EPTBang Bang Mafia 2
| Forum Index > TL Mafia |
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 07 2012 04:44 chaoser wrote: i'mma shoot RoL if I can Thought we were bros!!! | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
Any suggestions? | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
Any plan that involves millers and role checking is quite stupid. There are so many things that can interfere with proper results that it hinges on nothing. Anyone advocating some sort of role centric plan needs to shut up. It won't work, we don't even know if all the roles in the OP are the only roles in the game, but even from what we can tell it is still a crap shoot and it could only get worse. I agree with what Chaoser said. If we think someone is scummy, we make them shoot who they think are scummy. If they can't shoot and can't explain themselves then we just kill them. Problem solved. On the off chance the DT figures out his sanity and claims to have found someone a Miller claim CANNOT absolve them. A DT will only get a red check back on non GF roles if his sanity is known. The non GF roles cannot shoot, so they would need to shoot to prove they are a Miller. That claim can literally never work. There is only one actual benefit of a Miller claiming in this set up. Hypothetically its day 5, we need to kill a mafia and the DT claims knowing his sanity and has a red check on someone. Assuming that person has NEVER shot during the day then he can now shoot to prove that he is not scum but a Miller. There is no way scum can emulate that play to the point where it would help a Miller to claim earlier on. The only thing that this helps is preventing a cop who knows there alignment to claiming publicly in that one very niche scenario. In that scenario the N1 Miller claim would save the cop from going public. That is the only benefit. So does that single benefit justify having someone claim Miller? I can't see why someone would ever get shit for claiming Miller. The only mafia benefit to claiming Miller would be to avoid a RC but the only one who can do that is the GF who would get outed by a DT check and would prefer to get DT checked anyway. The same thing applies to SK's. Anyone faking Miller would eventually just get outed by some means and its not worth it. So I guess there is only that one benefit, but there is no real drawback besides people wasting time speculating on why someone claimed Miller. But hey, since I outlined all the reasons above and there are no true drawbacks, might as well claim that I'm a Miller. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:26 Toadesstern wrote: I thought so as well until I realized there can be framers in this game  The op has no framers in it but they're possible because it's apparently a closed-setup with example roles. Especially if we follow the miller plan from gonzaw that is bound to fail because if we assign the guy who shoots based on being a miller and the fact that it should return red (as you pointet out no mafia will return red AND are able to shoot) we're painting a big, red cross above the millers head for a framer. I'm sure it's possible but stacking framers into a game with insane DT's is a bit fucked. I doubt they are there but at the same token we shouldn't hinge on blues to win it for us just in case. Mentioning framers and other more wacky roles just gives the mafia room to yell at us about. I'd refer to play within behavioral analysis instead of hinging on blues. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:55 FreelanceSatan wrote: yeah i didnt even think about that..looks like he jumped the gun a bit there.. what are the chances the mafia would want to shoot him instead of shooting for blues tho? It's not really a big deal. Half the reason I considered not claiming at all was just because I didn't think it was worth considering whether or not I was a Miller. I am sure if I continue being alive they will try to make me suspciious because of that. Or killing me, whatever. There is a chance that a medic could be on me because I claimed and they would be wasting their first hit. There is a number of things they have to take into account. Ultimately, I'm not really worried and whether I die or not its not that big of a deal. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote: about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. And here comes that suspicion thing I was talking about. It's the only downside I perceived of claiming regardless of timing. Idiots will always over-analyze shit for no reason. However that wasn't something I could articulate without just saying people are dumb and we can't work around them being suspicious of a miller claim regardless of how illogical it is for any non-town person to do it. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 12 2012 04:58 Toadesstern wrote: about 0. I actually thought there's no way that's really a claim because that would be stupid. Maybe it's a trick to survive d0? :p Let's start the wifom machine lol. I'm going to shoot toad if I survive. I remember several other retarded things said as well. Any issue with that? | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 12 2012 13:56 VisceraEyes wrote: Had your gun taken away? Is that real? Did you just say that? :OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO Yeah, interesting though. So the mafia have additional powers to take away a gun. Although this is interesting. If the mafia have the power to take away my gun why would they do that while trying to kill me? Someone tried to kill me and someone tried to take my gun. I can see why the SK would have that power, he is bulletproof at night but needs a way to survive day hits as well so that is definitely a possibility. I find it interesting that the SK would use that power on me since he needs as many people to die as fast as possible and taking my gun would just make me look a bit guilty. The only way that would make sense is if my first accusation was right and toad was the SK. That is essentially the purpose of that power. On the same note that would make the SK really powerful, but the set up makes him really weak to day shooting. I would say that would make up for the SK's shortcomings in the current set up so it is probably the most likely. On the otherhand the mafia has 4 members and I'm sure that could be a power that is functionally a day RB. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
##kill(##Kill): marvellosity | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
For the record, I thought the way I originally did it was stupid. But that is what is in the OP. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 13 2012 06:07 marvellosity wrote: fuck ninjad. RoL, shoot gonzaw please It doesn't matter who I shoot, it won't do anything. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 13 2012 06:08 supersoft wrote: dude that's the wrong guy... It doesn't matter, it won't do anything. I also said I'd shoot him yesterday and If I remember correctly' thats who I initially tried to shoot. I just stuck with it. you guys need to calm the fuck down. I posted maybe 15 hours ago because I had to sleep and work 10-4 | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 13 2012 06:15 payl wrote: [/blue][/b]Oops someone lied shoot him. I vote RoL for day 1 death, btw. my gun was taken from me temporarily. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 14 2012 11:17 MrZentor wrote: RoL talked about all the downsides of claiming millers, then claimed to be a miller. + Show Spoiler + On June 12 2012 09:50 marvellosity wrote: gonzaw, you've just made me read all the setup speculation on Millers. Damn thee. There is so much I do not like about the claim. Green text: Outlines in some depth how little benefit there is to Miller claiming in this setup. He calls the benefit a 'very niche' scenario. Red text: Having outlined why it's barely beneficial if at all to claim Miller, he leaps into categorically saying no-one should give miller claims any shit. Claims at the end he 'outlined all the reasons'. All the reasons? He clarified himself it would only help in a 'very niche scenario'. What gives? He then says mafia have no reason to fakeclaim miller. He's actively pushing this to discredit the notion. Blue text: Also see post below, but this looks like an attempt to halt any discussion of his miller claim. Because we're so busy on Night 0, right? Again with the blue text, pushing the idea that talking about his claim is a bad thing. To the bold and underlined: twice he says his claim is not a big deal. More language in the middle with 'or killing me, whatever'. Basically totally flippant and acting unconcerned about it. Look at the change in tone! From his original claim with his "hey, I guess I'll claim miller" casual attitude and subsequent post with the 'whatevers' and 'it's not a big deal' he fucking jumps down Toad's throat. Now he's again pushing the idea that even talking about his claim is a bad thing. He admits here that he forsaw people being suspicious of the claim. Yet in his original post, the only 'benefit' he saw was with a very niche day 5 cop scenario. RoL said elsewhere in his filter that we should be working off behavioural analysis. I agree. I'm not questioning the claim because he claimed Miller, I'm questioning how he's gone about it. Scum. He claimed to have his gun taken away, which is really suspicious as it sets him up to look exactly like a mafia goon (appears red and can't shoot), and it seems improbable that either mafia or sk would have this power. These things coupled with the fact that he hasn't been around for the entire night makes me doubt his claim. Would anybody else care to comment? The only downside I mentioned is if I claimed and instead of the town believing me or at least not questioning me that much until it was necessary that the entire town actually just called me scum for claiming or some other shenanigans. Even before I had my gun taken the entire discussion turned to me being a Miller and whether or not I was scum. As I said, the only downside is if you all chose to focus on me + the claim. Claiming puts pressure on me to play a really protown game which I intend to do when the day post comes. This downside depends on the towns attitude and whether or not you guys are stupid even to solely focus on me and my claim or actually do important shit. The actual benefits were in a few limited scenarios it would save a DT claiming and a wasted day shot which didn't depend on town stupidity but on how the game played out. I basically weighed the possible game outcome of the DT ending up checking me vs the odds of you all being dumb. Since town stupidity is something we can analyze and don't have to attribute to luck we can punish people for that, however if it comes down to the DT scenario or one like it it is completely luck based which would benefit the mafia. You guys are proving that I wagered wrong by focusing on this so much. The only time it deserved attention was when I claimed I didn't have a gun. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
The town can feel free to give input on this, but I want to hear each one of you tell me why I should kill the other. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
It would of been analytical gold for me, but I'm sure I wouldn't live until it became useful if I tried it. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 14 2012 22:09 Toadesstern wrote: in this setup 1 guy is enough to kill me. I doubt Supersoft would kill me without town agreeing to it but RoL is crazy no matter of alignment Hey! That's....hmm... alright. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 14 2012 22:29 rastaban wrote: ROL can't shoot anyway, he just admitted he didn't get it back yet, I was actually surprised he thought he would. I assumed that if had legitimately lost his gun on a temporary basis it would work like a mis fire so it takes 1 day to renew (today) and then tomorrow it would be available again. I figured if it was an SK power that its purpose was to give the SK enough time to kill a person before it could kill them. I didn't think it would last for multiple days because I judging by some of the other roles powers can't be used multiple times in a row on the same person, I wrongly took that to the next level and assumed I would have my gun back after a day. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 14 2012 09:00 talismania wrote: Ok I re-read. Gonzaw had the right idea - this is the weirdest contradiction in the whole thread: I didn't even realize when I skimmed the thread the first time that it went in this order too. First he was for wbg shooting gonzaw, then he was "not really seeing him as mafia" (paraphrase) and saying that "he doesn't seem scum at all". I thought it had gone in the other direction, but this way is just plain strange. More telling is the composition of the first post. He starts with the "I agree with this" and then it's like in his head he went "oh crap I can't just make a post that only says that" and added a bunch of meaningless filler with classic exhorting town to action stuff. The only actionable thing that post does is support the wbg plan, the rest is fluff. So Rastaban is not mafia. Medics and Mafia can play with that information as they will. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 03:08 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Nice out of context kita, pretty much all of those are actually directed at supersoft. His refusal to actually shoot payl when the chips were down was a definetely part of me shooting him. Also lovin how you're jumping right into the game now kita, what are your thoughs so far (and your theory that I was scared of you is ludicrous lol). Alright lets make this simple. Shooting right at the day post was absolutely retarded. To make matters worse you shot the only person who pegged a scum based off some paranoid theory that he could be the godfather. Mafia with a 4 player team would likely play way more conservative with their players then that, especially considering the mafia we killed could of fired a shot from stealing my gun and ended the day right there anyway. It would of been stupid for supersoft as godfather to do that when there was a much better option in making talismania shoot someone and piss away a day cycle. Then again, your action as mafia wouldn't make sense either. You know how shitty you would look by doing that and that we would likely punish you for it. The only conclusion I can draw is that you are the SK and you needed to use your day shot or risk modkill. Instead of being confirmed like maybe you had hoped you just look like shit. So anyway, I will shoot Meapak tomorrow. I know he's a better play then to pull that shit as town and it only makes sense for the SK to do. My only question is if you guys think I should kill him immediately at day post or wait? I will do it at towns discretion. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 08:01 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: If you shoot me you're just compounding my error. I'm going to be out for a few hours, when I get back I'll write up some cases on my reads. I again ask the thread in general, do you actually have a case against me aside from the fact that I fucked up? So far there has been resounding silence in from all those pushing for my death. Take emotion out of this for a moment and think about what I've said. My reasoning is not crazy, my motives are pretty apparent, the only thing I should have done differently was not shoot so early and talk it out with a few people first. We're all pissed, now let's calm down and keep playing, he gave us a great place to start. I've seen a lot of "meapak isn't that stupid," since kita brought up last game I'll just say a word about that: VE. You're trying to crucify me over one mistake and justify it using skill level which is retarded. Please make an actual case as to why I'm scum. When you fuck up that bad and in that way it leaves only one conclusion regardless of your perceived skill level. Your skill level just compounds that error. Keep in mind if you were SK you probably would of felt you NEEDED to shoot before anyone else. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 11:46 Ace wrote: Ignore the part of the role PM that says the SK has to shoot at Night or Day. Err, care to elaborate a bit? I'm assuming you added flexibility to that, otherwise you would make it so any SK would risk getting modkilled by trying to use their day shot? | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 09:25 layabout wrote: I think we should make use of the daytime before shooting. I doubt that Meapak is a godfather. + Show Spoiler + I think it has already been said but talismania's role makes the existence of a godfather role very unlikely (although set-up speculation and trying to second guess the host is a little dodgy). When you consider the power of the godfather role one can't help but feel that Meapak being a godfather would be absurd.( A godfather can daykill town to end the day and use their nightkill.) I doubt that Meapak is the SK. + Show Spoiler + If there was no medic protect then i fail to see why Meapak would do what he did as an SK. If no one claims a medic protect then it is unlikely that he is an SK. If that is the case then Meapak is probably town. + Show Spoiler + His shot was reckless and recklessness is more of a town trait than a mafia one This is because mafia often feel like have to act carefully and think things through thoroughly before acting 1. Godfather role probably exists. I don't know why anyone would think Talismania's role excludes the possibility of a godfather. That is retarded. 2. I explained why this would be a dipshit mafia move. I'm not going to do it again. 3. If there WAS a medic protect then it would clear meapak from being the SK. No one claimed it though. If there is NOT a medic protection then it could mean the SK held his hit, either that or the mafia + SK hit the same person. Unlikely. You are wrong. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 16 2012 07:22 layabout wrote: anyway stuff that. Stealing RoL's gun made RoL look very bad since we where unaware of that mechanic. Talismana's flip has made RoL extremely difficult to lynch, and mafia will have known his flip would have caused this, thus the only time mafia could have pushed him would be before talismania dies. Since mafia would be unable to predict the time of his death it would make sense for them to try to lynch RoL early on. One player has ade it his mission to do just that and so; My Finger of suspicion + Show Spoiler + insert slight immature giggling here at the word "finger" + Show Spoiler + and insert is pointed firmly at Mr. Wiggles + Show Spoiler + Early on he spends time discussiung stragety with VE. He advocates millers claiming. He seems very concerned about wasting cycles by letting players shoot recklessly. He agrees with those voicing suspicions against gonzaw commenting about how he shouldn't be focussed on defending himself but on hunting scum. He suggests searching for another suspicios player to shoot gonzaw or for gonzaw to shoot. He stresses the importance of RoL proving that he doesn't have a gun. He says that if RoL does not prove he cannot shoot then they should kill him. (RoL had said that he would be absent so it's possible that he may have done this to push someone else into shooting RoL while he could not respond). He re-explains this point in a few posts and stresses that if he is lying then they should kill RoL*. *Note: Since the thread can verify whether or not RoL has a gun ("prove it by typing the command or we shoot you") it makes absolutely no sense for RoL to be lying. So this posturing is worth next to nothing. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=725&topic_id=340480 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=15088363 He is around at the end of the day. Surprise surprise RoL was not lying. The thread is focussed on choosing between Payl Toad and Zentor. There are threats flying around. The thread is disordered and chaotic. Explanations have been flung out of the window and people are shoving their guns in each others faces and exchanging insults about their respective parentage. Wiggles seems oblivious to all of this and pushes RoL. What is strange is that if wiggles advocated shooting him if he was lying and shooting him if he wasn't lying why it took so long for him to get round to telling the thread that he thuoght they should shoot him. He also does not stick around to weigh in on what was happening (the shot "decision" restore order or try redirect attention to his case. Key points:
This is an interesting analysis. I particularly like how you focus on how Wiggles is seemingly using game mechanics only the mafia are aware of in his reasoning for attempting kills. I think that is suspicious because its inferring that Wiggles has knowledge of my situation and the nature of it. The way you post about him talking about the Miller plan is interesting. I want to look over those posts carefully and see if I see how he species the claiming should be done. I admittedly fucked up my claim timing, but it would be nice to see how Wiggles suggests doing it. Any mafia who knows of Talismania's role would obviously be in favor of using a Miller claim to force a bad lynch through gun stealing and making the Miller unable to prove himself while also allowing one of the Red's to gain a gun which could throw off DT checks/sanities later on. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 13:09 MrZentor wrote: How is it likely that there's a godfather? If the mafia has a godfather, with Talis's ability, they could shoot four days straight. With two kills each night, that means 12 dead people without the town being able to do anything. If they started on day 3, they could easily wipe out the rest of the town. There is no way there's a godfather. Talismania's role hinges on him being able to pick someone out who has a gun. The Godfather would have to shoot day 1, he would have to pick a gun and shoot day 2, then there is a cooldown on being able to shoot iirc. Two days. The mafia in this game comprise around 20% of the town and the majority of us have guns. It's likely they were given some way to boost KP. Plus mafia needs a way to do those day kills without us noticing or they basically sacrifice themselves at the next day post when we can shoot them. Can I kill Meapak now, or what? | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 13:13 kitaman27 wrote: Dirty afk scum. @Zentor, it seems as if talismania's role was one-shot, no? You know wiggles is dead, right RoL? Back in a bit. LOL ignore that. I skimmed earlier today and noticed we a cycle go by quickly but forgot who was killed in it. I had a page open that was like 6-7 pages old and I read that so I responded. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 13:17 MrZentor wrote: Even if it were one shot, with the godfather, 9 people could die without the town being able to "lynch" anybody. That's 60% of the townspeople. I don't think the worst case scenario is that likely with medics + SK flying around. Mafia numbers could get taken down pretty quickly. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 13:21 MrZentor wrote: I guess it's possible that there's a godfather, but I doubt he would do something as obviously scummy as shooting a confirmed townsperson a few minutes into the day. I agree. I never thought meapak was the GF though. That would be dumb as shit. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 13:23 MrZentor wrote: Then why would you kill him? >.< SK makes more sense. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 13:28 MrZentor wrote: But he can't be because of this. Unless the host is purposely trying to trick us, there would be no reason to say this if the the SK had just shot during the day. It seems way more probable that the SK was holding his night kill, planning on killing during the day, but was ninja'd by MZ. I have no idea why you shot him. Well that makes sense. I was wrongfully hinging part of my analysis off of that weird mechanic in the role PM. But I that wasn't solely the reason. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
| ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 17 2012 14:02 Kenpachi wrote: i feel like, Kitaman is the 4th mafia. Care to post some reasoning my good friend? | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 22 2012 16:14 rastaban wrote: YAY!!!!! Thanks ROL for the win, So glad I saved you N0  ....TEAMWORK? Me and Rastaban actually planned this entire end game out since day 1. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 23 2012 05:10 Kenpachi wrote: something about this game really made me lurk harder than ever. might be cause i had a gun and i didnt even get to use it -_- I should of shot you. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 24 2012 04:05 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: The biggest mistake I made was not shooting supersoft right away. I just thought I could goad someone else into doing it. If there's one thing that lost us the game it was my miscalculation there. If you want to argue your case had weight, fine. But shooting in the way you did, at the person you did, at the timing you did it was terribly antitown which is why you got shot. | ||
|
RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
On June 24 2012 10:15 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Exactly my point. I should have shot supersoft before he shot talisman. The way I ended up doing it was horrible but supersoft had to die. He had our entire team. I know everything about my shot was bad but I felt that it was better than the alternatives. I don't think he had to die, by killing him you'd give what he said validity. I mean, no one reread it from what I saw so that didn't matter, but it probably would of been better to use your shot to confirm yourself by doing something for the town and pseudo confirming yourself. | ||
| ||
