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marvellosity
United Kingdom36161 Posts
On August 01 2012 09:58 VisceraEyes wrote: He saying you should be grateful - obviously if he put you on a scum list we would have lynched the piss out of you dear. ah of course. must just be my youthful belligerence. | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On August 01 2012 07:54 Probulous wrote: I agree with what Bloody Cobbler is saying. I think if you halved the number of town blues the game would be fairer. Three day vigilantes is insane. We didn't need the snoopers or the cop to out the mafia team eventhough they are incredibly powerful roles. Risk, given the setup I have no idea why you would not just risk it on your own. Your team know you are looking for scum and unless you are a the town leader you are unlikely to get killed. If you do, well that is the risk you take. As for town lynching you, you have more power than the other townies in that you can night kill (once the rest are dead) so you should be able to manipulate town into misslynching. I know it is a risky strategy, I never said I expected everyone to do it. I am just suprised given 9 mafia that none tried it. PM Cops are irrelevant. Think about it, the people who the PM cops checked were all playing like mafia. The PM cop is the same as any other cop in that if you are playing with clarity they shouldn't check you. I tried to legitimately scumhunt... ....I actually thought Zealos was scum, BH and MZ were town, sloosh was more likely town and that Mattchew was scum (although I didn't pursue that since I thought he was the other executive  ).Seriously lol Mattchew was always "gonzaw is town get off him!" and tunneling Katina so much I thought he was the other executive and the CEO gave him orders to keep me alive/tunnel Katina | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
Really didn't expect to replace as an exec, seeing has this was only my second time rolling scum, and because Foolishness talked to gonzaw first, I was clueless for a half cycle, and was just relaying whatever he said because I didn't know what to say. This game was particularly difficult because as mafia we had to find out who mafia were separately from the thread, and in essence play two games at once, the first to find mafia teammates and the second to then push the not mafia. Not knowing if who you were pushing was 100% town or not causes hesitation, and it probably leaked out in the posts, whereas townies just played regular. It feels like most effort was put into identifying other mafia members, and therefore less energies were available to mislead / misdirect town. My first claim was probably panic induced as Foolishness was dead and suddenly I became the scum in charge without a clue how to play. I then pulled out the mole and doctored the PMs - second mistake here. I mistook pardoner for politician in my mind and thought BM was indeed mafia, so screwed up there, and I subbed katina's name with risk's which I believe played a part in his lynch (not sure, wasn't paying too much attention after I died) - didn't know risk was scum so shot ourselves in the foot there too. I wanted to set up Meapak for the late game but I should have realized sooner that medic on mafia team was dumb as heck. Or maybe I realized when he did the worst fake claim of all time. Maybe if Foolishness was alive a couple more cycles so that we could get some communications going it would have helped us ... but I really think that even without communication just the pure knowledge of knowing who was on your team would be so much better. Like, scum don't get a QT but are given each member's names kinda setup could maybe show the importance of communication better. All in all, thank you hosts for hosting, and players for playing. p.s. join Mad Men Mafia so we can start playing. | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
 I'm so glad this game was in summer lol. No way I could have kept up with the amount of posting we had if I had classes and work. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On August 01 2012 07:56 austinmcc wrote: I bought too hard into the "DTs check people who will be around later and you're going to want to know their alignment" mentality, so I avoided anyone I thought was going to get lynched. In hindsight, that was a particularly bad idea, because even when we had 2-3 clear candidates for a lynch I chose not to check any of them, fearing chance. Also, lol dem <_<s. I was reasonably sure you sent that because of the sender saying everyone thought him mafia, but those faces just confirmed it. If you'd been sending messages like that all along, you were getting to freely out yourself to every minion that noticed. I did that on purpose, so my minions knew who I was (also the linebreaks, bolded and underlined titles, and stuff). ....I guess that was a "common strategy" at that time, trying to give other mafia as much info as possible. Again I didn't know about any "nosy employer" role or anything so I didn't think there'd be any risks. I didn't know about the mole by then, but well I didn't really care about the mole knowing who I was. Plus all my minions were acting as scummy as fuck so I didn't think any of them would be a traitor >_> | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On August 01 2012 07:54 Probulous wrote: PM Cops are irrelevant. Think about it, the people who the PM cops checked were all playing like mafia. The PM cop is the same as any other cop in that if you are playing with clarity they shouldn't check you. That "PM Cop" outed three scum when he caught my message. It's not "irrelevant" if he can catch more than 1 scum with a "check", or can know all about scum's strategies (even if he outs only 1 scum). | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Also lol Zealos not only was "caught" yet was actually acting scummy. I can't believe how people didn't lynch him. Even I thought he was scum until like D4, how the hell did you guys figure out he was town?  | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
Ehm, should stop triple-posting and just edit my posts >_> Ooops there I go again | ||
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:10 gonzaw wrote: Again: That "PM Cop" outed three scum when he caught my message. It's not "irrelevant" if he can catch more than 1 scum with a "check", or can know all about scum's strategies (even if he outs only 1 scum). I was responding to risk. My point was that playing a solo game would make PM snoopers irrelevant because you would aim to look as townie as possible. Remember snoopers only get PM that go to or come from the person they check. On August 01 2012 10:14 gonzaw wrote: Also damn. I keep looking at the scum team, and if the game hadn't started yet I'd say the scum team would win Also lol Zealos not only was "caught" yet was actually acting scummy. I can't believe how people didn't lynch him. Even I thought he was scum until like D4, how the hell did you guys figure out he was town? I made my reasoning quite clear. The claim thing was dumb but it made no sense from a scum perspective either. Actually his whole play this game was terrible but it was not malicious and he doesn't have a record of playing fantastically. Compared to yourself who I know is really inciteful when you roll town, so I knew you were scum. I mean I almost got you lynched Day 1 and the only thing stopping me from pushing you later was I thought you were genuinely busy. That and we had better targets. Look at your targets for scumhunting. They were easy to push, you never went after the really big fish and you never raised something completely new. If you are behind (people think you are scum) you have to do something different. Something big. It was really hard to establish your innocence in this setup because everyone should have been legitimately scumhunting. This was true for town and for scum. The problem scum had was they decided not to do that on Day 1 which meant you guys were never truly cleared. The biggest disadvantage mafia had was they did not know who their team was and this gave town a goldmine of information. I kept going back to the early game because the one thing I knew for certain was that mafia was not being forthright with their reads. It was a simple strategy but it paid big dividends because it identified town and scum equally. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:05 slOosh wrote: Woo it's finally over! Really didn't expect to replace as an exec, seeing has this was only my second time rolling scum, and because Foolishness talked to gonzaw first, I was clueless for a half cycle, and was just relaying whatever he said because I didn't know what to say. This game was particularly difficult because as mafia we had to find out who mafia were separately from the thread, and in essence play two games at once, the first to find mafia teammates and the second to then push the not mafia. Not knowing if who you were pushing was 100% town or not causes hesitation, and it probably leaked out in the posts, whereas townies just played regular. It feels like most effort was put into identifying other mafia members, and therefore less energies were available to mislead / misdirect town. My first claim was probably panic induced as Foolishness was dead and suddenly I became the scum in charge without a clue how to play. I then pulled out the mole and doctored the PMs - second mistake here. I mistook pardoner for politician in my mind and thought BM was indeed mafia, so screwed up there, and I subbed katina's name with risk's which I believe played a part in his lynch (not sure, wasn't paying too much attention after I died) - didn't know risk was scum so shot ourselves in the foot there too. I wanted to set up Meapak for the late game but I should have realized sooner that medic on mafia team was dumb as heck. Or maybe I realized when he did the worst fake claim of all time. Maybe if Foolishness was alive a couple more cycles so that we could get some communications going it would have helped us ... but I really think that even without communication just the pure knowledge of knowing who was on your team would be so much better. Like, scum don't get a QT but are given each member's names kinda setup could maybe show the importance of communication better. All in all, thank you hosts for hosting, and players for playing. p.s. join Mad Men Mafia so we can start playing. I loled when you posted the "fake" PMs and people started filtering QBertz, and outed him as scum because of it (because he was "crumbing he had a passive ability by calling quiet people out" and that shit, as well as noticing the mole thing). lol worst luck ever My first claim was probably panic induced as Foolishness was dead and suddenly I became the scum in charge without a clue how to play Well, it made me think you were town at least (since I sincerely didn't think of any reason for you to claim that as scum) Defending you there was my attempt to "play townie" >_> Same as defending BH <_< ...and MZ >_> lol it certainly came back to bite me in the ass I wanted to set up Meapak for the late game but I should have realized sooner that medic on mafia team was dumb as heck Hmm, I didn't realize it at the time....but surely the scum medic would be on Foolishness at all costs right? Like, he was the most "likely scum" a minion could find, and any minion would know a scum Foolishness was either likely executive or CEO. The fact that Foo' died without the medic protecting him could have convinced us the Medic was the traitor. Anyways, I went through much of the game assuming none of my minions were traitors (although I had a slight suspicion on Palmar at one time since he went against all mafia at one point I think :/ ) I'd really like some "strategy" talk from the hosts though Like...what to message to your minions and stuff. I couldn't think of anything :/ I just gave them all the info I had, crumbed my identity in the order....and just tell them "do your thing" and nothing else. I tried thinking of using risk's or QBertz's abilities somehow (to confuse town and shit) but couldn't come up with anything in particular throughout the whole game. Yeah I was kind of clueless about the orders (I knew that would have happened since even before joining though >_> I was mostly planning on playing town here and see how to catch "uninformed" scum, not be "uninformed" scum myself )Also Foolishness...what was that "there will be a surprise in the thread at one point and you don't have to react to it, think about it before posting" thing you told us about? | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
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VisceraEyes
United States21171 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:32 layabout wrote: Not knowing your teammates is a tremendous advantage if you want to survive. Minions should not have given a rat's buttock about secretly figuring out who their team mates were. This game gave mafia the tools to play to their town game's. The biggest real issues for minions were the anonymous PM's, BM's stealing power and the difficulty of having to play out a very long game. ^ THIS ^ I hide behind my town-meta in most games I roll scum, and I was PRAYING to roll minion this game. | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:10 gonzaw wrote: 2 were caught by the snooping, Q-bert-Z was caught by his own posting. I agree that the role was strong, but we were also lucky in that I never caught a town message. Like, see rasta outing himself because of the double Chez message. Seemed like we would very well might have lynched Chez the next day, outing a nosy employee AND lynching a townie, just because of the town messaging roles. Honestly, in 8 checks we caught 1 scum message between the two of us. Had we caught a few town, especially town messages that were trying to fake mafia instructions...could have led to a couple easy mislynches and the outing of a few power roles. Just didn't play out that way.Again: That "PM Cop" outed three scum when he caught my message. It's not "irrelevant" if he can catch more than 1 scum with a "check", or can know all about scum's strategies (even if he outs only 1 scum). On August 01 2012 10:14 gonzaw wrote: Zealos didn't look lovely, but he was so entirely uninvested in the game before that message, and remained so entirely uninvested afterwards, that he didn't feel like a better lynch than other options. Plus, once mafia started flipping, they'd ALL been pushing Zealos. Made it really easy not to lynch the guy when every scum wanted him lynched.Also damn. I keep looking at the scum team, and if the game hadn't started yet I'd say the scum team would win Also lol Zealos not only was "caught" yet was actually acting scummy. I can't believe how people didn't lynch him. Even I thought he was scum until like D4, how the hell did you guys figure out he was town? | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
I think these things could be changed for the next game and would make a big difference in the outcome. I think a potential role list for at least the CEO and perhaps having members of the same level knowing only their partners would help. For example minions know the minions in their side of the company. Similarly the Execs know each other. It's is not a complete reveal but it gives mafia the ability to break up the early game into multiple groups. Internal things that affected mafia's ability to win
Mafia knew that Day 1 was imperative and I guess like a typical bureacracy they decided to wait for orders. This gave town the ability to really push their targets early and to set themselves up as townies before mafia could get going. By the end of Day 1 you had Sandroba and Bugs as confirmed town, you had Syllo as very townie. You had Gonzaw, BH and Foolishness as scummy. That is a disastrous start which they never really recovered from. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:25 Probulous wrote: I was responding to risk. My point was that playing a solo game would make PM snoopers irrelevant because you would aim to look as townie as possible. Remember snoopers only get PM that go to or come from the person they check. But then the snoopers would still check that minion and see he received a scum message I made my reasoning quite clear. The claim thing was dumb but it made no sense from a scum perspective either. Actually his whole play this game was terrible but it was not malicious and he doesn't have a record of playing fantastically. Compared to yourself who I know is really inciteful when you roll town, so I knew you were scum. I mean I almost got you lynched Day 1 and the only thing stopping me from pushing you later was I thought you were genuinely busy. That and we had better targets. Couldn't you say the same thing about sloosh? I mean, his claim didn't "make sense from a scum perspective" either (was just bad), and his play wasn't that incriminating (compared to Zealos at least). Yet Zealos was never considered as lynch at all yet sloosh was always "almost confirmed scum" ever since he claimed. Of course, unless I'm missing something that made people think "Zealos is town" and "sloosh is scum" that didn't have anything to do with their "dumb claims/reactions". Look at your targets for scumhunting. They were easy to push, you never went after the really big fish and you never raised something completely new. If you are behind (people think you are scum) you have to do something different. Something big. It was really hard to establish your innocence in this setup because everyone should have been legitimately scumhunting. This was true for town and for scum. The problem scum had was they decided not to do that on Day 1 which meant you guys were never truly cleared. I tried doing that with supersoft on D2 and nobody paid attention to me at all (even if they agreed) By that point I knew I had zero town presence and everything I did was pointless basically. The only thing I aimed to do was: save Palmar on D3 (a 2-shot scum Pardoner could have been very useful in late-game), and try to convince people I was town by the way I pushed my reads (on players I thought were scum/town). As you can see my reads sucked as well so that didn't help :/ | ||
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Probulous
Australia3894 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:32 layabout wrote: Not knowing your teammates is a tremendous advantage if you want to survive. Minions should not have given a rat's buttock about secretly figuring out who their team mates were. This game gave mafia the tools to play to their town game's. The biggest real issues for minions were the anonymous PM's, BM's stealing power and the difficulty of having to play out a very long game. I agree but no one seemed to do that really well. If you are going to go solo, you have to make yourself seen. Otherwise you are of no use to mafia or town and are unlikely to survive till the end. | ||
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gonzaw
Uruguay4911 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:36 austinmcc wrote: 2 were caught by the snooping, Q-bert-Z was caught by his own posting. I agree that QBertz was "found" before by sloosh's PM incriminating him. But my PM basically confirmed him as scum since I heavily implied I was talking about him in it (and people figured it out). So before QBertz was "likely scum" but after my PM he was "almost confirmed scum" I agree that the role was strong, but we were also lucky in that I never caught a town message. Like, see rasta outing himself because of the double Chez message. Seemed like we would very well might have lynched Chez the next day, outing a nosy employee AND lynching a townie, just because of the town messaging roles. Honestly, in 8 checks we caught 1 scum message between the two of us. Had we caught a few town, especially town messages that were trying to fake mafia instructions...could have led to a couple easy mislynches and the outing of a few power roles. Just didn't play out that way. Yeah, had you not checked risk that would have happened. Again, shitty luck/circumstances there, I was getting happy that maybe we could have gotten 1 or 2 misslynches (in Chezinu/Katina) before losing  Zealos didn't look lovely, but he was so entirely uninvested in the game before that message, and remained so entirely uninvested afterwards, that he didn't feel like a better lynch than other options. Plus, once mafia started flipping, they'd ALL been pushing Zealos. Made it really easy not to lynch the guy when every scum wanted him lynched. Yeah but scum didn't know each other. I thought Zealos was scum but "bussed" him to save Palmar (which didn't work). | ||
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austinmcc
United States6737 Posts
On August 01 2012 10:37 gonzaw wrote: At least in my mind, some major differences were that Zealos claimed VT, while slOosh claimed to have a sort of odd delay mechanic and have shot the CEO. Easier to think the disinterested guy is a VT than the vig who shot the CEO on questionable reasoning that had never been presented in thread.Couldn't you say the same thing about sloosh? I mean, his claim didn't "make sense from a scum perspective" either (was just bad), and his play wasn't that incriminating (compared to Zealos at least). Yet Zealos was never considered as lynch at all yet sloosh was always "almost confirmed scum" ever since he claimed. Of course, unless I'm missing something that made people think "Zealos is town" and "sloosh is scum" that didn't have anything to do with their "dumb claims/reactions". Also, again, as the game wore on, people that flipped scum had pushed Zealos. Nobody had really been talking about slOosh from what I remember. | ||
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