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@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke?
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On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke?
No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun.
Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win.
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On June 01 2012 03:33 wherebugsgo wrote:
Let's kill Toad and Kurumi.
Kurumi's meta is troll as town and play serious as scum. Obviously that makes him scum this game.
Toad is playing too carefully to be town. He has elements of his normal self centered-ness but usually he at least calls people out. Instead he seems to be worried he'll get called out for "not caring" like I was, when if he was town he'd probably not go that far.
I don't call out people early on the first 48 hours. I usually imply heavily what I want people to understand to check if people are thinking themselves or at least caring enough to ask questions.
And you find that if you read my posts.
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On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win.
So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic.
Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other.
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On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this.
I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0?
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On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about.
That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote?
Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing.
So wtf?
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On June 01 2012 03:50 prplhz wrote:
@talismania Your first example says "a bunch of Radfield posts about roleblocker" and those were what was convincing. Radfield clearly put a lot more work into thinking about the setup and making his thoughts clear than the framer supporters.
I think that day0 was horrible because scum looks to be in a position where they can screw with town and we can't know what they actually picked. I have no idea about your guys who picked framer, not because you picked framer because it's debatable whether or not roleblocker is actually the best role. The role itself is hard to use (but so is roleblocker) but fact is that scum can use it to spread confusion by arguing against any checks. Checks aren't very strong in the first place and now they're going to get even worse. Anyway, the worst thing is that in the position we're in now it looks like scum can screw with town even more, because we don't know what role they got and then they can just argue that they have roleblocker if that fits their agenda and that they have framer if that fits their agenda. This game is open setup for scum right now and semi-closed for town and I think that's a huge blunder by town. The most important thing we had to do day1 was agree and I seriously expected anybody who disagreed with roleblocker to make convincing arguments for framer but all I ever saw was "it's hard to use" and some poorly thought through "it will mess with claims" (I'm guilty of that myself) and both of those arguments were addressed.
Your second example, Radfield didn't convince me of anything. I have played with scum wherebugsgo and I know that he's usually a lot more active and he likes to have a lot of thread presence. Like I wrote in my reply, I chose to ignore that kind of meta because it's very useless with wherebugsgo. He's a strong and active scum player and he's a strong and active town player. Now he's not active. That's scummy.
Kurumi's case on Radfield didn't convince me. It was based on Radfield promising that he would explain something sufficiently in the beginning of day1, and then Kurumi called him scum because he didn't explain it right now. Kurumi felt that pushing roleblocker was a scummy agenda and that Radfield was making promisses he couldn't keep just to further this and I think that idea is far fetched. Additionally, Radfield did explain and I think it looks legit.
Actually I missed where you said he was scummy again in your reply to radfield when I read your post the first time - fair point. Before it seemed strange to me that it happened twice like perhaps you were trying to blend in and whatnot.
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On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other.
No. I am saying that Framer is crap and he won't frame the check most of the times anyway and that we need to QUESTION ALL CHECKS EVEN WITHOUT MILLERS,FRAMERS,GODFATHERS AND OTHER THINGS.
Second, it is not that hard if You actually try to hunt for blues, you know? You just need to actively do it.
Besides, THINK.
Radfield says that picking Roleblocker gives us chance to get a Medic. True. With GF/Framer the best picks are like Cop/Vig/Tracker, because they are bad/countered well. Buuuuuuuuut, then read what Radfield says later. He states that Medic is THE BEST role for Town. Then, why would Mafia pick Medic IN ANY CASE?
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Did mafia get voting results in real time or after the deadline?
I'm assuming it was after the deadline but if it was real time then I guess my encryption thing was pretty pointless.
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On June 01 2012 04:32 Sbrubbles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this. I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0?
On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about. That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote? Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing. So wtf?
Maybe it was clear to you that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker. It wasn't to me; not when the majority of people had not said what they were going to vote for. After Radfield made his argument on why Roleblocker was the best choice, I voted for roleblocker as I felt that Radfield made a good point on town gaining an advantage from knowing exactly what role mafia would get. I realized a little later though, that mafia would derive the exact same benefit if I followed Radfield's plan, so I changed my vote to the role that was worst for mafia in my opinion (godfather).
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On June 01 2012 04:53 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other. No. I am saying that Framer is crap and he won't frame the check most of the times anyway and that we need to QUESTION ALL CHECKS EVEN WITHOUT MILLERS,FRAMERS,GODFATHERS AND OTHER THINGS. Second, it is not that hard if You actually try to hunt for blues, you know? You just need to actively do it. Besides, THINK. Radfield says that picking Roleblocker gives us chance to get a Medic. True. With GF/Framer the best picks are like Cop/Vig/Tracker, because they are bad/countered well. Buuuuuuuuut, then read what Radfield says later. He states that Medic is THE BEST role for Town. Then, why would Mafia pick Medic IN ANY CASE?
Kurumi this is part of the reason I didn't buy into your argument that framer is the weakest for mafia under roleblocker.
Let's say mafia has roleblocker and town knows it, and gave town a cop.
Someone day 3 (so, 8 people left) says "I am the one-shot cop, I investigated X and X is town".
No one counterclaims. (If anyone does then it's a 1 for 1 trade which is fine).
Is there any reason to then question that check?
The same scenario can be drawn up for tracker, which would only be different in that there would be more info but it would be less indicative of alignment (not of the tracker but of those he checked).
This thinking is why I voted roleblocker, and why I'm surprised so many people went with framer (unless all the framer votes are mafia fakes).
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 01 2012 01:27 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 01:13 Radfield wrote:
I agree with that assessment prplhz, though I will say that I'm pretty sure I have seen bugs play this way before as town. I'm a Cop You Idiot comes to mind, but I'll have to double check.
Also, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum. No time to respond to me but you have time to defend your buddy it seems?
On May 31 2012 07:36 Radfield wrote:
I have time, but it is limited. I want to spend it filtering. How bout if I fail to do anything constructive then you can come at me for being scummy. I'll tell you what, you form nice coherent arguments you want me to respond to, and I will respond.
On June 01 2012 03:33 wherebugsgo wrote:
Let's kill Toad and Kurumi.
Kurumi's meta is troll as town and play serious as scum. Obviously that makes him scum this game.
Toad is playing too carefully to be town. He has elements of his normal self centered-ness but usually he at least calls people out. Instead he seems to be worried he'll get called out for "not caring" like I was, when if he was town he'd probably not go that far.
Agreed, Toad is acting a bit strange, and Kurumi is off the wall sure I am scum 24 hours into the game, simply because he disagrees with me.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 03:55 Kurumi wrote:
Radfield seemed to care too much about Town picking Roleblocker. He was all on guns to push it through, while supplying his argument with pure crap, like that we will be able to trust every check with a Roleblocker, which is obviously false. Yes, Roleblocker is the best role for scum, Radfield tried to sway the opinion of the people saying that Roleblocker will grant US best roles, which is not the case. Vigilante? Pfff. Doctor? Yeah, really. Child? As I said, it takes an insane man to pick that role. Tracker is the best role out there. One-time Cop sucks, but he CAN'T FAIL like Vigilante can.
Also his argument that "if we make it public that we are picking roleblocker it makes mafia pick those roles!"
and then "it doesn't matter if we make it public, they will pick same roles anyway" It was fishing for votes so they could pick good roles. RB is unlimited use and can be used actively and works versus every role.
@WBG
Obviously. Actually, my real scum meta is that I don't troll and try to lay down (I did troll a bit in my last scum game, though) I didn't troll in some games too.
So yeah, thanks for the finger point, now what?
Correct, if we knew a roleblocker was in the mix, our trackers and cops would be able to trust every check. In addition, we can trust every check 100% from confirmed cops and trackers(ie dead cops and trackers). Obviously I was never stating that we can trust every claim only that every confirmed check is 100%. Unlike now, where every confirmed check is pretty much garbage.
In a mini-game setup with no medics, mafia have basically no need at all for a roleblocker, because they simply shoot whomever they think is blue. It's a simple concept Kurumi, I'm not sure why you're struggling with it. Additionally, we only have 1 role that even has to worry about being roleblocked, because all our other claiming roles are 1 or 2 shot.
I would argue that framer is far and away the best role for mafia in this setup as it immediately makes two of our roles next to useless. Whereas roleblocker only has the potential to significantly hinder a tracker.
You're argument for me being scum is basically that you disagree with me. If there is more than that then please let me know.
Did we actually just catch scum by hiropro voting godfather?? Time to filter!!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 01 2012 05:05 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:53 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other. No. I am saying that Framer is crap and he won't frame the check most of the times anyway and that we need to QUESTION ALL CHECKS EVEN WITHOUT MILLERS,FRAMERS,GODFATHERS AND OTHER THINGS. Second, it is not that hard if You actually try to hunt for blues, you know? You just need to actively do it. Besides, THINK. Radfield says that picking Roleblocker gives us chance to get a Medic. True. With GF/Framer the best picks are like Cop/Vig/Tracker, because they are bad/countered well. Buuuuuuuuut, then read what Radfield says later. He states that Medic is THE BEST role for Town. Then, why would Mafia pick Medic IN ANY CASE? Kurumi this is part of the reason I didn't buy into your argument that framer is the weakest for mafia under roleblocker. Let's say mafia has roleblocker and town knows it, and gave town a cop. Someone day 3 (so, 8 people left) says "I am the one-shot cop, I investigated X and X is town". No one counterclaims. (If anyone does then it's a 1 for 1 trade which is fine). Is there any reason to then question that check? The same scenario can be drawn up for tracker, which would only be different in that there would be more info but it would be less indicative of alignment (not of the tracker but of those he checked). This thinking is why I voted roleblocker, and why I'm surprised so many people went with framer (unless all the framer votes are mafia fakes).
No, mafia know what roles are in the game, and presumably can fake claim a role which does not exist(therefore not getting counter-claimed). However, once a single blue role flips, our second REAL blue role will counter claim the cop, so the mafia will get busted eventually, just not right away.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other.
Tracker, in my opinion, is the weakest town role overall (worse than 1-shot cop), but it's worse, not better, against a roleblocker than against a framer around. Framer is very unlikely to mess up a tracker early on (though yeah, it's possible), but if a roleblocker is around mafia have the option of discrediting the tracker by leaving him alive and roleblocking him (if he didn't manage to convince town of his check). He'll be still alive but roleblocked, which means chaos for the following day. Also, remember that framer is only 2 shot.
+ Show Spoiler +On May 31 2012 19:02 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 11:25 Zephirdd wrote:errr there is more to say, actually. First, On May 30 2012 20:16 Zephirdd wrote:##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/?b644rKEia/eqd8/fjaSJjh8ft+Ga2gbCDQcJnm8znA4gWzcXOVmbpSKHpLLxCLj ZCIAhqK1EmupAZoQfMKGr/kI1rDlO2chS6Vn8sr52uJtCPk=?64b ##### End encrypted message I'll release the key after the deadline. This is the role I voted for mafia. I suggest that everyone do this, so we know which role mafia has after the deadline. The key is "zephirdd" and when using it to decrypt, the phrase is "I picked Framer for the mafia". Kurumi's reasonings convinced me much more than Radfield's. Also, I don't like that Radfield was initially against registering votes pre-deadline. The Rad I know doesn't just "skim" by what people say. Still, his town meta is "too town to be town", and here is just... normal town. Or rather, near null. That makes him red in my eyes. Discuss. Then you don't know me very well Zephridd  I skim read all the time, and I do mean all the time. The strength of my play is that I go back and reread many times, and filter everyone many times. Knowing when you can skim and when you need to pay attention is something every good player utilizes, particularly when time is short. Yesterday I had points I wanted to make, and not enough time to do it in(particularly in the morning, when I didn't even finish my post). I obviously picked roleblocker. Anyways, the reason we publicly wanted roleblocker is that we desperately want a medic in this setup, and mafia knowing they are getting roleblocker dramatically increases the odds of us getting one. Consider that pretty much every single mini game ever has the potential for town to have a medic/jailkeeper/etc, the reason for this being that even the threat of having a protective role means mafia can't just shoot whomever they want, whenever they want. You guys are talking as if mafia having the roleblocker is dangerous because they can roleblock any blue claims, but that makes no sense. If we have no medic, mafia don't need to roleblock, they just shoot claimers in the face. If there is no medic in the setup, then roleblocker is an almost completely useless role for mafia. Think someone is blue? Shoot them in the face. Someone claims? Shoot them in the face. The reason that we have a much better chance of getting a medic by choosing roleblocker is that cop and tracker are far and away the worst roles for town in this setup, especially considering that mafia might get gf/framer. Tracker is especially bad, because of the fact that mafia get to choose which one performs the kill, and will always pick whomever is the most town, making the role almost useless unless the tracker holds his abilities until lategame. By picking roleblocker and mafia knowing it, they will likely shy away from giving us the information roles, and instead give us 2 of Vig/Medic/IC. However even if they give us one of those roles and the tracker, the one role they will probably give us is the medic, as I don't think most people realize how important it is to have a medic in a small setup. Again, having a medic is very important for us, because a medic doesn't even have to make a save and can still turn the tide of a game by forcing mafia to shoot away from the most obvious/strong townies. Picking roleblocker gave us the highest chance of getting that medic. Did players who became power roles KNOW they were going to be power roles before day 1? Or were they given the exact same vanilla PM as all the other players
@Radfield, I was thinking about this before my vote. If they knew we were going to get medic, they'd want a roleblocker (to prevent town going into follow-the-confirmed-townie mode), but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around. Them knowing the we picked roleblocker doesn't make it that they'd give us a medic. Tracker/vig or tracker/cop are perfectly reasonable combinations. A Roleblocker is essencially a second "blue snipe" for them, because they'll have a really good idea of if they got their block right. This about this: If cop doesn't claim day 2 they'll know they got their N1 block right. If a tracker claims but isn't convincing, they can do as I said above. If they gave us vig, then 1 kill in the night means they blocked correctly and would eliminate the vig the following night.
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On June 01 2012 05:11 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 05:05 talismania wrote:On June 01 2012 04:53 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:25 prplhz wrote:On June 01 2012 04:18 Kurumi wrote:On June 01 2012 04:15 prplhz wrote:
@Kurumi The difference is that roleblocker only works if he actually hits a blue, framer works regardless of whether he hits a blue. If we get a tracker check, then we're going to argue about it now because there are people who will say "he was framed". Before, we could just trust it if we trusted the guy it came from and he wouldn't claim if he wasn't willing to put his life on the line anyway.
Radfield explained why medic is a good role, not only can he save townies, he will also discourage scum from shooting into townies that the medic might protect and one successful protect would extend the game by a full day which is awesome. Vigilante is a role that can pretty much confirm itself just be breadcrumbing his shot before he shoots and that's really good too, especially if he actually hits scum.
You need to calm down and take deep breath. Roleblocker isn't a horrible role, it's actually the best role. Even if it was horrible then why on earth would Radfield put himself out there like that to push scum agenda like you claim he is doing.
What do you think about wherebugsgo, Navilus and risk.nuke? No. Framer does not work. It has a slim chance of working. Framer is a useless role. Try predicting the dt/tracker check. Have fun. Roleblocker on the other hand, if You get two blue reads off You can rb one guy and kill the other. Win win. So you are saying that we can trust all checks even with framer around because it only has a slim chance of working? Framer is a role that works even when they don't use it successfully, just like medic. Your second argument "if they get two blue reads in a day" then they can neutralize them both with roleblocker. What are the odds of them getting two correct bluereads in one day? Even if they did, without roleblocker they could just kill one and then kill the other. No. I am saying that Framer is crap and he won't frame the check most of the times anyway and that we need to QUESTION ALL CHECKS EVEN WITHOUT MILLERS,FRAMERS,GODFATHERS AND OTHER THINGS. Second, it is not that hard if You actually try to hunt for blues, you know? You just need to actively do it. Besides, THINK. Radfield says that picking Roleblocker gives us chance to get a Medic. True. With GF/Framer the best picks are like Cop/Vig/Tracker, because they are bad/countered well. Buuuuuuuuut, then read what Radfield says later. He states that Medic is THE BEST role for Town. Then, why would Mafia pick Medic IN ANY CASE? Kurumi this is part of the reason I didn't buy into your argument that framer is the weakest for mafia under roleblocker. Let's say mafia has roleblocker and town knows it, and gave town a cop. Someone day 3 (so, 8 people left) says "I am the one-shot cop, I investigated X and X is town". No one counterclaims. (If anyone does then it's a 1 for 1 trade which is fine). Is there any reason to then question that check? The same scenario can be drawn up for tracker, which would only be different in that there would be more info but it would be less indicative of alignment (not of the tracker but of those he checked). This thinking is why I voted roleblocker, and why I'm surprised so many people went with framer (unless all the framer votes are mafia fakes). No, mafia know what roles are in the game, and presumably can fake claim a role which does not exist(therefore not getting counter-claimed). However, once a single blue role flips, our second REAL blue role will counter claim the cop, so the mafia will get busted eventually, just not right away.
I just realized that as well and was about to ebwop myself. Regardless I doubt there would be a fake claim for those reasons exactly except for maybe late in the game when it was close to mylo/lylo and scum were going for some sort of weird way to guarantee they make it there.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On June 01 2012 05:13 Sbrubbles wrote:
@Radfield, I was thinking about this before my vote. If they knew we were going to get medic, they'd want a roleblocker (to prevent town going into follow-the-confirmed-townie mode), but it doesn't necessarily work the other way around. Them knowing the we picked roleblocker doesn't make it that they'd give us a medic. Tracker/vig or tracker/cop are perfectly reasonable combinations. A Roleblocker is essencially a second "blue snipe" for them, because they'll have a really good idea of if they got their block right. This about this: If cop doesn't claim day 2 they'll know they got their N1 block right. If a tracker claims but isn't convincing, they can do as I said above. If they gave us vig, then 1 kill in the night means they blocked correctly and would eliminate the vig the following night.
My thinking is that tracker/vig or tracker/cop vs a roleblocker is really unbalanced in favor of town, so if they wanted to give us that, more power to them. I hadn't considered them being able to realize if they'd successfully blocked a cop or vig, but that's a good point, and does give the roleblocker role more potency.
Either way, us landing 5-5 right now on Framer vs Roleblocker is fantastic as it has the potential to basically give us a list-check later on down the line.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hiropro, was it obvious to you yesterday that the vote was between framer and roleblocker?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
nvm, just reread your post.
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On June 01 2012 05:03 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:32 Sbrubbles wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 04:02 HiroPro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote:On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote:
Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? Show nested quote +On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote:
All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker.
Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this. I'm not buying this, Hiro. It was pretty clear from the thread that it was a discussion between framer and roleblocker. If you thought it was better to give mafia the framer, instead of roleblocker, why would you vote for the 3rd option? Also, why did/what made you change your mind about about your vote partway through D0? Show nested quote +On June 01 2012 04:39 Toadesstern wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote:Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did.
Show nested quote +On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote:The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. On May 29 2012 03:32 kitaman27 wrote:
The game will begin with a 24 hour selection phase. During this phase, the mafia team will select two roles for town. Additionally, the town will privately vote via PM on a single role for the mafia. If there is a tie, a random role from the tied roles will be selected. The selected roles will not be revealed, however the mafia team will be provided with the voting results.
Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake.
Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about. That's got to be a joke. Godfather? Why?!?! It was clear the decision would be either RB or framer at some point and you chose to pick Godfather and completly wasted your vote? Someone explained (I think risk?) d0 that the only solution to not screw up as mafia is to pick 1-1-1. 1 guy votes RB, one guy votes framer, one guy picks GF because that way they add 1 to each thing and don't change a thing. So wtf? Maybe it was clear to you that the votes would only be between Framer and Roleblocker. It wasn't to me; not when the majority of people had not said what they were going to vote for. After Radfield made his argument on why Roleblocker was the best choice, I voted for roleblocker as I felt that Radfield made a good point on town gaining an advantage from knowing exactly what role mafia would get. I realized a little later though, that mafia would derive the exact same benefit if I followed Radfield's plan, so I changed my vote to the role that was worst for mafia in my opinion (godfather).
Well you've got to agree that it's looking weird that you are apparently the only one who voted GF when we talked about how 1-1-1 is the only way for mafia to not screw up and all the talk d0 was either about RB > framer or about framer > RB.
Why didn't you talk about this? This is essentially the same thing I was talking about in PYP when talking with risk.
I have no problem with people telling me they think otherwise and that we should change a "plan" but I do have a problem with people ninja-voting without telling us screwing us over.
If what you said is reasonable (and I don't think it is) you should have tried to explain to us why what you said is reasonable. Yet here you stand, voting GF and it's apparently not important enough to you what role mafia gets because you haven't told us so and you still voted GF and not, like everyone else either RB or framer. That's really odd.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Hiropro, if you were mafia, what roles would you give town?
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EPT
