EPTAt this point of the game, it seems like everyone aside from Jingle, JieXian, Zen Man and Evulrabbitz are up for scrutiny. I've already given my thoughts on Mackin, and I'll be going through other filters throughout the night/day.
Newbie Mini Mafia XX - Page 3
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
At this point of the game, it seems like everyone aside from Jingle, JieXian, Zen Man and Evulrabbitz are up for scrutiny. I've already given my thoughts on Mackin, and I'll be going through other filters throughout the night/day. | ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
| ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
And when I attempted to tell the power roles to claim one at a time, again no one else had brought up the idea. And sure, you can again say that it is common practice and common sense to avoid claiming until required to. Yet, these kind of reasoning can be applied to dismiss almost any pro-town actions. This is the problem with your current play, and why people may have problems with your defense. "Pro-town actions" includes hunting for mafia, which you haven't been doing. This has already been mentioned but I'd just like to stress that telling the medic not to claim does not count as pro town. It's obvious that the medic shouldn't claim; they can't give us information on town players, so we have no reason to get them to claim to prove their credibility. In fact, an attitude like yours, where you just take a town victory for granted without trying to actually hunt scum, creates the optimal environment for you if you are mafia. You wouldn't need to worry about being found out if no one's actively looking for you, and you would only need to worry about getting lucky with your roleblock/shot and dodging a DT check or track. Also, you were not the first to ask whoever got roleblocked to come forward with that information. Release was, on page 26: On July 08 2012 10:39 Release wrote: anyone got roleblocked, claim now. is it possible that we have more than 1 DT/Medic/miller/tracker? | ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
| ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
| ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
| ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
Also: On July 11 2012 10:37 Evulrabbitz wrote: Oh man I asked that question like a jackass. It should have been vanilla townie or miller. Anyway, we got the answer. Building a case against BassInSpace is pointless. It will all come down to WIFOM. There is probably nothing that can stop us from lynching him. He will die either today or tomorrow. If it's because he is scum or he is very unlucky, that is what we are about to find out. Not lynching him now would be stupid. So what you are basically saying is, there is not enough evidence to actually lynch me other than WIFOM? I would then argue that if you can't find evidence against me, you should probably look for scummy behaviour somewhere else, since I'm still a town vote that you will lose should you lynch me. I am obviously going to side with Hapa here; whenever you choose to lynch me, you have a 50% chance of lynching mafia. However, by actually keeping me alive and looking for actual scummy behaviour from others, you are only increasing your chances of winning. I'm not gonna do the math, since others have already done it for me. As for who I think could me mafia? Mackin has been lurking. He could be taking everyone else's complacency as an excuse to not do anything. He is eager for my lynch simply because I've been "hinting" to lynch him. However, can anyone say that my pressure on Mackin was not justified (again, he himself admitted I had valid points against him)? I was not the only one who was suspicious of him, and I had to poke him a few times before he would finally clarify his position, since it seemed everyone else was focusing on other players while he was suspected but never prodded. The previous points made about YourHarry still stand (at least until he actually starts scum hunting again). His eagerness to jump on my lynch without considering alternatives also isn't a point in his favour. | ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
I am obviously going to side with Hapa here; whenever you choose to lynch me, you have a 50% chance of lynching mafia. However, by actually keeping me alive and looking for actual scummy behaviour from others, you are only increasing your chances of winning. I take it you disagree with what I said above and still want to lynch me? What I am "basically saying" is that any case against you and any case for you will come down to WIFOM. There is no way to prove that you are townie without saying "He might be acting to seem townie" just as there is no way to prove you are scum. The whole point of mafia is to use logic to find scum. According to your logic then all of mafia is WIFOM. If you think the 50% chance of me flipping mafia when you don't even have anything against me other than a potential false positive is worth the risk, I'm not sure how I can change your mind. Lynch me and you will have given the mafia another day to live, and lost a town vote. | ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
That quote you have from me is also taken out of context. At the time, we were discussing your vote being the decider (ie late) and that is why you couldn't be cleared just for voting Hopeless. My vote was early. However, it's a moot point now: everyone who voted Lazer is either dead or confirmed town. | ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
| ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
I said in this post: On July 07 2012 00:43 BassInSpace wrote: But as it stands now, it comes down to your meta analysis of hopeless vs his scummy posting in this actual thread. I value finding scummy posting as a scum hunting tool far more than I value meta. You don't think the points brought up by Hapahauli paint Hopeless in a bad light? And just as an aside, I'm not saying I think you're scum. I just want to understand why you think your meta analysis (which you admit yourself is an issue because he hasn't flipped in the other game) is more valuable than actual posts in this thread. The fact that he first says that Hapa's arguments (including the meta analysis) made him vote for Hopeless, but then says that the sole reason he voted for Hopeless was the outright lie, is quite confusing. That I value scummy posting more than I value meta. Does that mean I think meta is completely useless? No, I never said that. I made that point because Jingle was relying only on meta in his defense of Hopeless. This was a case of scummy posting vs meta. When I agreed with Hapa's case, it was because Hopeless was lying and dodging. The meta that Hapa used was in conjunction with the scummy posting. So again I state; I voted for Hopeless because of the lying and dodging, but the meta case against him helped a little as well. I was perfectly willing to vote him even without the meta case. This post is in response to Mackin who talks about BassInSpace's arguments against him (Mackin). BassInSpace has consistently been trying very hard to not make enemies. He has hold a case against Mackin almost the entire game and now he apologizes for pushing him. Dammit dude, show some decisiveness. You have been suspicious of him all game, yet you do not want to commit to a lynch on him. For that matter, you don't really want to lead a lynch on anyone even though you have so many suspicions. I did not apologise for pushing him. I apologised if he felt that I was being unfair/overly aggressive in my push. As for my pressuring him and then letting it go, you'll see that my main point against him was his being indecisive. When he actually had a stance on players, I eased off of him, but pretty much everyone here can see he hasn't been around lately, which is why I started posting about him again. This isn't indecision, this is updating my reads based on his behaviour. I criticised hi reads for being indecisive because they were full of "well he could be scum because of A but he might be town because of B ". This post is regarding my little "I am townie" trap which he kinda fell into. Now I said my vote was being deciding in a sense it was not for Lazer, which is to some degree true. The other who opposed this stance (can't remember who) did it because they didn't realize I could vote for Lazer and switch the vote. BassInSpace's mistake was one based on logical conclusion. He says that if Lazer had flipped green(had I chosen him), I would be very, very suspicious, even more so than the person who pushed the case. Now personally I believe that every vote is as important as the other, as in any other "election" (don't know if right word here, but still). It might just have been a late update (which is actually was ^^). If Lazer flipped green, my logical conclusion would be to target the person who lead the case against Lazer, not the one who happened to throw the last vote (which has just as much worth as the other). This is yet an attempt for him to keep as many balls juggling as possible. I'm not the only one around here who thinks that very late vote switches like that can be suspicious. Just look at the opinions of others in this game and the whole TL mafia forum. We'll just have to disagree about this point. Now Bass votes for Zen_Man until he posts his defense. So we all kinda sit around waiting. This is how everyone acted so nothing suspicious. The rest is not showing anything suspicious (the whole of page 3 on his filter) apart from maybe this post. Now he conveniently brings up his backup case against Mackin, says he was never really pressured so he had to "poke" him. Now if you found him so suspicious why didn't you lead a case against him? Your answer is always "because other were more suspicious" and you point out quite a few times. Yet you have not actively tried to lynch the more suspicious person, you have more or less agreed with everyone else while keeping slight suspicions on other people. As for Mackin, again, read what I posted earlier in this reply. I pushed him because he was being very indecisive, then he actually posted his stance, so I backed off of him. If I had continued hounding him on my original points after that point in time, I would have been guilty of tunneling him. Also, I have been lynching the more suspicious person, (started on TMG, switched to Hopeless after all the evidence against him, started on Mackin and switched to Zen Man because he seemed to refuse to defend himself properly) I can't help it if I'm active when most others are not. By the time I can come on to check the thread, a lot of my suspicions have already been posted. | ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
On July 12 2012 18:50 Evulrabbitz wrote: If you think the same about votes, I can agree here. However this was not a voteswitch. I just did a late update. The Jingle and YourHarry discussion (in which I laid my vote) was already over a long time ago. I never said you think it is completely useless. Just you putting words in my mouth to make your defense sound better makes we want to lynch you. So this attitude is basically "I have some things that point him to scum and some to town, but I won't pressure him because if I do he might slip scum". How else can someone be overly aggresive in a push? Isn't it a good think to make see how people react to pressure? Explain to me how that would've been tunneling. You have never just had one person suspicious, in fact you have almost always had 3 (First TMG, Hopeless & Zen. Then TMG, Mackin, me and Zen. Then Zen, mackin and Release. Now YourHarry&Mackin) people being suspicious to you. I don't see how pushing your long-lived case would've been tunneling. His contradiction in the Hopeless case was that he votes on Hopeless based on Hapa's arguments and partially the meta analysis. Then he says the only thing of value is that Hopeless outright lied. Regardless, what I am trying to emphasis is that BassInSpace voting for Hopeless does not make him townie in any sense. When BassInSpace started posting against him, Hopeless had already lied, and as I mentioned, would most likely die within 3 days tops. He saw this mistake and actively started gaining townie points, which is actually something BassInSpace has done consistently. He has more actively tried to gain townie points than lynch who he thinks is suspicious. And when I talk about actively lynching, I am talking about pushing a case and adding to it. BassInSpace hasn't really done that. At all. Rather he has been trying to get on everyone's good side. My point regarding meta is that even though I'm not a fan of it, it further proved that Hopeless was mafia because it tied in with the scummy posting in this thread. Here's the actual quote from my post I am not paying much stock to the rest of Hapahauli's case (as I pointed out already) because I don't think those were enough on their own. Also, as much as I actually dislike heavy use of meta, it just adds to the 3 main points that I consider are the most damning in Hopeless's case. If Hapa's case against Hopeless was based purely or very heavily on meta, then I would not have bought it. So this attitude is basically "I have some things that point him to scum and some to town, but I won't pressure him because if I do he might slip scum". How else can someone be overly aggresive in a push? Isn't it a good think to make see how people react to pressure? What are you talking about? I did not pressure him once, I pressured him twice, and he reacted to the pressure by giving us his stance, which is what I wanted. "I won't pressure him"? I did, and he reacted. I said to further pressure him based on my points against him at the time (ie his indecisiveness) would be tunneling. He gave me his stance, pressuring him further based on indecisiveness would have been repeating myself at the time. you have almost always had 3 (First TMG, Hopeless & Zen. Then TMG, Mackin, me and Zen. Then Zen, mackin and Release. Now YourHarry&Mackin) people being suspicious to you. I don't see how pushing your long-lived case would've been tunneling. When did I ever say you were suspicious? Saying you were not confirmed town was effectively saying you were a null read. Confirmed town is not the same as suspicious. As for the rest, I am not "juggling" cases. Just because there is a major case going on, doesn't mean that other players get a free pass. This would just give mafia the chance to hide while everyone focuses on the one player, and we would lose valuable discussion time. TMG was my first suspicion before the case against Hopeless had been brought up. It was early day 1, and I found behaviour which I thought was suspicious. Others found his play suspicious as well. If I was spreading unfounded suspicions on players then I would agree, I am purposely "juggling", but I was not. I then decided Hopeless was much more suspicious and decided to vote for him after Hapa brought his points up. Zen hadn't said much at all at that point (lurking), and he hadn't posted those reads he promised. Again, suspicious play. I kept going after Zen because all he later posted was a summary, followed by absolutely nothing at all for quite awhile. Again, given this suspicious play, I believe I was justified in keeping up pressure on him. The same applies to Mackin; he had not provided us with a proper decisive view on players, so I kept going. I've been after those 2 for justified reasons. As for Release, what can I say? I felt he was a bit suspicious, but not more suspicious than Zen Man at the time, On July 08 2012 13:05 BassInSpace wrote: Regarding Release: If anything made him look fishy to me, it's his willingness to jump on Lazer (again) based on what is obviously a typo (to put it in Release's own words against Lazer awhile ago, "grasping at straws"), and the vote switch to Jingle without much explanation at all. The post he made listing detective claims could also have been an attempt at making a useful post without actually being all that useful, but this could be stretching it too far. I don't believe the tone of the post indicated that I found him all that suspicious, though you may argue it's "juggling". As for YourHarry, I did not like it at all that he had been focusing so much on blue roles and not doing any scum hunting at all. This is why I got suspicious of him originally. Again, I believe that all of my suspicions were justified. I have not been "juggling" cases/suspicions for the sake of being vague or having back up lynches. | ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
As for the rest of your post. Townies can accidentally play scummy. You seem to base your point on that this would be false. Your defense is that you had substantial evidence. While that might be true it does not tell us you are not mafia. I honestly don't see how leading a case against a townie using substantial evidence is seen as pro-town play. The result is a mis-lynch. Now I do not claim that this makes him Mafia. I am saying to me, this does not clear him. But we don't know he is townie. Saying that town players can accidentally act scummy as a defense of said players just gives mafia the chance to hide behind this sort of cover. So I don't agree with what you are saying here. In fact, when I come to think of it. Hapa's whole case against Mackin is based on information which was available to you when you decided he has posted his stance and was fine. Feel free to prove Hapa wrong. Otherwise my point that you are actively pursuing townie point rather than actively pursuing lynch of suspicious of players. Not true. It has been awhile since he said he would post freely, as Hapa pointed out. I did not know at the time it would be this long. He has since gone back to lurking, and only posting when prompted to, as pointed out by Hapa. His most recent substantial post now is about how he won't even defend himself, and how it's easy for blue players and detective confirmed townies to get by without posting much compared to how hard it is for him. He also seems to want to lynch me purely because I pressured him earlier. If he wants me lynched he should come up with a case, or at least address some of your points against me Evul. I think he has been hiding behind the newbie card this whole game. As for Mackin's indecisiveness, yes, I let off at the time because he finally gave us his opinion on he is actually mafia. However, since then, he has not done much at all once the pressure is off. His lurking and refusal to post unless prompted (and even his most recent post effectively didn't say anything new) still makes him scummy to me. If you still think I'm juggling cases then there's nothing I can say to change your mind I suppose. WIth that, I will be voting Mackin. I think he's scum and I know I'm town, so I won't allow my lynch to go through. ##Vote: Mackin | ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
| ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
| ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
| ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
I decided not to gamble on roleblocking one of DT or tracker and killing the other night 2 because I felt that it would be safer to guarantee a kill on the tracker and hope the DT either didn't check me, or best case scenario, checked the miller. I was banking on Evul checking YourHarry or Mackin so that town wouldn't waste time with building cases against them, or checking Hapa to absolutely confirm his town status, which some were questioning. It would've come down to me vs 1 other unconfirmed townie in the end if this had worked. On July 13 2012 10:42 Hapahauli wrote: As previously stated, I really didn't like your case against Bass, and thought it took him out of context quite a bit. Upon re-reading his filter, I think there were a lot of stronger points against him that I missed on my initial readthrough: When he bussed hopeless, he left himself open to change his mind - he said he wanted to see Hopeless's defense before he locked in his vote. Him never voting or FOSing Mackin was a really strong point that you didn't mention until I brought it up later. He hounds Mackin without ever committing to his case. I actually always leave myself open to changing my mind regardless of alignment in all the games I've played (well, only 3 I guess), since there is such a lengthy period of time between when i go to sleep and the deadline. An unfortunate situation when playing mafia on the other side of the world. I also never FOS anyone because I figure if I'm posting evidence and saying that I feel someone is suspicious, then that's already a FOS in itself. I don't actually recall seeing FOSs anywhere other than newbie games. I keep it out just so there isn't bolded text all over the place, but it's just my preference. | ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
YourHarry I'll be honest... I didn't even bother working out the probabilities :p What I ended up doing just felt safer. | ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
| ||
|
BassInSpace
Australia165 Posts
| ||
| ||
