 10:28 Risen wrote: I'll check gonzaw tonight and if I'm alive move on from there. Scum check = push him, get myself lynched, then pray for gon/matt lynch. If town check I freak out, break down into gibberish and eat my hat. | ||
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On July 20 2012 02:47 Mattchew wrote: S&b and risen you should be on Gonzaw... And risen keirathi was unlikely to be jailed so If he's telling the truth about being rb'd it's logical to think it was a scum rb Err what? I never claimed that I was rb'd? :o | ||
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On July 20 2012 03:20 Mattchew wrote: Answer the question... Do you think at any point this game Milton or kerathi would be jailed? Cause if not the point of my post is the same.. If you believe miltons claim then you logically believe it was a scum rb gonzaw wrote: If there is a medic/JK be on austin/sciberbia at all costs. Wifom about which one of them you protect. I wouldn't mind anybody else dying and flipping town to be honest (maybe you could WIFOM and protect Keriathi or Milton as well). Its kind of a suspicious point to me, with Milton claiming he was RB'd not long after that post. Like maybe they were orchestrating a jailer? | ||
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On July 20 2012 03:30 s0Lstice wrote: Did nobody else consider the fact that Marv could have been RB'ed + NK'd on night 1? happens all the time If he was RB'd by jailer, then he wouldnt have died. I don't see any reason for scum RB to RB him if they were killing him too, unless they were just trying to hide the RB for night 1. | ||
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On July 20 2012 04:10 Risen wrote: I live tonight and get lynched tomorrow. That's the part I'm worried about. No matter how much I've argued with you, I'm still not convinced that you are lying, I just don't understand WHY THE HELL YOU CLAIMED IN THE FIRST PLACE. Seriously, whatever justification you've given, its all dumb. So lynching you tomorrow, especially if don't get scum today, is a terrible consequence of you just making a bad play. | ||
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WBG: can we get an updated vote count? And clarification on the Framer role (Can he make teammates return green to cop checks, or only make townies return red? And if he can make teammates return green, can he target himself?), please. | ||
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1) Mattchew: His case against talis was weak. Scib's case was much stronger, but Matt tried to take credit for the lynch. I have no trouble believe Matt could/would bus his teamate on day2, especially just a few hours after a townie came out and made a big case. It's also a bit worrisome (and WIFOM) that towards the end of the day, sciberbia mentioned that he was going to be pushing gonzaw today, and then again not longer after sciberbia laid out his case, Matt follows in with a case again. 2) Gonzaw: I was willing to vote him at the start of the day because I legitimately read Risen's cop claim post as "I have a red check on gonzaw" (I assume s0l did too, since he hopped on the wagon too). His early posting after the claim was pretty ridiculous and I find it hard to believe that town gonzaw didn't realize Risen was claiming cop, but his posting later in the day really feels like desperation. Not that mafia don't get desperate when they are close to being voted, but I dunno. I can't shake the feeling that the talis connections are being blown out of proportion and that gonzaw is fighting so hard to save himself because he is town. 3) Risen: I think I've made it perfectly clear that I think there was no reason whatsoever for a real cop to claim. You had virtually no chance of getting shot that night if you hadn't said #whatacopout, so for someone "trying hard not to get shot", that seems like something suspiciously bad to be saying. But for all that, I'm just not sure a scum would play that stupid. Maybe they have some master plan such as this, but it seems like such a huge risk. I also don't like how he gave himself outs ("if gonzaw flips red, Matt is scum, if he flips green, keir/scib are scum"). Anyways I've pointed out my problems with him for most of my filter for today, which is significantly long. 4) Milton: Holy shit this post looks bad. As much as the cases against gonzaw look scummy, theres no way I would say he's spewing shit and half-baked opinions all over the thread. The roleblock claim is weird, but I can't necessarily think it is scummy if there's the possibility that marv was RB'd and shot night 1. scib/s0lstice/s&b/drop are all conditionally townie to me atm. | ||
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Agree 100%. | ||
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I won't let a NL happen though if it can be helped at all. | ||
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On July 20 2012 06:14 gonzaw wrote: When is the deadline? 5pm CST, aka 43 minutes. | ||
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On July 20 2012 04:43 Keirathi wrote: EBWOP: Formatting. WBG: can we get an updated vote count? And clarification on the Framer role (Can he make teammates return green to cop checks, or only make townies return red? And if he can make teammates return green, can he target himself?), please. | ||
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On July 17 2012 04:51 Keirathi wrote: 1) "Gonzaw's parrot" - + Show Spoiler + gonzaw Townie Reads: Vivax, solstice, scib, tali, me; Risen, me; austin, Scum Reads: Risen, S&B, matt; austin, S&B, me, drop, risen; S&B, tali, austin; Tali, Drop, solstice, matt, risen, me; Null Reads: marv, austin, Risen;; Arguments against: Drop, Risen, Milton, matt; matt, Risen; Matt, Risen, votes: Drop, me, vivax;;tali (Note: the ;'s indicate changing from day to night and vice versa) That's just a quick list and I probably missed some. You could claim that literally anyone was gonzaw's parrot and you'd be mostly correct. As far as I can tell, tali has only really made pushes for Drop and austin, so its a pretty weak argument imo. @Milton: this is a snippet from my post about sciberbia day2. Check the spoiler. Yes I have tried to keep up with him. | ||
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Unvote Vote: Mattchew | ||
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On July 20 2012 06:37 Keirathi wrote: As much as I'm unsure about today, I feel a little stronger about Mattchew than gonzaw. Unvote Vote: Mattchew ##Unvote ##Vote: Mattchew Fix'd | ||
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On July 20 2012 06:41 gonzaw wrote: Okay, EVERYBODY post your reasoning for voting Mattchew today: Milton, Keirathi, I didn't really see you wanting to vote Mattchew today, why the insta vote switch? Milton already posted a little bit, but could you post further reasons? I already posted why. Keirathi wrote: 1) Mattchew: His case against talis was weak. Scib's case was much stronger, but Matt tried to take credit for the lynch. I have no trouble believe Matt could/would bus his teamate on day2, especially just a few hours after a townie came out and made a big case. It's also a bit worrisome (and WIFOM) that towards the end of the day, sciberbia mentioned that he was going to be pushing gonzaw today, and then again not longer after sciberbia laid out his case, Matt follows in with a case again. I also gave some thoughts about you in the same post. I'm guessing you just missed it. But today is almost certainly going to come down to you vs Matt, and I feel stronger about Matt than I do you. | ||
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On July 20 2012 06:55 sciberbia wrote: @keirathi, @miltonkram, @risen Are you sure you guys aren't just being influenced by gonzaw's loud defense and you just feel less guilty about mislynching mattchew? Are you sure mattchew is actually more likely to be scum? I haven't really found gonzaw scummy all game until today, and most of that was because of his early play after Risen claimed cop. I did, however, think Mattchew was scummy yesterday, and nothing he did today made him look more townie. I still think you are tied in with him too hard because he's been buddying you and copied your reads. | ||
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How? | ||
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I'm wary as fuck of sciberbia right now. | ||
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On July 20 2012 07:07 Risen wrote: Yes, yes, I threw my partner under the bus at the last second even though I could have no lynched. URIGHT Is that so impossible to do? Buy yourself some town cred, and all. However, there's no way in hell you get lynched tomorrow, and probably not the day after. If you live that long, you are a person to be looked at again. | ||
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On July 20 2012 07:08 gonzaw wrote: Hye S&B! Do you plan on backing up this statement now? I'd like you to convince me there is a Framer that can get a buddy of his to turn green to a check, if you know what I mean  I'm not really sure where you're going with this? WBG came into the thread and said framers can do both, but can't self-target. If Risen is cop, then S&B and s0lstice are 100% clean. | ||
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S&B && S0lstice 100% confirmed town, UNLESS Risen is a townie fake claiming cop. | ||
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On July 20 2012 07:14 gonzaw wrote: Can Framers frame a scumbuddy so cop checks on him come back green? I'd like wbg to answer this question now (if he can) since it can confirm 2 townies to us 100% (solstice+S&B) He already did. On July 20 2012 06:35 NoSmurfHere wrote: Framer can do both. He cannot target himself. | ||
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On July 20 2012 07:16 gonzaw wrote: Oh nevermind, I guess we can't have confirmed townies then ...UNLESS THE FUCKING MASON CLAIMED!!!! ARGHGHGHHGG What. Yes we can. Matt was a GOON. That means if the last scum is a framer, they couldnt target themselves. So there are 2 options: 1) Risen is a cop, and both of his checks are legit. 2) Risen is the 3rd mafia. | ||
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I find this extremely unlikely at this point though. | ||
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On July 20 2012 07:25 gonzaw wrote: Ehmm.... WTF RISEN My sentiments exactly. If you fake claimed DT as vanilla, I want you to know that that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life, and I will avoid you like the plague for anymore TL Mafia games that I play. | ||
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On July 20 2012 07:45 Risen wrote: In my defense, I had been gone all day 2 and it was really the only way I wasn't getting lynched day 3 lol So you can get lynched day4 instead? If you don't die tonight, then I hope to god that town is smart enough to lynch liars. | ||
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Play of the year? Fuck no. We lynched Mattchew DESPITE you, not because of you. | ||
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On July 20 2012 09:01 Risen wrote: Lol I'm pretty sure I'm the one who made the crucial swap. On someone you didn't even think was scum. On July 20 2012 06:47 Risen wrote: I think matt is town. I'm playing to win, though, because by voting him town will come around to my way of thinking... Or something. Swapping to avoid a no-lynch doesn't win you any credit. | ||
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On July 21 2012 02:14 strongandbig wrote: braaagh the one day when i finally have some time to post from work and no one posts anything whatsoever T_T post more guyz!!!!! It's night and I needed a break to clear my mind of the clusterfuck we had yesterday. | ||
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On July 21 2012 05:35 gonzaw wrote: I know scum Risen can do crazy stuff...but that crazy stuff is generally used to confuse town even more, not to help town. I think town was pretty damn confused yesterday, and like I said, we lynched Mattchew despite Risen claiming cop, not because of it. | ||
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On July 21 2012 05:59 sciberbia wrote: @s0Lstice Do you think risen is more likely to be VT or cop right now? Since it is deadline, my antagonizing him all night was in the hope that he was actually cop and trying to get out of being NK'd by saying he was VT. I figured if I antagonized him enough, mafia would have less reason to kill him. But if they have a RB'er, then they had no reason to kill him anyways. Just a hopeful ploy! | ||
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On July 21 2012 06:07 NoSmurfHere wrote: Endgame in 54 minutes, stay tuned Err. Unexpected? | ||
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On July 21 2012 06:08 sciberbia wrote: well if risen isn't cop then who the fuck are our blues. seriously lol This. So much this. | ||
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On July 21 2012 06:09 sciberbia wrote: I wasn't RB'd yesterday so I'm pretty sure no JK Milton claimed RB yesterday. It's possible JK (especialyl if JK is gonzaw) could have protected him. | ||
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I was so fucking suspicious of you until I realized you were Mason, even though you said you weren't. | ||
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On July 21 2012 06:11 sciberbia wrote: 2 mason and that's it?? Seems like it'd call for only 2 scum in that case. Maybe that's what happened o.O If there was 2 scum, we wouldn't ahve had a night. | ||
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On July 21 2012 06:13 sciberbia wrote: lol I am seriously so much more pro-town then everyone else balance-wise i guess that's what happens when you're 0-4 as town (soon to be 1-4 :D) Yea, I kind of am the same way, but its more because of history. I have like ~1000 games played of IRC mafia, but at some point, we all got bored of just being VTs all the time. When games end fast, you need something to spice up the monotony of doing nothing for half of the game. So we came up with all kinds of setups with crazy roles, but most of them ended up being fairly town-favored | ||
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I made some pretty questionable plays. I still feel like I could possibly be lynched. | ||
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On July 21 2012 06:19 s0Lstice wrote: it could very well be a vig shot, we'll have to see. it would take some serious patience to hold that shot for two nights though You're right. If I was vig, I would have shot the fuck out of Mattchew on night 2. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
MiltonKram wrote: This sudden change of opinion feels rather forced. I feel like it's a bit of a show. This was regarding his change of heart at the end of day 1. He did the EXACT SAME THING at the end of day2. Why didn't you mention that? You can't leave out things to make it seem like a stronger case :o | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 21 2012 06:27 Risen wrote: Makes sense. Also, what could possibly posses anyone to say "maybe he's just trying to get the last scum to not kill him" DURING THE NIGHT. Wtf... Don't give scum ideas like that even though I was probably getting shot regardless One of the few things you have said that I actually agree with! | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 21 2012 06:31 Miltonkram wrote: @ sciberbia Dude, no worries. We won! I'm freaking excited about that. My first win as a townie! + Show Spoiler + FUUUUUUUUCKCCKCKCKCKCKCK YEEAAAAAAHHHHHHHH Mine as well. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Vivax was so obviously playing his town meta, and Drop had literally 0 actual case in all the posts that he talked about Vivax. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 21 2012 06:40 Risen wrote: I find it disheartening that i lynched viv without looking at his meta and Matt by only looking at his meta lol You refused to listen to anyone telling you he was playing his meta. He's acted crazy in both games I've played with him, and its gotten him lynched both times. Although to be fair, at least he showed some restraint in this game. Last game when he started getting pressure, he fake-claimed cop as VT. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 21 2012 06:44 Miltonkram wrote: @ Risen I feel like a pretty decent tell against Mattchew was that he wasn't willing to comment often on player's outside of those he was tunneling. It's an extremely convenient way of playing as scum. That was a pretty major difference I noticed between this game and the LVI game that s0Lstice pointed out. Also it really bothered me how he copied scib's cases 2 days in a row. Day 2: scib comes out the gate making a big case on talis Couple hours later: Mattchew makes a case against talis Night 2: scib explains some suspicions on gonzaw (giving Matt more time to make a case, which was why his case against gonzaw had more substance than the one against talis [and the fact that he was bussing, I guess]) Day 3: scib makes a case on gonzaw Couple hours later: Matt makes a case against gonzaw. Combined with the buddying up with scib because of the cases, and trying to take credit. It was a fairly solid case against Matt, overall. I'm glad we made the right decision. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Can you please finally give a good answer for why you breadcrumbed and then claimed? I still think claiming was absolutely the worst thing you could have done because 2 green checks . Even if you had been killed and flipped cop without specifically saying "I have green checks on S&B and s0l", people would have picked up on it from your filter. Now that you are in the open, the information literally means NOTHING. Don't worry about being NK'd so much. As long as you've breadcrumbed your information a bit, then stay behind the scenes. I would have lynched you yesterday no questions asked, if other people had been willing to vote you, solely because the claim made no sense. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 21 2012 06:57 Risen wrote: It makes even less sense from a scum perspective imo b/c all it does is 1 for 1 trade at best. Anyways, I claimed b/c if I was town I would have lynched a Risen who was gone all day 2 unless he claimed something. Being a lurker is actually what I do as scum until later in the game. With something similar to your "If gonzaw flips red, matt is scum, he if he flips green keir/scib are scum", I think you could have gotten 2 for 1. I already posted why I thought that was dangerous for town, especially if your teamate was Mattchew. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
GG gents. Could very easily have been a flawless victory! | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 21 2012 07:21 gonzaw wrote: Hey! >: ( Apart from thinking Dropbear was likely town at one point, and being suspicious of solstice and Milton at another point, I don't see how "wrong" my reads were...? I don't necessarily think that your reads were wrong. You just made so many reads that you were bound to be right occasionally. I posted this before from my notes, but this was just up until the end of day 2: + Show Spoiler + gonzaw Townie Reads: Vivax, solstice, scib, tali, me; Risen, me; austin, Scum Reads: Risen, S&B, matt; austin, S&B, me, drop, risen; S&B, tali, austin; Tali, Drop, solstice, matt, risen, me; Null Reads: marv, austin, Risen;; Arguments against: Drop, Risen, Milton, matt; matt, Risen; Matt, Risen, votes: Drop, me, vivax;;tali You have scum reads in the first 2 days on 9 out of the 13 players. And town reads on over half of the people you had scum reads on. I generally didn't find any individual post of yours hard to keep up with, but overall, you were a trainwreck. You had so many opinions and they changed so wildly and rapidly, that it was easier to just devalue what you were saying most of the time. Not that I ignored it per se, because you did have some good points, but it was just too hard to know what your current opinion was most of the time. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 21 2012 07:26 Risen wrote: And yeah that included my shouting for nomination nonsense (I picked that up from Mattchew lol) Which I believe I called you out for | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
sciberbia wrote: Will anyone ever take the hint and fakeclaim... As a VT, getting yourself killed at night isn't such a bad thing I thought about it. Too much of a risk when I don't know who the real Mason is though. I felt like whoever was mason was waiting to claim in the hopes that someone would fake-claim and they could get them lynched. I was pretty sure you were Mason (hence why I said I was 95% sure you were, and then accidentally said your name in the heat of the argument with Risen), but I didn't know what your feelings were towards me. If I fake-claimed, you probably would have outed me and wasted a mislynch. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 21 2012 07:54 Risen wrote: Whew rereading my filter I'm shocked I wasn't pushed by scum for misusing words. Bus alone wasn't going to get me lynched, but the claim and bus in combination would have gotten me lynched npnp had mattchew not tunneled gonzaw so hard. There were people (townies) in thread who really, REALLY wanted to lynch me (I don't blame them) and still matt stuck to gonzaw for reasons I'm unsure of. I really, REALLY wanted to lynch you, but I talked myself out of pushing it because I wasn't sure if it was just OMGUS, or if I actually thought all of your silly little slips/logic leaps added up to enough to make you scum, or just playing badly. Which is ironically the same thing that halted me voting talis on d2, and I was wrong about him :o | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
Risen made it clear when he voted for Matt that he thought Matt was town. And sciberbia had been saying all day that Matt was town. It's not like those people changed their minds at the last minute and suddenly thought Matt was town. The people not voting for Matt all had said repeatedly they thought Matt was town. Everyone on Matt except for Risen had reason to vote Matt over gonzaw, which was basically what the options came down to at the end of the day. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
I maybe would have switched to Milton, and I certainly would have switched to Risen, but I don't really see either of those gaining enough steam. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
The main problem with d3 was that me and risen spent too much time arguing with each other over something stupid. I dunno why I let myself get dragged into that kind of situation repeatedly, but I'll try to work on it. Had that not happened, I feel like I would have spent more time making my case against Matt instead of tunneling Risen so much. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + What about the fact that if chaoser is scum, he's trading 1-for-2 by claiming. That makes 0 sense. Town lynches vain and he flips town, then they lynch chaoser for lying, and then nard because foolishness said to. It seems much more likely, with the tracker check from WBG, that chaoser is actually town and happened to investigate the person who got framed. The timing of the claim likely loses town 2 players (vain, and chaoser) because of bad DT luck, and a bad claim. Edit: The alternative could be that he is bussing a teamate to get town cred for the rest of the game, but then he loses 2 teamates in vain and nard. | ||
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Keirathi
United States4679 Posts
On July 23 2012 07:13 HiroPro wrote: + Show Spoiler + Eh, I didn't look at the tracker thing. Could be a framer. Could be a medic too, I guess (a really weird medic protect though (judging from what wbg said about what previously happened)). Could also be mafia hitting a vet. Dunno, I can't really tell from the info that's there. But I doubt it's a bus (you've already bussed Mig, going after another one of your teammates when another likely teammate is also up for lynch? pointless) and I don't think chaoser is town. A lot of towns are really bad at lynching the other person in 1-1 cop scenario though (I've been in a situation myself where a confirmed cop had me as a red check and town still didn't lynch me because they feared framer/miller). Also, with 5 people mafia still has 3 KP. Losing another member right after is pretty bad (reduces KP to two) and not something they'd want to happen. chaoser would know these things and I think he'd be comfortable making a fake claim in this scenario. And it's not really a 1 for 2 trade. nard would definitely die without chaoser claiming. He shouldn't really be part of the ratio. Also, the foolishness check is a little weird. From the information that can be gathered, chaoser believes that Mig is scum, so his sanity from his standpoint could possibly be normal or paranoid. But making a check on Foolishness just to eliminate that possibility (paranoid) is just really strange. Bit convenient to have your checks be dead too. Ultimately though, chaoser is a good player and it's really doubtful that a good player would claim cop like that if he really was town. The timing makes pretty much no sense from a town standpoint but it does help several mafia objectives (the most important being trying to shift the lynch off a very likely mafia). + Show Spoiler + Hmm, I've never played a game with more than 1 mafia KP, so I didn't really think about that. Thinking about that, the fake claim makes much more sense. Delaying scum dying by 1 extra day is basically a free kill. I'm still not sure about the tracker though. There's so many possibilities though that depend on knowing more about the game, although I agree that doc is unlikely. Edit: In fact, looking at it from that angle, then the fake claim at worst case scenario gets them to MYLO with the possibility of very little scumhunting happening in the mean time. 13v5, and get the mislynch with the fake claim. 12v5. 3 KP, so 9v5 on the next day. If town follows up on the chaoser claim (again, worst case), then its 9v4. 2 KP puts it at 7v4. Then, assuming town follows up on nard, its 7v3. 2kp puts it at 5v3, aka MYLO. | ||
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