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Pick Your Poison Mafia - Page 12

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Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
May 31 2012 22:48 GMT
#221
sooooo, back to inactivity?
I wanted to play this more like C9++ #2 again, I already have a game where I'm all over the place...

If hiro is not answering the question goes to everyone else: What do you think about the GF vote?
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
slOosh
Profile Joined October 2009
3291 Posts
May 31 2012 23:54 GMT
#222
Uhh - as someone who uses icons to identify players, I might get Toad mixed up with the other devourers :/

Anyways, Hiro's GF vote is fine. His explanation shows that he thought it through (false positives? I didn't even consider that), makes sense in the context of not knowing what role might be picked, and furthermore it is something that knowingly invites attention on himself which he is handling fine.
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
May 31 2012 23:55 GMT
#223
I guess that means
##vote HiroPro
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
May 31 2012 23:55 GMT
#224
lol got ninja'ed
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
HiroPro
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2624 Posts
May 31 2012 23:56 GMT
#225
On June 01 2012 05:29 Toadesstern wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2012 05:03 HiroPro wrote:
On June 01 2012 04:32 Sbrubbles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:
On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles.


Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this?



Show nested quote +
On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.

Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between.


A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this.


I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0?


On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:
Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW

Choose Godfather, I did.


Show nested quote +
On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:
The mafia already know the voting results, fyi.

On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.


Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.


Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about.


That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote?
Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing.

So wtf?


Maybe it was clear to you that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker. It wasn't to me; not when the majority of people had not said what they were going to vote for. After Radfield made his argument on why Roleblocker was the best choice, I voted for roleblocker as I felt that Radfield made a good point on town gaining an advantage from knowing exactly what role mafia would get. I realized a little later though, that mafia would derive the exact same benefit if I followed Radfield's plan, so I changed my vote to the role that was worst for mafia in my opinion (godfather).

Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB.
Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk.
I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over.
If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd.


I have already explained to you why I didn't believe directly revealing my vote before day 1 was a good idea. Mafia needs to know what role is being given to them so they can pick appropriate roles to give to town. Town only needs to know what role was given to mafia when day 1 has started. This is why the encryption was a good idea; it locks people's votes so that mafia cannot change their "votes" in response to what they actually got, while town still receives the information that they need.

If you really believe that mafia will vote exactly like how you expect them to (1-1-1), then lol.

On June 01 2012 05:31 Radfield wrote:
Hiropro, if you were mafia, what roles would you give town?


Tracker, no matter what, only 1 member of mafia needs to carry out the kill and it's very unlikely that tracker will be able to track them, considering that mafia can choose who to send out for the kill. Additionally, since the role visit overwrites the kill visit, the chances of tracker being able to identify mafia by seeing them visit the person who died is even lower.

Medic, if roleblocker is what is expected.

1-shot cop, if framer or godfather are expected.

If the town team is much worse compared to the mafia team, vig instead of medic/cop.

slOosh
Profile Joined October 2009
3291 Posts
June 01 2012 01:07 GMT
#226
Gahhh!!! Please post people! From the looks of it we are just going to scramble to get a lurker lynch hours before the deadline.

Kurumi - thoughts on anything besides Radfield?

Sbrubbles - thoughts on Kurumi / Radfield?

risk.nuke & Navillus - please post something. thoughts on each other, Kurumi and Sbrubbles?
Barbiero
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Brazil5259 Posts
June 01 2012 01:36 GMT
#227
Hm, looking at Holy Roman, Kurumi seems to be much more careful on this game(ie. serious). Like wbg said, (if we take Holy Roman as Kurumi's town meta) his town meta is to troll. Anyone has more town games from Kurumi to analyze, and possibly scum games as well?

I also retract any "accusation" I may have had about Radfield. He seems clean enough for me atm.

Why are you guys not posting more? I hate lynching lurkers.
♥ The world needs more hearts! ♥
wherebugsgo
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Japan10647 Posts
June 01 2012 01:49 GMT
#228
##vote Kurumi

Kurumi is literally the easiest person on this forum to meta analyze. Any time he is town he's laid back and he doesn't care what he posts. He trolls, links videos, TF2 memes, etc. He is not cryptic as town but tries to be funny.

I think his more recent scum game was jubjub, but I didn't read much of it. There was a game I caught him this way when I was town, and then there was AC where I used that tactic as scum to nail Kurumi as 3rd party.

Navillus
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1188 Posts
June 01 2012 02:00 GMT
#229
Key: LQFSH-QASBA-YLXPQ-NRQIR-GHEZR-QKFLB-FSHPM-VLKAN-RYVSG-WXHHT-IKNVL-VMLNS

Vote: + Show Spoiler +
ZZZZZ GVRSG KTULX EDLNH OTJLU XGKUU XEIOK PKIWI IRUCV RDGQQ QBGFF
DQRJI ASFKU XLUBV AXNFG VETUB WWJRT JEHTD HOBHO PVHKB UZZZZ YYYYY


I voted roleblocker

Hiro I don't entirely understand, if you think mafia would choose tracker no matter what why choose GF, RB seems like the best role to give them if we're probably gonna get a tracker.
"TL gives excellent advice 99% of the time. The problem is no one listens to it." -Plexa
Navillus
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1188 Posts
June 01 2012 02:02 GMT
#230
Ninjaed EBWOP: I will at some point look at Kurumi's meta to check that out but if you're really sure of that it would be very helpful if you linked some of the posts in this game and some of the games in his meta that lead you to this WBG
"TL gives excellent advice 99% of the time. The problem is no one listens to it." -Plexa
HiroPro
Profile Joined March 2012
United States2624 Posts
June 01 2012 03:32 GMT
#231
On June 01 2012 10:49 wherebugsgo wrote:
##vote Kurumi

Kurumi is literally the easiest person on this forum to meta analyze. Any time he is town he's laid back and he doesn't care what he posts. He trolls, links videos, TF2 memes, etc. He is not cryptic as town but tries to be funny.

I think his more recent scum game was jubjub, but I didn't read much of it. There was a game I caught him this way when I was town, and then there was AC where I used that tactic as scum to nail Kurumi as 3rd party.



I find your case to be lacking. I don't see much difference between Kurumi's style this game and his style in L (the only normal game as town I could find in his profile). Posting pictures of Saddam Hussein and asking to be given double vig can hardly be considered serious.


On June 01 2012 11:00 Navillus wrote:
Hiro I don't entirely understand, if you think mafia would choose tracker no matter what why choose GF, RB seems like the best role to give them if we're probably gonna get a tracker.


Because I feel that tracker is a fairly worthless role, no matter what scum team has. It makes more sense to me to give them a role that is really only good against tracker than to give a role that is effective against almost anything.


Zephirdd

Zephirdd's posting is not that of town. During the poison voting phase, Zephir spends most of his time repeating what others say (read through the thread at this phase). He offers very little insight of his own.

On May 31 2012 04:54 Zephirdd wrote:
Guys remember to vote on the voting thread!

On May 31 2012 09:34 Zephirdd wrote:
Kurumi and wbg need to vote

On May 31 2012 10:32 Zephirdd wrote:
On May 31 2012 09:34 Zephirdd wrote:
Kurumi and wbg need to vote


lol nvm im stupid

wbg and someone else needs to vote >_>'

On May 31 2012 11:21 Zephirdd wrote:
I thought it was a whisky bottle judging from the flavor.

Hey guys Kurumi already made a case!
Discuss.



Posts like these are posts for the sake of posting. Everyone posts like this from time to time; but for Zephir, these posts are a huge part of his filter.

[B]On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:
Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say.

Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes.
Discuss.


This is about as wishy-washy and noncomittal as you'll ever see in a "accusation" (Zephir's words). Not only did Radfield already address his initial refusal to do encryption, but Zephir is trying very hard to make an accusation without actually making one (3 different descriptions for Radfield's play in one line)"and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes."

Zephirdd has a lack of useful posting, a large amount of "filler", and avoids taking strong stances. He is scum.

Vote: Zephirdd
talismania
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States2364 Posts
June 01 2012 03:36 GMT
#232
wtf I was just halfway through typing up a FoS on zepphirrd. Funnily enough I found the latter half of his filter more damning. I'll finish and post it in a second.
talismania
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States2364 Posts
June 01 2012 04:01 GMT
#233
Two storylines this game -

(1) Kurumi - Radfield

(2) HiroPro

Both strike me as somewhat of red herrings, 1 more so than 2. I lean town on both Kurumi and Radfield. Kurumi because of how unnecessarily out-of-nowhere his case against Radfield comes, and how early. He obviously plays by a different playbook than most but that seems really uncautious of a scum move. Radfield I've never played with before but he seemed to be slipping into a town leader role like I saw in I'm a Cop You Idiot. I am surprised I haven't seen a case from him yet though. HiroPro's GF vote seems too good to be true. Now that we have Navillus's vote it seems like he actually was the only one to vote GF. Either the scum team really did 1-1-1, or he really was ignorant to the framer-roleblocker debate. And if the scum team did 1-1-1 then the other scum must have been similarly oblivious and that seems unlikely.

If both truly are red herrings, they're likely good things for scum to try and latch onto and drive momentum towards. With that in mind, consider zepphird:

First he kind of fishes around on Radfield:

On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:
errr there is more to say, actually. First,
Show nested quote +
On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:
##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/
?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj
ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b
##### End encrypted message

I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia.

I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline.


The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's.

Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say.

Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes.

Discuss.



Then he drives the HiroPro story a bit:

On June 01 2012 03:45 Zephirdd wrote:
Hiro, why would you pick Godfather, aka the NULL vote?



On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles.


Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this?


Then, after no one else is jumping on Radfield, he jumps off and hints at looking at Kurumi (who made the Radfield case):

On June 01 2012 10:36 Zephirdd wrote:
Hm, looking at Holy Roman, Kurumi seems to be much more careful on this game(ie. serious). Like wbg said, (if we take Holy Roman as Kurumi's town meta) his town meta is to troll. Anyone has more town games from Kurumi to analyze, and possibly scum games as well?

I also retract any "accusation" I may have had about Radfield. He seems clean enough for me atm.

Why are you guys not posting more? I hate lynching lurkers.


There's almost too much of it to be true but on first blow, to me, it is indicative of scum trying to get a feel for the way winds are blowing in the town, hence the FoS.

Kurumi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Poland6130 Posts
June 01 2012 08:23 GMT
#234
Yo wherebugsgo this is everything I can give you right now because I am in school. If anything , my meta is the same as this game http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=327685&user=68386
I work alone. // Visit TL Mafia subforum!
Radfield
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada2720 Posts
June 01 2012 10:26 GMT
#235
I'm not sure I like a Kurumi lynch today. I agree with bugs that his town meta is troll vs a scum meta of serious, but his accusation of me seems genuine. His whole case is based on him disagreeing with my opinions, and it would be really strange for a scum player to come that hard out of the gate in an accusation based solely upon feeling framer is a better pick than RB. I just don't think scum would have that kind of conviction, or base a case on it. I think the reason he is playing serious right now is because he saw something in my play that made him jump, and he followed it through.

I'm not completely against a hiropro lynch right now, though I need to reread his filter. He spent almost all of day 0 discussing the poisons, and a proportionally small amount talking about the roles. His reasoning for picking gf does seem legit, but that doesn't clear him in my eyes.

The problem right now is there was a lot for scum to discuss on Day 0, and a lot for them to potentially contribute to town, without actually helping town all that much.
Radfield
Profile Joined September 2009
Canada2720 Posts
June 01 2012 10:45 GMT
#236
Sloosh might actually be a decent lynch for today. Timid demeanor, not stepping on any toes, 'helpful' posts

Sloosh, you keep asking for other peoples opinions, but what are YOUR opinions? Radfield, Kurumi, risk.nuke, sbrubbles? Thoughs on those players?

On June 01 2012 08:54 slOosh wrote:
Anyways, Hiro's GF vote is fine. His explanation shows that he thought it through (false positives? I didn't even consider that), makes sense in the context of not knowing what role might be picked, and furthermore it is something that knowingly invites attention on himself which he is handling fine.


I disagree that hiropro's gf vote is 'fine'. While I agree that his gf pick has reasoning, it still doesn't make a lot of sense in the context of our day 1 discussion. There was almost no discussion of gf, and hiropro certainly made no attempt to sway any other players to vote for it. I'm not saying that makes his scum, but he certainly gets no credit for it either. The fact that he is the only gf player, when scum put themselves at risk by doing anything but 1-1-1, is very noteworthy. I haven't quite wrapped my mind around what it means if scum voted 2-1 though, and what we can possibly glean from that.

I do agree that we need more from risk.nuke though, but that's obvious at this point.
prplhz
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Denmark8045 Posts
June 01 2012 12:07 GMT
#237
I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.

Look at his day1 contributions. It's literally been two posts where he says he wants to lynch Kurumi because Kurumi isn't posting TF2 videos, nevermind that Kurumi did post pictures of Sadam Hussein and that Kurumi has played more seriously as town in his last few games.

Also, we need to remember that we can't have people are majority-1, if someone is at majority-2 then you have to agree with somebody else to hammer them. This is because scum has a secret vote and will just hammer any majority-1 if they are town.

I'm around, shoot me some questions if you want. I don't want to comment on everybody but I'll comment on some if people want me to.

I still want to lynch wherebugsgo.
http://i.imgur.com/M7t7egx.png
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
June 01 2012 12:09 GMT
#238
On June 01 2012 10:07 slOosh wrote:
Gahhh!!! Please post people! From the looks of it we are just going to scramble to get a lurker lynch hours before the deadline.

Kurumi - thoughts on anything besides Radfield?

Sbrubbles - thoughts on Kurumi / Radfield?

risk.nuke & Navillus - please post something. thoughts on each other, Kurumi and Sbrubbles?


Kurumi's case on Radfield is based on the assumption that roleblocker is hand-down the worst role to give mafia. Though I partially agree with him (I voted for framer), I don't agree it's an obvious thing. The way Rad argue it was decent and well-reasoned.

The case on Kurumi is partly based on his meta and I don't trust cases built solely on meta. What is interesting is that he makes his whole argument with basis on game mechanics (better yet, his opinions on game mechanics), which would be the "safest" way for mafia to be pushing for a mislynch at D1. It feels a bit scummy, but I'm still mostly null on him.

I'm very suspicious of HiroPro right now. His GF vote doesn't make sense to me from a town perspective and I'm not convinced on his Zephirdd push.
Bora Pain minha porra!
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
June 01 2012 12:10 GMT
#239
EBWOP: First line, second paragraph should read: The case on Kurumi is partly based on his meta and I don't trust cases built on meta.
Bora Pain minha porra!
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
June 01 2012 12:50 GMT
#240
I'd like to lynch into hiro or wbg at this point.

Hiro is basicly a claimed mafia who says "well yeah, but would a mafia claim mafia?" which just doesn't work for me anymore since PYP.
WBG is just plain ridiculous right now and he's way better as town than what we see here. Add that to what I mentioned earlier about him (not knowing the d0 cycle was only 24 hours, not posting) and I feel like wbg would be the best vet to lynch into if I can convince you to lynch into a vet :p
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
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