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On July 19 2012 12:28 gonzaw wrote:
Framers only frame townies to get a red check (never heard of framers being able to frame their own buddies to get them to check "town"...that's what Godfathers do).
That was my assumption of what framers do as well. That being said, the only experience I've ever had with Framer's was in sc2 mafia, which has its own list of weird rules, but in that you can only frame townies to appear red, not friendlies to appear green.
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EBWOP: If framers can make other scum return innocent, then lynching the cop is much less effective, and claiming cop was an even worse play that I imagined, assuming he isn't scum.
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On July 19 2012 12:49 Risen wrote:
Lol did anyone bother reading the OP? First, gonzaw plays dumb with my cop reveal, now he's playing dumb with the miller thing. So scummy wtf...
Miller thing?
I ctrl+f'd miller on this page and the only result was your post just now mentioning it?
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I really, really don't understand why the other Mason isn't claiming.
I certainly hope when the game ends that he has a good explanation, but right now its just frustrating. Even just 1 confirmed townie makes a huge difference in the way this day plays out.
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On July 19 2012 14:38 Risen wrote:
Also, it happened. Lost my cool. Mission failed.
A valiant effort.
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On July 19 2012 15:05 Miltonkram wrote:
@ gonzaw
I didn't realize my vote was still on Keirathi. Thanks for clearing that up.
##UnVote: Keirathi
##Vote: gonzaw
Regarding your question, in Keirathi and I's previous game together, Newbie Mini XIX, he put in a ton of effort. He had this "never-say-die" attitude that caused him to be incredibly active.
Keirathi giving up doesn't fit in with the picture I have of him from that game. There are two reasons for a player to give up, they are frustrated or they're giving up as a scum ploy. I originally thought Keirathi giving up was extremely scummy, but thinking over the situation and rereading his responses gives me the impression that he's actually frustrated. I find Mattchew's case against you more convincing anyways.
Newbie XIX was much, MUCH less frustrating than dealing with Risen 
At least there I was fairly sure I was right. Hell, I'm not even sure that Risen is fakeclaiming, but all the arguing is clouding my judgement on OTHER PEOPLE besides just him. Its frustrating thinking about two townies arguing with each other so hard while the two scum that are left are just laughing their way to the bank. I really didn't see any other way out of the situation than for one (or both) of us to die.
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Just want to make a few comments, then I'll go read his LIII filter.
On July 19 2012 15:17 gonzaw wrote:
-He was the 7th vote on talis, meaning he basically prevented a NL to save talis (albeit he HAD to vote or be modkilled)
7th vote is just insurance. With 11 people alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Being 7th is actually a null point to me, or maybe SLIGHTLY on the scummy side of the line. Not enough to be damning anyways.
On July 19 2012 15:17 gonzaw wrote:
-This cop claim doesn't make much sense if he's scum since it's not an "obvious" attempt to disrupt or confuse town, it actually gives us lots of info (about S&B and solstice for instance).
I don't really understand this point. There are definitely situations in which Risen flipping scum causes confusion depending on how long he actually lives.
On July 19 2012 15:17 gonzaw wrote:
His gambit of attacking me and then dropping it doesn't seem too suspicious I think. Basically because I don't think he'd do it as scum, he'd be VERY happy with me getting lynched, so I doubt he'd try a gambit that avoids that when other people were intent on lynching me.
I half-agree. It really does seem pretty far-fetched to think he would do that as scum, but he already gave himself an out (paraphrasing "if gonzaw flips red, Matt is scum, if he flips green, keir is scum"). So if we read that sentence with the assumptions that 1) Risen is scum, 2) you are town, 3) I am town, I think you can see how it could potentially play out in scums favor with Risen trading 2 for 1 and his scumbuddy bussing him on the Day-of-5. (Yes, I know that is purely speculation. I'm not saying that I necessarily think that I am right, but I haven't discounted the possibilty yet, and it IS a possibility).
On July 19 2012 15:17 gonzaw wrote:
His attack on Keirathi isn't that good...but well his attack on Vivax wasn't either, and him not playing that great doesn't equal him being scum.
I agree. I think there are things that warranted him attacking me, and I'm trying my best not to just OMGUS. I think there are some holes in his logic, but I'm not sure if that makes him scum or just playing badly because he's frustrated too.
On July 19 2012 15:17 gonzaw wrote:
Now let's analyse this logically:
1)Risen claimed cop with a green check on S&B and solstice
2)The Godfather is dead
3)There is only 1 Godfather at most
4)Because of (2) and (3), there is no GF alive this game
5)One can only distrust green checks when a GF is alive
6)Because of (4) and (5) one can trust any green check this game
7)Because of (1) and (6), if Risen is town, then we can trust his green check
8)Because of (7), if Risen is town, S&B and solstice are town.
8.a)If Risen is town, then S&B is town
8.b)If Risen is town, then sosltice is town
I think Risen is town, therefore I think S&B is town and solstice is town.
Thats an awful lot of steps to state something that was pretty obvious already :o
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EBWOP: Pretty obvious if you make the assumption that framer's can't frame teamates to have green checks. I'm hoping WBG will be here soon to answer that.
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On July 19 2012 15:45 Risen wrote:
Framers don't make scum look town.
That was my assumption coming into the game too, because thats how framers have worked in previous mafia games I have played. But some people seem to think differently, so mod confirmation would be great.
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I just want to say that this game is a clusterfuck.
Its 2 am, so I'm going to get some sleep. Maybe I can divine some new perspective or something.
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On July 20 2012 01:16 DropBear wrote:Ok I'm moving on from Risen, I want to lynch Keirathi. There are five main points against him for mine. 1. Firstly, he backs up and sheeps tali's case against me on day 2. Show nested quote +On July 14 2012 05:15 Keirathi wrote:DropBearAlong with tali, I feel like he was been entirely overaggressive and disruptive with thinks like + Show Spoiler +On July 13 2012 02:58 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2012 02:20 talismania wrote:On July 13 2012 02:00 DropBear wrote:
##Vote Vivax the hell? any reasons beyond what marv said? I called him out as being suss last page, do you read boy? , but he refuted that with some meta argument, so I'll give him the BotD for that just being the way he plays.
Not really anything to say about this. Yes, I did.
On July 20 2012 01:16 DropBear wrote:2. His avoidance of voting for tali day 2. He clearly doesn't want to vote for tali, but doesn't give any other options. Not only this he puts in a martyr at the end. Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:45 Keirathi wrote:Man, missing 90% of the day is frustrating. I'm second guessing everything at this point, and don't have any really strong townie reads. Also I really don't know what I think about tali. There's so many cases against him, and they are all decent, but none of them are damning I think. Maybe enough little things adds up to him being scum, but I remain unconvinced. Almost everything about him is either directly relating to his plan, or relating to things that branched out from his plan. I agree that his plan was really bad and I don't want to support bad play, but like Milton pointed out, he was entirely too invested in it. I don't really see scum as staying that invested into pushing something to intentionally bring attention onto himself. Something about this case and being so little opposition just feels bandwagonny. If I'm wrong, it probably means I get lynched tomorrow because of this post though 
I didn't give any other options? I posted my thoughts on sciberbia BEFORE i made that post.
On July 20 2012 01:16 DropBear wrote:3. So who does he vote? Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 06:51 Keirathi wrote:
Bleh catch 22. Have to vote but I don't particularly feel good about the tali lynch. I don't think its impossible that he is scum, but I'm decently positive he's not.
I don't really think Drop or s0lstice are great cases either. So who the eff to vote for. My gut read on a throwaway vote, or the popular read with no conviction?! Who does he vote? sciberbia, the first person to make a case against tali.
I mentioned I was out of town. I get back to the thread with 7 votes on my teamate (if we're assuming that I'm scum here). Why wouldn't I just hop on the wagon? Why would I go after the person attacking him? I mean, there was no way scib was going to get lynched at that point. So what would be the benefit for me as scum to even make a case or vote him?
On July 20 2012 01:16 DropBear wrote:4. Next he jumps rapidly onto the gonzaw bandwagon. Sole reasoning here. Note that a lack of explanation behind a vote was a key reason he voted for me on day 1, this is a double standard.
What can I say? I think hopping on someone for no reason is dumb. I obviously thought gonzaw was a red check from the cop. He keeps saying that that was never his intent, but thats what I thought when I read his claim post.
On July 20 2012 01:16 DropBear wrote:5. Lastly his ragequit. If he was actually a townie, he's arguing for a deliberate mislynch here. Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 16:48 Keirathi wrote:On July 18 2012 16:46 Risen wrote:
It's hilarious how scummy keirathi's posting is. (i guess I'm the only one seeing it though since you have to take my being a cop as true to see it that way)
And maybe strongandbig sees it. Then fucking lynch me today so you can get past your tunnel vision that you had with Vivax and maybe make an actual good read. I'm serious, as much as I don't want us to lynch a townie today, I would rather Risen not be biased and tunneling me and not trying to find the real scum. ##Vote: Keirathi He mentions the real scum a lot, but his lynch plan was the same as mine, lynch Risen to confirm two townies. No scumhunting there. Also, I have only seen a ragequit like this once before; ilovejonn in mafia 39 who was scum and was backed into a corner so this is what he did. ##Unvote
##Vote Keirathi
[/quote]
You are right, I was arguing for a deliberate mislynch. Because I didn't (and maybe now still) believe that the whole Risen vs me situation isn't going to resolve until one of us dies. And, despite Risen constantly saying otherwise, I think the mafia will do whatever they can to keep him alive for absolutely as long as possible.
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What? I fail to see where I said that.
I assume you mean "And, despite Risen constantly saying otherwise, I think the mafia will do whatever they can to keep him alive for absolutely as long as possible."
They could have a framer too. You've already made abundantly clear who you plan to investigate if I get lynched today.
Also, if gonzaw is town, they could just leave you alive anyways, but that would leave 2 confirmed townies in the day of 5 so I doubt that.
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Basically what I'm saying is that if they DO have a roleblocker, they have no reason to ever kill you. If they have a framer, they don't have much reason to kill you tonight unless gonzaw is scum since you already made it clear you plan to investigate him when I die.
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On July 20 2012 02:35 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 02:31 Keirathi wrote:
Basically what I'm saying is that if they DO have a roleblocker, they have no reason to ever kill you. If they have a framer, they don't have much reason to kill you tonight unless gonzaw is scum since you already made it clear you plan to investigate him when I die. Lol wtf is this? If you're town you're doing a horrible job defending yourself. If they have rb I claim rb'd and get lynched tomorrow to confirm. If they have framer he better do a good job of guessing bc a smart cop will place his investigations where they aren't expected when there's a possible framer. Night one I almost literally threw a dart at a board of people to determine my check. If there is a framer and they want to let me live he and I will be doing the dance of wifom.
On July 19 2012 10:28 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2012 10:22 Keirathi wrote:
So, another question for Risen:
What will you do moving forward if I am lynched today and I don't flip scum? I'm not even asking you to believe that I'm not scum, just from a purely hypothetical context, I would like you to explain what your next course of action would be.
You were so convinced Day 1 that Vivax was scum, and you were wrong and then disappeared and "grieved" over how wrong you were. Will it be the same? I'll check gonzaw tonight and if I'm alive move on from there. Scum check = push him, get myself lynched, then pray for gon/matt lynch. If town check I freak out, break down into gibberish and eat my hat.
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On July 20 2012 02:47 Mattchew wrote:
S&b and risen you should be on Gonzaw... And risen keirathi was unlikely to be jailed so
If he's telling the truth about being rb'd it's logical to think it was a scum rb
Err what?
I never claimed that I was rb'd? :o
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On July 20 2012 03:20 Mattchew wrote:
Answer the question... Do you think at any point this game Milton or kerathi would be jailed? Cause if not the point of my post is the same.. If you believe miltons claim then you logically believe it was a scum rb
gonzaw wrote:
If there is a medic/JK be on austin/sciberbia at all costs. Wifom about which one of them you protect.
I wouldn't mind anybody else dying and flipping town to be honest (maybe you could WIFOM and protect Keriathi or Milton as well).
Its kind of a suspicious point to me, with Milton claiming he was RB'd not long after that post. Like maybe they were orchestrating a jailer?
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On July 20 2012 03:30 s0Lstice wrote:
Did nobody else consider the fact that Marv could have been RB'ed + NK'd on night 1? happens all the time
If he was RB'd by jailer, then he wouldnt have died. I don't see any reason for scum RB to RB him if they were killing him too, unless they were just trying to hide the RB for night 1.
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Hmm good point. It's a fair thought.
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@Risen: How does that quote have anything to do with me being scum? I'm genuinely curious because I can't see your logic leap. And if that's not why you quoted that particular post, then why did you?
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On July 20 2012 04:10 Risen wrote:
I live tonight and get lynched tomorrow.
That's the part I'm worried about. No matter how much I've argued with you, I'm still not convinced that you are lying, I just don't understand WHY THE HELL YOU CLAIMED IN THE FIRST PLACE. Seriously, whatever justification you've given, its all dumb. So lynching you tomorrow, especially if don't get scum today, is a terrible consequence of you just making a bad play.
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EPT
