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On July 25 2012 11:57 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 11:23 Mattchew wrote:
This is a fucking stupid dance. Lynch MZ cause you VE supersoft and syllo (and myself) all agree he is scum. This doesn't have to be some stare down between you and VE... no none of you have a case. Since we're all suggesting targets, I'd say you should lynch zealos. He's just about confirmed red because of sandroba, once he's out of the way we can actually spend the day arguing with each other over who to lynch. While yesterday was great because we killed scum, it kinda sucked in terms of discussion because it was so obvious.
MZ, what do you think of Katina, austin and other people discussed by now?
Yes, you've said "lynch Zealos" ever since N1, we already know you think he's scum.....so? What else?
You can't think you complaining about people are considered contributions. Plus if you are really town and you know you'll likely get killed by Prob/lynch you should post all your reads and try to contribute as fast as you can to make sure people know what you think once you die and are "confirmed town".
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lol forgot layabout was in this game
I'll check him tomorrow though, I'm going to sleep now.
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On July 25 2012 18:25 syllogism wrote:
Gonzaw has defended both laya and BH and didn't vote BH despite him being the other day 1 wagon. Pretty sure Gonzaw is the chairman or at least mafia.
##vote Gonzaw
What the...?
Are you kidding me? You think I'm scum just because of the people I defended?
I don't remember defending layabout, and sorry if my read on BH was wrong, but I honestly didn't think he was scum (read that post where I mention him if you want to know why)
On July 25 2012 18:46 syllogism wrote:I'm much more confident about Gonzaw than meapak. There is no way meapak is going to be able to cast doubt on anything if he mafia. Gonzaw is pretty much guaranteed mafia and playing exactly like I would expect the chairman to play. He defended 2 chairman minions and attacked palmar on day 1, yet on day 3 he suddenly thought palmar was town. I wonder what changed his mind? Lets compare Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:50 gonzaw wrote:
About Palmars RL thingy:
Wait, Palmar tried to follow RL in iGrok's game yes (austin mentioned this I think)....but he was scum that game
I'm so fucking surprised at Mattchew and Foolishness that they assumed Palmar was town in that game and posted his RL thing with good intentions in mind...when he didn't.....because he was scum.
I'm more surprised at Mattchew for using it as evidence to shit on Katina. I would have thought a townie would check something twice if they'll use it as evidence someone else is scum.
I'll recheck Mattchew tomorrow, but I see him not caring about shit and posting sporadically, plus his first attack on Katina screamed of "picking an easy target".
About Palmar himself, he did that RL thing in iGrok's game and he was scum.
I don't see him doing shit this game, it's likely he's scum as well. However I don't know if he'd risk using his RL site thing 2 times in a row as scum both times, it seems obvious to me that someone would notice the similarity (I'm baffled how nobody noticed it to be honest, specially people that played in that game too, like VE and MZ).
I wouldn't mind lynching him, he's not doing shit and that seems to be his scum meta these days.
Show nested quote +About Palmar:I don't agree with this lynch at all. This lynch is based on him "being Executive because of balance issues" and because "Foo defended him without reason". I also Palmar is most likely town. Here is his filter this game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=87086Here is his filter from iGrok's game: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=341558&user=87086In iGrok's game he did stay to his "town aggressive Palmar" game on D1, but however as you can see from D2 onwards he stopped giving a shit about the game and just trolled from then on. I don't see that this game. In D2 he even started to be active and give his reads and reasoning behind them, even more so than in D1, and that's not how scum Palmar plays, he's putting much more effort this game than when he's scum.
Wow really gonzaw, Palmar started putting in effort after day 2? Just lynch gonzaw, he is guaranteed to flip mafia
I already fucking explained why I thought Palmar was town at that time:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678¤tpage=140#2782
Palmar made like 5-6 posts in a row with reads, reasoning, etc. I've never seen him do that as scum, specially not after D1.
On July 26 2012 01:07 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:50 gonzaw wrote:
About laya:
I don't think laya was casting doubt on the claim but rather trying to get an answer from sandro (on why he wasted his ability).
I don't get why some people think killing him should be a priority over people like syllo/FOolishness or even Palmar and stuff.
Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 10:01 gonzaw wrote:
layabout, do you think Palmar is town or do you just not want him lynched today? Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 10:08 gonzaw wrote:lol layabout stealing the words from my mouth before I post  If he didn't shoot Foo and is scum I don't see why he would even fake-claim in the first place. I've never seen a game where a scum fake-claimed a vig shot from someone else, specially if it's the beginning of the game. After laya flips mafia Show nested quote +On July 25 2012 12:01 gonzaw wrote:
lol forgot layabout was in this game
I'll check him tomorrow though, I'm going to sleep now. I'm sure you did
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678¤tpage=163#3252
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678¤tpage=164#3279
I POSTED IT BEFORE PROB EVEN DECIDED TO LYNCH HIM NOT AFTER.
I seriously didn't remember layabout at that time, but was going to sleep so didn't have time to check his filter.
For fucks sake syllo you think you can boss everybody just because you had good reads on flipped scum, but that doesn't make you "king that must be sheeped" player of this game at all, specially if you have such a shitty read on me based on shitty stuff like "he defended 2 minions" that you know doesn't say anything about me, but apparently you think it does since you think everybody is the "analysis machine" that you are and as soon as someone has a bad read they are confirmed scum.
On July 26 2012 01:35 syllogism wrote:Meanwhile in this game, with 1h 40 minutes until deadline and his vote on a person who didn't seem likely would get lynched Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 11:18 gonzaw wrote:
They could have easily been lynched if people had listened to reason and not say "we are not lynching vets today".
Anyways, I'm not in the mood right now and have to do other stuff, can't even find the willpower to read a single filter.
I don't know when the deadline is, but perhaps me getting lynched would be better, specially if a NL is the other alternative and I'll get the same shit on N1/D2.
Fuck it, sorry Ver/Incognito :/
At least I learned my lesson here.
I was exhausted at that time and very frustrated. I was going to get lynched both in this game and in Can't Believe and trying to cope with it tired the fuck out of me. I was also near getting lynched in my UG game (or at least had a lot of pressure on me). Getting lynched on 3 games at the same time is not as fun as you would believe.
Even fucking read Can't Believe, I was going to get lynched there but I didn't have the energy to do anything so I left there as well and went to sleep a little later.
*sigh*
I can't believe this is the only case against me, like, people seem to ignore everything else I wrote or something?
It's the same fucking thing as in Can't Believe, I bust my ass and then people think I'm scum just for "little details" and then don't even respond to me about my other posts.
I don't agree with this "either gonzaw or MZ" dichotomy at all either.
I wouldn't mind MZ dying but he's not my top suspect.
Does someone think Zealos/Katina/austin is town? Do some of you really think MZ is more likely scum than one of them? If so then please explain
Anyways seems people will stupidly sheep syllo again today so might as well try to post anything I can.
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On July 26 2012 04:31 syllogism wrote:
Oh I've to make a correction, gonzaw posted that layabout remark before probulous lynched him, doesn't change much though. Might be even worse actually as there is no reason to randomly state that you forgot talking about a person who you had never suspected and had even at one point defended.
Yes there is, I was reading filters from people and commenting on them, and I thought I read them all (the people I haven't read by that point).
After that post I remembered that layabout was in this game as well but I haven't read him so I posted that...you know...to be transparent about what I'm doing and so people don't go later and say "oh lol there are people you didn't mention lol you are scum" or some shit.
Actually I think I forgot about QBertz and BM as well.
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Oh one more thing:
syllo:
Meanwhile in this game, with 1h 40 minutes until deadline and his vote on a person who didn't seem likely would get lynched
You mean the guy that had like 5-6 votes at the time? The guy that I thought was more likely scum and had the most votes other than me (I actually may be wrong about this and BH may have had more votes, but both of them had plenty of votes anyways)?
The BH wagon started after I left, I didn't have psychic powers to know that he'd be a lynch candidate other than me at that point.
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##Vote: Zealos
I'll post all I can about him a little bit later, now I have some shit to do (I woke up just some few moments ago >_> )
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On July 26 2012 05:29 syllogism wrote:
Well that's nice, can we get a claim?
No.
I never like to claim even when facing being lynched, since it doesn't serve any useful purpose and will either convince people that "oh he's scum fake-claiming VT" if I claim VT or create a shitstorm if I claim blue (like it did in Bang Bang mafia).
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Fuck it's Can't Believe all over again
"Oh but he was wishy-washy about the flipped scum/defended the flipped scum! Therefore he's confirmed scum! Let's ignore everything else he did and lynch him!"
Seriously it's frustrating as fuck that this kind of stuff keeps happening.
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Wait:
On July 26 2012 01:40 Katina wrote:
We need to lynch gonzaw today. We already have some votes on him so let's keep it that way. There's a very good chance he's going to flip Mafia. Tomorrow we can worry about Meapak. Zealos and Chezinu would not make good lynches today.
##Vote gonzaw
Nice contribution there Katina!
So.....what about sloosh? You know, the other guy you wanted to lynch?
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On July 26 2012 06:06 austinmcc wrote:
Gonzaw, calm down and consolidate. Lot of day left, and if it's actually Can't Believe all over again it ends in us lynching scum.
At least some of your suspicion of Katina rests on her play in Liar Game. Do you feel that it transfers 1:1, given that Liar Game had PMs and odd lynch mechanics? I just don't know how far comparisons between the two games get you.
My suspicion rests in her behavior.
After rereading Liar Game I saw her behaviour there was different as well, i.e it's not what she would normally act as town.
As far as I know Katina didn't PM much in there, but what I'm talking about is how she approaches pushing her suspicions.
In here it's like Katina is detached from the game in a way. She makes the "lynch X" or "X is scum" posts....but it's not like she seems to care about that happening in the game at all, and doesn't care about figuring out their alignment either.
Just see that post I quoted earlier, it seems like an obvious post to just justify her vote and then leave.
Earlier posts of her followed the same suit, their purpose seemed only to satisfy the "post some suspicions, accuse some guys" achievement from scum, and that's it.
I don't see her trying to figure out people's alignment like in Liar Game for instance, I just see her accuse the same people over and over trying to appear that she's doing something useful, but not being invested in the game itself or seeming to care about it.
Hmm, austin, what exactly do you think of Katina then?
On July 26 2012 06:10 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On July 18 2012 07:40 gonzaw wrote:On July 18 2012 04:44 austinmcc wrote:
I have no name cache here, that's fine. But read this with an open mind. Seriously read point (1). Consider whether it makes sense.
(1) Sandroba's role is way, way, way too powerful
Not a single person here knows how sandroba's power works. Mafia, town, 5th party, whatever. Nobody is curious?
Nobody is thinking, jeez, in a game where mafia cannot communicate except through 2 messages per day cycle, 2 messages per night cycle, and there are NINE of them. A game where they might lynch each other, NK each other, use powers on each other. Nobody is going, holy balls, the ability to SEND FAKE MESSAGES is an incredibly, incredibly powerful role?
Think about it. The way sandroba used it, he's a cop. You ask someone to do something, if they do, they must have assumed it was from a mafia higher-up. So if they obey, they're mafia, you got this game's equivalent of a red check. Moreover, you're a cop that cannot be affected by any kind of framing power. Normal cops can be balanced out by gfs, millers, frames. A red check from a normal cop may or may not indicate scum. Saying "Hey use these 3 phrases in your next post to identify yourself" CANNOT be balanced by any mechanic at all. If they obey a message they received, when they had no idea anyone other than mafia could send messages, they must be mafia. Name a single other explanation, because when kurumi tried to give one, it sounded dumb and everyone agreed it sounded dumb. No. If a scum that's not CEO received his order first then sandro's message 2nd, he'd instantly figure out something is wrong, and it would be likely he'd figure out the 2nd message was bogus and not sent by his supervisor. If the scum is the CEO then he knows it's bogus. I think "Use these phrases to identify your partners" thing is not allowed in those mafia communications since it outs their mafia members so the hosts would censor it, meaning even if everything happened according to sandro's plan scum may just not believe that message would get by that censor.It's not that powerful if scum are smart and can easily figure out the bogus message; at least in this case (not if sandro had made a more "subtle" message). I don't really think his outburst here is "pushing a mafia agenda" and makes him scum alone, I'll need to read his filter first. It seems Foo' or syllo won't get lynched though. Austin and Blazinghand are the only choices? I don't really like any of them to lynch today. If I understand this post correctly, you were saying that what mafia would likely not believe a message that would tell them to identify themselves by posting something specific. But if that's the case, why did you think kurumi was mafia? It seems to me that when you were writing this, you weren't thinking about kurumi at all, because otherwise saying this doesn't make sense. This may be a bit of a stretch, but it feels weird to say something like this when you were "certain" one "mafia" had already fallen for it.
It's not that powerful if scum are smart and can easily figure out the bogus message; at least in this case (not if sandro had made a more "subtle" message).
I took it that Kurumi was a dumb mafia who fell for that trick.
The point I was making is that scum would not likely fall for the same trick again (of following the message and "crumbing" phrases in their posts), since they knew Kurumi fell for it, meaning sandro's role wasn't "insanely overpowered" like austin claimed it to be.
Well, that was before the whole "I'll PM someone, out the message......actually I didn't PM someone...actually I did" trick sandro used with Zealos....which in hindsight seemed kind of powerful since it was a pretty good trick
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I think someone asked why would scum Zealos not out the "incriminate" part from sandro's message.
...well, for one I'd ask myself why scum Zealos wouldn't out the whole message in the first place, since he knew sandro made a similar trick with Kurumi and even said in the thread that he'd PM someone a message he wanted to out.
But well, maybe he was indeed a minion who was never messaged before.
Anyways, the point is that if he's town, and was indeed dumb enough to keep the message for some reason, he'd have no reason to out the whole message, even the "incriminating" part.
If he was town he'd post it all, but he didn't.
It makes perfect sense as "outed" scum at that point. He leaves out the incriminating part of the message so people don't think it was an "obvious scum message", and hopes sandro doesn't read it.
Sandro already knew the message he sent him, so if he saw a thing similar to it that Zealos posted he'd know it was the message he sent, but it was possible he didn't strictly read the whole message trying to find inconsistencies (since he knew that message was his, he already knew the content).
I think Zealos was counting on that: sandro not reading the whole message Zealos posted and not outing the "incriminating" part.
Because the alternative, that Zealos is town and deliberately cut out that part and never mentioned it again, is EXTREMELY hard to believe, specially with Zealos' behaviour this whole game (i.e he doesn't seem to care about it).
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EBWOP:
"he'd have no reason to not out the whole message, even the "incriminating" part."
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Zealos:
Okay, first let's check his filter on MTG mafia (the one with the actual magic game, cards and shit, not the other mafia that was a normal mafia game): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=345422&user=230739
Then his filter here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349678&user=230739
There is quite a difference in behaviour.
In MTG, he just spouted anything he had in his mind, made a lot of one-liners, and seemed pretty confident in what he posted.
He was very temperamental (sp?) as well. If someone accused him with "bad" reasons (like S&B that game), he'd flip his shit and start tunneling, responding to everything, caring about what was happening.
Granted, this is a huge game and was huge in the first few days, so maybe you could disregard the whole "being confident" stuff, but I still see his behaviour to be quite different in this game.
In this game he's not aggressive, and he doesn't seem to care about what's going on, specially since this is basically the first post where he justified his reads....which came in N3.
He spent all D1/N1 (when he was active) talking about irrelevant stuff, and the only relevant scumhunting I've seen is softly accusing BH. Until N3 he didn't do anything relevant.
In MTG he might have been "scummy" by lurking a little bit, OMGUSing and stuff, but he tried to scumhunt, specially before N3.
There's also the very incriminating fact about the sandro' message that makes 0% sense if he was town, and he never mentioned again or even tried to explain why he cut the message.
Here:
On July 23 2012 20:25 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 19:35 Palmar wrote:i'm voting zealos. because of this: On July 20 2012 07:34 sandroba wrote:
Man this is fun.
I messaged Zealos yesterday before the day post. He never revealed he got pm. I just got confirmation that the pm was sent and Zealos has posted twice since then. So yeah fun times. and this On July 21 2012 03:36 sandroba wrote:
My PM to zealos actually started like this: No rest for the wicked. Don't trust any message that doesn't start with this phrase.
Which he omitted when he claimed the message. I thought it was a pretty obvious mafia message. Which basically means he's guaranteed to be scum. .....
That's all he has to say. Apparently he's so dumb he accidentally cutted of part of the message when he posted it.
Well I don't believe that, the fact that he didn't explain at all why he did that is more damning, as also the fact that he doesn't try to do anything even after people have given him a 2nd chance ever since D2
So that's why I think we should lynch Zealos today:
"There's a very good chance he's going to flip Mafia. Tomorrow we can worry about Meapak"
We still have 24 hours or more, this isn't coming down to a "gonzaw vs Meapak" lynch just because syllo/supersoft says so.
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On July 26 2012 06:52 syllogism wrote:Gonzaw I think your approach to situations Zealos and Sloosh are inconsistent and suspicious. In the case of Zealos you ignore every town-aligned explanation for his play while you aren't even slightly suspicious about Sloosh' claim and even suggest that supersoft is more suspicious despite claiming a mirror role of a flipped mafia. Show nested quote +On July 23 2012 09:54 gonzaw wrote:
lol when I saw Foo' flip CEO it made my day :D
I was very surprised about BH though, I really thought he was town.
About sloosh/supersoft:
I don't see any reason for sloosh to fake-claim he shot Foo' as scum if he wasn't the one that actually shot him.
I don't really see a reason for supersoft to fake-claim that either, unless he wanted to push a misslynch on sloosh.
We need to be sure about it, supersoft has been acting shady all game and this "contradiction" here doesn't sit well with me. Really, you think Sloosh' extremely unusual and unlikely role claim and the fact he shot a person who he had previously defended isn't suspicious, but you question supersoft's play more? Why would mafia supersoft ever counterclaim there? To force a mislynch? That's laughable. The counterclaimer in this situation is actually much less suspicious. You are mafia
I thought supersoft was mafia by that point, and sloosh claim didn't make sense from a scum point of view.
The double-claim was odd to me and I couldn't really figure out why, which is why I wanted a little more explanation about it and try to figure it out later.
I kind of ignored it afterwards after supersoft started to get a more active participation in town, actually pushing scum like he did in Bang Bang, which made me think that perhaps both of them were town in the first place, and what supersoft said (that they both shot Foo' and their bullets didn't get back) was more likely.
And no, in that specific case, if the counterlclaimer claims the claimer is scum but gives reasons that they both could be town it doesn't make him "less suspicious", which is what I thought at that time (i.e if supersoft was mafia, he'd just counterclaim, say that both of them could be town, but keep pushing sloosh's misslynch. After sloosh flips real vig, then he falls back to that statement about how both of them could still be town and avoid getting lynched himself).
I also don't get what this has to do with Zealos.
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On July 26 2012 07:05 Probulous wrote:
Did this Change to 24hr hrs? Cause I thought we had another 24. I only got my power yesterday.
Just skimmed but I am happy to
vote ## Gonzaw
Are you fucking kidding me?
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On July 26 2012 07:11 syllogism wrote:
We still have over 24 hours yes.
Gonzaw: it has to do with your approaches. In Zealos' case you dismiss every explanation that might explain his behavior even if he is town and in Sloosh' case you dismiss every explanation why the play makes sense from mafia perspective. The claim is so suspicious, that the inconsistency and flat out refusal to lynch sloosh combined with your eagerness to lynch zealos is why I am not willing to believe you are town.
Unsurprisingly sloosh voted meapak rather than gonzaw
I already posted why I'd like to lynch Zealos, it's not about his "claim" alone, but it plays a very good part.
And I do take into consideration explanations on why Zealos might have behaved like that as town (just being very dumb? I haven't really seen any of those "explanations" you were talking about), but I don't believe them.
I did take into consideration explanations why sloosh's play makes sense from a mafia perspective but I don't believe them either (that he was trying to get in a better position after Foo's flip because he defended Foo' at one point, etc, I already explained why).
It's possible sloosh is scum, but not just because of his claim, which at worst I find null.
I'll reread his filter once I can.
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sloosh was in no danger to be lynched at all when he claimed, Palmar was already lynched at that point basically.
sloosh's claim didn't push a scum agenda at all, he just claimed and then forgot about it, why the hell would he fake-claim as scum?
Yes, scum make bad claims at times but there are reasons behind them (for instance those Toad/VE claims from LI, they were bad but they served to shit up the thread and stuff), but I don't see a reason for an under-the-radar-at-that-point scum sloosh to fake-claim he hit the CEO when he knew he was going to be cc'ed and then never doing anything else about it.
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I didn't even see sloosh trying to push a supersoft lynch.
Unless you think he thought someone else was going to cc? Maybe marv or something, and he could push his lynch afterwards?
Even that seems too risky to do as scum
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On July 26 2012 07:25 supersoft wrote:
sloosh maybe thought that BH killed Foolishness. And his claim was shitty. He'll flip scum, too after we've lynched MZ and gonzaw...
Wouldn't he have waited before other people posted before doing that?
Hmm, it's possible though.
But why claim a stupid "delay-vig" with a "stupid" condition instead of straight up claiming town dreamflower in that case? If he thought BH was the one that shot Foo', and he flipped scum dreamflower.
Hm, if he claimed town dreamflower, and he believed the "mirror roles" thing being discussed, then he would have known he'd be cc'ed by a real town dreamflower.
Hmm could be though...
I'm still not sure, the claim may seem "shitty" but it's too risky to do so as scum if he didn't know who shot Foo' and just "hoped" BH did it.
Unless he's minion/Executive and the CEO/Executive told him to do that, in which case maybe BH did shoot Foolishness after all and they planned that since the beginning, but supersoft shot him too fucking up their plan.
Well then again they wouldn't have known VE was going to kill BH, which would give sloosh the opportunity to fake-claim the guy that actually shot Foo' if BH did shoot him as well :/
Unless it was a spur-of-the moment sloosh did right when BH died.
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I guess it makes more sense though, I didn't think of the possibility of a scum sloosh planning for BH to kill Foo' or something (although that still seems like a stupid plan, to kill the CEO on N2).
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EPT
