EPTAlso, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum.
Pick Your Poison Mafia - Page 10
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Also, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum. | ||
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
But wherebugsgo isn't generally this lazy as town either, so we've got a wherebugsgo who is going against his town and his scum meta. Meta isn't something that can be used against wherebugsgo in my opinion, so I'm just going to read his filter and see if it's scummy or townie and I think that he looks like he doesn't care about this game at all and that's scummy. He's not the only one I'm looking at though if you're worried about that. @Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On June 01 2012 01:13 Radfield wrote: I agree with that assessment prplhz, though I will say that I'm pretty sure I have seen bugs play this way before as town. I'm a Cop You Idiot comes to mind, but I'll have to double check. Also, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum. No time to respond to me but you have time to defend your buddy it seems? | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
Laughing Jack Encryption: ##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/ ZZZZZ GTOWD APBBB UCOUL KFCJU KKUER GWVNB AAGIP UKTTS TXOTO UARUM BUSUL WHIIK SNUBT CUNGL AMKNU KIUPA KAESW LRCWN VFWGM AZZZZ YYYYY ##### End encrypted message Decrypted: Roleblocker | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On June 01 2012 01:25 prplhz wrote: [...] @Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something. I'm saying that I have the same read about multiple people right now. It could be on purpose, it could be frustration and it's more of a sign of lazyness than an indication of scummyness right now. | ||
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slOosh
3291 Posts
On May 31 2012 07:55 slOosh wrote: My mafia role PM encryption + Show Spoiler + ZZZZZ XXJTH KKXJL XFJBP FSOJH UJIOT BLWKH AXLFN BQPXQ LFELT VUJHI RXQWC KPFOV ONBAR MLJAI IAUJW NUOTW JQJVE FRMBF CQBAX LJHWR XCTUW EAFGF WSFEO CAQLG EFBKC CLMZZ YYYYY Key: DOYLU-KZYJU-AXOQQ-WRLSJ-QRVCW-WVVPI-ECRTY-CEKKW-CDVNL-HBWJL-UILIR-SMVEE Translates to -> Picka da framer. Right now "9" votes are in, and since mafia know the vote tallies (why wouldn't you bring it up beforehand Sbrubbles?) it looks like we will be uncertain what PR mafia has unless the remaining three people claim voting for the same role. That said I don't think vote analysis will do much because of that fact - even if mafia lie it won't be exposed until late game when we would probably have flipped the role by then. The remaining players should still claim their votes, it won't hurt to have. Framer - (5) 1. Sbrubbles 2. Kurumi 3. Zephirdd 9. wherebugsgo 12. slOosh Roleblocker - (4) 6. prplhz 7. talismania 10. Radfield 11. risk.nuke Didn't claim - (3) 4. HiroPro 5. Navillus 8. Toadesstern <- You forgot to post your role vote. This town is suffering a severe case of inactivity and no doubt scum are happy to coast on that. risk.nuke I would like to hear more from you. Do you still think Radfield is scum after his explanation? Also, On May 30 2012 23:18 risk.nuke wrote: Just a thought, if scum votes anything but 1-1-1 in a secret vote it opens up the posssibility for them to get busted for lying. I don't understand - did you think the poison applies to the selection phase? Right now you've shown minimal interest in anything. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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slOosh
3291 Posts
What are your thoughts on Sbrubble's "withholding information" on mafia getting the voting results? I totally forgot about that part but it seems like he knew all along and that would have helped us consolidate roles harder early on. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
I checked that section like 5 times to be sure on how to vote, who has to vote what and stuff. Remember when people asked wether mafia gets to vote together with town about the mafia roles? Or the poison? I thought early on we don't have a poison on d1 because we only vote at n1 as in, first poison on d2. I read the OP once every game and when questions like those appear I check the parragraph again. I was frankly quite shocked that wbg didn't know it's only a 24h cycle because again. Those are the things I keep checking again and again to make sure I understand the details. I'd take the "didn't know about the 24h"-thing much more as an "not caring about the game"-argument than the fact that people are posting so little right now. | ||
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talismania
United States2364 Posts
What is it about radfield that is so convincing to you? (1) First, On May 30 2012 20:01 prplhz wrote: Since the mafia role selection is done in PMs and we're not going to have the voting results or the role itself revealed, scum is free to do whatever. There are only two ways to know for sure what role mafia got and that is 1) to get majority+3 voting for a single role and 2) flip the scum who got the role. talismania's encrypted vote idea should be implemented because it's never going to hurt and it will create some content that we can use for analysis. Regarding the roles: Godfather is the safest because scum can only use it in two ways (have Godfather carry out night kills or not), this will make for the least confusion among potential town blues. Framer is the worst to give them because it will allow scum (and also townies and blues) to question all checks made by cop/tracker. Role blocker is also potentially useful for scum, especially in connection with claims (and counterclaims and fake claims) which I think could become very important this game. Will anybody get told if they are roleblocked? I think it's more beneficial for town to reach majority+3 consensus on a role than it is for mafia that we do it. So I think we should all agree that Godfather is the safest thing we can do because it allows for the least manipulation by scum and the simplest logic always applying for town. The only down side is that potential cop can't always trust town checks but that's very much acceptable. I don't think scum will focus much on the role that they get when they consider the roles that they give us. Can scum pick two of the same role to give to town or do they have to pick two different roles? As for the poison, my thoughts have already been stated. We should try to eliminate poisons that get stronger as early as possible. Majority+1 and secret vote are the best candidates for this. Here are my thoughts (list is malleable): Use first: Majority+1, secret vote, secret ballot Use in the mid game: Mayoral election, lynch lock Use at LYLO or late game: No flip, 24 hour lynch Some people already said that we will be at even number players all game long baring medic saves, but vigilantes could also screw this up. Also, the no flip is not only alignment, it is also role which may suck since we cannot know if we killed the Godfather or just a goon. @Kurumi Could you give us the reason behind your thoughts? Then Bunch of radfield posts about roleblocker being the weakest scum role Followed by On May 30 2012 22:31 prplhz wrote: Okay I'm convinced by Radfield. Either we get investigative roles we can trust, or we get roles from vigilante/medic/child pool which is pretty sweet. Both child and vigilante can easily confirm themselves and a medic save would extend the game by a full day. Anyway, I'm voting for role blocker. I was a little worried about role blocker interfering with power roles but the chance of even hitting power roles isn't that big and we shouldn't rely on them too much anyway. (2) First, On June 01 2012 00:38 prplhz wrote: Well, let me say that I am very disappointed in wherebugsgo so far. It doesn't look like he cares about town winning this game at all. In his first post he asks host a question, but he never got an answer to that question even though I got an answer to my questions that I posted later. That didn't bother him at all. His participates in the discussion about poisons and his thoughts are alright but it doesn't look like he cares at all what role we pick for mafia. This is bad because if we end up with split wagons then we cannot know what role they have and they'll end up being able to argue for any role. 1-shot claims and has a green check? They can argue that he checked the godfather. Red check? They can argue that he was framed. They'll be able to push a chaotic agenda way easier than if we know what role they got. Scum knows town roles and the only way town can know scum role is if we get majority+3 or a flip but wherebugsgo doesn't seem to care about majority+3. He doesn't seem to mind if the votes are split evenly across roleblocker+framer at all. He looks like he doesn't care at all about what happens this game and I that's scummy. Then On June 01 2012 01:13 Radfield wrote: I agree with that assessment prplhz, though I will say that I'm pretty sure I have seen bugs play this way before as town. I'm a Cop You Idiot comes to mind, but I'll have to double check. Also, bugs standard scum play is NOT generally ambivalence and coasting. I would say he's one of the most active scum players on the forum. Followed by On June 01 2012 01:25 prplhz wrote: Yea this doesn't look like his typical scum play. But wherebugsgo isn't generally this lazy as town either, so we've got a wherebugsgo who is going against his town and his scum meta. Meta isn't something that can be used against wherebugsgo in my opinion, so I'm just going to read his filter and see if it's scummy or townie and I think that he looks like he doesn't care about this game at all and that's scummy. He's not the only one I'm looking at though if you're worried about that. @Toadesstern What do you think about it? You are acting as if my post had "Toadesstern" in place of all the "wherebugsgo"s. You are saying that you want more content and that the thread is in a bad state, and then you say that you're not going to do anything until everybody has been in here and told you their vote. That's pretty self contradictory behavior. Give me something. _____________________________ Finally, What do you make of kurumi's case on Radfield? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Kurumi's meta is troll as town and play serious as scum. Obviously that makes him scum this game. Toad is playing too carefully to be town. He has elements of his normal self centered-ness but usually he at least calls people out. Instead he seems to be worried he'll get called out for "not caring" like I was, when if he was town he'd probably not go that far. | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
Choose Godfather, I did. On May 31 2012 21:56 Sbrubbles wrote: The mafia already know the voting results, fyi. Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake. Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
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prplhz
Denmark8045 Posts
I think that day0 was horrible because scum looks to be in a position where they can screw with town and we can't know what they actually picked. I have no idea about your guys who picked framer, not because you picked framer because it's debatable whether or not roleblocker is actually the best role. The role itself is hard to use (but so is roleblocker) but fact is that scum can use it to spread confusion by arguing against any checks. Checks aren't very strong in the first place and now they're going to get even worse. Anyway, the worst thing is that in the position we're in now it looks like scum can screw with town even more, because we don't know what role they got and then they can just argue that they have roleblocker if that fits their agenda and that they have framer if that fits their agenda. This game is open setup for scum right now and semi-closed for town and I think that's a huge blunder by town. The most important thing we had to do day1 was agree and I seriously expected anybody who disagreed with roleblocker to make convincing arguments for framer but all I ever saw was "it's hard to use" and some poorly thought through "it will mess with claims" (I'm guilty of that myself) and both of those arguments were addressed. Your second example, Radfield didn't convince me of anything. I have played with scum wherebugsgo and I know that he's usually a lot more active and he likes to have a lot of thread presence. Like I wrote in my reply, I chose to ignore that kind of meta because it's very useless with wherebugsgo. He's a strong and active scum player and he's a strong and active town player. Now he's not active. That's scummy. Kurumi's case on Radfield didn't convince me. It was based on Radfield promising that he would explain something sufficiently in the beginning of day1, and then Kurumi called him scum because he didn't explain it right now. Kurumi felt that pushing roleblocker was a scummy agenda and that Radfield was making promisses he couldn't keep just to further this and I think that idea is far fetched. Additionally, Radfield did explain and I think it looks legit. | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On June 01 2012 03:36 HiroPro wrote: Key: KWUIR-KMBIV-QPGAY-CZTNK-BZSVT-ERHIS-YFULP-ZUYOK-GOKYP-TLBON-PIDIC-AAFXW Choose Godfather, I did. Meh, I guess the encryption wasn't really that useful then. I thought it'd make it so that mafia have to guess on what votes to fake. Kurumi: So what I get from your Radfield case is that you think he is scum because he tells everyone to pick Roleblocker even though it's a good role for scum? But I don't really follow that; while I think roleblocker is a strong role for mafia also, Radfield's argument was not bad. And I don't see this contradiction that you are talking about. Radfield seemed to care too much about Town picking Roleblocker. He was all on guns to push it through, while supplying his argument with pure crap, like that we will be able to trust every check with a Roleblocker, which is obviously false. Yes, Roleblocker is the best role for scum, Radfield tried to sway the opinion of the people saying that Roleblocker will grant US best roles, which is not the case. Vigilante? Pfff. Doctor? Yeah, really. Child? As I said, it takes an insane man to pick that role. Tracker is the best role out there. One-time Cop sucks, but he CAN'T FAIL like Vigilante can. Also his argument that "if we make it public that we are picking roleblocker it makes mafia pick those roles!" and then "it doesn't matter if we make it public, they will pick same roles anyway" It was fishing for votes so they could pick good roles. RB is unlimited use and can be used actively and works versus every role. @WBG Obviously. Actually, my real scum meta is that I don't troll and try to lay down (I did troll a bit in my last scum game, though) I didn't troll in some games too. So yeah, thanks for the finger point, now what? | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On June 01 2012 03:54 HiroPro wrote: Because I felt that it's the weakest role, as it's only really effective against tracker (since gf can send kills himself). GF is immune to cop, but it doesn't protect the other members of the team and it can't introduce false positives. And since cop in this setup only has 1 shot, they will most likely be using it on someone who feel has a strong chance of being scum and a positive result is pretty much a confirmation then without framer. And of course it does nothing to any of the other roles. Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? | ||
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HiroPro
United States2624 Posts
On June 01 2012 03:59 Zephirdd wrote: Great, and why didn't you provide these arguments during the day we had to actually choose GF? Why did you just let the framers/roleblockers go and not fight for your argument? Why keep it down and suddenly pop out with this? On May 30 2012 11:52 HiroPro wrote: All of the mafia roles are "anti-blue" roles and pretty useless otherwise. Now out of the three mafia roles, roleblocker looks to be the most powerful to me, as it is effective against all of the blue roles (except for innocent child, against which nothing is really good). Yes, the shots get refunded for vig and cop but in a game of this size, if you get roleblocked it's likely you won't even live the next night. For that reason, I think everyone should only vote for either godfather or framer and should not consider roleblocker. Also, I don't think anyone should share exactly what role they are voting for, as mafia can than pick the blue roles that are worst against that role. So instead, when discussing what role to give mafia, I think everyone should just say the role that they don't want people to vote for (as it's too strong), still leaving open the possibility of two roles that they might choose between. A lot of mafia's power in this setup comes from them being able to pick roles for town that are easily countered by the role they receive. If they don't know exactly what role they are getting, they can't do this. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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