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While I agree that Toad's plan was inherently flawed, I think there were some good points..
Millers should claim, and we should force them to shoot. Later we can sort out any false claims etc... but it gets us started in the right direction. I agree there could be more than 1 miller so the self shooting is a bad thing and will have us ending up with 2 wasted lynches.
I am worried that our day 1 shot is going to happen within 5 minutes of daytime as people try to make a point to get themselves remembered for shooting X as soon as the game started for teh LOLz. Lets step away from this, while anyone can kill I think we need to at least start off with in-thread voting before the shot is fired, and if we can have the millers doing it until they have all shot so much the better.
If we can get the miller claims into the open (assuming there are some) and then have them do our designated shooting for us for the first cycle or two we not only gain some information on them, but also on the discussion about who they should be shooting.
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I just don't know if we can really figure out millers easily with a possible GF that can shoot and maybe a framer around.
Remeber what the framer was like from PYP for example:Framer:
You can target one target per night and make them appear as whatever role and alignment you wish. In addition, you may plant incriminating evidence on a player, making them appear to have visited target player at night.
Yeah that was a special framer but neither do we know if we have a tracker nor do we know if the hosts considered something like that as well if they chose to give us a tracker (especially if it's tracker INSTEAD of DT)
Not sure if Millers should claim at all. That's going to be confusion and I'm not sure we're able to figure stuff out easily yet, maybe even wasting a couple of cycles to figure this stuff out when we could just play normal.
With DTs being not sane 100% there won't be a situation where the DT claimes d2 and says "sup guys I found red in XXX" because he can't be sure of his sanity.
I'd say with the possibility of framers, Millers are best to shut up and just play normal. If a DT happens to check them, whatever. That's not a tell for the DT at all until he sees multiple people flip and the chances for a check on a miller are quite low to begin with. Yeah that's speculation but the whole point of making millers claim is flawed if there are framers and we just change the one problem with another one that is about equally likely to give us some issues.
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On June 11 2012 22:54 Toadesstern wrote:I just don't know if we can really figure out millers easily with a possible GF that can shoot and maybe a framer around. Remeber what the framer was like from PYP for example: Show nested quote +Framer:
You can target one target per night and make them appear as whatever role and alignment you wish. In addition, you may plant incriminating evidence on a player, making them appear to have visited target player at night. Yeah that was a special framer but neither do we know if we have a tracker nor do we know if the hosts considered something like that as well if they chose to give us a tracker (especially if it's tracker INSTEAD of DT) Not sure if Millers should claim at all. That's going to be confusion and I'm not sure we're able to figure stuff out easily yet, maybe even wasting a couple of cycles to figure this stuff out when we could just play normal. With DTs being not sane 100% there won't be a situation where the DT claimes d2 and says "sup guys I found red in XXX" because he can't be sure of his sanity. I'd say with the possibility of framers, Millers are best to shut up and just play normal. If a DT happens to check them, whatever. That's not a tell for the DT at all until he sees multiple people flip and the chances for a check on a miller are quite low to begin with. Yeah that's speculation but the whole point of making millers claim is flawed if there are framers and we just change the one problem with another one that is about equally likely to give us some issues.
No, we don't need to sort them out yet we can worry about that later but they do need to claim now. I am not worried about getting them confirmed as town, I want as much information in towns hands as possible to work with and then we go from there.
Allow me to quote are illustrious host Ace from the recent Policy Lynch thread
2.) In a setup with self-aware Millers, anyone that is caught by a Detective and claims Miller should be policy lynched. A self-aware Miller is Town, and on Day 1 should claim Miller immediately. They might still be lynched but this gives the Town a much easier path days ahead.
With that in mind let me categorically state I will shoot anyone claiming miller after our starting phase, as there is no need whatsoever to keep it hidden from town. We need to get the millers outed anyway so out investigative roles don't waste time on them yet. Claiming miller doesn't make them confirmed but it at least removes that option from the mafia's playbooks when they get detected and they try and keep us from lynching them. Also the moment we lynch the GF any remaining ones who have fired are pretty much confirmed anyway (though nearly anyone who had fired would be at that point as well).
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EBWOP Are = Our, bah newbie mistake 
I didn't see it in the OP, is there a post requirement? I assume not for days, since they could end so quickly, but for nights it would be nice.
Otherwise we may need to policy shoot them since they won't get removed from the game for not not posting at all.
Last thing, I say we vote for 48 hour days, I can't see this ever helping the Mafia, only town. We can end it early by shooting sooner, which will probably occur most of the time but if we get to LYLO (SHLO??) we may be best served by having more time to review the game before making that final shot.
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Yeah I agree we should shoot people claiming miller after being caught by a DT but I think that's still the lesser bad thing that can happen.
I agree that making them claim in theory should be best but I just don't think we can controle the situation. What happens if we have multiple millers? We have people like gonzaw screaming for people to shoot into either one because clearly there can't be more than 1 miller in a semi-big game according to him (lol), that's going to be really hard and a shitton of confusion.
If town manages to leave the millers be for a couple of hours and play normal with those claims fine, let them claim.
If town is not able to get that and everyone's focusing on figuring that out when all we need to figure that out is playing normal instead of doing the statistic game (in a CLOSED setup).
And honestly I see us doing a retarded shot d1 because of the miller claims that way. That may or may not hit mafia but it's going to be retarded and not thought trough unless gonzaws assumptions that there can't be more than 1 miller in this set-up
is right.
So yeah, obviously lynching a miller is bad but I fear that if we get multiple claims d1 we'll have a total shitstorm that might cost us more than just one cycle, even with gonzaw, myself and VE promising to not post for 24 hours.
Just as you said. What happens if we really have 2 millers? Gonzaw tells the guy to shoot #1 miller, that guy flips town miller, we shoot #2 the next cycle and that guy flips town as well? We're screwed if that happens.
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yeah agree on the 48 hour part. There's no need to make it 24. If we need the 48 we take the full 48h. If we don't we end it early ourselves.
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
I'm happy with longer days. I don't think my brain works quickly enough for the shorter ones.
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I'm happy with the game as written. I don't forsee the days lasting very long.
Marvel, are you going to help me find and eliminate scum?
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On June 12 2012 00:04 VisceraEyes wrote:
I'm happy with the game as written. I don't forsee the days lasting very long.
Marvel, are you going to help me find and eliminate scum?
Naturally. And as a token of my love I won't shoot you at the start of day 1.
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Thank goodness.
If you wanna kick things off by starting a Toadesstern wagon, I'll join you in a bit and we can determine through pressure whether or not the guy is scum. Ready? Break!
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Gosh, I'm not ready to actually DO anything yet.
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With that in mind let me categorically state I will shoot anyone claiming miller after our starting phase
Is anybody else bothered by this?
There's no reason you should "veto" a decision because you can shoot.
Regardless of the topic, it stunts discussion, which is really scummy.
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On June 12 2012 00:22 MrZentor wrote:Show nested quote +With that in mind let me categorically state I will shoot anyone claiming miller after our starting phase Is anybody else bothered by this? There's no reason you should "veto" a decision because you can shoot. Regardless of the topic, it stunts discussion, which is really scummy.
the point is that every mafia can "just" claim miller AFTER someone got a red check on them (obviously not takling about d1) and therefore we can't allow people to just claim miller if in danger because that could be a legit way for mafia to get out of the way and make them look townish.
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On June 12 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:22 MrZentor wrote:With that in mind let me categorically state I will shoot anyone claiming miller after our starting phase Is anybody else bothered by this? There's no reason you should "veto" a decision because you can shoot. Regardless of the topic, it stunts discussion, which is really scummy. the point is that every mafia can "just" claim miller AFTER someone got a red check on them (obviously not takling about d1) and therefore we can't allow people to just claim miller if in danger because that could be a legit way for mafia to get out of the way and make them look townish.
Eh... even if we didn't agree for millers to claim day 1, then doing so hardly makes someone look townish. That's what you look at their play for, to see if it makes sense or not.
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@gonzaw I'm surprised you're asking millers to claim and then shoot day 1 when it's just as good to have millers claim day 1 and then you yourself volunteer to shoot day 1.
Since you yourself did not volunteer immediately to shoot on day 1, I was wondering if you'd like to start us off by shooting on day 1.
In this game, to find 3 out of the 4 mafia, I feel like it's pretty easy. We just force the person we think is the most suspicious to shoot the person THEY think is most suspicious. If they can shoot, they are not one of the three regular mafia. The only anti-town that gets out of this is the GF and the SK but they should be easy to narrow down when we combine this method with regular analysis.
If they can't shoot, then they are either mafia or blue.
In terms of blue roles, I actually don't think they matter that much this game and I'd totally be ok with any blue role that gets suspected and put on the spot to shoot to just claim. RB is nerfed this game to only be able to roleblock the same person on every other night so that means mafia can't just nilly willy claim blue and then when they don't die to mafia gunfire for a few days, get off scott free.
So basically it goes discussion--->decide who is "most suspicious"--->force them to shoot who THEY think is most suspicious--->if they can't shoot, they will be forced to claim--->we then decide if the claim is valid or not--->shoot if we don't think the claim is valid.
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On June 12 2012 00:38 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 00:22 MrZentor wrote:With that in mind let me categorically state I will shoot anyone claiming miller after our starting phase Is anybody else bothered by this? There's no reason you should "veto" a decision because you can shoot. Regardless of the topic, it stunts discussion, which is really scummy. the point is that every mafia can "just" claim miller AFTER someone got a red check on them (obviously not takling about d1) and therefore we can't allow people to just claim miller if in danger because that could be a legit way for mafia to get out of the way and make them look townish. Eh... even if we didn't agree for millers to claim day 1, then doing so hardly makes someone look townish. That's what you look at their play for, to see if it makes sense or not.
exactly. what I'm saying with my post before that. We need to play normal instead of focussing on millers because frankly with framers and gfs running around I don't see an easy way to figure them out (easy = not normal analysis, but instead something that works right off the bat). So what I meant and is that a miller claim afterwards should not be a reason to consider someone a townie. If you make someone claim he obviously got pressure and therefore you considered lynching / shooting him prior to the claim. A miller claim should not be treated as alignment indicating either way, which results in shooting them if you thought he's mafia prior to the claim.
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On June 12 2012 01:03 chaoser wrote:
@gonzaw I'm surprised you're asking millers to claim and then shoot day 1 when it's just as good to have millers claim day 1 and then you yourself volunteer to shoot day 1.
Since you yourself did not volunteer immediately to shoot on day 1, I was wondering if you'd like to start us off by shooting on day 1.
In this game, to find 3 out of the 4 mafia, I feel like it's pretty easy. We just force the person we think is the most suspicious to shoot the person THEY think is most suspicious. If they can shoot, they are not one of the three regular mafia. The only anti-town that gets out of this is the GF and the SK but they should be easy to narrow down when we combine this method with regular analysis.
If they can't shoot, then they are either mafia or blue.
In terms of blue roles, I actually don't think they matter that much this game and I'd totally be ok with any blue role that gets suspected and put on the spot to shoot to just claim. RB is nerfed this game to only be able to roleblock the same person on every other night so that means mafia can't just nilly willy claim blue and then when they don't die to mafia gunfire for a few days, get off scott free.
So basically it goes discussion--->decide who is "most suspicious"--->force them to shoot who THEY think is most suspicious--->if they can't shoot, they will be forced to claim--->we then decide if the claim is valid or not--->shoot if we don't think the claim is valid.
Nice plan, the 3 scum get 3 free town deaths with this.
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On June 12 2012 01:05 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 00:38 marvellosity wrote:On June 12 2012 00:35 Toadesstern wrote:On June 12 2012 00:22 MrZentor wrote:With that in mind let me categorically state I will shoot anyone claiming miller after our starting phase Is anybody else bothered by this? There's no reason you should "veto" a decision because you can shoot. Regardless of the topic, it stunts discussion, which is really scummy. the point is that every mafia can "just" claim miller AFTER someone got a red check on them (obviously not takling about d1) and therefore we can't allow people to just claim miller if in danger because that could be a legit way for mafia to get out of the way and make them look townish. Eh... even if we didn't agree for millers to claim day 1, then doing so hardly makes someone look townish. That's what you look at their play for, to see if it makes sense or not. exactly. what I'm saying with my post before that. We need to play normal instead of focussing on millers because frankly with framers and gfs running around I don't see an easy way to figure them out (easy = not normal analysis, but instead something that works right off the bat). So what I meant and is that a miller claim afterwards should not be a reason to consider someone a townie. If you make someone claim he obviously got pressure and therefore you considered lynching / shooting him prior to the claim. A miller claim should not be treated as alignment indicating either way, which results in shooting them if you thought he's mafia prior to the claim.
Exactly, Millers can claim now (what I prefer as it gives us information now), or they can not claim (as Toad prefers as the confusion may stifle real discussion). Later in the game someone we are suspicious of is checked by a cop and shows red, he then claims miller. He still gets shot as the time for claiming has past and it gives mafia an out.
On June 12 2012 01:10 marvellosity wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 01:03 chaoser wrote:
@gonzaw I'm surprised you're asking millers to claim and then shoot day 1 when it's just as good to have millers claim day 1 and then you yourself volunteer to shoot day 1.
Since you yourself did not volunteer immediately to shoot on day 1, I was wondering if you'd like to start us off by shooting on day 1.
In this game, to find 3 out of the 4 mafia, I feel like it's pretty easy. We just force the person we think is the most suspicious to shoot the person THEY think is most suspicious. If they can shoot, they are not one of the three regular mafia. The only anti-town that gets out of this is the GF and the SK but they should be easy to narrow down when we combine this method with regular analysis.
If they can't shoot, then they are either mafia or blue.
In terms of blue roles, I actually don't think they matter that much this game and I'd totally be ok with any blue role that gets suspected and put on the spot to shoot to just claim. RB is nerfed this game to only be able to roleblock the same person on every other night so that means mafia can't just nilly willy claim blue and then when they don't die to mafia gunfire for a few days, get off scott free.
So basically it goes discussion--->decide who is "most suspicious"--->force them to shoot who THEY think is most suspicious--->if they can't shoot, they will be forced to claim--->we then decide if the claim is valid or not--->shoot if we don't think the claim is valid. Nice plan, the 3 scum get 3 free town deaths with this.
Scum (except GF) can't shoot so no they don't. However I don't know about the plan of having them shoot whoever they think is most suspicious. If they are town and are in that spot they have most likely been playing sub-optimally (the reason they are in this spot to begin with) so having them make the call seems like it could wind up with us losing more obvious townies. Maybe they shoot the second most suspicious person. Its like a duel where the 2 most suspicious people have to shoot it out and if one is mafia 3/4ths of the time he doesn't have a gun to shoot back with.
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Nice plan, the 3 scum get 3 free town deaths with this.
How do scum get three free deaths?
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United Kingdom36156 Posts
Ah, rastaban. Apparently I do not read setup.
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EPT
