My biggest scum-read right now is in fact Acid. Looking through his posts the first thing that jumps out is simply lurking. He has been lurking this entire game, with few posts, even fewer posts of any significant length by him, and even fewer posts in which he is directly addressing or responding to others, something scum love as they get to look like they're making content without ever calling anyone out or putting themselves in a situation where they might get directly called out.
Now why would you go and and lie like this? I have been active, and most of my posts have been addressing and responding to others. Also, if you look at the times at which I was inactive, you will notice a disturbing trend. My "lurking" happens between the hours of 2AM and 10AM, CET. I'm definitely pushing a scum agenda here, soon ALL OF YOU will live on French time and you will have nothing to eat but baguettes and fromage.
In a similar vein what content he has had has been the same in almost every single post, him tunneling acro/marvel. This tunneling began at the start of the game and hasn't abated, this is very big as it means that he gets to look like he's giving reads the whole time while he's really just repeating the same thing, this thing that also hasn't been the main topic of discussion so he never would end up in the spotlight. The biggest issue in this whole tunneling spree is that then at the end of day one the vote is between NT and Mouldy, Acid had expressed that he thought that NT and Marvel were scumbuddies yet when it's clear that a marvel lynch isn't going to happen and when NT is on the table he doesn't even attempt to move the vote. No he sits content to leave his vote somewhere where it can't do ANYTHING, washing him of any possible guilt for a mislynch of either candidate.
You're right, my tunneling hasn't abated at all, that's why when I was asked "who do you want to kill today?", I answered Zelblade, because obviously accusing Zelblade is the best way to get marvellosity lynched. I also haven't said one word about marvellosity since he finally answered my challenge. A more clever man would have deduced that his answer satisfied me for the time being. At the end of day one, I thought that my marvellosity vote would gain traction for a while, starting with VE. I also stated a couple times that I thought marvellosity was a better lynch than NT. By the time it was clear that it wasn't going to happen, Jeb had like five more votes than NT, so yeah I could've moved my vote around for nothing. Instead I stuck to my guns and pressured marvellosity, which led to him posting more and started an interesting discussion.
And looking at his most recent post and one of the only posts of his with any reads that aren't marv/NT (maybe the ONLY post) he goes for literally the easiest reads possible, a couple of lurkers who he gives one line on about them lurking and ONE of WBG/VE because it would be too much work to even decide between that.
I haven't decided yet because I don't have enough information. You're free to throw ignorant accusations into the wind if you like, I'd rather wait until I can make a logical decision.
Finally as if this all wasn't enough,
It most certainly is not.
after looking through Acid's stuff and concluding much of this, I also looked at ET's filter as promised and found something very interesting. Our resident just-killed townie's largest (Okay maybe second largest) post was an accusation of the one and only Acid. Now this post was a night-time accusation so it didn't draw much attention (if it had I suspect ET would be alive right now) which meant that if say, he had been correct and accused scum they would feel okay shooting him for it as no one really noticed the accusation.
Yeah his post didn't draw much attention. Could've been because it was a night post. Could've been because I wasted no time ripping it apart for the pile of bullshit it was. Another instance of me "not responding" to other players, I guess. So yeah, after such an exchange, I felt so pressured that I directed my scumbuddies to shoot the guy in the night, hoping that somehow no one would notice the accusation (I mean, it's not like there's a permanent record of who says what, right?) and I could ride off into the sunset with a piña colada and no one would be none the wiser.
I mean look at why ET was killed,
Yes, let's.
he seemed town and was playing well as far as I can tell and those very probably contributed to his death
Two posts. One where he called out acrofales, which was good, and one where he accused me, which wasn't so much. And then he voted Jeb. He wasn't killed because he was a good townie.
but vets are viewed very highly in these games, so much that it's surprising that both of them are alive even by day two, it's strange that the scum didn't shoot one of the two people who as scumhunters would presumably be their biggest threats,
It's so sad, because you start out with a good train of thought. Let's cut off your inane conclusion and just ponder the bolded part for a while. This makes it clear to me that at least one of them is scum. Mafia up against two veteran townies would definitely have killed one of them. In a balanced situation, then they have to choose. They could go for the vet, but VE claimed town and he also said he didn't expect to live through the night, a not so subtle Medic call. So they can risk wasting a night kill to try and hit a vet, or they can go for an unexpected target and hope they hit a special role. Of course, if both the vets are mafia then it's a no-brainer.
and one thing that could very much have influenced this choice is if someone else who was playing well also hit on a scum with a good case.
Bolded the funny parts.
Thus - ##Vote Acid~ QED
This piece of fiction fails to present us with a compelling main character, the story structure is incoherent and full of plot holes, and the anticlimactic finale doesn't deliver on what seemed at first glance to be a promising premise.
On May 24 2012 17:44 wherebugsgo wrote: Is he gone?
<peeks around a corner>
Anyway if Acid never responds, we kill him.
To make that threat more real, let's turn up the heat.
##vote Acid~
Nova, do you support a lynch of any of Acid, zealos, or Tunkeg?
Fine, I'll respond. I don't think I would lynch Tunkeg today. There's nothing about his play that seems scummy to me. Zealos, that might happen if you could make a real case against him.
On May 24 2012 18:49 wherebugsgo wrote: I already explained why my vote is on Acid.
If the threat isn't real then what's the point of trying to consolidate town? If a player is not willing to even answer a simple question then the easiest way to deal with them is to kill them.
On May 24 2012 17:44 wherebugsgo wrote: Is he gone?
<peeks around a corner>
Anyway if Acid never responds, we kill him.
To make that threat more real, let's turn up the heat.
##vote Acid~
Nova, do you support a lynch of any of Acid, zealos, or Tunkeg?
Fine, I'll respond. I don't think I would lynch Tunkeg today. There's nothing about his play that seems scummy to me. Zealos, that might happen if you could make a real case against him.
As opposed to my fake case you mean?
Not what I meant. I'll go and read yours real quick.
On May 24 2012 17:44 wherebugsgo wrote: Is he gone?
<peeks around a corner>
Anyway if Acid never responds, we kill him.
To make that threat more real, let's turn up the heat.
##vote Acid~
Nova, do you support a lynch of any of Acid, zealos, or Tunkeg?
Fine, I'll respond. I don't think I would lynch Tunkeg today. There's nothing about his play that seems scummy to me. Zealos, that might happen if you could make a real case against him.
As opposed to my fake case you mean?
After reading both your case and Zealos's filter, I wouldn't say your case is fake, but it's a little on the weak side. I would much rather get rid of either Zelblade or Katina.
Of the two, I think Zelblade is more dangerous. He hasn't posted a single analysis or scumread and was content with bandwagoning Mouldy Jeb.
On May 25 2012 01:43 wherebugsgo wrote: Do any of you ever stop to think why Zealos may be impervious to a wagon?
Stop to think of why he may not be getting as many votes as we want him to.
Stop and reread his posts.
Instead of talking cryptically, why not just say exactly what you mean?
I think it's pretty clear what he means : there are 3 scumbags who won't vote for their pal and a bunch of clueless townies who can't tell one end of their asshole from the other.
On May 25 2012 01:53 wherebugsgo wrote: Marvellosity you just have to read my posts. I'm not giving you nothing and you know that. I'm trying to lynch Zealos just as much as you are, but as long as other players are defending him indirectly by voting other players, but not calling him town, we can't get him killed.
Think about it, everyone calls him suspicious but their votes end up elsewhere.
VE at this point is just being annoying and confrontational. I don't particularly care right now why he keeps calling me scum, since he's obviously wrong, but if today's lynch does not fall on scum then I'll take the responsibility for the lynch.
You can lynch me after and town can lose.
I said I'd be OK for a Zealos lynch. I'm willing to change my vote from zelblade to Zealos if you can tell me why you think zelblade isn't scum.
On May 25 2012 01:53 wherebugsgo wrote: Marvellosity you just have to read my posts. I'm not giving you nothing and you know that. I'm trying to lynch Zealos just as much as you are, but as long as other players are defending him indirectly by voting other players, but not calling him town, we can't get him killed.
Think about it, everyone calls him suspicious but their votes end up elsewhere.
VE at this point is just being annoying and confrontational. I don't particularly care right now why he keeps calling me scum, since he's obviously wrong, but if today's lynch does not fall on scum then I'll take the responsibility for the lynch.
You can lynch me after and town can lose.
I said I'd be OK for a Zealos lynch. I'm willing to change my vote from zelblade to Zealos if you can tell me why you think zelblade isn't scum.
Whether or not Zealos is scum at this point has absolutely nothing to do with zelblade's alignment and therefore I'm obligated to do anything for you in terms of showing you that zelblade is town or whatever.
Either you think Zealos is scum or not. Right now I don't feel like sparing very much effort since there's no point when more than half of you don't read to begin with.
And I'm not obligated to follow your directions. Who made you king of the fucking hill? My strongest scumread is Zelblade right now and I intend to push for his death unless someone either
1. makes a case for zelblade's innocence (good luck) 2. makes a stronger case for another lynch
As I said, the case against Zealos is not inexistant, but it's not strong either.
On May 25 2012 01:53 wherebugsgo wrote: Marvellosity you just have to read my posts. I'm not giving you nothing and you know that. I'm trying to lynch Zealos just as much as you are, but as long as other players are defending him indirectly by voting other players, but not calling him town, we can't get him killed.
Think about it, everyone calls him suspicious but their votes end up elsewhere.
VE at this point is just being annoying and confrontational. I don't particularly care right now why he keeps calling me scum, since he's obviously wrong, but if today's lynch does not fall on scum then I'll take the responsibility for the lynch.
You can lynch me after and town can lose.
I said I'd be OK for a Zealos lynch. I'm willing to change my vote from zelblade to Zealos if you can tell me why you think zelblade isn't scum.
Whether or not Zealos is scum at this point has absolutely nothing to do with zelblade's alignment and therefore I'm obligated to do anything for you in terms of showing you that zelblade is town or whatever.
Either you think Zealos is scum or not. Right now I don't feel like sparing very much effort since there's no point when more than half of you don't read to begin with.
And I'm not obligated to follow your directions. Who made you king of the fucking hill? My strongest scumread is Zelblade right now and I intend to push for his death unless someone either
1. makes a case for zelblade's innocence (good luck) 2. makes a stronger case for another lynch
As I said, the case against Zealos is not inexistant, but it's not strong either.
You realize that in order to kill someone in this game, you have to convince them of your correctness?
In other words if you want us to kill zelblade over zealos then you should convince us to kill him instead of telling us to convince you to not kill zelblade.
It's called burden of proof; the burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion. If you make the assertion that zelblade is scum, then YOU should be the one to explain it. No one is obligated to show you why zelblade is innocent or whatever. As town I don't even know if zelblade is innocent.
Anyway, the case on Zealos has already been put forth; read Marvellosity's filter. If you don't want to do that then I don't see how you expect to win, as reading is mandatory to do almost anything else in a game of mafia.
You call the zealos case not strong. What parts of it are weak?
I have made my case against zelblade. It's pretty fucking straightforward and I made it in direct reply to a question you asked me, so I would assume you've read it. Practice what you preach. Zelblade lurked for most of the game, never tried to scumhunt, never shared reads or offered anything of value to the town in any way whatsoever. His sole contribution to the thread so far has been to vote for Jeb. Did you read his case for Jeb? Here it is, in all its glory :
On May 23 2012 00:00 zelblade wrote:
I still think nova is scummy. But mouldy more so. Agree with marv's case generally.
Now, this a call to ALL TOWNIES : read zelblade's filter. ALL OF IT. It won't take long, there's barely a page and that alone tells you more than you need to know.
Hey, if you think the case against Zealos isn't strong, than why. You don't actually mention anything wrong with the case. All you do is keep saying "i'm ok with him. but the case isn't strong" over and over.
How to explain this... The case against Zealos is made up of bits and pieces. A quote here, a quote there, someone pointed out inconsistencies and so on, but there is no big thing. If you take every single point in a vacuum, none of them scream "SCUM!"
And, looking at the big picture, it's hard to see the scum agenda that should normally be revealed in a situation like this. No one has been able to answer a very simple question that I shouldn't even have to ask.
"If Zealos is scum, what is he trying to achieve by playing this way? How is this playstyle going to lead the mafia to a victory?"
Now, if you looks at zelblade's posting, sure there's only one thing wrong. But it's a big thing. It's a five by itself. And if we were to ask the same questions of zelblade, answers are easily found. As a scum he has everything to gain by playing this way, especially if he has a special power to use at night.
On May 25 2012 04:45 Navillus wrote: Could we get a vote-count up in here?
But what interested me is I think there is definitely a stronger case to be made on Acid than on Zealos or Zelblade, (haven't looked into him yet, give me a little time for that) he made one response, and now no one is voting or pressuring him. So I'd like to ask, Mattchew and Marvel what are your reads on Acid right now?
So, you haven't looked into me, but you still managed to find a stronger case on me than on both scums the town is looking at? Care to share how exactly you arrived at that conclusion?
Oh no, wait, you already told us in the mother of all wall of texts, filled with letters yet devoid of content. I responded to that post, and you in turn did not respond. You come back and try again like nothing happened, but you bring nothing new to the table.
Also, marvel litterally just posted his read on me. It's right there, man.
Anyway...
What is the purpose of your post? If you're town and still think I'm scum, you should be making a case against me, starting by picking apart my response to your original accusation. Except you can't do that, because you know your original accusation was bullshit. It didn't gain traction because townies saw it for the bullshit it was and scum went to find an easier target.
Hey, if you think the case against Zealos isn't strong, than why. You don't actually mention anything wrong with the case. All you do is keep saying "i'm ok with him. but the case isn't strong" over and over.
How to explain this... The case against Zealos is made up of bits and pieces. A quote here, a quote there, someone pointed out inconsistencies and so on, but there is no big thing. If you take every single point in a vacuum, none of them scream "SCUM!"
This is true in almost every single case where you find scum.
Unless scum are bad they don't leave massive trails that just lead back to them. Zealos is not a bad scum player in the least and if it were that easy to find scum we would've killed one yesterday.
And, looking at the big picture, it's hard to see the scum agenda that should normally be revealed in a situation like this. No one has been able to answer a very simple question that I shouldn't even have to ask.
"If Zealos is scum, what is he trying to achieve by playing this way? How is this playstyle going to lead the mafia to a victory?"
You're simply asserting here that it's hard to see the scum agenda. Scum don't like making cases because they already have information about who is town and who is not. Town will at the very least try to scumhunt. Zealos made no real attempt at that on day 1. He admitted himself he thought 13 players were town and one town but less so. That's just a massive cop out from calling anyone scum, a huge shirking of responsibility. It's a sign he doesn't know who to call out for fear of being caught.
Finally, what playstyle? It's not a simple question because the underlying assumptions aren't even properly stated. How can you define a player's playstyle so simply? We don't even know what you're asking.
Now, if you looks at zelblade's posting, sure there's only one thing wrong. But it's a big thing. It's a five by itself. And if we were to ask the same questions of zelblade, answers are easily found. As a scum he has everything to gain by playing this way, especially if he has a special power to use at night.
Going inactive and not scumhunting are about as antitown as you can get.
What I'm curious about is why you seem to assert that zelblade's inactivity is so much more incriminating of him than zealos. You haven't really justified anything you've said, just asserted it.
You're right, I wasn't actually trying to convince anyone here, just explaining my train of thought. Now keep in mind this is my first *TL* mafia and I don't know any of you. I don't know anyone's meta so my analysis is based entirely on what goes on in this thread and general knowledge about mafia games. Not knowing Zealos, to me he could be a confused or mediocre town player just as much as he could be scum. Zelblade, however, I feel he should be carrying a sign that says "please oh please god don't look at me I just want to live through this day so I can use my power at night".
Hey, if you think the case against Zealos isn't strong, than why. You don't actually mention anything wrong with the case. All you do is keep saying "i'm ok with him. but the case isn't strong" over and over.
How to explain this... The case against Zealos is made up of bits and pieces. A quote here, a quote there, someone pointed out inconsistencies and so on, but there is no big thing. If you take every single point in a vacuum, none of them scream "SCUM!"
And, looking at the big picture, it's hard to see the scum agenda that should normally be revealed in a situation like this. No one has been able to answer a very simple question that I shouldn't even have to ask.
"If Zealos is scum, what is he trying to achieve by playing this way? How is this playstyle going to lead the mafia to a victory?"
Now, if you looks at zelblade's posting, sure there's only one thing wrong. But it's a big thing. It's a five by itself. And if we were to ask the same questions of zelblade, answers are easily found. As a scum he has everything to gain by playing this way, especially if he has a special power to use at night.
I find this entire post deeply inconsistent. I have pointed out several times the scummy motivations for doing what Zealos did. Your justification on zelblade is so weak.
To the bold: so zelblade has some special power, and the best way to utilise it is... wait... it's coming.... I know! to say he's going to post reads and then not! That's sure to make him survive so he can use his powers!
-.-
Yeah, it's called stalling and so far it's working. He lived through day 1, and unless something happens it seems like he'll live through day 2. Look at it this way, let's assume that the Z's are both scum. Do you think they're both vanilla? If not, which one of them is more likely to have a special role?
On May 25 2012 05:36 Navillus wrote: To clarify I was referring to Zelblade when I said "haven't looked into him yet". I think I saw Marvel's read earlier looking at that... now. Okay I see it, he says he probably shouldn't have included you, that's not a very complete explanation of his thoughts on you, I'm not saying I think he thinks you're town, I'm saying I want to know all of what he thinks on you.
I didn't respond to your response first because as I think I pointed out somewhere it's rarely useful to get into an argument with the person you're accusing on whether they're scum, you're obviously not going to get them to concede anything and frankly I think VE/WBG and Hiro/Zealos had that ground covered, we didn't need another two players going back and forth on each other.
The purpose of this post isn't to make a case on you it's to look at other people and what they say on you, hence the question at the end, I'm curious as to whether the reason your case didn't gain much traction is because you're scum or because better townie's looked and don't think you're scum. (honestly I was leaning to the second one, that's why I asked two people who I think are town, if I thought it was more likely you being scum I would have asked my scum reads because that puts them in an awkward position if you are scum)
I said you were a stronger read than the other two in part because I'm slow to give up my reads (probably a problem with my play) and in part because if I had phrased it a lot less confidently it would have had even less of an impact. I'm explaining this all now because I admit I did like your response and it pushed you away from a scum read for me and after making that post I actually looked over you again (I noticed what Marvel said a little bit after making that post actually) and between your response and posts since I felt less scummy on you.
So if you're town then Acid I have a question for you, is your biggest scumread still Zelblade? Where would you place Zealos right now? Also what do you think of Froggy?
I have to say I'm kinda torn between the Z's. I'm leaning hard on scum for Zelblade, and let's say 60-40 scum for Zealos after WBG and marvel's replies (up from 50-50).
I'm gonna go read up on froggy and I'll get back to you on that.
You're right, I wasn't actually trying to convince anyone here, just explaining my train of thought. Now keep in mind this is my first *TL* mafia and I don't know any of you. I don't know anyone's meta so my analysis is based entirely on what goes on in this thread and general knowledge about mafia games. Not knowing Zealos, to me he could be a confused or mediocre town player just as much as he could be scum. Zelblade, however, I feel he should be carrying a sign that says "please oh please god don't look at me I just want to live through this day so I can use my power at night".
what exactly has zelblade done (other than lurking) that has said that?
Just out of curiosity
It's more like what he hasn't done. Specifically he hasn't questioned, challenged, or pressured anyone. He agreed with other people when they made such actions, but he originated nothing. He avoided confrontation and if you look at his posting, there is nothing there to work with, nothing to challenge, nothing to build upon. He votes on Jeb, because :
On May 23 2012 00:00 zelblade wrote:
I still think nova is scummy. But mouldy more so. Agree with marv's case generally.
No commitment, overly careful play. OK, so maybe the power thing is stretching it, but he definitely wants to slip under the radar.
On May 25 2012 07:24 marvellosity wrote: That doesn't really address of what I see as a pretty big inconsistency on his thought process on zelblade/zealos though
Me thinky zelblade scum. Me thinky zealos maybe scum. Me thinky zealos maybe bad town.
On a more serious note, it seems like the zelblade vote is losing traction and I don't want a repeat of day one fiasco, so
EPT
