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Gonzaw:
Speaking as someone who has played with you and watched you play I'd like to throw in my opinion here. You need to use the huge amount of effort you have to do something more productive for town you add so much to the game that, at times, it is unreadable.
You need to post less not more.
I would love to watch you in a game where you gave yourself a posting limitation of some kind and forced yourself to make concise reads. You essentially post your thought process and notes in the thread I think that instead you should write all that up, put it in word and give town the outlines of your thoughts on some people if you could consolidate those thoughts into a single post and, when you had new thoughts make another complete post with all of your thoughts that would be more beneficial to town.
You post so much that every good read you have is brought down by the sheer weight of your posting sometimes it is easiest to just ignore you, even when you are right, remember: not everyone shares your incredible amount of both time and dedication and when a thread is thirty pages longer at night than it was in the morning something needs to be skipped over.
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It's 5 am, I've been coding all day. Don't really feel sleepy...
So fuck yeah, let's get this started.
This is just gonna be overall stuff. I need to reread things because when I was observing I was only skimming. Since I've had a pretty demanding class over the past few weeks, and I was committed to playing another game, I didn't take notes this time around. I still remember most of the major events, though. This specific stuff will come later today.
For now I want to do something a bit more unorthodox. I'm going to summarize things that I think people should try to observe when analyzing why things turned out the way that they did. In addition I'm going to give my opinions on claims and analyzing them. In my experience in encountering claims, for the most part with the number of real/fake claims I've seen I think I've come to a point where I can identify the alignment of the claimer in most situations (anyone whose name is not VE). Reexamining some old claims is a good way to learn, in my opinion. So, I'll do a bit of an exercise segment after the summary.
General Town Stuff
I feel like a broken record sometimes when I talk about this stuff, because it's plainly obvious what befalls town in almost every game. This game turned out for a town victory primarily because of three very important things:
1. A strong d1 and d2 (despite the mislynch on d1) and a bit of luck when it came to that second scum lynch.
2. Decent use of confirming mechanics by town (and failure to punish town on the part of mafia) and strong establishment of townies in the absence of confirming mechanics (both in quantity of active townies and the quality of their play)
3. Something that has nothing to do with town play: scum complacence or basically lack of scum involvement.
Generally, from what I've observed, if you have 2/3 of these things the game ends up as a coinflip. If you have 1/3 of them it's almost always a guaranteed loss. In this game you had all 3: a strong d1 means there are a fair amount of townies who will almost never be in danger of being lynched, and some who have good reads/are listened to.
+ Show Spoiler +Compare this to LV, for example: weak d1, weak d2. No real confirming mechanics, but even so there were very few players who established themselves strongly as town, and kinda meh on scum complacence: half of them were fairly firmly established and the other half blended in well. Pretty strong town loss.
Another comparison can be drawn to Normal Mini II. Weak d1. Weak d2. Some established town, no confirming mechanics (due to the setup). Meh on scum influence. I'd rate it 1/3 of the points, and it was a flawless scum victory.
On the flipside you have C9++ Mini: strong town d1 and d2. Strong use of confirming mechanics (mason role) AND very active and well-played town. Finally, to top it off, all the scum were clueless. 3 for 3 and blowout win for town.
And again for a town-favored side you have PYP:Interesting. Strong d0, d1. Strong use of confirming mechanics (all roles used exceptionally by townies) and very active and strong town. Very complacent scum. 3 for 3 and another blowout town win.
Austin and marvellosity in particular played well on d1. Austin had several spot-on reads, at one point listing all 3 scum in order. Marvellosity established himself as town rapidly and scared scum enough for him to get shot n1. If you get shot n1 and you didn't have completely retarded reads, you're generally in a great spot as a townie. That should realistically be your goal, since if you're shot n1 then clearly mafia thinks you are a threat.
Obviously, you should absolutely strive to stay away from the two opposites. You definitely don't want to be a player with all the wrong reads or the guy everyone hates, so much so that you get lynched d1. If you don't establish yourself as town d1 then you've failed. At some level so has the town who has mislynched you, but there comes a point where you can't fault several people for all thinking alike, especially if you have been incorrectly suspected in the past. Clearly there was something that caused them to attack you, and that something needs to be changed.
Almost every game in which town has lynched scum on d1 has resulted in a town victory. People who say "but it's d1, my reads are bound to be shit" are giving up the game. If you say this, or have ever said it, don't ever do it again. I saw a bit of that in this game but I got more of the feeling that people were resigned to a mislynch rather than the outright sentiment that their reads didn't matter because it was d1.
There is an overwhelming pattern among people who outwardly communicate that they think d1 will always be a wash. The pattern is that these players are consistently wrong no matter what stage in the game it is. They don't get better until they realize that day 1 is almost exactly the same as every other day.
I'm not generally fond of the slippery slope argument, but it kinda fits here. If you don't care about d1, who's to say your reads will be any better d2?
On Roleclaiming and reacting to a roleclaim:
If you're going to roleclaim as town, make sure it has a purpose and make sure you are clear about it. Make sure it is the right time to claim before doing so. Make sure you have thought of all eventualities before claiming so that when you are asked about possibilities you can inform the rest of the players without looking like you got caught with your pants down (this can make you look like a fakeclaimer)
Let's say you're a DT, and you have two green checks. It's night 3 and no scum have been lynched. Both of your checks are still alive and it's currently 5v3.
A.Do you claim or no?
B.If yes, when? If no, why not?
+ Show Spoiler [answers] +
If I were the DT, I would most certainly claim. As for when, I'd claim right before the deadline. In this game it would be any time during the night action resolution.
This seems fairly obvious but people claim during the day way too often. If you're going to claim during the day then you spoiled a good opportunity to claim at deadline the previous night and then in case you lived squeak out that extra check during the day. Often times when you claim during the day people doubt you because your timing seems off.
Examining a claim:
Always look at the motivation behind a claim. I know some people found Risen scummy for backtracking on his claim during the night, but everyone should take that with a huge grain of salt. Yes, his play was very bad, particularly in that he thought it would spare him from dying (when he failed to realize that dying was not the problem). When you've claimed as a cop your job after that point is to play as pro-town as possible. Risen didn't do a very good job of that, but at the very least his claim didn't have many false scum motivation possibilities.
Why would a scum claim in that situation, at that time, with those checks? When you examine the claimer, ask yourselves those questions. Does a scum benefit from claiming in that fashion?
The answer in this game was no scum claims in the way Risen claimed, and in looking back after his claim the behavioral tells are obvious he's a cop. This should be especially obvious to the subjects of his massive opinion changes. (i.e his checks) He claimed in kind of a weird way (I guess he thought he was being subtle) but in reality if scum had read his posts they should've known he was a cop or at the very least some sort of blue by d2.
Keeping this in mind, what happens when Risen starts going insane on the following night? Anyone who is reading the thread here should remember back to Risen's behavior before the claim and match it to his behavior at the claim. Then compare the reads he had immediately before and after the night posts. If there is a big swing or an irrational focus on someone then the reason he's acting wonky is because he has a dumb notion about getting shot. If the players he focuses on don't match his claimed checks, and there are no signs of changes/reinforcements of opinions with the claimed checks, he's a liar. Chances are if he's a liar, he's a scum liar.
Of course the second part shouldn't ever have been considered because there were tells that he was initially telling the truth about being a cop.
For clarity I'd like to bring up some example claims and give the background on them. The exercise is: Is the claim fake, or real? How can you tell? Was it a good (fake)claim? In other words, did it clearly benefit the claimer's faction? How can you tell?
I will release answers to these following a bit of discussion, assuming that people like this sort of stuff. Try not to look at the outcome of the game: I provide you with enough information here (often times information I myself had) to determine the claimer's faction and motivations without reading the game itself.
Example 1: Analyzing a cop claim:
claim post
So this is the claim post. You can read through his entire filter if you wish; it's not long, and it's not particularly full of anything much more than standard lurker fare. I'm going to provide information and let the alignment-divining come to you, the reader. I will sometimes give my own alignment so that you can "play the game" from my perspective.
Player: Hyaach
Game: TL Mafia LVI hosted by MrWiggles
Time of claim: Beginning of day 3
Role claimed: cop
Background:
At the time of this claim, it was day 3 with 20-22 players left (4 scum left out of the original 6, of 27 players total) and there were two main lynch targets. One was a failed lynch from d1, a wagon on the player broodkingexe (BKE). The other was a semilurker who contributed very little outside of a conspiracy theory that I was godfather (not true :p) I had a townread on BKE and a scumread on Twelve, though I found it least likely that both were scum together.
On the previous day I had pushed Katina as a lynch, but it failed miserably because there was very strong resistance from multiple players who had a town read on her. She defended herself as well and the lynch was dropped completely from consideration for d3.
A few hours into d3 was the timing of the claim. Hyaach claimed in the same fashion as the rest of his posts: a relatively nondescript one liner that said BKE was town (one of the main wagons) based on his n1 check and that Katina was scum based on his n2 check.
Based on this information: was the claim a scum claim or a town claim? Why?
Which faction does it appear to benefit (i.e. was it a good claim)? Why?
Example 2: Analyzing a jailkeeper claim:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284685
Player name: wherebugsgo
Game name: Mini X hosted by Radfield
Time of claim: beginning of day 4
Background:
Okay, this game was pretty small, so I'll rundown a quick summary. The setup was 2 of 4, a 7 town vs 2 mafia setup with 5 vanilla townies and then the last 2 roles chosen out of the following 4 options(2 of 4): Sane Cop, Doctor, Jailkeeper, or a sixth Vanilla Townie. There were no notifications (hit or roleblock) in this game. Jailkeepers could stop mafia shots.
Playerlist on d4:
1.Palmar Killed Night 1
2.Mr Wiggles Lynched Day 1
3.wherebugsgo
4.Meapak_Ziphh
5.Erandorr Killed Night 2
6.prplhz
7.hiro protagonist Lynched Day 3
8.jaybrundage Lynched Day 2
9.Sandroba[/spoiler]
On day 1, one of the scum (MrWiggles) is lynched after making a fairly big slip. Most of the players were in accordance with lynching him, myself included. However I was not part of the lynch even though I supported it, partly due to being afk and also because I preferred the secondary lynch candidate on day 1.
Of this playerlist it's widely agreed that the strongest town players would be in the order of sandro, Palmar, Meapak and then everyone else. On night 1, Palmar was killed by the mafia and this This was jaybrundage's first game IIRC. On d2 we lynched jaybrundage for being scummy; he flipped noob town. On day 3 we lynched hiro protagonist who is also known for playing pretty scummy. I was a heavy pusher of both the d2 and d3 lynches.
At the beginning of d4 the playerlist looked like the above. No one had died the previous night, which either meant a successful shot block (whether by roleblocking the mafia killer or protecting the target) OR that mafia held their shot. I was still alive, as were sandroba, Meapak (who was replaced by deconduo) and prplhz. As it was 1v3, it was MYLO (barring a save)
No blue had claimed at the beginning of d4 when I claimed jailkeeper. My actions were Erandorr night 1, prplhz night 2, and sandro night 3. I had breadcrumbed being a jailkeeper several times over the course of previous days (which I then pointed out immediately following my claim)
Claim post here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284685¤tpage=26#503
breadcrumb post follows shortly afterward.
Based on this information, was I scum or town? What identifies my claim in one way or the other?
Immediately following my claim was a doctor claim by prplhz. He claimed to protect sandro every night. Town or scum claim? Why?
Example 3: Analyzing another cop claim:
Player name: chaoser
Game name: TL Mafia XLIV hosted by GMarshal
Time of claim: beginning of day 4
Quick summary: The game started out as a 30 player game with the likes of Foolishness, Palmar, Mig, Curu, Kurumi, supersoft, some smurf using the account QuickSilver7 (never figured out who that guy was; I heard rumor that was going around it was RoL) Brownbear, Jackal, bumatlarge, chaoser, Varpulis, JeeJee, Dropbear, and myself as a first time TL mafia player.
At the beginning of day 4 we're on the heels of the first scum lynch on the previous day (a killing of Mig spearheaded by Foolishness and chaoser) which brought the game to 13v5. 18 were alive and it took 10 to lynch. Foolishness had just died and flipped watcher, and breadcrumbed obviously that he had strong reason to believe this guy nard was scum.
Immediately at the start of day 4 chaoser claims to have a red check on the player vain, with his sanity being confirmed by green check on Foolishness n2 and red check on Mig n1 (thus explaining why he was so adamant about killing Mig on d2 + d3). He appears to be concerned about living longer when Foolishness died on the previous night.
Solely based on the timing of this claim (and whatever you may glean from the information I have provided above), is this is a scum or town claim? Why?
Which faction does it appear to benefit?
+ Show Spoiler [possiblyrelevanthint] +I was a tracker and I tracked bumatlarge to vain that same night
Enjoy guys, feel free to post thoughts/answers (put them in spoilers perhaps) and then I'll be back later today with more stuff. I'm gonna take a short nap, go to school to finish some work, and then perhaps I'll have time to reread and post more stuff.
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TRY NOT TO CHEAT :p
I'll provide my own thoughts on these questions and process later.
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Oh you're a hero. Thank you so much for writing this!
Edit: Can't answer question only got through first section as I'm on my phone but will def try to think this through tonight.
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I've been working on a game set up I wanted to bring into the light at some point and watching the scum play in this game, and more importantly the reasons behind it, made me feel that now was the time.
Many good town players seem to find playing scum hard because you are, inherently, evil. (see Tali in obs "Marv I don't like being the bad guys " p 144). However it is only the flavour which makes these players bad and the town good, since being on the 'bad' side negatively effects people's play I propose a mafia game in which the flavour differentiates the town and mafia as bad and good respectively. I have thought of a few flavour set ups in which this would work. See below.
Set-up 1: Star wars mini mafia. 'town' is a storm trooper squad with two or three Rebel infiltrators (i.e. Luke and Han from episode IV) the rebels can comunicate and it is there goal to destroy this squad of faceless, nameless, soldiers from the inside out. The squad of Stormtroopers has to root out the spies and have them killed by firing squad. Power roles are force users.
Set-up 2: (is very politically incorrect): Nazi mafia. There is a small German town that has almost totally eradicated their Jewish population, there are a few Jews left who still have a means of communication but little else. The members of the Nazi party decide to ship one person off to the camps every day while the Jews can turn in one of the Nazi's in to the SS every night and have him/her imprisoned for being a Jewish Sympathizer.
Set-up 3: American spy ring in soviet Russia. Pretty self explanatory.
Anyways, I want to see the difference this kind of set up would have on Scum players abilities to show interest in the game and to fight for themselves instead of lurking and simply waiting for the game to be over.
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
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I read some of LVI so I can't do that one and I think you gave away the answer for Example 2 a little earlier.
+ Show Spoiler [Example 3] +
I'd say scum.
1. You have a an extremely good confirmed town player with a blue role that believed a certain player was scum. Why try to lead the town onto a different lynch? Your red check can always be given out later.
2. The timing is weird. Even if chaoser is concerned about being night killed, there is no reason for a real cop to claim during the day. Let the lynch go on as normal and then right before the end of night 4, claim your actions.
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@HiroPro
+ Show Spoiler +What about the fact that if chaoser is scum, he's trading 1-for-2 by claiming. That makes 0 sense. Town lynches vain and he flips town, then they lynch chaoser for lying, and then nard because foolishness said to.
It seems much more likely, with the tracker check from WBG, that chaoser is actually town and happened to investigate the person who got framed. The timing of the claim likely loses town 2 players (vain, and chaoser) because of bad DT luck, and a bad claim.
Edit: The alternative could be that he is bussing a teamate to get town cred for the rest of the game, but then he loses 2 teamates in vain and nard.
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On July 23 2012 05:25 Promethelax wrote:
I've been working on a game set up I wanted to bring into the light at some point and watching the scum play in this game, and more importantly the reasons behind it, made me feel that now was the time.
Many good town players seem to find playing scum hard because you are, inherently, evil. (see Tali in obs "Marv I don't like being the bad guys " p 144). However it is only the flavour which makes these players bad and the town good, since being on the 'bad' side negatively effects people's play I propose a mafia game in which the flavour differentiates the town and mafia as bad and good respectively. I have thought of a few flavour set ups in which this would work. See below.
Set-up 1: Star wars mini mafia. 'town' is a storm trooper squad with two or three Rebel infiltrators (i.e. Luke and Han from episode IV) the rebels can comunicate and it is there goal to destroy this squad of faceless, nameless, soldiers from the inside out. The squad of Stormtroopers has to root out the spies and have them killed by firing squad. Power roles are force users.
Set-up 2: (is very politically incorrect): Nazi mafia. There is a small German town that has almost totally eradicated their Jewish population, there are a few Jews left who still have a means of communication but little else. The members of the Nazi party decide to ship one person off to the camps every day while the Jews can turn in one of the Nazi's in to the SS every night and have him/her imprisoned for being a Jewish Sympathizer.
Set-up 3: American spy ring in soviet Russia. Pretty self explanatory.
Anyways, I want to see the difference this kind of set up would have on Scum players abilities to show interest in the game and to fight for themselves instead of lurking and simply waiting for the game to be over.
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Is this serious? Cause I don't believe flavor has any bearing on the quality of one's play. Bad play is bad play regardless of the flavor of the game.
In fact I almost made Terrans scum and Zerg town this game because of the number issue but then couldn't really think of good ways for it to make sense.
Gonna add some more examples in a minute. I have like ~3 that I can remember encountering off the top of my head so I'll go back and write backgrounds for them.
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On July 23 2012 06:23 Keirathi wrote:@HiroPro + Show Spoiler +What about the fact that if chaoser is scum, he's trading 1-for-2 by claiming. That makes 0 sense. Town lynches vain and he flips town, then they lynch chaoser for lying, and then nard because foolishness said to.
It seems much more likely, with the tracker check from WBG, that chaoser is actually town and happened to investigate the person who got framed. The timing of the claim likely loses town 2 players (vain, and chaoser) because of bad DT luck, and a bad claim.
Edit: The alternative could be that he is bussing a teamate to get town cred for the rest of the game, but then he loses 2 teamates in vain and nard.
+ Show Spoiler +
Eh, I didn't look at the tracker thing. Could be a framer. Could be a medic too, I guess (a really weird medic protect though (judging from what wbg said about what previously happened)). Could also be mafia hitting a vet. Dunno, I can't really tell from the info that's there.
But I doubt it's a bus (you've already bussed Mig, going after another one of your teammates when another likely teammate is also up for lynch? pointless) and I don't think chaoser is town.
A lot of towns are really bad at lynching the other person in 1-1 cop scenario though (I've been in a situation myself where a confirmed cop had me as a red check and town still didn't lynch me because they feared framer/miller). Also, with 5 people mafia still has 3 KP. Losing another member right after is pretty bad (reduces KP to two) and not something they'd want to happen. chaoser would know these things and I think he'd be comfortable making a fake claim in this scenario. And it's not really a 1 for 2 trade. nard would definitely die without chaoser claiming. He shouldn't really be part of the ratio.
Also, the foolishness check is a little weird. From the information that can be gathered, chaoser believes that Mig is scum, so his sanity from his standpoint could possibly be normal or paranoid. But making a check on Foolishness just to eliminate that possibility (paranoid) is just really strange. Bit convenient to have your checks be dead too.
Ultimately though, chaoser is a good player and it's really doubtful that a good player would claim cop like that if he really was town. The timing makes pretty much no sense from a town standpoint but it does help several mafia objectives (the most important being trying to shift the lynch off a very likely mafia).
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On July 23 2012 07:13 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 06:23 Keirathi wrote:@HiroPro + Show Spoiler +What about the fact that if chaoser is scum, he's trading 1-for-2 by claiming. That makes 0 sense. Town lynches vain and he flips town, then they lynch chaoser for lying, and then nard because foolishness said to.
It seems much more likely, with the tracker check from WBG, that chaoser is actually town and happened to investigate the person who got framed. The timing of the claim likely loses town 2 players (vain, and chaoser) because of bad DT luck, and a bad claim.
Edit: The alternative could be that he is bussing a teamate to get town cred for the rest of the game, but then he loses 2 teamates in vain and nard. + Show Spoiler +
Eh, I didn't look at the tracker thing. Could be a framer. Could be a medic too, I guess (a really weird medic protect though (judging from what wbg said about what previously happened)). Could also be mafia hitting a vet. Dunno, I can't really tell from the info that's there.
But I doubt it's a bus (you've already bussed Mig, going after another one of your teammates when another likely teammate is also up for lynch? pointless) and I don't think chaoser is town.
A lot of towns are really bad at lynching the other person in 1-1 cop scenario though (I've been in a situation myself where a confirmed cop had me as a red check and town still didn't lynch me because they feared framer/miller). Also, with 5 people mafia still has 3 KP. Losing another member right after is pretty bad (reduces KP to two) and not something they'd want to happen. chaoser would know these things and I think he'd be comfortable making a fake claim in this scenario. And it's not really a 1 for 2 trade. nard would definitely die without chaoser claiming. He shouldn't really be part of the ratio.
Also, the foolishness check is a little weird. From the information that can be gathered, chaoser believes that Mig is scum, so his sanity from his standpoint could possibly be normal or paranoid. But making a check on Foolishness just to eliminate that possibility (paranoid) is just really strange. Bit convenient to have your checks be dead too.
Ultimately though, chaoser is a good player and it's really doubtful that a good player would claim cop like that if he really was town. The timing makes pretty much no sense from a town standpoint but it does help several mafia objectives (the most important being trying to shift the lynch off a very likely mafia).
+ Show Spoiler +Hmm, I've never played a game with more than 1 mafia KP, so I didn't really think about that. Thinking about that, the fake claim makes much more sense. Delaying scum dying by 1 extra day is basically a free kill.
I'm still not sure about the tracker though. There's so many possibilities though that depend on knowing more about the game, although I agree that doc is unlikely.
Edit: In fact, looking at it from that angle, then the fake claim at worst case scenario gets them to MYLO with the possibility of very little scumhunting happening in the mean time.
13v5, and get the mislynch with the fake claim. 12v5. 3 KP, so 9v5 on the next day.
If town follows up on the chaoser claim (again, worst case), then its 9v4. 2 KP puts it at 7v4.
Then, assuming town follows up on nard, its 7v3. 2kp puts it at 5v3, aka MYLO.
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It's not flavor that I don't like. I don't like deceiving, manipulating, scheming etc. I like figuring shit out, combing through evidence, putting patterns together.
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@talis
I know what you mean. While playing town and playing mafia do have some things in common, I think they require somewhat different skill sets. Town is more logic, deduction, and analysis whereas mafia is more deception and manipulation. I've always thought of playing mafia as more of an art and playing town as more of a science. I like town more myself, but I want to roll mafia just 1 time so I know what it feels like to play as mafia on TL.
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United States22154 Posts
Normal Mini Mafia II is an excellent game to read if you want to hone your claim analysis skills, there are 2 that are worth examining in that game.
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I was adding 3 claims to the example list and I was using one from that game haha.
But then my browser crashed. I should've saved it in a document 
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Was Risen's claim that scummy?
I thought the fact that he "confirmed" 2 townies as town increasing the chance that he himself or his scumbuddy is lynched would "confirm" it as a legit claim since it wouldn't make any sense as scum.
Like I said the only way it would make sense if he was scum was a Risen+solstice scumteam (so he'd be protecting his buddy by that point), but Risen's behaviour was townie, at least compared to games like LIII
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On July 22 2012 05:18 Promethelax wrote:
Gonzaw:
Speaking as someone who has played with you and watched you play I'd like to throw in my opinion here. You need to use the huge amount of effort you have to do something more productive for town you add so much to the game that, at times, it is unreadable.
You need to post less not more.
I would love to watch you in a game where you gave yourself a posting limitation of some kind and forced yourself to make concise reads. You essentially post your thought process and notes in the thread I think that instead you should write all that up, put it in word and give town the outlines of your thoughts on some people if you could consolidate those thoughts into a single post and, when you had new thoughts make another complete post with all of your thoughts that would be more beneficial to town.
You post so much that every good read you have is brought down by the sheer weight of your posting sometimes it is easiest to just ignore you, even when you are right, remember: not everyone shares your incredible amount of both time and dedication and when a thread is thirty pages longer at night than it was in the morning something needs to be skipped over.
Yes, I know what you are talking about and I know I "overposted" at times.
I tend to do that as town yes (like in that MTG mafia game we played together).
The thing is that I didn't see it would be seen as scummy this game instead of "just very bad town" like usual >_> <_<
If people think I'm town and follow me I don't really mind overposting as long as when they start following me I have correct reads 
Most games they think I'm town but I have bad reads (or just don't follow me), but in this game I had good reads but they thought I was scum (by D2 forward, ignore D1 >_>).
Hmm, yeah, I'll try not to overpost and do what you and others said though. The thing is that when I'm not sure about someone I want people to post what they think about him so I can change my mind, etc.
If I keep everything a secret until I make a "case" or something, then if that read was wrong I may not be able to change it, while I could have changed it if I posted all my "thoughts" and people told me why they were wrong.
For instance, that's what happened with austin and S&B, I posted what I thought of them, other players told me why my thoughts were wrong, and it convinced me to change my mind.
Had I not made the huge "cases" against austin or S&B and just kept quiet and said "yeah austin scum" or something, then people may have not posted why austin/S&B were town (or why my thoughts on them were wrong) and I may have kept believing they were scum.
I guess a simple "what do you think of S&B/austin?" would suffice, but if people don't see the specific reasons I'm suspicious of them they can't respond to those reasons and tell me why those reasons are wrong.
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On July 23 2012 10:04 gonzaw wrote:
Was Risen's claim that scummy?
I thought the fact that he "confirmed" 2 townies as town increasing the chance that he himself or his scumbuddy is lynched would "confirm" it as a legit claim since it wouldn't make any sense as scum.
Like I said the only way it would make sense if he was scum was a Risen+solstice scumteam (so he'd be protecting his buddy by that point), but Risen's behaviour was townie, at least compared to games like LIII
A scum could've made his claim but the reason I'm bringing up the claim thing is because many people in the game called him out on it when he said he lied.
The claim itself may not have been great (IMO he didn't have to claim so early) and the lie was dumb but it very obviously was a town claim.
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
bugs! time to post more ^_^
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my bad, I've been busy with school and whatnot. I'll try to get stuff up tonight after I've finished my homework.
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EPT
