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Are millers self aware, can Doctors protect themselves, can watchers and/or millers shoot?
And. Here. We. Go.
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While I agree that Toad's plan was inherently flawed, I think there were some good points..
Millers should claim, and we should force them to shoot. Later we can sort out any false claims etc... but it gets us started in the right direction. I agree there could be more than 1 miller so the self shooting is a bad thing and will have us ending up with 2 wasted lynches.
I am worried that our day 1 shot is going to happen within 5 minutes of daytime as people try to make a point to get themselves remembered for shooting X as soon as the game started for teh LOLz. Lets step away from this, while anyone can kill I think we need to at least start off with in-thread voting before the shot is fired, and if we can have the millers doing it until they have all shot so much the better.
If we can get the miller claims into the open (assuming there are some) and then have them do our designated shooting for us for the first cycle or two we not only gain some information on them, but also on the discussion about who they should be shooting.
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On June 11 2012 22:54 Toadesstern wrote:I just don't know if we can really figure out millers easily with a possible GF that can shoot and maybe a framer around. Remeber what the framer was like from PYP for example: Show nested quote +Framer:
You can target one target per night and make them appear as whatever role and alignment you wish. In addition, you may plant incriminating evidence on a player, making them appear to have visited target player at night. Yeah that was a special framer but neither do we know if we have a tracker nor do we know if the hosts considered something like that as well if they chose to give us a tracker (especially if it's tracker INSTEAD of DT) Not sure if Millers should claim at all. That's going to be confusion and I'm not sure we're able to figure stuff out easily yet, maybe even wasting a couple of cycles to figure this stuff out when we could just play normal. With DTs being not sane 100% there won't be a situation where the DT claimes d2 and says "sup guys I found red in XXX" because he can't be sure of his sanity. I'd say with the possibility of framers, Millers are best to shut up and just play normal. If a DT happens to check them, whatever. That's not a tell for the DT at all until he sees multiple people flip and the chances for a check on a miller are quite low to begin with. Yeah that's speculation but the whole point of making millers claim is flawed if there are framers and we just change the one problem with another one that is about equally likely to give us some issues.
No, we don't need to sort them out yet we can worry about that later but they do need to claim now. I am not worried about getting them confirmed as town, I want as much information in towns hands as possible to work with and then we go from there.
Allow me to quote are illustrious host Ace from the recent Policy Lynch thread
2.) In a setup with self-aware Millers, anyone that is caught by a Detective and claims Miller should be policy lynched. A self-aware Miller is Town, and on Day 1 should claim Miller immediately. They might still be lynched but this gives the Town a much easier path days ahead.
With that in mind let me categorically state I will shoot anyone claiming miller after our starting phase, as there is no need whatsoever to keep it hidden from town. We need to get the millers outed anyway so out investigative roles don't waste time on them yet. Claiming miller doesn't make them confirmed but it at least removes that option from the mafia's playbooks when they get detected and they try and keep us from lynching them. Also the moment we lynch the GF any remaining ones who have fired are pretty much confirmed anyway (though nearly anyone who had fired would be at that point as well).
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EBWOP Are = Our, bah newbie mistake 
I didn't see it in the OP, is there a post requirement? I assume not for days, since they could end so quickly, but for nights it would be nice.
Otherwise we may need to policy shoot them since they won't get removed from the game for not not posting at all.
Last thing, I say we vote for 48 hour days, I can't see this ever helping the Mafia, only town. We can end it early by shooting sooner, which will probably occur most of the time but if we get to LYLO (SHLO??) we may be best served by having more time to review the game before making that final shot.
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On June 12 2012 01:05 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:38 marvellosity wrote:On June 12 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 00:22 MrZentor wrote:With that in mind let me categorically state I will shoot anyone claiming miller after our starting phase Is anybody else bothered by this? There's no reason you should "veto" a decision because you can shoot. Regardless of the topic, it stunts discussion, which is really scummy. the point is that every mafia can "just" claim miller AFTER someone got a red check on them (obviously not takling about d1) and therefore we can't allow people to just claim miller if in danger because that could be a legit way for mafia to get out of the way and make them look townish. Eh... even if we didn't agree for millers to claim day 1, then doing so hardly makes someone look townish. That's what you look at their play for, to see if it makes sense or not. exactly. what I'm saying with my post before that. We need to play normal instead of focussing on millers because frankly with framers and gfs running around I don't see an easy way to figure them out (easy = not normal analysis, but instead something that works right off the bat). So what I meant and is that a miller claim afterwards should not be a reason to consider someone a townie. If you make someone claim he obviously got pressure and therefore you considered lynching / shooting him prior to the claim. A miller claim should not be treated as alignment indicating either way, which results in shooting them if you thought he's mafia prior to the claim.
Exactly, Millers can claim now (what I prefer as it gives us information now), or they can not claim (as Toad prefers as the confusion may stifle real discussion). Later in the game someone we are suspicious of is checked by a cop and shows red, he then claims miller. He still gets shot as the time for claiming has past and it gives mafia an out.
On June 12 2012 01:10 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 01:03 chaoser wrote:
@gonzaw I'm surprised you're asking millers to claim and then shoot day 1 when it's just as good to have millers claim day 1 and then you yourself volunteer to shoot day 1.
Since you yourself did not volunteer immediately to shoot on day 1, I was wondering if you'd like to start us off by shooting on day 1.
In this game, to find 3 out of the 4 mafia, I feel like it's pretty easy. We just force the person we think is the most suspicious to shoot the person THEY think is most suspicious. If they can shoot, they are not one of the three regular mafia. The only anti-town that gets out of this is the GF and the SK but they should be easy to narrow down when we combine this method with regular analysis.
If they can't shoot, then they are either mafia or blue.
In terms of blue roles, I actually don't think they matter that much this game and I'd totally be ok with any blue role that gets suspected and put on the spot to shoot to just claim. RB is nerfed this game to only be able to roleblock the same person on every other night so that means mafia can't just nilly willy claim blue and then when they don't die to mafia gunfire for a few days, get off scott free.
So basically it goes discussion--->decide who is "most suspicious"--->force them to shoot who THEY think is most suspicious--->if they can't shoot, they will be forced to claim--->we then decide if the claim is valid or not--->shoot if we don't think the claim is valid. Nice plan, the 3 scum get 3 free town deaths with this.
Scum (except GF) can't shoot so no they don't. However I don't know about the plan of having them shoot whoever they think is most suspicious. If they are town and are in that spot they have most likely been playing sub-optimally (the reason they are in this spot to begin with) so having them make the call seems like it could wind up with us losing more obvious townies. Maybe they shoot the second most suspicious person. Its like a duel where the 2 most suspicious people have to shoot it out and if one is mafia 3/4ths of the time he doesn't have a gun to shoot back with.
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You guys do understand I was referring to shooting people claiming miller in later stages of the game future and not ones claiming now (which i was for). I just point this out since FreelanceSatan's quote below references wanting to shoot the claiming millers.
also why did chaos Rastaban threaten to shoot a claimed miller when like 90% of thread is indicating that they approve of the plan on some level??
What i was saying was
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wow how did my post get so mangled...
What i was saying was basically Millers can claim or not claim now but once the game progresses their is no use in claiming miller as at that point they should be shot.
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On June 12 2012 02:49 FreelanceSatan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:40 rastaban wrote:You guys do understand I was referring to shooting people claiming miller in later stages of the game future and not ones claiming now (which i was for). I just point this out since FreelanceSatan's quote below references wanting to shoot the claiming millers.
also why did chaos Rastaban threaten to shoot a claimed miller when like 90% of thread is indicating that they approve of the plan on some level??
What i was saying was ok that makes much more sense if your not talking about millers claiming now and trying to disrupt the plan. I still think you should try to avoid dealing with absolutes such as "if a miller claims later shoot him" we cant be 100% sure one way or the other so it would be best to take it on a case by case basis. But your right.. if a miller is claiming later into the game just to save his ass it should definitely be noted that it looks significantly worse than if he claimed now and we should act accordingly.
You are correct about dealing in absolutes, after reading chaoser's post I realized that it makes much more sense for us to designate who does the shooting anyway.
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On June 12 2012 05:47 FreelanceSatan wrote:
wait....so there is no lynch?? wtf.. how is town gonna stand a chance if we cant use pressure votes to scum hunt..
This is precisely why we have to vote on who gets to shoot and who they shoot at. If town shoots Willy Nilly we are doomed before we start. This is precisely the reason that even if we have ROL do the shooting, we still need to vote on who he shoots and not have him decide. Our votes on who gets shot are what we need to analyze and evaluate scum and townies.
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On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle.
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 24 hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping.
It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will.
So much right about this post, I agree completely. Combating disorganized townies is top priority and our best chance at victory. Once day rolls around we can start deciding who to shoot and by whom.
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On June 12 2012 11:52 talismania wrote:
Those that have played with him before, what's RoL's personality? If he's a risk.nuke type then I think that explains his behavior surrounding his claim. If he's a qatol type, then I'd say he's a traitor role or something just trying to stir the pot. I can't see a fake miller claim as GF when GF could just as easily and more safely claim VT.
I was looking back at previous games of his and at least in the one I was reviewing, he didn't come across as a Qatol type, as I was wondering on his play style as well. I personally don't find his claim any more suspicious than a lot of other activity going on. Lets wait till day phase and see if their are any other Miller claims once, we are sure they have all had ample time we can reevaluate his claim based on how many other people claim. But if he is the only one claiming miller by the end of the day that will be incredibly strong evidence in his favor. If not then we can start addressing the veracity of their respective claims.
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On June 12 2012 13:21 gonzaw wrote:
Derp days last 24 hours (thought they lasted 48).
Anyways people, be sure to chime in and post your thoughts on RoL and marv's "case" against me please.
Dirkzor I want your opinion the most.
There is a vote for 48 hours, I don't know if it has past yet but all townies should have voted to extend it.
Did the Extension pass?
Regardless thanks for not shooting now, if it is a 24 hour day then we should wait a minimum of 18 hours if possible to give everyone time to discus the target (and shooter) I am headed to bed now so please, please, everyone don't let it be night time when I get back tomorrow morning! There are still a lot of people that need to start posting, it was night phase so they are given some leniency for that but now is the time to start disusing, also any other Millers should claim now if you were waiting for day.
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On June 12 2012 13:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If we don't have a target for gonzaw to shoot by, say, the 20 hour mark into the day, I say we should shoot gonzaw. I volunteer to be that person.
If anyone shoots before that time I say we kill them tomorrow.
I support this!
Allow me to repost one of the most coherent post made in this whole thread:
On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle.
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 2412 (minimum, though I prefer 18) hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping.
It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will.
Everyone pushing for an early shot right now is incredibly scummy, it is in towns best interest to not shoot immediately until we can review and make an informed post. There are a lot of people who still need to contribute making only 1 liners or no video posts, they need to start posting CONTENT.
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The following People need to post, they are very inactive, and if they have said anything it is only a few one liners.
risk.nuke
Kenpachi
payl
gonzaw I don't see him for mafia, but I don't have a problem with making him shoot someone else if it will lessen the distracting discussion on him. So far the biggest arguments against him have been that he supported ROL and that he claimed He hadn't seen a Mafia fake a miller claim before. To me he doesn't seem scum at all, and most of the case is hinged on defending ROL, If ROL is really a miller then all the discussion seems moot.
ROL Controversy, We still have no other Millers claiming, and until we get some other contenders I am very inclined to believe ROL. There should have been 2 hits last night (mafia & SK), and only 1 went down. Unless someone else claims to have been protected I see no reason to disbelieve this. I lean towards an SK 1 shot power as if it is reuseable it would be way over powered, I think we keep an eye on him and see how things progress. If the Mafia tried to shoot him, and an SK tried to remove the gun, then I think we should hold off on killing him for a bit since there must be a reason so many people tried to hit him last night. Again if more Millers come forward then I agree we should re-evaluate the claim but for now I think his play seems town and we should hold off a final judgment for him.
Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on?
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On June 12 2012 22:09 Dirkzor wrote:Well as I also wrote in the Policy lynching thread I'm all for setting up rules like these that enforces a townlike behavior. So no arguement there. But MZ does have a point that whoever shoots are most likely a townie. So we shouldn't just kill them... A point that was no way clear from Kita's post. In other news: I think MrZentor might be scum. Go look at his filter. He very clearly have been following the thread. But he haven't really put any thought in what he have posted. He seems to jut be posting in order to increase his filter. He also seemed to get very defence for no appearrant reason during his only real response in the thread: Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:30 MrZentor wrote:
He was trying to copy my reason for being suspicious of Rastaban, but he confused Rastaban with chaoser.
FAIL Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:34 FreelanceSatan wrote:
I just woke up bro. And im not trying to "copy your reason" im agreeing with it. highlighting it and supporting it.
You dont like when people support your reads?? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 02:35 MrZentor wrote:
There's nothing wrong with copying as long as you do it accurately and add on your own ideas.
I have an irrational fear of being misquoted. >.< So any reads MrZentor? Anything?
Thanks for bringing this up, I forgot about him. He really needs to start posting content, and he does seem very scummy. I will try and get some time to review some of his other games to see if he is always so useless to town.
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On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote:Show nested quote +If you really want to shoot me or something at least wait 24 hours into D1 so you don't waste the whole day and so we can put some sense into you. His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. Show nested quote +I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler +What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not?
Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there).
I think they did it like this:
1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not
2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun
Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public):
Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list.
That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun).
This is the beauty from the plan:
Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues....
...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game.
Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day.
Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made).
So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group.
Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK.
Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use:
1)Their medic saves on the gunners
2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners
1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them
2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later.
That was the way it would work in the 1st game.
Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit
What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it.
Also, something I found along the way. Show nested quote +Pretty sure
1) We'll run out of things to say or just go in circles
2) Ace will probably put a limit on like 48 hours and then we just "no shot" and move straight to night
3) Someone will probably get trigger happy and shoot anyway.
I want gonzaw to shoot. We already had 24 hours of discussion since night 0 happened, we've got our suspicions. Let's go gonzaw, chop chop. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen.
Regarding the plan of guns and not guns claiming, don't you think even the mafia without guns will claim they have guns (maybe 1 won't) so we just end up shooting all our blues for a few days? We don't know how many blues town has so we won't even know if mafia is the group. I don't see how that plan helps anything it isn't like the goons are going to admit they have no guns. We end up have some people claiming to have guns, who don't have guns, but how do we decide who it is? We are back to square 1 but now they know which townies have guns and who doesn't so they can shoot acordingly. We just give them even more information while we are just as confused as before.
Unless I am missing something this is a very bad plan, plus we should worry less about plans and more about about posts. I agree Chaoser trying to push the shot so fast was very very bad. Chaoser, why did you want to stifle so much discussion?
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On June 13 2012 00:24 chaoser wrote:I'm ok with gonzaw shooting me right now.
Wow that's an incredibly bold claim. Are you that good at picking out scum, because I got a townie vibe so it is quite shocking for me to see someone so certain. Maybe I am being too sure of things I shouldn't be. I had him pegged as stupid Towney for the giant plan that failed due to not even reading the OP. I like to think that ROL is actually the miller so his defense of him seems like something mafia wouldn't due (sticking their neck out for someone else), especially after they apparently tried to hit last night (Missing KP and no one else claiming to have been hit).
I haven't seen you give strong arguments for his guilt though(maybe I missed it)... are you swayed by Marv's reasoning or do you have your own?
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I say we have Gonzaw shoot payl. We find out if Gonzow has a gun and if he does, we off the single post Smurf. I have a feeling at least one if not more of the mafia are in the lurking crowd intentionally or not and it is causing confusion in the Mafia ranks.
If gonzaw won't fire lets let chaoser kill him.
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On June 13 2012 03:22 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:20 wherebugsgo wrote:
Nevermind on the supersoft bit. His most recent 2-3 posts make it far less likely.
We should have Zentor shoot gonzaw. Very happy with this
I concur with this statement.
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Well he also messed up the formatting as well, but does it matter, refusing to shoot and not shooting are the same thing correct? I mean I think we all believe he can't shoot or he would have, that is nothing to hide. The real questions is, is he Scum or is he Blue?
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@gonzaw But the whole point is that you can't shoot. I thought you could shoot, so now that you can't and you have this many accusations on you it is time to kill you. Claim your role if you are town.
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On June 13 2012 03:51 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:37 rastaban wrote:
Well he also messed up the formatting as well, but does it matter, refusing to shoot and not shooting are the same thing correct? I mean I think we all believe he can't shoot or he would have, that is nothing to hide. The real questions is, is he Scum or is he Blue? He claimed Miller on Night 1. Then in the morning he claimed he had his gun taken away. He needs to shoot. If he does, and nothing happens, then it means he either had his gun taken away, or he was lying about being a miller, same thing as what we were at. If he can shoot, then he lied about having his gun taken away, and I'd say he's scum then. The whole point of people claiming miller was to get them to shoot as soon as possible to confirm themselves. Then he claims he can't shoot anymore, and introduces the worry of there being a role that can take away our guns. There's no reason to make that lie as town. This is to make sure he's at least not lying about not having a gun.
Wait I was referring to Gonzaw shooting himself, ROL is the one who claimed Miller... I think that is a great idea too as if he was GF claiming Miller he would still have his gun. If this is what you were referring to earlier I misunderstood and it is a great idea!
On June 13 2012 03:45 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:38 rastaban wrote:
@gonzaw But the whole point is that you can't shoot. I thought you could shoot, so now that you can't and you have this many accusations on you it is time to kill you. Claim your role if you are town. I don't want my role to create more chaos. If I'm being shot (someone puts ##Kill: gonzaw in the thread), then I'll claim my role. But until then it will only serve to distract people (they'll start thinking "Oh what if his claim is real? Oh what if we let him live and bla bla bla?"). In the off-chance I survive this (not likely), then scum won't know my role either. rastaban, if it came down to it, would you shoot me? You say "so now that you can't and you have this many accusations on you it is time to kill you...."So, it is time to kill me because I have accusations against me...but not because you think I'm scum? Also, me having a gun or not had nothing to do with your "town" read on me.
Sorry gonzaw I won't tell you if I have a gun or not, Scum is already trying to snipe our VEs as it is, you will just have to wait and see.
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On June 13 2012 04:08 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 04:08 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On June 13 2012 04:05 marvellosity wrote:
RoL will (attempt to) shoot gonzaw and that's that. Great plan by Wiggles. RoL already tried to shoot and it failed. With totally wrong formatting. Come on man.
On June 12 2012 15:39 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I'm heading to bed, but here you go
##kill(##Kill): marvellosity
If you have type ##kill(##Kill): player in the thread and you can't actually kill someone I will just ignore it.
Close enough I think
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Is the format in the OP "##kill(##Kill): marvellosity" a valid format for shooting someone or does it need to b eone of the 2 methods deconduo posted?
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On June 13 2012 04:14 marvellosity wrote:
why are you asking the mod a question he already answered?
Bah your right, I thought it was answered before he fired, please ignore my stupidity there as I just looked at Ds filter and didnt go back and look at it in the thread.
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On June 13 2012 05:36 VisceraEyes wrote:
Although it's a good read if anyone wants to know how to play SK LIKE A BAUS.
haha, I was wondering the other day if SKs have ever won and then I happened upon that game...
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On June 13 2012 07:15 Toadesstern wrote:
What about shooting payle instead of gonzaw?
If he's truely a DT I can live with him being alive and mafia can't because they don't want him to get more checks because the moment we see his flip we know wether or not we can trust him.
If he's mafia and survives n1 we shoot him tomorrow?
I like this plan a lot, and with him being macho there isn't even WIFOM on if he is protected. I am guessing they won't hit him either way, but it gives us another check the moment he flips tomorrow.
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On June 13 2012 07:28 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 07:27 Toadesstern wrote:
Actually wait about the RB. We started with n0. Did anyone claim being rb'ed ? wherebugsgo claimed RBed
So if you are Rbed, no one else better claim to have been RBed.
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[/green]While we are at it, Did mafia roles get assigned or did they get to pick who got what rolls? (like choose who is GF)[/green]
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EBWOP
While we are at it, Did mafia roles get assigned or did they get to pick who got what rolls? (like choose who is GF)
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On June 13 2012 21:21 Dirkzor wrote:
Oh... I don't seem to be able to conprehend stuff this game... =(
Sorry kita! Still doesn't make sense with Kenpachi...
maybe those people requested replacements and Kenpachi didn't...
On June 13 2012 21:55 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 12:07 MrZentor wrote:
I don't see how anybody could have thought Gonzaw was scum after that claim.
The balls of steel was the sort of detail which sum doesn't have the time or energy to fabricate. In set-ups like these mafias usually get fake claims or can request fakeclaims or at least ask what the PMs are like. So really the balls of steel thing was a null because if he was mafia he would have had the same information imo. Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 12:16 MrZentor wrote:
I thought you guys would have waited at least an hour before the end of the day before shooting, so I thought I would be on at the end. -.-
Sorry the deadline is something like 8am for me and it was already 2am. I'm not going to make it until deadline or even 4 hours prior to deadline, ever.
Deadline shots according to when the shot is fired right, so now the deadline will be 2am so you will be there for the next (or at least close to it)
This is why looking back now the most pro town move would have been to push super hard for a 48 hour day, it was mentioned by a few people but no one really pushed it (including me), we ended up talking about plans etc... and then not enough people voted for it so we lost that initiative. It looks like we have people playing from a lot of areas so it is hard to get everyones input in a single cycle....
Any way, time to get back to the task at hand. Lets review this mis-lynch... I have the feeling it was heavily pushed by townies as the mafia could just stay inactive but it is worth reviewing. Also time for everyone to reread his filter, even if at the end it is mostly directed at me. I think I have been playing very pro-town so far so hopefully people can see that it was a townie desperately trying to help but placing suspicions in the wrong direction.
A lot of time night is best used for reviewing and discussion is for the day but in this setup we are never guaranteed a day so it is important to discuss during the night.
Also Supersoft being confirmed (or nearly so) as town is really nice, I would love to hear more from him on what we should do next. If Gonzaw was right about him being a key player and he has been checked we can hopefully learn a lot from his discussion on the topic at hand.
I need to do more re-reading with the information at hand but currently I am seeing lots of green posting, maybe I am naive but not a lot of people are registering as scum to me yet so as I said I really want the lurkers to start posting. Risk, Payl, Kenpachi. We know Risk is getting replaced but the rest of these, something needs to happen. If things don't change we may want to start having our suspects shoot into that crowd to confirm themselves.
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EBWOP (need to proof, sorry)
Deadline shifts according to when the shot is fired right, so now the deadline will be 2am so you will be there for the next one (or at least be awake near when it occurs)
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On June 13 2012 22:32 marvellosity wrote:
rastaban, you did flipflop on gonzaw like a mofo.
True, Guess I should have stuck to my guns instead of listening to everyone else in town. I haven't played mafia in what, a year maybe, He made a massive plan that would never work since he hadn't read the basic rules of the game, I assumed he had to be a "stupid" towney (No offense Gonzaw just mean that you are winging it and not paying too much attention nothing personal). Thats what Ver said in his guide about players who push big plans and don't read setups, but it isn't 100% mafia can make stupid moves and once you read the guide as mafia you might push a big plan day 1, esspecially one that you know can't work.
The moment day appeared someone wanted to shoot him and I had to go to bed as it was late and I had to work in the morning so I agreed with the plan that we make him shoot someone. Why, because I still thought he was green and his shot would confirm him and end the pointless discussion, I even said that at one point. When we found out he didn't have a gun it was too late to save him at that point since he couldn't confirm himself by shooting someone scummy.
Someone whom is suspected by most of the town then doesn't have a gun, my only argument for him being town was that mafia would have payed more attention to the setup than a Towney. What about a blue, well they usually try to be a bit more hidden so it didn't fit, on top of that he won't claim forever (He should have claimed much earlier) and then his argument for picking soft was just atrocious.
I still stand by the second plan where I agreed with keeping him around and shooting someone else and see if mafia kill him.
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On June 13 2012 23:11 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 22:26 rastaban wrote:
EBWOP (need to proof, sorry)
Deadline shifts according to when the shot is fired right, so now the deadline will be 2am so you will be there for the next one (or at least be awake near when it occurs) no it won't. I thought so as well because I'm pretty sure it was 12hours nights earlier in the OP (which would have shifted the whole thing by 12 hours at least, making it 6pm instead of 6am for me) but that's apparently not the case because it's 24 hour cycles and on top of that the nigt is extended to make up the deadline switch... This night is 28hours instead of 24 hours (so I guess it's realy 6 am because the shot was 2 am for me and 2+4 = 6 :p )
Oh wow I was confused, time to list myself as stupid Towney too for not reading the end of that post. Well, while that sucks for you personally, it does slow the game down a bit so we do get more time to review during the night phase.
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On June 13 2012 23:55 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 23:50 MrZentor wrote:
If what Toad says is true, then it isn't really THAT anti town to shoot a few minutes into the day, because then we'll basically have a 48 hour night.
Right? I don't know if it's true. I just assumed it because of the 28 hour night instead of the usual 12 or 24 hour night. I guess Ace can't make it earlier but I wouldn't realy on that. I could see him being a dick and instead of expanding the night by 23 hours (when shooting within first hour) instead shot shortening it by 1 hour leaving us with a 23 hour night :p On top of that I'd rather have the day to discuss things because we have to be careful about what we say at night or mafia will just leave us the players we're suspicious of while shooting the strongest townreads we have.
Also you can pressure mafia about shooting them at night as you could get killed for it (especially if you are pressuring town since we might mislynch thinking they killed someone b/c we were getting close.
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On June 14 2012 01:15 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 01:11 Toadesstern wrote:About the mason thing: Screw that I don't need a mason when I got Supersoft and we can just speak german to pseudo-mason :p Or even better, ask a question in german, the answer is the key to unlock an encrypted text like this: Was ist der Plural von Apfel? + Show Spoiler [encrypted] +##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/ZZZZZ ITGAH BJTVG GAKRT GCFJU UXUPO UWAGE XUFHV DIHAA NCJTW WMMVO RUWAV KJCNF AQASM AIMHG GFISQ LHJNV IVBTE CAKKP GCHVB SNVJK BMEIV JVJTD APUQI BWVDA ANWLM JKIIO VATOO HFAXE LFHCI CILLM QGMKS HSTNQ GCSNK LEAQV XTMFE GAUDC LRBSV FHURH BGBWG OPGOJ DSOSF RERXV FLWVU XJTJA JMNHF RLWOA EQHNE AWJWG VHMKM XAAXX EFDJV KWSAR CICDI DCRDI LDTGM XVFLV OTJEP QUBSG VGQEG OMNLB LLJXI TVAJS WHEMG RLPBU XLMIJ HJTPR RAMEU DNOML JAUNI OBVQU XDXJJ UHKUR LVHMT BOLXK SELQM IFJVE ARPTP BBOIV XMJCM AWFIU QXFSD TJWSL IEODD MFMTW MLWIU QNNWJ WXVRO GSGUH LHQKX INUMP TTJBC DRIDR RLQHK XGUGX NKFWD LVHLB KGETN GFBCB XUUPE PKFNX IMHIF KAWUO HVZZZ YYYYY ##### End encrypted message I'm shooting you when I next can 
No kidding, you can't just let a guy take the piss out of you like that!
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On June 14 2012 02:37 rastaban wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 01:15 marvellosity wrote:On June 14 2012 01:11 Toadesstern wrote:About the mason thing: Screw that I don't need a mason when I got Supersoft and we can just speak german to pseudo-mason :p Or even better, ask a question in german, the answer is the key to unlock an encrypted text like this: Was ist der Plural von Apfel? + Show Spoiler [encrypted] +##### Encrypted: decrypt with http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/ZZZZZ ITGAH BJTVG GAKRT GCFJU UXUPO UWAGE XUFHV DIHAA NCJTW WMMVO RUWAV KJCNF AQASM AIMHG GFISQ LHJNV IVBTE CAKKP GCHVB SNVJK BMEIV JVJTD APUQI BWVDA ANWLM JKIIO VATOO HFAXE LFHCI CILLM QGMKS HSTNQ GCSNK LEAQV XTMFE GAUDC LRBSV FHURH BGBWG OPGOJ DSOSF RERXV FLWVU XJTJA JMNHF RLWOA EQHNE AWJWG VHMKM XAAXX EFDJV KWSAR CICDI DCRDI LDTGM XVFLV OTJEP QUBSG VGQEG OMNLB LLJXI TVAJS WHEMG RLPBU XLMIJ HJTPR RAMEU DNOML JAUNI OBVQU XDXJJ UHKUR LVHMT BOLXK SELQM IFJVE ARPTP BBOIV XMJCM AWFIU QXFSD TJWSL IEODD MFMTW MLWIU QNNWJ WXVRO GSGUH LHQKX INUMP TTJBC DRIDR RLQHK XGUGX NKFWD LVHLB KGETN GFBCB XUUPE PKFNX IMHIF KAWUO HVZZZ YYYYY ##### End encrypted message I'm shooting you when I next can No kidding, you can't just let a guy take the piss out of you like that!
Just an FYI, this was a joke
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On June 14 2012 07:09 Kenpachi wrote:
fuck i cant understand what you have in the encryption lawl
Reading it isn't enough, you need to know the culture as well
0-3
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Hmm nm 1-2 then. Graz guys?
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Ebwop
Gratz Guys
Stupid autocorrect
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On June 14 2012 09:05 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:00 talismania wrote:Ok I re-read. Gonzaw had the right idea - this is the weirdest contradiction in the whole thread: On June 12 2012 13:38 rastaban wrote:On June 12 2012 13:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If we don't have a target for gonzaw to shoot by, say, the 20 hour mark into the day, I say we should shoot gonzaw. I volunteer to be that person.
If anyone shoots before that time I say we kill them tomorrow.
I support this! Allow me to repost one of the most coherent post made in this whole thread: On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle.
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 2412 (minimum, though I prefer 18) hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping.
It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. Everyone pushing for an early shot right now is incredibly scummy, it is in towns best interest to not shoot immediately until we can review and make an informed post. There are a lot of people who still need to contribute making only 1 liners or no video posts, they need to start posting CONTENT. On June 12 2012 22:40 rastaban wrote:
The following People need to post, they are very inactive, and if they have said anything it is only a few one liners.
risk.nuke
Kenpachi
payl
gonzaw I don't see him for mafia, but I don't have a problem with making him shoot someone else if it will lessen the distracting discussion on him. So far the biggest arguments against him have been that he supported ROL and that he claimed He hadn't seen a Mafia fake a miller claim before. To me he doesn't seem scum at all, and most of the case is hinged on defending ROL, If ROL is really a miller then all the discussion seems moot.
ROL Controversy, We still have no other Millers claiming, and until we get some other contenders I am very inclined to believe ROL. There should have been 2 hits last night (mafia & SK), and only 1 went down. Unless someone else claims to have been protected I see no reason to disbelieve this. I lean towards an SK 1 shot power as if it is reuseable it would be way over powered, I think we keep an eye on him and see how things progress. If the Mafia tried to shoot him, and an SK tried to remove the gun, then I think we should hold off on killing him for a bit since there must be a reason so many people tried to hit him last night. Again if more Millers come forward then I agree we should re-evaluate the claim but for now I think his play seems town and we should hold off a final judgment for him.
Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on?
I didn't even realize when I skimmed the thread the first time that it went in this order too. First he was for wbg shooting gonzaw, then he was "not really seeing him as mafia" (paraphrase) and saying that "he doesn't seem scum at all". I thought it had gone in the other direction, but this way is just plain strange. More telling is the composition of the first post. He starts with the "I agree with this" and then it's like in his head he went "oh crap I can't just make a post that only says that" and added a bunch of meaningless filler with classic exhorting town to action stuff. The only actionable thing that post does is support the wbg plan, the rest is fluff. The guy doesn't have any scumreads. Like, by now if he was town someone should have at least pissed him off to the point of calling them scum, yeah? He has none. No one he's even suspected that I'm aware of, though I have to admit...I haven't been watching too closely until today. Rastaban shoots tomorrow, and if he can't he dies. That's my vote.
The whole reason I supported that first post was to keep someone from shooting that night, you notice there is a 9 hour gap because I was asleep.
And who was your scum read besides me, oh wait it was Gonzaw we saw how that went down. There are a ton of people who we have almost no information on. And this whole gonzaw thing, you are singling me out for being the one to defend him? When I finally decide well maybe these people who have played more than me might have a better read I guess I will go along with them you decide to lynch me
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On June 14 2012 09:27 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 09:20 rastaban wrote:On June 14 2012 09:05 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 14 2012 09:00 talismania wrote:Ok I re-read. Gonzaw had the right idea - this is the weirdest contradiction in the whole thread: On June 12 2012 13:38 rastaban wrote:On June 12 2012 13:36 wherebugsgo wrote:
If we don't have a target for gonzaw to shoot by, say, the 20 hour mark into the day, I say we should shoot gonzaw. I volunteer to be that person.
If anyone shoots before that time I say we kill them tomorrow.
I support this! Allow me to repost one of the most coherent post made in this whole thread: On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
The biggest problem with setups where so many people have guns is the town's lack of organization. It eventually ends up in a trollfest, where townies shoot each other, while the scum team sits in the background without attracting much attention. If you are town, don't forget to submit your vote for a 48 hour day cycle.
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 2412 (minimum, though I prefer 18) hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
I support a miller claim on day one. If they fail to claim on day one, then they get shot if they claim miller at any point after d1. Millers shouldn't claim night one as it assists the mafia team with blue sniping.
It seems very unlikey that the mafia team has two godfather type roles. Based on the way the shot cooldown works, they would be able to day kill four consecutive days. Combined with the six night kills that come with their deaths and lynches, thats a 2:10 trade, assuming there isn't a SK or town night vig role. I like chaoser's plan of forcing certain players to shoot, but I wouldn't leave it up to them to decide their own target. By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. Everyone pushing for an early shot right now is incredibly scummy, it is in towns best interest to not shoot immediately until we can review and make an informed post. There are a lot of people who still need to contribute making only 1 liners or no video posts, they need to start posting CONTENT. On June 12 2012 22:40 rastaban wrote:
The following People need to post, they are very inactive, and if they have said anything it is only a few one liners.
risk.nuke
Kenpachi
payl
gonzaw I don't see him for mafia, but I don't have a problem with making him shoot someone else if it will lessen the distracting discussion on him. So far the biggest arguments against him have been that he supported ROL and that he claimed He hadn't seen a Mafia fake a miller claim before. To me he doesn't seem scum at all, and most of the case is hinged on defending ROL, If ROL is really a miller then all the discussion seems moot.
ROL Controversy, We still have no other Millers claiming, and until we get some other contenders I am very inclined to believe ROL. There should have been 2 hits last night (mafia & SK), and only 1 went down. Unless someone else claims to have been protected I see no reason to disbelieve this. I lean towards an SK 1 shot power as if it is reuseable it would be way over powered, I think we keep an eye on him and see how things progress. If the Mafia tried to shoot him, and an SK tried to remove the gun, then I think we should hold off on killing him for a bit since there must be a reason so many people tried to hit him last night. Again if more Millers come forward then I agree we should re-evaluate the claim but for now I think his play seems town and we should hold off a final judgment for him.
Meapak_Ziphh, your filter looked really bad last night tons of filler and no posts contributing to discussion, but you seem to be posting more like your normal self today. Mind explaining what was going on?
I didn't even realize when I skimmed the thread the first time that it went in this order too. First he was for wbg shooting gonzaw, then he was "not really seeing him as mafia" (paraphrase) and saying that "he doesn't seem scum at all". I thought it had gone in the other direction, but this way is just plain strange. More telling is the composition of the first post. He starts with the "I agree with this" and then it's like in his head he went "oh crap I can't just make a post that only says that" and added a bunch of meaningless filler with classic exhorting town to action stuff. The only actionable thing that post does is support the wbg plan, the rest is fluff. The guy doesn't have any scumreads. Like, by now if he was town someone should have at least pissed him off to the point of calling them scum, yeah? He has none. No one he's even suspected that I'm aware of, though I have to admit...I haven't been watching too closely until today. Rastaban shoots tomorrow, and if he can't he dies. That's my vote. The whole reason I supported that first post was to keep someone from shooting that night, you notice there is a 9 hour gap because I was asleep. And who was your scum read besides me, oh wait it was Gonzaw we saw how that went down. There are a ton of people who we have almost no information on. And this whole gonzaw thing, you are singling me out for being the one to defend him? When I finally decide well maybe these people who have played more than me might have a better read I guess I will go along with them you decide to lynch me I'm not singling you out for anything to do with gonzaw. I'm singling you out because you look like ass because you don't have a single solitary scumread in the whole game. Yeah, we have lurkers...it's a problem in EVERY GAME. What you wanna do about it? Wanna shoot them? Who do you think is scum? Why? I don't know anything about you guy, so all I have to base my read on you on is the information you put in the thread....and you haven't been putting any there! But by all means, continue to pull the newb card while under attack - it's doing wonders for your case for innocence. -.-
Well played VE, Well played, but you wont get my scum arguments till day comes
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On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment?
RoL is pretty obviously town, and I don't get where people keep trying to say that he talked down millers and then claimed. If you read what he says he says there isn't much benefit in claiming miller and then proceeds to say since there isn't a down side (and only a small benefit) he might as well claim. The end result being in his opinion a small benefit to town.
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On June 14 2012 12:16 talismania wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:09 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Out of sheer spite I'm shooting you as soon as the day post goes up. Is this a joke or are you now claiming that you're able to shoot?
He has stated in the past that it was temporary
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Cephiro or how I learned to stop worrying and love the Serial Killer
Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 12:34 Cephiro wrote:On June 11 2012 16:10 supersoft wrote:
lol okay, now I got it. This setup is perfect for me.
Ahm let's discuss the dayshooting:
Should VTs shoot day1, to maximize their number of KP? If this setup is perfect for you, how come you are even asking if VTs should shoot d1? It's quite obvious in my opinion that they should, as it's our only reliable way of killing scum. No lynches in this game, as can be seen from the op. So why would we want to give the scum + a possible SK a free night to kill townies with? 4 Mafia in the game, can't be that hard trying to find one, especially as we start from N0, we will have something to go by on D1. On June 11 2012 17:25 gonzaw wrote:
Please everybody don't make a L plan to shoot a townie 5 minutes into D1.
If you think someone is scum and really want to shoot them...you can always shoot them later (if everybody follows this trail of thought we'll have normal days). The thing is, we can't be sitting on our asses waiting until we are absolutely mod-confirmedly certain about scum. Of course no-one should take hasty decisions by themselves, but if the discussion isn't going anywhere and we can't agree on a target, I'd much rather see someone take the initiative than sit around wondering what to do until it's too late. On June 12 2012 01:03 chaoser wrote:
If they can shoot, they are not one of the three regular mafia.
You seem to be certain in your claim that there are three regular mafia. Explain? On June 12 2012 01:05 Toadesstern wrote:
We need to play normal instead of focussing on millers because frankly with framers and gfs running around I don't see an easy way to figure them out. Same question to you. Earlier you were like you didn't know there could be additional/modified roles than the ones listed in the OP, and now you seem like you are taking a framer for certain. How come?
Regarding RoL's miller claim, at the moment I'd prefer to see him take the shot late tomorrow if he survives the night, with reasons why he chose that specific target (whomever he picks, if we proceed with the miller-takes-the-shot-plan.) Obviously in my opinion even though he should be the one suggesting his target, we should not let him get away if he decides to take a random shot at someone most of the town does not agree with, especially if it's not backed up with arguments. On June 12 2012 05:58 supersoft wrote:
Wish i was VT. Maybe I am... Maybe not... And the point of this is? Maybe you'd like to take a shot at someone? On June 12 2012 06:04 supersoft wrote:
If I was VT, I would agree on that. Moreover would I assure, that I will shoot anyone that shoots townies without discussion. And 6 minutes later you claim not VT. I'll let everyone make their own assumptions about this. @ wbg, more useful content please. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 24 hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. I agree with these points. On June 12 2012 08:48 gonzaw wrote:Anyways, damn, I really want to start some analysis, but this whole night is just a bunch of discussion about plans  If you want to start doing some analysis, you should stop writing about possible plans yourself. Seems kind of contradictory to me. This nightphase is by no means just discussion about plans, in my opinion it is very well possible to analyze someone's behavior already. (Of course a larger sample size is always better, but sometimes you can get a good start with just a little.) Adding to what you were talking about medics, if they find out that they are insane, they should stop protecting VT's unless the 50% chance is crucial for our survival and still having a shot at winning the game for town. Marv makes a small analysis post on RoL's miller claim, Toad performs the bandwagon jump surprisingly fast, I do not like. On June 12 2012 10:30 gonzaw wrote:Yeah I got carried away when I mentioned the watcher He's under scrutiny just by claiming Miller. Mafia may take the chance to shoot him tonight or on N1 just because of the reasons I presented previously. The "real" game hasn't started yet (the analysis and shit), so there's really no behaviour that can convince me Rol is GF (like I said his claim alone makes me think its legit). Anyways I gotta eat so I'll expand later Everyone should be under scrutiny. Not just someone claiming Miller. I don't like how you state that the real game hasn't started yet, and you give an absolute "There is really no behaviour that can convince me RoL is GF", just because in your opinion the game hasn't started yet? + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 10:35 talismania wrote:I've realized that an idea I had after Space Station might be applicable here. I was saving it up for a game with a mayoral election and PMs, but I then saw that in this game we all get to be mayor! So here's the outlines of the idea. The goal is to catch scum out in the long run by forcing them to post cases, suspicions, etc. Scum operate by feeling out the thread, sensing where discussion is going and nudging it along in a favorable direction or whatever. Blending in and all that jazz. To make it harder for this to happen (and to simultaneously make it so that everyone is playing harder), I came up with this proposal. (1) Everyone has to pick one person to make a case on, for why they think that person is scum. You have to actually make the case, like you're radfield or qatol or whatever. Nice decent-length post. (2) Everyone reveals their case at the same time (a good time would be near daybreak). This is the part that makes it hard for scum to blend in. (3) Note that there's extra information to be had here: who participated and who didn't. And why did the people who didn't participate not do so? (4) We take a look at the cases and go from there. FAQ: What's this good for again?
--Forces participation / thread reading --Forces scum to make their own cases rather than hanging back --Additional information: HOW do people make their cases etc --When someone flips scum, there's a wealth of information to look back on. Who did they make a case on? Who made a case on them? Etc etc How the fuck do you get everyone on the thread at the same time?
--You don't need to. You can post your case before the deadline but encrypt it using http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.html and then post the key later. Yay encryption! What's wrong with just posting our cases as we make them?--Nothing really. That's obviously how every other game is played. But doing it this way can force everyone to play harder, better, etc. See the first question. It's not like posting has to stop until the cases are made or anything. Does it have to be a case on a single person?--All that matters for point (1) above is that it's something agreed to by everyone. It could be a case on a single person. It could be reads on everyone in the game. It could be a top four list of scum contenders. Whatever we think generates the most information. Your point (4) - how do we get from this to a lynch?--Nothing in particular. This acts as an info dump. We can get from it to the shooting however we want. Boohoo it will spam the thread up!
--Suck it up and play the game. Mafia is about reading things and making decisions. If you're concerned about this, then we can all put our encrypted cases in spoiler tags. ___________ I will do this for sure. Anyone with me? This is totally unrelated and unnecessary in my opinion. Why would we need such special case plans to find out who's scum? Just play like the game is usually played. If you think someone is scum, make a case, or convince others why that someone is scum. Random ideas for how we should play the game are not needed, concentrate on scumhunting instead of making these. Weak start. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 11:03 gonzaw wrote:
Yeah I'm not really putting too much effort this game for now (other than just coming up with a plan of action).
Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm?
Mostly because I expect to get shot tonight, so anything I do would basically be pointless (I knew that in pre-game though).
.... I don't even know what to say to this. You don't even know your role pre-game, why would you expect to get shot on N0 before the game has even started? I don't like that attitude at all. You can't play mafia going into the game thinking "I'm going to die soon anyway so anything I do is pointless." You have to make the best out of it while you are alive. If you die and are a townie, you better have made the time you were alive count for your teammates to take the game for you.
And no, the "real" game hasn't started because there's basically nothing to analyze or to respond to. There aren't any cases, or people's thoughts on other players, and I'm lazy to check each filter to try and gauge a read out of people just by their opinion on the plans presented.
Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours?
My points to gonzaw in bolded.
Another thing I would like to point out is that there is a possibility that we have an SK in the game which can be bulletproof. The only threat for the SK are daykills, (or maybe an insane medic protection can kill at night, not sure?), which basically means that if there is an SK, he/she will most likely want to shoot at town, to lessen the overall KP. If the mafia has only 1 daykiller (GF), like most people seem to suspect, the SK only needs to ensure that the GF is dead if there are no other mafia roles to threaten him, which means he could win in an 1vs3 mafia situation. Because that I think it is very likely that the SK will be shooting into town (+ Mafia GF, which the town wants dead also)... I ask all players to keep an eye out for a possible SK. This should NOT override all the other scumhunting going on, just one possibility that is important to keep an eye on in my opinion.
Cephiro asks questions of everone, but has no opinion of his own
Look at this line If you want to start doing some analysis, you should stop writing about possible plans yourself. Seems kind of contradictory to me. This nightphase is by no means just discussion about plans, in my opinion it is very well possible to analyze someone's behavior already. Yet we will never get any analysis from him.
How about thisThe thing is, we can't be sitting on our asses waiting until we are absolutely mod-confirmedly certain about scum. Of course no-one should take hasty decisions by themselves, but if the discussion isn't going anywhere and we can't agree on a target, I'd much rather see someone take the initiative than sit around wondering what to do until it's too late. We can't sit around and yet that is all he does this whole game
@ wbg, more useful content please. why doesnt he set an example
I agree with these points. why.... well as you will continue to see reasons are never given for any of his agreements or disagreements
Here are two more comments to Gonzaw on why Gonzaw needs to analyze more instead of himself
Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm? and
Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours?
All this babble about everything being analyzable and how Gonzaw is lazy but he doesn't give a single read himself... why doesn't Cephiro care enough to do it?
Another thing I would like to point out is that there is a possibility that we have an SK in the game which can be bulletproof. The only threat for the SK are daykills, (or maybe an insane medic protection can kill at night, not sure?), which basically means that if there is an SK, he/she will most likely want to shoot at town, to lessen the overall KP. If the mafia has only 1 daykiller (GF), like most people seem to suspect, the SK only needs to ensure that the GF is dead if there are no other mafia roles to threaten him, which means he could win in an 1vs3 mafia situation. Because that I think it is very likely that the SK will be shooting into town (+ Mafia GF, which the town wants dead also)...
I ask all players to keep an eye out for a possible SK. This should NOT override all the other scumhunting going on, just one possibility that is important to keep an eye on in my opinion.
The other part to notice is his infatuation with an SK being in the game. While bad for town, this is very bad for mafia as they can get in a situation where they can not kill him since they cant lynch. You will notice this comes up again later.
On June 12 2012 13:09 Cephiro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote:
I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. I partly understand what you mean, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would not totally rule it out. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote:
Because I had the feeling I would. I've been shot N1 in 2 out of 3 games I've been town...and in like 90% of the games I've been town in UG mafia.
Knowing that and knowing that there wasn't going to be any meaningful discussion going on (that wasn't related to the setup) it just disheartens you a little bit and doesn't put you in the right mood. Even if you felt like you had tough luck surviving, you should never start a game with "I've given up"-attitude, and maybe pick up your play if happened to survive. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote:
What do you think of marv's aggressiveness towards RoL and me Cephiro? I like that he's taking a stance and trying to get things started. I do not agree with all of his points, but he has a few valid ones that I somewhat agree with. It is not enough to convince me yet, but I would like to see other players come forward more like him. Why wait till D1 if you can start N0? One thing I would keep an eye on is if he starts accusing multiple people with very little reasoning. (Which he has not yet, in my opinion.)
Once again no content, plans or reads just small talk
I partly understand what you mean, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would not totally rule it out. He partially understands, agreeing to disagree, these are tell tale signs of mafia ambivalence.
Now check out his final lines
I like that he's taking a stance and trying to get things started. I do not agree with all of his points, but he has a few valid ones that I somewhat agree with. It is not enough to convince me yet, but I would like to see other players come forward more like him. Why wait till D1 if you can start N0?
He encourages marv passively while being vague about what he dislikes. Which of Marv's points are valid, which aren't we don't get to know. He says why wait for day time, but then he doesn't do anything. This is twice now that he pushes people to do things he isn't. I think this is huge, who says that they disagree with your points for wanting to kill, and then not only not explain why, but actively encourage it?
On June 12 2012 13:27 Cephiro wrote:
In all honesty, I was pretty much assuming there would be 2 nightkills as well, since I found the possibility of an SK being in-game very likely, and I'm having a hard time understanding if there is an SK, why would they leave the kill for the daytime, as a trigger-happy townie could just take a shot before him and thus modkill him?
I think I might've misunderstood something in the way a possible SK works, but there's always a possibility there is no SK, or that there is an SK but with different restrictions than in the example role given in the OP.
I don't see why mafia would not shoot on N0, as there is necessarily no tracker/watcher, and the chances of getting caught on N0 aren't that high, so I suspect that the kill was the mafia KP. They need every kill they can get.
Enough assuming and more playing I suppose.
So chaoser, you really seem to want gonzaw to shoot, which I understand, but I don't like the idea of him doing it right away, as we haven't really even have a chance to discuss with the majority of the players. (Unless you want him to shoot right away as a proof of his possible towny-ness, or at least gun ownership, while effectively modkilling the SK if we've understood right how the role works?). Especially as the "miller-takes-the-shot-plan" seemed to gain some attention last phase.
Another condemning post. Once again we have more infatuation with the SK.
All the gonzow discussion going on and all we get from Cephiro is at the end he thinks it could be ok to kill him immediately if it means the killing of the SK. Why is he again mentioning the SK,
What kind of Towney spends 2 of their 3 posts on tracking down the SK? I think this is scum trying to tack down their competitor and trying to seem town. He even shows he hasn't paid much attention as he also is fine with the shoot the miller plan instead of the current one. Notice how he gives no input on this plan or the Gonzaw shot (other than to possibly delay the shot unless maybe they can get the SK)
In conclusion Cephiro is Mafia and hoping to skate along unnoticed. He constantly worries about a Serial Killer, not about mafia. He then asks lots of questions but never gives an opinion. He mentions that he both agrees and disagrees with the arguments about Gonzaw but we never get an explanation for either.
But most of all He doesn't care. He posts without caring about the results because he already knows the neither of them are scum so it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care to review or analyze or to try and find a plan because it doesn't affect his win condition. Cephiro just wants to see the world burn
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Any feedback or thoughts on this? I think he is the guy to shoot, and I would love to hear his comments.
On June 14 2012 13:00 rastaban wrote:Cephiro or how I learned to stop worrying and love the Serial Killer
Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 12:34 Cephiro wrote:On June 11 2012 16:10 supersoft wrote:
lol okay, now I got it. This setup is perfect for me.
Ahm let's discuss the dayshooting:
Should VTs shoot day1, to maximize their number of KP? If this setup is perfect for you, how come you are even asking if VTs should shoot d1? It's quite obvious in my opinion that they should, as it's our only reliable way of killing scum. No lynches in this game, as can be seen from the op. So why would we want to give the scum + a possible SK a free night to kill townies with? 4 Mafia in the game, can't be that hard trying to find one, especially as we start from N0, we will have something to go by on D1. On June 11 2012 17:25 gonzaw wrote:
Please everybody don't make a L plan to shoot a townie 5 minutes into D1.
If you think someone is scum and really want to shoot them...you can always shoot them later (if everybody follows this trail of thought we'll have normal days). The thing is, we can't be sitting on our asses waiting until we are absolutely mod-confirmedly certain about scum. Of course no-one should take hasty decisions by themselves, but if the discussion isn't going anywhere and we can't agree on a target, I'd much rather see someone take the initiative than sit around wondering what to do until it's too late. On June 12 2012 01:03 chaoser wrote:
If they can shoot, they are not one of the three regular mafia.
You seem to be certain in your claim that there are three regular mafia. Explain? On June 12 2012 01:05 Toadesstern wrote:
We need to play normal instead of focussing on millers because frankly with framers and gfs running around I don't see an easy way to figure them out. Same question to you. Earlier you were like you didn't know there could be additional/modified roles than the ones listed in the OP, and now you seem like you are taking a framer for certain. How come?
Regarding RoL's miller claim, at the moment I'd prefer to see him take the shot late tomorrow if he survives the night, with reasons why he chose that specific target (whomever he picks, if we proceed with the miller-takes-the-shot-plan.) Obviously in my opinion even though he should be the one suggesting his target, we should not let him get away if he decides to take a random shot at someone most of the town does not agree with, especially if it's not backed up with arguments. On June 12 2012 05:58 supersoft wrote:
Wish i was VT. Maybe I am... Maybe not... And the point of this is? Maybe you'd like to take a shot at someone? On June 12 2012 06:04 supersoft wrote:
If I was VT, I would agree on that. Moreover would I assure, that I will shoot anyone that shoots townies without discussion. And 6 minutes later you claim not VT. I'll let everyone make their own assumptions about this. @ wbg, more useful content please. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 07:56 kitaman27 wrote:
If you shoot five minutes into the game, you will be shot day two.
If you shoot within the first 24 hours of a cycle, you will be shot the following cycle
If you shoot without the town's consensus, you will be shot
I don't care if you shoot a mafia player. If you break one of those three rules, you will be shot in return.
By shooting early and often, the mafia godfather gets the most out of his role. We shouldn't allow a random player to shoot at will. I agree with these points. On June 12 2012 08:48 gonzaw wrote:Anyways, damn, I really want to start some analysis, but this whole night is just a bunch of discussion about plans If you want to start doing some analysis, you should stop writing about possible plans yourself. Seems kind of contradictory to me. This nightphase is by no means just discussion about plans, in my opinion it is very well possible to analyze someone's behavior already. (Of course a larger sample size is always better, but sometimes you can get a good start with just a little.) Adding to what you were talking about medics, if they find out that they are insane, they should stop protecting VT's unless the 50% chance is crucial for our survival and still having a shot at winning the game for town. Marv makes a small analysis post on RoL's miller claim, Toad performs the bandwagon jump surprisingly fast, I do not like. On June 12 2012 10:30 gonzaw wrote:Yeah I got carried away when I mentioned the watcher He's under scrutiny just by claiming Miller. Mafia may take the chance to shoot him tonight or on N1 just because of the reasons I presented previously. The "real" game hasn't started yet (the analysis and shit), so there's really no behaviour that can convince me Rol is GF (like I said his claim alone makes me think its legit). Anyways I gotta eat so I'll expand later Everyone should be under scrutiny. Not just someone claiming Miller. I don't like how you state that the real game hasn't started yet, and you give an absolute "There is really no behaviour that can convince me RoL is GF", just because in your opinion the game hasn't started yet? + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 10:35 talismania wrote:I've realized that an idea I had after Space Station might be applicable here. I was saving it up for a game with a mayoral election and PMs, but I then saw that in this game we all get to be mayor! So here's the outlines of the idea. The goal is to catch scum out in the long run by forcing them to post cases, suspicions, etc. Scum operate by feeling out the thread, sensing where discussion is going and nudging it along in a favorable direction or whatever. Blending in and all that jazz. To make it harder for this to happen (and to simultaneously make it so that everyone is playing harder), I came up with this proposal. (1) Everyone has to pick one person to make a case on, for why they think that person is scum. You have to actually make the case, like you're radfield or qatol or whatever. Nice decent-length post. (2) Everyone reveals their case at the same time (a good time would be near daybreak). This is the part that makes it hard for scum to blend in. (3) Note that there's extra information to be had here: who participated and who didn't. And why did the people who didn't participate not do so? (4) We take a look at the cases and go from there. FAQ: What's this good for again?
--Forces participation / thread reading --Forces scum to make their own cases rather than hanging back --Additional information: HOW do people make their cases etc --When someone flips scum, there's a wealth of information to look back on. Who did they make a case on? Who made a case on them? Etc etc How the fuck do you get everyone on the thread at the same time?
--You don't need to. You can post your case before the deadline but encrypt it using http://www.fourmilab.ch/javascrypt/javascrypt.html and then post the key later. Yay encryption! What's wrong with just posting our cases as we make them?--Nothing really. That's obviously how every other game is played. But doing it this way can force everyone to play harder, better, etc. See the first question. It's not like posting has to stop until the cases are made or anything. Does it have to be a case on a single person?--All that matters for point (1) above is that it's something agreed to by everyone. It could be a case on a single person. It could be reads on everyone in the game. It could be a top four list of scum contenders. Whatever we think generates the most information. Your point (4) - how do we get from this to a lynch?--Nothing in particular. This acts as an info dump. We can get from it to the shooting however we want. Boohoo it will spam the thread up!
--Suck it up and play the game. Mafia is about reading things and making decisions. If you're concerned about this, then we can all put our encrypted cases in spoiler tags. ___________ I will do this for sure. Anyone with me? This is totally unrelated and unnecessary in my opinion. Why would we need such special case plans to find out who's scum? Just play like the game is usually played. If you think someone is scum, make a case, or convince others why that someone is scum. Random ideas for how we should play the game are not needed, concentrate on scumhunting instead of making these. Weak start. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 11:03 gonzaw wrote:
Yeah I'm not really putting too much effort this game for now (other than just coming up with a plan of action).
Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm?
Mostly because I expect to get shot tonight, so anything I do would basically be pointless (I knew that in pre-game though).
.... I don't even know what to say to this. You don't even know your role pre-game, why would you expect to get shot on N0 before the game has even started? I don't like that attitude at all. You can't play mafia going into the game thinking "I'm going to die soon anyway so anything I do is pointless." You have to make the best out of it while you are alive. If you die and are a townie, you better have made the time you were alive count for your teammates to take the game for you.
And no, the "real" game hasn't started because there's basically nothing to analyze or to respond to. There aren't any cases, or people's thoughts on other players, and I'm lazy to check each filter to try and gauge a read out of people just by their opinion on the plans presented.
Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours?
My points to gonzaw in bolded.
Another thing I would like to point out is that there is a possibility that we have an SK in the game which can be bulletproof. The only threat for the SK are daykills, (or maybe an insane medic protection can kill at night, not sure?), which basically means that if there is an SK, he/she will most likely want to shoot at town, to lessen the overall KP. If the mafia has only 1 daykiller (GF), like most people seem to suspect, the SK only needs to ensure that the GF is dead if there are no other mafia roles to threaten him, which means he could win in an 1vs3 mafia situation. Because that I think it is very likely that the SK will be shooting into town (+ Mafia GF, which the town wants dead also)... I ask all players to keep an eye out for a possible SK. This should NOT override all the other scumhunting going on, just one possibility that is important to keep an eye on in my opinion. Cephiro asks questions of everone, but has no opinion of his own Look at this line Show nested quote +If you want to start doing some analysis, you should stop writing about possible plans yourself. Seems kind of contradictory to me. This nightphase is by no means just discussion about plans, in my opinion it is very well possible to analyze someone's behavior already. Yet we will never get any analysis from him. How about this Show nested quote +The thing is, we can't be sitting on our asses waiting until we are absolutely mod-confirmedly certain about scum. Of course no-one should take hasty decisions by themselves, but if the discussion isn't going anywhere and we can't agree on a target, I'd much rather see someone take the initiative than sit around wondering what to do until it's too late. We can't sit around and yet that is all he does this whole game why doesnt he set an example why.... well as you will continue to see reasons are never given for any of his agreements or disagreements Here are two more comments to Gonzaw on why Gonzaw needs to analyze more instead of himself Show nested quote +Why not? You talked about how you want to get to analyze stuff but then you keep just talking about random plans when you didn't really want to. That doesn't make any sense to me. Where's the enthusiasm? and Show nested quote +Every post is analyzable or respondable. It may not be useful in every case, but there is certainly a lot to go by already. If there aren't any cases, you can make one. If people don't post their thoughts yet, you can ask for them. What's up with this sudden lazyness of yours? All this babble about everything being analyzable and how Gonzaw is lazy but he doesn't give a single read himself... why doesn't Cephiro care enough to do it? Show nested quote +Another thing I would like to point out is that there is a possibility that we have an SK in the game which can be bulletproof. The only threat for the SK are daykills, (or maybe an insane medic protection can kill at night, not sure?), which basically means that if there is an SK, he/she will most likely want to shoot at town, to lessen the overall KP. If the mafia has only 1 daykiller (GF), like most people seem to suspect, the SK only needs to ensure that the GF is dead if there are no other mafia roles to threaten him, which means he could win in an 1vs3 mafia situation. Because that I think it is very likely that the SK will be shooting into town (+ Mafia GF, which the town wants dead also)...
I ask all players to keep an eye out for a possible SK. This should NOT override all the other scumhunting going on, just one possibility that is important to keep an eye on in my opinion. The other part to notice is his infatuation with an SK being in the game. While bad for town, this is very bad for mafia as they can get in a situation where they can not kill him since they cant lynch. You will notice this comes up again later.
Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:09 Cephiro wrote:On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote:
I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. I partly understand what you mean, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would not totally rule it out. On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote:
Because I had the feeling I would. I've been shot N1 in 2 out of 3 games I've been town...and in like 90% of the games I've been town in UG mafia.
Knowing that and knowing that there wasn't going to be any meaningful discussion going on (that wasn't related to the setup) it just disheartens you a little bit and doesn't put you in the right mood. Even if you felt like you had tough luck surviving, you should never start a game with "I've given up"-attitude, and maybe pick up your play if happened to survive. On June 12 2012 13:00 gonzaw wrote:
What do you think of marv's aggressiveness towards RoL and me Cephiro? I like that he's taking a stance and trying to get things started. I do not agree with all of his points, but he has a few valid ones that I somewhat agree with. It is not enough to convince me yet, but I would like to see other players come forward more like him. Why wait till D1 if you can start N0? One thing I would keep an eye on is if he starts accusing multiple people with very little reasoning. (Which he has not yet, in my opinion.) Once again no content, plans or reads just small talk Show nested quote +I partly understand what you mean, but I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I would not totally rule it out. He partially understands, agreeing to disagree, these are tell tale signs of mafia ambivalence. Now check out his final lines Show nested quote +I like that he's taking a stance and trying to get things started. I do not agree with all of his points, but he has a few valid ones that I somewhat agree with. It is not enough to convince me yet, but I would like to see other players come forward more like him. Why wait till D1 if you can start N0? He encourages marv passively while being vague about what he dislikes. Which of Marv's points are valid, which aren't we don't get to know. He says why wait for day time, but then he doesn't do anything. This is twice now that he pushes people to do things he isn't. I think this is huge, who says that they disagree with your points for wanting to kill, and then not only not explain why, but actively encourage it?
Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:27 Cephiro wrote:
In all honesty, I was pretty much assuming there would be 2 nightkills as well, since I found the possibility of an SK being in-game very likely, and I'm having a hard time understanding if there is an SK, why would they leave the kill for the daytime, as a trigger-happy townie could just take a shot before him and thus modkill him?
I think I might've misunderstood something in the way a possible SK works, but there's always a possibility there is no SK, or that there is an SK but with different restrictions than in the example role given in the OP.
I don't see why mafia would not shoot on N0, as there is necessarily no tracker/watcher, and the chances of getting caught on N0 aren't that high, so I suspect that the kill was the mafia KP. They need every kill they can get.
Enough assuming and more playing I suppose.
So chaoser, you really seem to want gonzaw to shoot, which I understand, but I don't like the idea of him doing it right away, as we haven't really even have a chance to discuss with the majority of the players. (Unless you want him to shoot right away as a proof of his possible towny-ness, or at least gun ownership, while effectively modkilling the SK if we've understood right how the role works?). Especially as the "miller-takes-the-shot-plan" seemed to gain some attention last phase. Another condemning post. Once again we have more infatuation with the SK. All the gonzow discussion going on and all we get from Cephiro is at the end he thinks it could be ok to kill him immediately if it means the killing of the SK. Why is he again mentioning the SK, What kind of Towney spends 2 of their 3 posts on tracking down the SK? I think this is scum trying to tack down their competitor and trying to seem town. He even shows he hasn't paid much attention as he also is fine with the shoot the miller plan instead of the current one. Notice how he gives no input on this plan or the Gonzaw shot (other than to possibly delay the shot unless maybe they can get the SK)
In conclusion Cephiro is Mafia and hoping to skate along unnoticed. He constantly worries about a Serial Killer, not about mafia. He then asks lots of questions but never gives an opinion. He mentions that he both agrees and disagrees with the arguments about Gonzaw but we never get an explanation for either. But most of all He doesn't care. He posts without caring about the results because he already knows the neither of them are scum so it doesn't matter to him. He doesn't care to review or analyze or to try and find a plan because it doesn't affect his win condition. Cephiro just wants to see the world burn
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ROL can't shoot anyway, he just admitted he didn't get it back yet, I was actually surprised he thought he would. I assumed that if had legitimately lost his gun on a temporary basis it would work like a mis fire so it takes 1 day to renew (today) and then tomorrow it would be available again.
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On June 14 2012 23:09 MrZentor wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 14 2012 14:33 payl wrote:#1 suspect: MrZentor Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:17 MrZentor wrote:
RoL is most likely miller, as I doubt the mafia would make up something like that; the only suspicious thing is that now he appears exactly like a normal mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), we might want to kill him in the future if we don't kill anybody who has the gun stealing role.
Originally, I was leaning toward Gonzaw being scum, but his posts have gotten more townie. However, he's still the most suspicious person, so I agree that we should have him shoot.
If we can't find an optimal person to shoot, I would encourage him to shoot into risk.nuke, Kenpachi, and payl.
Obviously we wouldn't allow him to choose who he shoots.
Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment? Entire change of stance based on pithy reasoning which doesn't support the change in opinion. And even better, the later post which ends with "would anybody else care to comment?" showing that he's afraid to commit to the accusation and is instead throwing it out there and seeing if it gains traction. Scum. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote:If you really want to shoot me or something at least wait 24 hours into D1 so you don't waste the whole day and so we can put some sense into you. His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler +What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not?
Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there).
I think they did it like this:
1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not
2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun
Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public):
Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list.
That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun).
This is the beauty from the plan:
Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues....
...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game.
Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day.
Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made).
So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group.
Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK.
Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use:
1)Their medic saves on the gunners
2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners
1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them
2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later.
That was the way it would work in the 1st game.
Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit
What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it.
Also, something I found along the way. Pretty sure
1) We'll run out of things to say or just go in circles
2) Ace will probably put a limit on like 48 hours and then we just "no shot" and move straight to night
3) Someone will probably get trigger happy and shoot anyway.
I want gonzaw to shoot. We already had 24 hours of discussion since night 0 happened, we've got our suspicions. Let's go gonzaw, chop chop. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen. This post is 100% bullshit. "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." What the fuck does that mean? And "This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it."? The plan was terrible...outing which townies could shoot and which could not? In any other context I would have taken MrZentor's comment to be sarcasm. And then another single sentence trying to paint chaoser with a bit of guilt for something that is frankly, trivial. I also have my eye on Toads, but I'll write more tomorrow. Show nested quote +Entire change of stance based on pithy reasoning which doesn't support the change in opinion. And even better, the later post which ends with "would anybody else care to comment?" showing that he's afraid to commit to the accusation and is instead throwing it out there and seeing if it gains traction. Scum. The person who claimed miller should be active and promoting a pro town environment, not lurking for 24 hours. The miller has a harder job than the rest of us; because it's possible that a mafia could claim miller, all claimed millers must be so pro town that there is no doubt of his alignment. RoL lurking is exactly what a mafia would do after successfully claiming miller. You're attacking me for asking for other people's opinions on RoL? Other people's opinions allow you to gauge how likely it is that your read is likely. + Show Spoiler +This post is 100% bullshit. "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." What the fuck does that mean?
And "This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it."? The plan was terrible...outing which townies could shoot and which could not? In any other context I would have taken MrZentor's comment to be sarcasm. And then another single sentence trying to paint chaoser with a bit of guilt for something that is frankly, trivial. It means that town people are a lot more open and share a lot more things that an average mafia wouldn't; that was one of those things. Yes, you allow mafia to see who has a gun and who doesn't, but at the same time, it gives you a huge chance of revealing scum. That's funny, because Choaser didn't think it was trivial. In summary, payl is desperate to look like he's contributing information to town, but his case is really quite terrible.
+ Show Spoiler +On June 14 2012 17:05 Dirkzor wrote:Morning! First of, lets kill scum. I present: MrZentor! I was on to him early on: read hereBut after that it have just gotten worse. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:40 MrZentor wrote:If you really want to shoot me or something at least wait 24 hours into D1 so you don't waste the whole day and so we can put some sense into you. His insistence on waiting until most of the day passes before shooting. I personally don't find people's opinion on certain plans (or policy lynches, etc) alignment telling at all. So no matter how much someone talks and talks about plans, I can't analyze their alignment based on their behaviour, if everybody else is discussing plans as well. This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say. + Show Spoiler +What if all of us claim if we have a gun to shoot or not?
Like said before, most blue roles are not that strong (the good ones don't know their sanity); but the VT/Miller roles are the strongest since they control the "lynch", and are our only way to win this game (other than a random vigilante out there).
I think they did it like this:
1)Everybody claims if they have a gun or not
2)The people that claimed they have a gun, take turns each day to shoot the most scummy one from the pool of the guys that don't have a gun
Here we can use that "random thingy" site Palmar made for iGrok's game (if someone's good enough to copy the script and shit, maybe make it public):
Each day we make a list of all the people that claimed they have a gun, and randomize it. That way we randomly choose who to shoot from that list.
That way mafia can't try to fake-claim that they have a gun and manipulate their way to never shoot at all, because the process of choosing who to shoot is random so if it's their turn to shoot they can't get away with it (this will disencourage scum fake-claiming they have a gun).
This is the beauty from the plan:
Yes, all the VTs/Millers will be outed for SK/scum, and so will the blues....
...however the blues will be mostly intact and survive the whole game.
Why? Because in the pool of blues most of the scum (goon and RBers, etc) lurk. If they shoot blues at night, that pool is reduced so they have more chances of being shot at day.
Not only that, but because of what I said earlier they'll most likely shoot VTs (check that post I made).
So blues are free to make their actions at night (not all of them can be RBed, plus they shouldn't claim their roles either) to help us with what we can, while we systematically kill those scum in their group.
Once we kill all scum in the "blue" group (3 of them right?), we are set, leave the rest of those blues alone and take a look at the VT/Miller claims to get the GF and the SK.
Since only non-gunners will get shot at day, and only gunners will get shot at night by scum, the blues in the non-gunners group can use:
1)Their medic saves on the gunners
2)Their watcher/tracker/cop checks on the gunners
1)Because those are the only ones getting shot at night, so they have a greater chance to save them
2)Because once all the scum from the non-gunners are killed, we need to find the SK/GF. If blues check those players, then it's more likely they can find the SK/GF for us so we have it easier later.
That was the way it would work in the 1st game.
Now that I think about it the "SK or scum can steal guns at night" thing if RoL says the truth can change it a little bit
What do you guys think? Any way to improve it if it's worth it? Or is it unworthy? This is an excellent plan, which I believe would give town a great chance of winning; I doubt a mafia would suggest it.
Also, something I found along the way. Pretty sure
1) We'll run out of things to say or just go in circles
2) Ace will probably put a limit on like 48 hours and then we just "no shot" and move straight to night
3) Someone will probably get trigger happy and shoot anyway.
I want gonzaw to shoot. We already had 24 hours of discussion since night 0 happened, we've got our suspicions. Let's go gonzaw, chop chop. Chaoser wanted Gonzaw to shoot at dawn, effectively killing 24 hours of discussion. That's exactly what scum would want to happen. In this post he already starts to distance himself from any potential Gonzaw death (because he knew he was town). Calling gonzaw plan "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." is bullcrap since scum always come up with plans so we discuss the plan instead of actaul scumhunting. Its also easy to make it look like you are contributing when posting plans and talking about said plans. (See RoL in storm) He also starts a small "Chaoser is scum" notion throughout the post because chaoser is pressuring gonzaw saying he should shoot now. But chaoser had a pretty legit reason: Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:31 chaoser wrote:(Unless you want him to shoot right away as a proof of his possible towny-ness, or at least gun ownership, while effectively modkilling the SK if we've understood right how the role works?) Bingo. I think he's scummy and also unlikely to be SK and so why not kill two birds with one stone. So no reason for zentor to call chaoser scum. Getting the SK so early because of technical rules would have been great at the same time pressuring someone chaoser thought was scum. And note that Chaoser flipped town. Also note that chaoser posts was before any claim from RoL being shot and saved thus making his logic quite good. + Show Spoiler [Zentor trying to get a chaoser wagon g…] +On June 12 2012 23:46 MrZentor wrote:
Gonzaw should shoot chaoser. On June 12 2012 23:52 MrZentor wrote:
Chaoser said that he didn't want to wait 24 hours and that he wanted Gonzaw to shoot a few minutes after the day post.
Check your facts. On June 13 2012 00:01 MrZentor wrote:
Do you agree that Chaoser is scummy? Then Gonzaw gets shot. Kita comes in and calls us all idiots for killing him: + Show Spoiler [Kita's post for reference] + On June 13 2012 10:50 kitaman27 wrote:
I was writing up a nice long post about how gonzaw should be the last person we should shoot and I got ninja'd by like 3 min. -_-
Why shoot the claimed cop day one when he could either tie up the roleblocker in a watcher setup, take a night hit, or provide an additional check. You can all yell at me for complaining after the flip, but that's a poor decision.
I'll stop by tomorrow evening before the night post with thoughts for day two. . Kita had some, in my opinion, good reasons to call us stupid. But then Zentor post this: Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 12:07 MrZentor wrote:
I don't see how anybody could have thought Gonzaw was scum after that claim.
The balls of steel was the sort of detail which sum doesn't have the time or energy to fabricate. Thats some weak ass reasoning as to why killing gonzaw was stupid? "lolz why didn't you idiots beleive him? He wrote balls of steel!" (<-- is my own interpretation) I think toad also touched on why this is stupid. Scum is sometimes given fake roleclaims that look like they were made by the host. So the BoS thing is total irrelevant. But look of it connects with Zentor distancing him from a townie flipping gonzaw. After chaoser flipped town Zentor needed someone new to push as scum. Why not go back to one already being discussed and in focus? RoL! With this: Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment? Zentor didn't actually write anything new about this. Well maybe the fact that RoL wasn't active during the night. Thats the only thing that have changed since Zentor wrote this: Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:17 MrZentor wrote:
RoL is most likely miller, as I doubt the mafia would make up something like that; the only suspicious thing is that now he appears exactly like a normal mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), we might want to kill him in the future if we don't kill anybody who has the gun stealing role.
Originally, I was leaning toward Gonzaw being scum, but his posts have gotten more townie. However, he's still the most suspicious person, so I agree that we should have him shoot.
If we can't find an optimal person to shoot, I would encourage him to shoot into risk.nuke, Kenpachi, and payl.
Obviously we wouldn't allow him to choose who he shoots.
It doesn't make sense that Zentor should change his opinion about RoL for no reason at all. During the last part of this night Zentor also used the known scum tactic call: "No I don't! But he did! Look!" Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote:
I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi. "I'm not lurking but kenpachi is!" Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:36 MrZentor wrote:It means he can't shoot for one day. And MZ, how is pointing out how lurky RoL has been and how that's terribly suspicious behavior for a person who claimed miller not original? Speaking of original content, I'd like some from you. Look at your last posts from the night. + Show Spoiler +On June 13 2012 12:10 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Check it out, Kita AND zentor show up to tell us how dumb we are.
Would have been just snazzy if you gentleman had actually been around during the day. On June 14 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Тебе надо говорит по-английский On June 14 2012 05:56 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 04:39 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 14 2012 04:37 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
Тебе надо говорит по-английский lol MZ any thoughts you wanna share? atm I'm at school getting ready for my last final so no lol. I still wanna kill zentor and the rastaban case looks decent from what I can tell. On June 14 2012 12:11 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote:RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote:gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Alright, finished reading.
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse.
I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller.
That claim can literally never work.
There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario.
In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway.
The same thing applies to SK's.
Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller.
But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:05 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote:On June 12 2012 04:37 chaoser wrote:
Isn't it Night 0? As in mafia get to do night kills if they want to? why did RoL claim miller already... yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. On June 12 2012 13:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well I was shot last night but survived. I also had my gun taken away which is quite interesting. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim.
Would anybody else care to comment? So zentor you've been lurking for days and when you come back this is what you decide to comment on? ALSO NO MORE FINALS!!! On June 14 2012 12:13 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
To clarify that last post, nicely done commenting on something that has been discussed to death. What about rastaban? On June 14 2012 12:15 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 12:14 MrZentor wrote:
I haven't been lurking for days. -.-
If you want to find somebody who has been lurking for days, look at Kenpachi. Do you have anything original to add? On June 14 2012 12:23 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:
I'm off to play some celebratory LoL, I'll check the thread when I'm done.
I'm really liking the idea of having rastaban shoot zentor, thoughts? What can a reader get from these posts? That you want me dead, you like the Rastaban case, and you think I lurked a bunch. "I'm not posting anything original. But neither are you!" I say we kill Zentor today! Show nested quote +In this post he already starts to distance himself from any potential Gonzaw death (because he knew he was town). Calling gonzaw plan "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." is bullcrap since scum always come up with plans so we discuss the plan instead of actaul scumhunting. Its also easy to make it look like you are contributing when posting plans and talking about said plans. (See RoL in storm)
He also starts a small "Chaoser is scum" notion throughout the post because chaoser is pressuring gonzaw saying he should shoot now. But chaoser had a pretty legit reason: I'm not "distancing myself from any potential Gonzaw death." I'm saying why Gonzaw is innocent, because he clearly was. It would be really sad if you guys ended up killing me, because I can read Gonzaw better than you can. -.- I didn't say of Gonzaw's plan "This seems like the genuine thing a mafia wouldn't say." You're misquoting me. Chaoser telling somebody to shoot a few minutes into the day because "he's scummy and also unlikely to be SK" is a pretty terrible reason. It ended up being okay, because of chaoser's role, but a normal VT shouldn't take that wager, as it could end with a bullet in your head, a day of discussion for town gone, and a decent excuse from the godfather/sk. Show nested quote +Thats some weak ass reasoning as to why killing gonzaw was stupid? "lolz why didn't you idiots beleive him? He wrote balls of steel!" (<-- is my own interpretation)
I think toad also touched on why this is stupid. Scum is sometimes given fake roleclaims that look like they were made by the host. So the BoS thing is total irrelevant. But look of it connects with Zentor distancing him from a townie flipping gonzaw.
After chaoser flipped town Zentor needed someone new to push as scum. Why not go back to one already being discussed and in focus? RoL! With this: I wasn't aware that the host gave mafia sample role pms. (A good reason for why I'm not mafia. :p) So I was wrong for calling you guys stupid for that reason, but killing Gonzaw was pretty clearly the wrong thing to do. :/ Show nested quote +It doesn't make sense that Zentor should change his opinion about RoL for no reason at all. That's funny because you posted the reason earlier. In the quote you used, I gave MZ a summary of my recent original content. Show nested quote +And MZ, how is pointing out how lurky RoL has been and how that's terribly suspicious behavior for a person who claimed miller not original? And you can add that I showed why MZ hadn't posted anything with content recently.
Would you be willing to take a shot at Cephiro?
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On June 14 2012 22:46 Dirkzor wrote:
DAMMIT! Just wrote a long post and it got lost =(
At work so I'll try to write it again fast...
Ceph:
I like the point about him thnking about the SK so much. Seems weird for a townie to do that... Other then that he is lurking and trying not to get noticed - so its like the 4-5 other players doing the same this game. He can go die for all I care since he isn't helping us in anyway. I just got a much bigger scumread on Zentor!
I want Kita and Wiggles to post more! I know the are able and should do just that! Neither have really produced anything that have helped us. I expected more from just those 2. (I would include MZ but I havent played with him before so I don't know how he plays)
Rastaban: I've commented on your case (albeit fast and short) now please respond to mine!
Well the fact that 2 different people people have posted large reviews of him at the same time on the same person is pretty strong evidence against him
I have had him marked as reddish but couldn't seem to make a good case against him so I decided to re-read the thread from the beginning constructing a time-line, it was then that I noticed Cephiro's posts and how scummy they were so I started working from that angle.
Payls post against him had some good points but not enough and thats where I was stuck on his case as well. However when you combined the continued nudges at Chaoser and then the sudden ROL focus I think makes it a much stronger case.
I would much rather see a Zentor shoot than Toad, that is for sure. I don't see toad being Mafia, at least not yet, I try to re-evaluate my reads in case I miss things, but I just don't see Toad being scum this game.
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On June 14 2012 23:04 Zealos wrote:You want me to claim?
Don't claim, we don't have any info on you yet though. I would love if you would look over the cases against Zentor and Ceph and give your thoughts and any reads you have coming in fresh. You just subbed in so I know you need time to catch up so start with the current cases if you can and then let us know your thoughts in general on how things are playing out. Were you following before you subbed in? How do you think town should proceed?
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On June 15 2012 04:08 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 03:56 marvellosity wrote:On June 15 2012 03:47 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:On June 14 2012 21:02 marvellosity wrote:
payl is guilty as shit.
he turns up during the shoot-gonzaw fiasco only to call RoL a liar because payl couldn't read the thread.
He also completely ignores what's going on in the thread at the time despite posting several times.
Now the typical 'easy' case against Zentor. I could make a case against Zentor with my eyes closed and my hands tied behind my back. I agree that zentor may be an "easy case" but why does that make him a bad lynch? As I've stated before, I think payl needs to die as well, I just don't want to see people making excuses like this about zentor. This wasn't the point, the post was about payl. So who should get shot today? Zentor or payl?
Why can't we have Zentor shoot Payl? (or cephiro) it seems like the whole 2 birds 1 stones.
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We have Cephiro around as he said he is working on a case, what about having him shoot zentor (or Payl)
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On June 15 2012 07:48 Cephiro wrote: Case #1: supersoft
supersoft. The man who constantly jumps from one thing to another. The man who doesn't finish what he starts. Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 16:10 supersoft wrote:
lol okay, now I got it. This setup is perfect for me.
Ahm let's discuss the dayshooting:
Should VTs shoot day1, to maximize their number of KP? + Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 16:26 supersoft wrote:
4 scum, 4 blues? 1-2 GF means there is a 33% chance if we shoot into the non VT players to hit scum. 1/5 of all players are scum, so lets shoot all nonVTs day1? Some of his first posts into the game. Random numbers pulled out of god knows where, this cannot serve to anything but cause confusion. And asking if VTs should shoot day 1, when it is our only reliable lynch method... seriously? No, we'll just no-shoot and give scum free kills. He also instantly drops the subject before others even have time to respond and moves on. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 05:20 supersoft wrote:
because we probably got a LOT of blues. + In an optimal scenario, we really could benefit from a Millermassclaim D1 NOT N1.... This is something I found interesting after first overlooking it. What makes you think we probably have a LOT of blues? And if you believe that is the case, why do you think a Miller massclaim on D1 would benefit us? If you think we have a lot of blues, that means you think the town doesn't possess many guns (unless you think there are vigilante(s)?), and in that situation outing any KP that town millers have, in a mass miller claim doesn't sound very smart to me. Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 05:58 supersoft wrote:
Pressuring will be so MUCH easier:
I am going to type in one letter of the "##kill: MrZentor" in each post until he delivers his opinions!
WOA! So cool. Wish i was VT. Maybe I am... Maybe not... + Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 06:04 supersoft wrote:
If I was VT, I would agree on that. Moreover would I assure, that I will shoot anyone that shoots townies without discussion. I have no idea what you are trying to achieve by this. Especially as the next time you show up, you claim to have a gun. If you were trying to confuse scum/SK, you'd do a better job by just shutting up about it. This is funny, because the way he does it has currently no credibility. He has several times threatened to shoot someone in the thread, yet backed off every single time. Always appearing trigger happy, but never keeping his word. Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:17 supersoft wrote:
"I won't claim my role though, that would only create more shitstorm."
I really can't think of a reason why you shouldn't claim except the hosts didn't give you guys your fakeclaims yet. Not sure if serious or trolling. I'll give you one reason just as an example, although there are many more good ones. By not claiming his role (if he was town), he could be able to draw kp (into a possible medic protection), or a possible scum roleblock, which would be very useful if he was a veteran for example. Say scum would roleblock but not kill him, in hopes of getting an easy mislynch later on, as he hasn't even done an exact claim. Now, a roleblock on a veteran without a kill following through is quite a waste for mafia, no? + Show Spoiler +On June 13 2012 03:15 supersoft wrote:
full claim or i shoot you in the next minutes. On June 13 2012 03:18 supersoft wrote:
lol dude, i love the feeling to shoot scum. I will if you don't claim. I certainly will :D On June 13 2012 03:20 supersoft wrote:
hahaha I got a gun dude, don't suspect me without giving reasond ^___________^ On June 13 2012 04:26 supersoft wrote:
OKAY WAIT:
Gonzaw I have this figured out. I want you to claim now. I have a rough idea what i want you to claim. If you fail you're guaranteed dead. Go for it. If you're town claim.
On June 13 2012 04:30 supersoft wrote:
CLAIM NOW On June 13 2012 04:31 supersoft wrote:
fuck you remind me so much of my last scumgame where I screwed thread discussions for onw whole day when i was guaranteed dead. You do that right now. On June 13 2012 04:45 supersoft wrote:
he won't he's scum. He basically claimed it in here. On June 13 2012 06:16 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 05:59 wherebugsgo wrote:
hey supersoft does Toad not understanding a joke mean he's mafia, or that he's just dumb? i am more concerned about his reaction to this gonzawmess: He doesn't seem to be very surprised about it. I expected him to have a stronger opinion here since he defended gonzaw earlier... (hope i remember that correctly) @Toad: Dude, seriously, how could you not get that joke! Makes us Germans look like we have no humor! can I shoot gonzaw now? On June 13 2012 07:08 supersoft wrote:
gonzaw one last chance: full claim For someone that wants to shoot Gonzaw this badly, I felt kind of disappointed when he let it go so easily. When people were talking of others taking the shot instead of him, he semt quite satisfied with it. Not only that, but he went "trigger happy", on payl shortly after: + Show Spoiler +On June 13 2012 06:23 supersoft wrote:
Payl, you have 5 minutes. I am crazy and I will shoot you if you don't shoot gonzaw. On June 13 2012 06:25 supersoft wrote:
I don't think so. I am tired of that. I really think I have to set an example for future games. On June 13 2012 06:27 supersoft wrote:
1 min. Do you even have a gun? On June 13 2012 06:32 supersoft wrote:
OH SCREW YOU! I don't wanna waste my shot on an idiot like this!? On June 13 2012 06:34 supersoft wrote:
maybe 5 min is too short -_-
going to play one lol-ranked-match. After that I chose between Toadesstern, gonzaw and payldude if they haven't already shot eachother. On June 14 2012 22:56 supersoft wrote:
shut up marvel.
if payl doesn't claim within the next 8 hours i (or better toad) shoot him at midnight european time. Yet no, nothing happens. He insists on being the one to shoot way too much for someone who doesn't follow up with anything. After doing this twice, why do you think anyone will even take a shot threat of you seriously? I guess you don't have a gun after all... Show nested quote +On June 14 2012 14:55 supersoft wrote:
actually i think a mass roleclaim would be quite beneficial. discuss. You suggest a mass roleclaim with absolutely no reasoning. How is it beneficial for town, as multiple scum could easily fake-claim VT, and asking all the so-said gun owners to take their shot would take way too long. Now he's changed his mind and prefers ordering others to shoot, as he knows his claim won't be taken seriously: + Show Spoiler +On June 15 2012 06:10 supersoft wrote:
shoot payle now. i want to sleep and nothing is going to happen until we shot some useless bewns.
Payle refuses to communicate with us. Bullet please. On June 15 2012 06:12 supersoft wrote:
I assume that he atleast readed my question about him having a gun. I asked him 2 or 3 times. I assume he doesn't want to answer this because he's scum and thinks he can scoot by with that shit. Go shoot him now Toad. On June 15 2012 06:13 supersoft wrote:
Yes so what? I want to see toad shoot him since i don't really buy that toad really has a gun. My gun will be used early enough. On top of this, he has asked multiple persons if they own a gun. Does a townie really need to know if everyone has a gun or not? How can anyone find this kind of play pro-town?
I have more on other persons, but it is getting late and I am way too sleepy to finish the other cases currently, so I will post them the instant I wake up, unless some smart-ass decides to shoot me.
Soft was green to a confirmed dt, do you think soft is gf? I couldn't find any mention of this fact but to me that is strong evidence of his being town. I am surprised a Towney would put together this whole case and miss that fact.
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Sorry on my phone but I meant I could find it mentioned in your case against him.
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Listen guys, I have cracked the code. This game is ace toying with us. He is trying to show the importance of a lynch policy. All the mafia were told to be inactive to see how long town will kill each other before enacting a lurker kill policy. He is running an experiment on us. That is why it was invite only so he could choose mafia who would all agree to lurk!
Just kidding.... At least I hope I am...
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Please be red, please be red, please be red.
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On June 15 2012 13:14 Ace wrote: Day 2talismania, Gun Enforcement Agent (Scum) has been shot+ Show Spoiler [Role] +
Welcome to Bang Bang Mafia 2!
You are the Gun Enforcement Agent!
As a government agent you are in the business of enforcing the law - your own! You are aligned with Scum and don't give a shit what the USA thinks of gun control. Your bosses won't allow you to carry a gun but you can steal a gun from any player in the game and use it any following day. Whether you are successful or not the player will be alerted that a theft occurred (or failed). You can do this ONCE per game.
You win by outnumbering the Town at any point during the Day. Good luck!
layabout replaces wherebugsgo
Well who wants to believe rol now lol
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Also great call soft, now we can get some leads off this! I am headed to bed after this good news, will re-read his filter tomorrow.
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On June 15 2012 23:16 Toadesstern wrote:
Well talis flipped mafia. I'm still a normal VT, what Supersoft did was still retarded, Supersoft still has not answered a single question about "why" he did that. Not a single one and I asked him about 3 times. Marv asked him about 3 times as well. He just does what he does. He hit a mafia so I guess he's just a jerk doing whatever he wants without explaining a thing.
Isn't this explaining why
On June 15 2012 18:02 supersoft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 17:34 Dirkzor wrote:
Good aim Supersoft but I dislike your method. Had you not hit a red you would have thrown this town into chaos. yeah i was a little short on time when I suddenly realized, that there is something wrong with payl and zentor as lynches. The first thing I did last night was filtering Zentor and I got a townread on him. After that I filtered payl and I thought he might be blue. like 40/60 (rather scum but still no good lynch + no information) Then I tried to stop the ongoing preparations to shoot one of them. Because the day would have been wasted. I refiltered everyone and catched kita and talismania. Toads reaction to this, whom I suspected before, supported my talismaniaread and abandoned my kitaread. Toad made the "mistake" to point me towards talismanis play in PYPoison. His following suggestion to shoot zentor instead of payl was the point when I realized that both, toad and talismani offered to shoot payl, but prefered to shoot zentor. What got me to the point that payl has to be scum, too. At this point of time it didn't really matter to me anymore so I picked my strongest scumread, talismani and shot him. The uncertain component in my plan really was RoL who could have been scum. Now he's like onfirmed town. Also exWBG is still someone who might be scum.
Not saying I agree with how he went about it, or even all the logic but you can't deny the results and it as an answer to why he did it.
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Bah just lost my post
Any way, Soft is also confirmed as their is no way that was a bus. First it confirms ROL (He can't be SK as SK has been shooting, and ROL had no gun, he cant be scum as they wouldn't have stolen a gun from themselves) It also ruins Mafia's biggest asset, A goon who can shoot. Guys this is incredibly powerful, no one knew this could even happen!
It gave mafia t2o great advantages, one if the GF was ever killed this guy wouldn't have been caught or it would have been very difficult b/c he could shoot to confirm himself.
Second it gave the mafia 3 consecutive pays of killing making a LYLO situation occur far far ahead of time than town realized.
The GF's shooting power is balanced by him having to wait a day to fire again so if his first shot is too bad he can be killed before doing it again, now with Tals having a shot GF can fire, Talis Fire then GF again. that is 3 day kills and 6 night kills for a total of 9 KP with absolutely 0 of it being from town. OUCH! That moved LYLO much closer!
So no more talk about their alignments, sure Soft might have not gone about it the best way but there is no way he can be a suspect at this point. This also goes to show why Gonzaw thought Scum would hit Soft so early, maybe he can't argue his points the best but his ability to shoot red is undeniable.
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Seeing how valuable Talis was I can absolutely see him trying to bus someone, little surprised he kept it up after he was dead unless he thought maybe the delay meant maybe he wasn't shot and since he did have a gun he would confirm himself by shooting soft.
I don't think his arguments against Z or I should be taken as clearing us.
From my point of view knowing I am town (hopefully I am believed) if it was a bus of a mafia he would certainly want the towny to do the shooting since otherwise they wouldn't be able to. I also think he was wanting to out an additional towneys who hadn't claimed yet (me) by causing the shot. Does this mean Zentor was the sacrafice, well since he wasn't pushing for it the other way around we can conclude if he is was the sacrifice he isn't a goon with a gun. I think Zentor should be the one to shoot tomorrow. We can discuss the target but I think he makes a great candidate for the actual shooting.
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On June 16 2012 01:17 MrZentor wrote:Well, the first 3 pages of Toad's filter is him talking about the setup and a bunch of stuff that isn't scum hunting. One thing I found that seems especially scummy is his response to RoL trying to shoot him. Look at it from a town perspective: RoL claimed to not have a gun. He tries to shoot you. If he lied about his gun and actually ends up shooting you, he's basically confirmed scum. If he actually doesn't have a gun like he claimed, nothing happens. It's a win win, but look at Toad's response. Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 06:10 Toadesstern wrote:
are you crazy, wtf is wrong with you Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 06:11 Toadesstern wrote:
ooh. holy crap don't scare me like that... This is the response I'd expect from scum. They're so afraid of getting killed, especially first day, that they overreact and completely disregard all past information. And recently, Toad claimed he couldn't read Talis, which is basically the easiest thing for scum to do. (and he tried to kill me)
I don't find that scummy at all. A towny would forget that he said didn't have a gun, you notice when we remind hi mthat he is showing he can't shoot we get the final response. Scum on the other hand knows he doesn't haven't a gun since they took it, so I would think scum would definitely remember that fact since they took the gun from him as part of their plan. Scum would know he wasn't lieing about the gun.
Everyone talked about setup and plans to begin with, I don't see either being evidence of scumminess from Toad.
See this plan here:
What about shooting payle instead of gonzaw?
If he's truely a DT I can live with him being alive and mafia can't because they don't want him to get more checks because the moment we see his flip we know wether or not we can trust him.
If he's mafia and survives n1 we shoot him tomorrow?
That really strikes me as a town move. It was a great plan and I think the one we should have done. I don't see the Mafia (knowing gonzaw really is the DT) trying to push us to save him and get more checks in before he dies. They knew soft was town at that point as well so they have a good idea that he is getting legit checks, so even a day 2 kill means we get more info from him. Maybe he was mafia trying to get town cred but I think that argument is very very unlikely.
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On June 16 2012 01:40 marvellosity wrote:rastaban, mine was more succinct
HAHA, between you and layabout I feel all my words were redundant.
Scum trying to use lots of words to make it seem like they are participating.... hmmm you be the judge
While I feel it is likely Zentor could be scum, I don't see anyway at all he is the GF, do you agree with that? I think if he shoots it would be enough to clear him, and if he can't then we kill him. he has said he would be willing to shoot so I think we shoudl give him the chance to prove it.
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On June 15 2012 08:18 talismania wrote:
Can we organize a vote or something? The way this is going is silly. One person brings up a name, then two pages later it's someone else, then two pages later its someone else, then two pages later it's back to the first person. Everyone who's around votes for who they want shot and who they want to take the shot, then we act.
My vote is still for rastaban to shoot zentor.
On June 15 2012 08:43 talismania wrote:
Not really but I'd rather shoot zentor.
On June 15 2012 09:26 talismania wrote:
fucking ridiculous game setup lol. In case I'm really dead,
SK: you should be helping out town now, if you've done the math on your wincon correctly. I'm still certain zentor is scum. Stab him since you're probably going to let supersoft live.
Town: GF will be trying to shoot D4. In fact probably D2 and D4 which may explain supersoft. Go to a voting system immediately. You can't just all bully each other.
Mafia: you all did a great job making this thread a spammy shitfest.
My top three mafia picks: zentor, rastaban of the semi-active active ones and two others I guess from the inactive pool.
3 times he pushes for Zentor. Now remember Tali had a great role as one of the mafia with a gun. So he really could have shot, and would have done so if he really was forced to. He was willing to shoot Zentor. Maybe it was a bus, but Mafia would never have bussed their GF. GF is the best role they have and he dies then only people who can't shoot are left. I don't see any way Talis would push Zenor if Zentor was the GF.
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it isn't 100%, but what is? I can see a slim chance with some convoluted schemes, but it is so small that I think if he can shoot we at least wait till later to re-address if he is mafia when we have more of them shot.
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On June 16 2012 03:38 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 03:27 MrZentor wrote:
The only reason you'd do that as mafia is if you knew I were a blue, but I'm not.
The only reason you'd do that as town is if you were confident that I was scum and didn't have a gun. I'm obviously not the godfather as rastaban posted, so you're betting your life on having the correct read on me. -.-
I hate to sound fickle, but I'd rather shoot Payl. :/ You shoot me or you're dead. It's simple as that. I posted this one: Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 02:47 Toadesstern wrote:What happened yesterday: - Supersoft asks me what I think about Talis
- I say he is suspicious and scummy
- Supersoft quotes a post from PYP that was done PREGAME, aka before alignments were out
- I tell him "dude, Talis is super scummy but that is the only post in talis filter that isn't scummy because it's a PREgame post, aka it's not alignment indicating because he didn't even have an alignment back then. You can't take that as a reason to consider him scummy although he is scummy for every other post in his filter"
- Supersoft says we should not lynch Zentor / Payl because I am GF bussing Payl and Talis, which apparently makes Payl an incredible bad target for whatever reason and therefore he shoots Talis instead of Payl or me
- I am therefore mafia because I agreed with his read on Talis, just not with his reasoning because he quoted a pregame post and because I am bussing Payl.
Am I really the only one who fails to understand the logic here? Also so far noone (except for Zentor who did the most ridiculous "case" I've ever seen) explained why I am mafia. Well and Supersoft said I am GF because I think Talis and Payl are mafia, because that's clearly the reasonable explanation here. and people ignore it because they think that reasoning makes sense. If that's what people think I don't care about it because the only way to show people how retarded they are is to shove them my green head into their face. You just said I am mafia and although you never mentioned it, it looked like I'm your best read so far and yet you're willing to shoot payl instead, the guy I am pushing while you are convinced that I am mafia. You want to shoot payle instead, the guy that Supersoft (read: the guy who shot mafia yesterday) considered to be a bad target and after telling everyone and their mother to shoot payl he suddenly realized shooting him was incredible bad (aka: he thought he's town) and therefore shot talis instead. And you tell me you'd rather shoot payl than me?
What do you care who he shoots then, you are not making any sense. If he shoots you and you flip green, is he suddenly innocent? If you are so sure he is red then shoot him and let the blame fall on you, the fact that you want to give him a chance to shoot mean you think he might not be red. I think think there is a high chance he is red but very low that he is GF, so if he shoots at all he is clear for now in my book. If he really can shoot I would much rather him shoot someone who is scum instead of you who ( unlike marv ) I think is probably town. I want him to Shoot Payl or Cephiro that would make me happy, as it clears his name. Now if he can't shoot then yeah, toad go ahead and kill him but trying to tell him to shoot you if he can gets us no where as it is no different than him shooting someone else and if he can shoot we just get a dead townie.
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On June 16 2012 06:20 layabout wrote:
RoL are you around?
Have you anything to say about Wiggle's case against you?
I would love to hear his thought son the situation but any case against ROL is absurd right now, he is obviously town at this point.
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On June 16 2012 12:43 kitaman27 wrote:
Talismania was going to be my shot yesterday! supersoft stealing my glory <3
RoL's claim that his gun was returned after the death of talismania doesn't seem very consistant with the description of the role. Are you lying to us again or is the description of the role missing details? While there are others that should be removed first, this should be cleared up.
I had a dream toad is scum. My dreams don't lie to me (sometimes). Plus I dislike how he over states his suspicion of talismania.
I might try to put a case together for bugs/layabout tomorrow.
Reading through Meapak's posts, I don't get the impression that he has a gun. Whenever a target is brought up, he is always directing other players to shoot. It's possible he is blue, but I dislike the interference that he pushed when talismania's name was brought up yesterday. Furthermore, he is someone who should be held accountable for the dt snipe. In the previous game, he was crushed by the vig mislynch, but this game, it hardly appears to bother him at all.
Need to read up further on the payl/zentor situation.
Can I make a request that we don't shoot until I have time to make a post tomorrow? Thanks!
Why would ROL lie about getting his gun back, I can't even imagine a case where that would be useful for scum or sk. He told us from the beging his pm said it was temporary in some way. Why are you trying to cast suspicion on someone confirmed at this point. If you can come up with a way he is actually scum I would love to hear it.
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On June 16 2012 12:43 kitaman27 wrote:
Talismania was going to be my shot yesterday! supersoft stealing my glory <3
RoL's claim that his gun was returned after the death of talismania doesn't seem very consistant with the description of the role. Are you lying to us again or is the description of the role missing details? While there are others that should be removed first, this should be cleared up.
I had a dream toad is scum. My dreams don't lie to me (sometimes). Plus I dislike how he over states his suspicion of talismania.
I might try to put a case together for bugs/layabout tomorrow.
Reading through Meapak's posts, I don't get the impression that he has a gun. Whenever a target is brought up, he is always directing other players to shoot. It's possible he is blue, but I dislike the interference that he pushed when talismania's name was brought up yesterday. Furthermore, he is someone who should be held accountable for the dt snipe. In the previous game, he was crushed by the vig mislynch, but this game, it hardly appears to bother him at all.
Need to read up further on the payl/zentor situation.
Can I make a request that we don't shoot until I have time to make a post tomorrow? Thanks!
Why hold MZ instead of marv accountable? Not saying we shouldn't but why are you singling out MZ over any of the others?
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MZ your an idiot I told everyone soft and ROL were confirmed. There was 0 way either was scum, MZ has to die for that.
As for sk, mafia could have shot him last night o someone was protected, but just in case we should kill MZ b/c he could have not fired last nighyand took his shot today. We will need to see if anyone claims to have been protected.
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If heirs green he has to be vt right, otherwise he would have been blue or red, that is how I took it.
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So how do we proceed from here? We just lost 24 hours of discussion, and while I prefer to discuss in the day it doesn't look like we will get that option.
Do we shoot MZ? I feel like we kind of have to, if we don't he gets to shoot again the next day and we will end up right here again. As someone said maybe he is a traitor, at this point that fits, I really want to shoot him for what he did but maybe I am not thinking clearly, and this isn't the best option.
Ok theory time, I almost mentioned it before but here goes... I think the mafia might not have a gf. Hear me out on this, with gf and the gun scum we already killed they could have locked down 3whole days of discussion like he just did here. And net up to 9 town kills with 0 town kp. That seems a tad over powered.... So what if instead there is no gf, but they do have day kp and the gf role was there so we know some mafia have kp. Maybe there's a traitor to make up for it,or maybe more than one mafia has a gun.
Regardless I want to see MZ dead regardless... Just wakingp so I will try and do some actual analysis later.
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On June 16 2012 22:02 layabout wrote:
Just because the shot will not happen today doesn't mean we can't discuss and decide what it is. We could even decide a shot and then take it at the very start of the day (so we would effectively be in the same place we would have been if MZ hadn't shot but minus 1 townie.)
We have to shoot MZ.
-3 if both night kills go off...
Also to the sk just a heads up while people have said that in the case of all Mafia vs an sk, sk wins bc he can shoot the, but they can't shoot him, as you may have realized this isnt the case as long as they have their rb they can block your bulletproof and shoot you in the night so you will want to kill the rb before you are safe vs them.
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Yeah and unless someone claims to have been protected I think mafia hit the sk last night which is why there was only 1 hit I wonder if they will kill him tonight...
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YAY!!!!! Thanks ROL for the win, So glad I saved you N0
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It was asked and answered earlier, roleblock does not stop sk kp, so he could still shoot.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.generalpatton.org/news/newsimages/PattonPistol+02.jpg)
